Israel PM vows further Gaza campaign

[Seastallion]

I do believe a person could pull together 5 coherent points of comparison, CBR250. Nevertheless, of all the players in this sad affair there is actually only one side with a declared policy of annihilation, and that is not the Jews. Therefore, the assertion that the Jews have such ambitions should first challenge that their opponents do not- and they do! (You may not realize but your arguments, and others, have seriously challenged a few positions of mine for revising). Please proceed with the understanding I don't try to deceive or be misleading; I am not. Sometimes I miss something or appear to avoid. I do not. I am just not as smart as I think I am).

I'm a little confused. You say turning people who hold an anti-Israeli position in these arguments into Jew haters was intentional?

I've covered this on another thread and can not comment further until I read your reply.

I am unsure where you are going; really. I have just erased my response because my first point above actually states my point clearly and I would only be repeating it. I don't think i mentioned anything about "turning people."

There are people on this forum, as elsewhere, that have valid positions that differ from mine. While it is true that universally people can affirm a statement as there own but it was actually crafted in the media, opinion leaders, news, etc. This happens all the time. When someone who is antiisrael employs analogies of Israel to the holocaust, for example, this is a point that is peddled previously be people who really do hate jews and announce it. Example: minimizing the holocaust. Former Iranian president, etc. Associating Jewish actions today with the very crimes that were committed against Jews previously is not particularly new. Yet many of those who had previously offered up these comparisons were people of dubious character. So, while it is natural that these phrases, analogies, convictions merge with our own, and are hardly meaningful, when we are discussing such things as genocide, I do think they deserve closer inspection.

If one tries to read something really awful or libelous in my words it is really a reach. My mind actually does not think in terms of hatred and I have, overall, a real enjoyment and affection for TV, with particular regard for those who are not thinking as I am. This experience, even on this thread, has really enabled me to clarify my thoughts, and see points of view I had not considered before. So, if you are searching for a lever as to whether I deeply impugned my TV brothers and sisters, it is not there. I don't think like that and suggesting this would be a stretch. My point is a valid, observation about the nature of transpersonal ideas and how they spread, and are incorporated into our own. I don't know why I do but I labor to respond to you, but I do. I enjoy people who think differently.

Ask me pointedly. I will always state my point and hopefully admit when I err or offend.

You are not someone I want to offend or impugn. I think we are on different pages. The "sleight of hand" was talking about anti-Israeli people, and then calling them Jew haters by saying "earlier Jew haters". The implication, nay the direct correspondence, was today's anti_Israelis are Jew haters.

Lets drop this side track....I make the statement here as I did in the other thread; Anti-Israel does not necessarily equate to Jew hater.

[Seastallion]

On the other side of the coin, Israel has never stated such a goal. That does not make the goal non-existent.

Israel is more than capable of carrying out the goal, yet they don't. Hamas and Iran are indulging in wishful thinking for the time being.

Israel IS...look at any historical maps.

[arjunadawn]

You are not someone I want to offend or impugn. I think we are on different pages. The "sleight of hand" was talking about anti-Israeli people, and then calling them Jew haters by saying "earlier Jew haters". The implication, nay the direct correspondence, was today's anti_Israelis are Jew haters.

Lets drop this side track....I make the statement here as I did in the other thread; Anti-Israel does not necessarily equate to Jew hater.

Yea, and this is the point, isn't it? Even when folks with no real investment in the issue discuss this affair it even misleads or polarized here. We don't have the luxury of talking face to face but we go back and forth enough that we distill down each others position to pretty clear points- and still we bump heads. This is repeated throughout the world regarding this issue, and certainly in the levant.

I am unsure why i am so interested in the view points of others regarding this, but I am. Thank you.

[Ulysses G.]

On the other side of the coin, Israel has never stated such a goal. That does not make the goal non-existent.

Israel is more than capable of carrying out the goal, yet they don't. Hamas and Iran are indulging in wishful thinking for the time being.

