Pump Problems

[wallacern]

Plumbing help please.

Just moved to the LOS and getting the finishing touches done on the house.

We have the standard steel water tank with a pump to supply pressure to the house.

The pump cycles on and off about every 20 seconds with no water turned on in the house.

I don't see any water leaks. The pipe from the pump to the house is under a newly cemented and tiled area behind the house. I think it is right next to the septic tank.

I suspect:

1. a leak in the pipe from the pump to the house

2. a problem with the pump.

Is there a way to check the pump before I start tearing up the nice new cement and tile?

Thanks,

Mike

[lopburi3]

I would install a valve between the pump and house (output side of pump) and turn it off. If pump still cycles there is a problem - if not there is a leak somewhere. But first open all toilets and make sure none are drawing water (overflow) or turn off at wall if there is a valve (although every 20 seconds sounds like a pump problem if you do not see any leaks). The pump was opened and primed right?

[penzman]

There may not be enough air pressure in the small air tank. Remove cap and add whatever pressure is required with a bicycle pump. Mine does it every now and then.

[Crossy]

There may not be enough air pressure in the small air tank. Remove cap and add whatever pressure is required with a bicycle pump. Mine does it every now and then.

A useful website related to water pump problems

http://www.inspect-ny.com/water/watertank.htm

[penzman]

If you do pump air in, you may have to do it a few times over until you can take the pump hose off the valve quick enough to leave air in the tank. Always takes me a few trys. Pump until you fell reasonable resistance from the bicycle pump. Be sure to replace the small cap on the valve.

[wallacern]

If you do pump air in, you may have to do it a few times over until you can take the pump hose off the valve quick enough to leave air in the tank. Always takes me a few trys. Pump until you fell reasonable resistance from the bicycle pump. Be sure to replace the small cap on the valve.

[wallacern]

If you do pump air in, you may have to do it a few times over until you can take the pump hose off the valve quick enough to leave air in the tank. Always takes me a few trys. Pump until you fell reasonable resistance from the bicycle pump. Be sure to replace the small cap on the valve.

I haven't quite figured out how to reply to a post. Hope this does it.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will look at all of them.

Thanks also for the web site address. I will look at it as soon as I get this reply finished.

Thanks,

mike

Edited July 11, 2006 by wallacern

[wallacern]

If you do pump air in, you may have to do it a few times over until you can take the pump hose off the valve quick enough to leave air in the tank. Always takes me a few trys. Pump until you fell reasonable resistance from the bicycle pump. Be sure to replace the small cap on the valve.

Checked things out today. Unable to find any leaks in toilets or anywhere else.

Drained the pump and then restarted it. That didn't help.

Unable to locate a valve to add air. This pump is a Mitsubishi WP255. I took the top off but did not find anything that looked adjustable.

Will try to get a plumber to look at things and possibly add a shut off valve in the output line to isolate the pump. Only have about 6 inches of pipe to work with before it takes a 90 degree down turn and dissapears into the concrete.

That web site has very good info.

Thanks.

Mike

[billd766]

If you do pump air in, you may have to do it a few times over until you can take the pump hose off the valve quick enough to leave air in the tank. Always takes me a few trys. Pump until you fell reasonable resistance from the bicycle pump. Be sure to replace the small cap on the valve.

Checked things out today. Unable to find any leaks in toilets or anywhere else.

Drained the pump and then restarted it. That didn't help.

Unable to locate a valve to add air. This pump is a Mitsubishi WP255. I took the top off but did not find anything that looked adjustable.

Will try to get a plumber to look at things and possibly add a shut off valve in the output line to isolate the pump. Only have about 6 inches of pipe to work with before it takes a 90 degree down turn and dissapears into the concrete.

That web site has very good info.

Thanks.

Mike

I live up country and I have a Mitsubishi WP 205 and you are correct as there are no adjustable parts.

If it is cycling then the best way to check it is to put an inline tap before it enters your house. If your pump is not bolted down then you can make an ugly bit of longer piping and put the tap in but it sounds to me that you have a leak somewhere that you cannot see. The big problem is where the leak may be. Behind a wall perhaps? Have a feel around for damp patches or bad joints where the internal pipes feed the taps etc. If you are lucky it wil be easy, if not......

[JAS21]

If you do pump air in, you may have to do it a few times over until you can take the pump hose off the valve quick enough to leave air in the tank. Always takes me a few trys. Pump until you fell reasonable resistance from the bicycle pump. Be sure to replace the small cap on the valve.

Checked things out today. Unable to find any leaks in toilets or anywhere else.

Drained the pump and then restarted it. That didn't help.

Unable to locate a valve to add air. This pump is a Mitsubishi WP255. I took the top off but did not find anything that looked adjustable.

Will try to get a plumber to look at things and possibly add a shut off valve in the output line to isolate the pump. Only have about 6 inches of pipe to work with before it takes a 90 degree down turn and dissapears into the concrete.

That web site has very good info.

Thanks.

Mike

I live up country and I have a Mitsubishi WP 205 and you are correct as there are no adjustable parts.

If it is cycling then the best way to check it is to put an inline tap before it enters your house. If your pump is not bolted down then you can make an ugly bit of longer piping and put the tap in but it sounds to me that you have a leak somewhere that you cannot see. The big problem is where the leak may be. Behind a wall perhaps? Have a feel around for damp patches or bad joints where the internal pipes feed the taps etc. If you are lucky it wil be easy, if not......

To give yourself some pipework to play with..cut the discharge pipe where it goes into the ground but leaving at least enough pipe to put a 90 deg bend to make the pipe vertical and then make this as long as u like..do the same on the pump discharge and then you can run the pipe where you like...put a v'/v in or anything. You can get various bends..not only 90degree..Home Pro do 45s.