Israel IS...

Not hardly.

Iran, and I'm guessing someone from Hamas has said things that have been interpreted to mean "a declared policy of annihilation"

[ABCer]

I get the distinct feeling that one major complaint against the Israelis is their superior military advantage over the Palestinians and that this war is being fought unfairly.

Palestinian supporters continually post casualty figures that show a great disparity between the two warring sides to prove their point.

They are correct that a huge disparity does exist in the casualty figures, but they have never come up with any solution to the problem. Let me offer some suggestions to alleviate this problem.

1. Israel should turn off Iron Dome for a minimum of six hours each day so the rockets sent "To Whom it may Concern" can land in populated areas, thus killing more Israelis and closing the death gap.

2. Israel should stop the naval blockade as has been suggested on this forum numerous times. This would enable Hamas to bring in larger, better and more deadly rockets from Iran that could be targeted on the civilian population during Iron Dome down times with better results.

3. Israel should permit the import in to Gaza of better mine tunneling equipment. This would make for faster tunnel digging and free up more teenagers so they could join the rioters and try to kill even more Israelis.

4. More heavy construction materials should be permitted entry into Gaza. What they have been importing is being used for the aforementioned tunnels and an increase in building materials would make the tunnels safer and they would be able to build even better bunkers for the Hamas leadership.

5. The Israeli Air Force should be limited in their bombing runs strictly to areas where the population density is fewer than 5 Palestinians per square kilometer. This limitation should be applied to Israeli artillery as well.

6. The rules of engagement (ROE) for the Israeli Army should be altered to state no return fire can be directed at Palestinian rioters until at least one (1) Israeli soldier has died as a result of wounds received from an unprovoked attack by the Palestinians.

7. Border crossings from Gaza to Israel should be opened and unmanned at least six hours daily to permit unfettered access to those Palestinians who wish to become suicide bombers and take Israelis out with them. After all, what good is a suicide bomber unless he takes out some innocent civilians? Without the civilians he is merely an inept bomb builder. The added advantage to opening the border would be that Hamas could then drive their own truck bombs directly into Tel Aviv, thereby narrowing the body count in their favor more rapidly.

These are simply some examples of actions that could be taken to make this battle take place on a level playing field.

After all, what's fair is fair. Right?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for some more serious thoughts. The above is written tongue in cheek to stress the ridiculous claims that Palestinians are somehow being unfairly treated.

Hamas initiates these attacks on Israel from densely populated urban areas in order for any retaliatory fire from the IDF to kill or injure as many civilians as possible. This is the reason they use hospitals, mosques, schools and UN facilities to fire from and for weapons storage.

If Hamas truly had the welfare of their population at heart, they would fire the rockets from some of that vacant land in Gaza that is not heavily populated. If you believe otherwise, you are sorely ill informed.

I am certain this post will draw vehement vitriol from those that favor Palestine but you should be aware I am in my 76th year on this earth, have been through a few wars myself and fear only God and my wife...not necessarily in that order.

Have at it...or reflect on your personal positions and see if you might need to alter them just a little.

War is not designed to be fair. That's why it's not called "boxing".

I understand black humor. I understand sarcasm and irony of your post.

What I do not understand is how Arabs (Palestinians) can complain about disparity figures in casualty numbers AND simultaneously demand 1,000 terrorists for each Israeli soldier.

It looks like the Arabs themselves undervalue their own trash.

Any other explanation?

[Seastallion]

Israel IS...

Not hardly.

Iran, and I'm guessing someone from Hamas has said things that have been interpreted to mean "a declared policy of annihilation"

The sooner someone can direct me how to put this irrational clown on ignore, the better.

[Ulysses G.]

We know. You already said that, but you are not doing a very good job of "ignoring" me.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[ABCer]

It is VERY common to target terrorist leaders and legal protections don't apply to them. Targeted killing is legitimate when employed against terrorists or combatants engaged in asymmetrical warfare

Well in that case you would certainly agree with the fact that it is legitimate to kill all Israelis right? They are terrorists and almost all of them are former and present combatants.

Jean Pierre Jacquot, my friend, judging by the wording and tone of your posts here, I get the feeling your hands are itching.

There is a problem though with killing Israelis today. The delightful years of little God fearing inhabitants of shtettles which were handed over to Gestapo by 'collabos' in France are gone.

I am afraid that itchy hands today do get in troubles people believing in 'legitimate killing of all Israelis' wherever they are.

Have a good look at today's Israelis. Whether they fight with or without good reasons is in your mind. But they fight well! That even you cannot deny.

Why not follow your heart and join in the dog fight?

[Seastallion]

It is VERY common to target terrorist leaders and legal protections don't apply to them. Targeted killing is legitimate when employed against terrorists or combatants engaged in asymmetrical warfare

Well in that case you would certainly agree with the fact that it is legitimate to kill all Israelis right? They are terrorists and almost all of them are former and present combatants.

Jean Pierre Jacquot, my friend, judging by the wording and tone of your posts here, I get the feeling your hands are itching.

There is a problem though with killing Israelis today. The delightful years of little God fearing inhabitants of shtettles which were handed over to Gestapo by 'collabos' in France are gone.

I am afraid that itchy hands today do get in troubles people believing in 'legitimate killing of all Israelis' wherever they are.

Have a good look at today's Israelis. Whether they fight with or without good reasons is in your mind. But they fight well! That even you cannot deny.

Why not follow your heart and join in the dog fight?

If by "fight well!" you mean use superior armaments to murder civilians, you have a morbid definition of ":well".

[ABCer]

It is VERY common to target terrorist leaders and legal protections don't apply to them. Targeted killing is legitimate when employed against terrorists or combatants engaged in asymmetrical warfare

Well in that case you would certainly agree with the fact that it is legitimate to kill all Israelis right? They are terrorists and almost all of them are former and present combatants.

Jean Pierre Jacquot, my friend, judging by the wording and tone of your posts here, I get the feeling your hands are itching.

There is a problem though with killing Israelis today. The delightful years of little God fearing inhabitants of shtettles which were handed over to Gestapo by 'collabos' in France are gone.

I am afraid that itchy hands today do get in troubles people believing in 'legitimate killing of all Israelis' wherever they are.

Have a good look at today's Israelis. Whether they fight with or without good reasons is in your mind. But they fight well! That even you cannot deny.

Why not follow your heart and join in the dog fight?

If by "fight well!" you mean use superior armaments to murder civilians, you have a morbid definition of ":well".

Seastallion,

I thought we are talking about war? In war the winner fights better. If you look back to 1947 to present day - Israel has kicked so many asses as no other 'Great Nation' on this Earth.

Which makes it one of the greatest. And its Army has proven itself too. Of course you do not like hearing that. Bring in the women and children factor.

Or are you heroically covering the body of your buddy? I was addressing this JPJ fellow with itchy hands from the French Legion. You think he needs a horse?

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas murders 18 more of their own. Savages!

Gaza gunmen killed 18 alleged spies for Israel on Friday, including seven who were lined up behind a mosque with bags over their heads and shot in front of hundreds of people. The killings came in response to Israel's deadly airstrike against three top Hamas military commanders.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hamas-kills-11-suspected-informers-israel-25080623

[chuckd]

We know. You already said that, but you are not doing a very good job of "ignoring" me.

UG:

Some people just aren't very bright.

I'd tell him how to do it but only if he promised to put me on "ignore" as well.

[Seastallion]

We know. You already said that, but you are not doing a very good job of "ignoring" me.

UG:

Some people just aren't very bright.

I'd tell him how to do it but only if he promised to put me on "ignore" as well.

Yes, some people are not very bright; I ignore them.

I won't put you on ignore, yet, notwithstanding what I just said. Sometimes it's amusing to hear the ramblings of an old man. They serve as a warning of what might happen to me in another 30 years if I don't maintain good brain health.

[Seastallion]

Jean Pierre Jacquot, my friend, judging by the wording and tone of your posts here, I get the feeling your hands are itching.

There is a problem though with killing Israelis today. The delightful years of little God fearing inhabitants of shtettles which were handed over to Gestapo by 'collabos' in France are gone.

I am afraid that itchy hands today do get in troubles people believing in 'legitimate killing of all Israelis' wherever they are.

Have a good look at today's Israelis. Whether they fight with or without good reasons is in your mind. But they fight well! That even you cannot deny.

Why not follow your heart and join in the dog fight?

If by "fight well!" you mean use superior armaments to murder civilians, you have a morbid definition of ":well".

Seastallion,

I thought we are talking about war? In war the winner fights better. If you look back to 1947 to present day - Israel has kicked so many asses as no other 'Great Nation' on this Earth.

Which makes it one of the greatest. And its Army has proven itself too. Of course you do not like hearing that. Bring in the women and children factor.

Or are you heroically covering the body of your buddy? I was addressing this JPJ fellow with itchy hands from the French Legion. You think he needs a horse?

As I said, your definition of "fight well" is morbid. Machiavellian.

[Scott]

Unless members stay on topic and stop with the inflammatory baiting, I can fix it so that you won't be able to respond to anyone for a while.

I tiresome as some people can be and as repetitive as many posts are, inflammatory remarks are against the forum rules. Even if the remarks are meant to be sarcastic.

Please stay on topic.

[CBR250]

I get the distinct feeling that one major complaint against the Israelis is their superior military advantage over the Palestinians and that this war is being fought unfairly.

Palestinian supporters continually post casualty figures that show a great disparity between the two warring sides to prove their point.

They are correct that a huge disparity does exist in the casualty figures, but they have never come up with any solution to the problem. Let me offer some suggestions to alleviate this problem.

1. Israel should turn off Iron Dome for a minimum of six hours each day so the rockets sent "To Whom it may Concern" can land in populated areas, thus killing more Israelis and closing the death gap.

2. Israel should stop the naval blockade as has been suggested on this forum numerous times. This would enable Hamas to bring in larger, better and more deadly rockets from Iran that could be targeted on the civilian population during Iron Dome down times with better results.

3. Israel should permit the import in to Gaza of better mine tunneling equipment. This would make for faster tunnel digging and free up more teenagers so they could join the rioters and try to kill even more Israelis.

4. More heavy construction materials should be permitted entry into Gaza. What they have been importing is being used for the aforementioned tunnels and an increase in building materials would make the tunnels safer and they would be able to build even better bunkers for the Hamas leadership.

5. The Israeli Air Force should be limited in their bombing runs strictly to areas where the population density is fewer than 5 Palestinians per square kilometer. This limitation should be applied to Israeli artillery as well.

6. The rules of engagement (ROE) for the Israeli Army should be altered to state no return fire can be directed at Palestinian rioters until at least one (1) Israeli soldier has died as a result of wounds received from an unprovoked attack by the Palestinians.

7. Border crossings from Gaza to Israel should be opened and unmanned at least six hours daily to permit unfettered access to those Palestinians who wish to become suicide bombers and take Israelis out with them. After all, what good is a suicide bomber unless he takes out some innocent civilians? Without the civilians he is merely an inept bomb builder. The added advantage to opening the border would be that Hamas could then drive their own truck bombs directly into Tel Aviv, thereby narrowing the body count in their favor more rapidly.

These are simply some examples of actions that could be taken to make this battle take place on a level playing field.

After all, what's fair is fair. Right?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for some more serious thoughts. The above is written tongue in cheek to stress the ridiculous claims that Palestinians are somehow being unfairly treated.

Hamas initiates these attacks on Israel from densely populated urban areas in order for any retaliatory fire from the IDF to kill or injure as many civilians as possible. This is the reason they use hospitals, mosques, schools and UN facilities to fire from and for weapons storage.

If Hamas truly had the welfare of their population at heart, they would fire the rockets from some of that vacant land in Gaza that is not heavily populated. If you believe otherwise, you are sorely ill informed.

I am certain this post will draw vehement vitriol from those that favor Palestine but you should be aware I am in my 76th year on this earth, have been through a few wars myself and fear only God and my wife...not necessarily in that order.

Have at it...or reflect on your personal positions and see if you might need to alter them just a little.

War is not designed to be fair. That's why it's not called "boxing".

You've got the wrong end of the stick, chuckd. Palestinian does not equal Hamas. Drawing attention to the subjugation and mistreatment and deaths inflicted on Palestinian civilians is not the same as supporting Hamas military objectives. Not many people that I can find on here are arguing that Hamas should be better armed or have more opportunities to kill more people. On the contrary, I think you will find that the majority of those who support the Palestinians are pretty much in the anti-war camp, and believe that the responsibility for stopping the fighting lies with the biggest kid on the block - Israel.

Plenty on here however seem quite pleased that Israel is letting loose the immense military capacity that the USA has so kindly supplied. They are joining those many Israelis who seem to have swallowed the hate diatribes of Netanyahu, Lieberman et al. A poll published by the Israel Democracy Institute found that only 6% of Israelis thought too much force had been used. There is a whole city in ruins. Hospitals, health clinics, roads, homes and schools destroyed. Hundreds of Palestinian women and children killed - often by disgustingly brutal modern weapons (check out what fletchette bombs do to the human body). Yet over 90% of Israelis are quite happy with the progress of the war. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/20/gaza-war-resumes-as-talks-break-down

And now they have you to join them in cheer-leading even more deaths. I would have thought that at 76 years of age - and having witnessed wars yourself - you would know better by now.

Edited August 23, 2014 by CBR250

[Ulysses G.]

I would have thought that at 76 years of age - and having witnessed wars yourself - you would know better by now.

He probably knows that some wars need to be fought and a war against a terrorist group that has sent multiple suicide bombers and thousand of rockets into Israel is one of them.

[CBR250]

Ah, Bibi Netanyahu, that great Israeli warmonger is at it again this morning. After the death of the 4 year old Israeli boy he said the IDF will "intensify" its attacks on Gaza. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098

There is nothing like a willingness to talk tough and cash in on people's grief to help in the polls, eh Bibi?

So, if Netanyahu is acting rationally, then we must accord Hamas the same rights as Netanyahu claims for Israel. Israelis should not then object if - after the deaths of so many young Gazan children - Hamas also intensifies its efforts. Maybe they should be firing tens of thousands of rockets and mortars each day at Ben Gurion and into the heart of Tel Aviv to ensure some parity with child deaths and weapon use? This would still not equal the firepower that Israel pours into Gaza each day. But at least they could claim that they had also "intensified" attacks to show they shared the stance and rationale of the Israeli government.

Edited August 23, 2014 by CBR250

[Ulysses G.]

There is nothing like a willingness to talk tough and cash in on people's grief to help in the polls, eh Bibi?

More like a response to the 168 rockets that Hamas fired yesterday. As long as Hamas continues the terrorist attacks, Israel will keep striking back.

Kudos Bibi for sending three terrorist leaders straight to hell.

[Thorgal]

I would have thought that at 76 years of age - and having witnessed wars yourself - you would know better by now.

He probably knows that some wars need to be fought and a war against a terrorist group that has sent multiple suicide bombers and thousand of rockets into Israel is one of them.

Playing children are now terrorist groups ?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=606_1407969908

Is this part of the campaign ?

Edited August 23, 2014 by Thorgal

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas is a terrorist group and they purposely conduct attacks on Israeli civilians while purposely hiding behind Palestinian civilians.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been deleted.

[Thorgal]

Hamas is a terrorist group and they purposely conduct attacks on Israeli civilians while purposely hiding behind Palestinian civilians. ]

Perhaps another terrorist member...

http://www.rocketrysouthcarolina.com/youtube_browser.php?do=show&vidid=EOAFnAL_lqY

What about the real Israeli public opinion even when a PM persists ?

Edited August 23, 2014 by Thorgal

[Pakboong]

For every thesis, there exists an antithesis.

[coma]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

[Thorgal]

For every thesis, there exists an antithesis.

...and the process would repeat itself until the desired outcome.

Out of the battle of the thesis and antithesis would come the synthesis...

[7by7]

I have used the example of the IRA before, that they were determined to destroy Northern Ireland, that they often deliberately targeted civilians.

They were not determined to "destroy" Northern Ireland. That is deceitful. They wanted some territory back.

Your ignorance of history and politics is showing.

The IRA did not "want some territory back," they wanted to force part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to leave the UK and be forced into becoming part of a foreign country; the Republic of Ireland. Thus destroying the province of Northern Ireland.

Against the wishes of the majority of people, Catholic and Protestant, living there.

As a result of the peace process, the IRA have changed their stance and now accept that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK until and unless the people of Northern Ireland decide otherwise. Though some hardliners in the Irish Republican movement have not accepted this.

Hamas have publicly amended their original statements and have publicly declared their acceptance of Israel as a state; though some hardliners have not accepted this.

They do, though, want the Palestinian territories illegally seized by Israel back.

[7by7]

Hamas murders 18 more of their own. Savages!

Gaza gunmen killed 18 alleged spies for Israel on Friday, including seven who were lined up behind a mosque with bags over their heads and shot in front of hundreds of people. The killings came in response to Israel's deadly airstrike against three top Hamas military commanders.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hamas-kills-11-suspected-informers-israel-25080623

A barbarous act, though doubt exists whether it was carried out under the direct orders of Hamas leaders or carried out by an extremist splinter group.

Roundly, and rightly, condemned by many, including

Palestinian Centre for Human Rights chairman Raji al-Surani demanded the Palestinian Authority and other armed factions "intervene to stop these extra-judicial executions, no matter what the reasons and motives are".

(source)

As I said, a barbarous act; as barbarous as bombing civilians and killing and maiming them in their thousands using the excuse that there may be Hamas rockets nearby.

[coma]

Ah, Bibi Netanyahu, that great Israeli warmonger is at it again this morning. After the death of the 4 year old Israeli boy he said the IDF will "intensify" its attacks on Gaza. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098

There is nothing like a willingness to talk tough and cash in on people's grief to help in the polls, eh Bibi?

So, if Netanyahu is acting rationally, then we must accord Hamas the same rights as Netanyahu claims for Israel. Israelis should not then object if - after the deaths of so many young Gazan children - Hamas also intensifies its efforts. Maybe they should be firing tens of thousands of rockets and mortars each day at Ben Gurion and into the heart of Tel Aviv to ensure some parity with child deaths and weapon use? This would still not equal the firepower that Israel pours into Gaza each day. But at least they could claim that they had also "intensified" attacks to show they shared the stance and rationale of the Israeli government.

The loser is a madman, hell bent on avenging his brothers death at the hands of arab freedom fighters.

[Ulysses G.]

I have used the example of the IRA before, that they were determined to destroy Northern Ireland, that they often deliberately targeted civilians.

They were not determined to "destroy" Northern Ireland. That is deceitful. They wanted some territory back.

Your ignorance of history and politics is showing.

The IRA did not "want some territory back," they wanted to force part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to leave the UK and be forced into becoming part of a foreign country; the Republic of Ireland. Thus destroying the province of Northern Ireland.

Despite all your dramatics, you have just repeated what I said, they wanted some territory back.

They were not calling for the genocide of the Jewish people as Hamas does in their charter. There are a lot of differences between the two conflicts.

"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.'"(Article 7)