Although the pump is not servicable, you can get a new pressure switch and also just the pump.

Altering pipework is not rocket science...when the guys brought our washing m/c if I hadn't stopped them they would have made a right hash of connecting it in. My experience with almost all Thai workers is that they need supervision..they are ok but often have strange idears.

[wallacern]

If you do pump air in, you may have to do it a few times over until you can take the pump hose off the valve quick enough to leave air in the tank. Always takes me a few trys. Pump until you fell reasonable resistance from the bicycle pump. Be sure to replace the small cap on the valve.

Checked things out today. Unable to find any leaks in toilets or anywhere else.

Drained the pump and then restarted it. That didn't help.

Unable to locate a valve to add air. This pump is a Mitsubishi WP255. I took the top off but did not find anything that looked adjustable.

Will try to get a plumber to look at things and possibly add a shut off valve in the output line to isolate the pump. Only have about 6 inches of pipe to work with before it takes a 90 degree down turn and dissapears into the concrete.

That web site has very good info.

Thanks.

Mike

I live up country and I have a Mitsubishi WP 205 and you are correct as there are no adjustable parts.

If it is cycling then the best way to check it is to put an inline tap before it enters your house. If your pump is not bolted down then you can make an ugly bit of longer piping and put the tap in but it sounds to me that you have a leak somewhere that you cannot see. The big problem is where the leak may be. Behind a wall perhaps? Have a feel around for damp patches or bad joints where the internal pipes feed the taps etc. If you are lucky it wil be easy, if not......

To give yourself some pipework to play with..cut the discharge pipe where it goes into the ground but leaving at least enough pipe to put a 90 deg bend to make the pipe vertical and then make this as long as u like..do the same on the pump discharge and then you can run the pipe where you like...put a v'/v in or anything. You can get various bends..not only 90degree..Home Pro do 45s.

Although the pump is not servicable, you can get a new pressure switch and also just the pump.

Altering pipework is not rocket science...when the guys brought our washing m/c if I hadn't stopped them they would have made a right hash of connecting it in. My experience with almost all Thai workers is that they need supervision..they are ok but often have strange idears.

I will work on making the pump output pipe long enough to place a shut off valve and have a way to isolate the pump.

Funny that you mention the washing machine installation. One was installed in our house while we were away and it is pretty funny. I think the input water will work but they used about 5 too many fittings. The drain output needs to be reworked. The drain pipe is a horizontal piece sticking out of the wall about 1 inch. The installers just used plastic tape to connect the washing machine drain hose to the horizontal drain pipe. Maybe it would last for one or two loads of washing before leaking all over the kitcen floor?

Thanks to all for the advice. I can't wait to start looking at the wiring. I can't locate any ground rods around the house. Will probably have to drill holes through the driveway and patio and pound in a couple of rods. With my luck I will hit a water line!

Mike

[wallacern]

Finally found a leak in the house. Wet spot on the kitchen ceiling. Upstairs bathroom just above.

Had a plumber come in today. He cut a hole in the kitchen ceiling and sure enough water was leaking down a pipe. About one drop a second.

Took all day to dig up the bathroom floor and part of the wall to replace pipe and get the leak fixed.

Turned on the pump AND it still runs most of the time.

Had the plumber install a valve on the pump output to isolate the pump. The pump is OK.

Plumber says we either start digging up the new driveway and patio (a lot of concrete and tile)

or we run new pipe on the outside of the house to the kitchen and bathrooms.

I think I will end up with pipe running on the outside of the house as I don't want to destroy the new driveway and patio.

Comments?

Thanks,

Mike

[lopburi3]

Run it outside - should only take a few hours and if they keep it low and paint will not look bad. They have plastic clips that the pipe can snap into now so no screws in view so not bad at all.

[chownah]

If you don't want to have pipes in a high visibility area then you can run them around the perimeter of your property to a place of lower visibility....just use oversized pipe to reduce the flow friction....pipe is really cheap even if you get the BIG stuff.....just a thought. Also...you could go overhead with the pipe but most people think this is crazy...although I have seen a couple of installations where this was used and it did keep the pipes out of view.

[peterjackson]

Hey

A device I find absolutely invaluable is a Cycle Stop Valve which stops the pump cycling whilst water is being drawn. This will make the pump last many years longer than without one.

They are very easy to fit and adjust. I don't know how available they are in Thailand, but here is a link to a place that I buy all my CSV's from... Cycle Stop Valves

I use them both on my properties that have Irrigation only wells and the properties that have Wells for Irrigation and Household Supply.

Regards

Peter

[chownah]

Cycle stop valves? Never heard of them. How do they work?

[Beachbunny]

There may not be enough air pressure in the small air tank. Remove cap and add whatever pressure is required with a bicycle pump. Mine does it every now and then.

A useful website related to water pump problems

http://www.inspect-ny.com/water/watertank.htm

good link crossy.....and exactly what the service center here in thailand told my husband. They did say the tank should be about 50/50 air and water.......they told us to turn off the water, drain the tank, add air, then water.

beachbunny

[Khutan]

Do you know where in Thailand I can buy a CSV ?

It seems to be what I need for my setup.

[peterjackson]

Hey

Rather than me trying to explain how the CSV works, just do a google search and I am sure will be able to read many articles on them.

Or go to CSV Info.

Kind regards

Peter

[h90]

much fun with the wiring....

I have experience with that, more experience than I ever wanted to get.

My best experience is using motorbike taxis for work, because you can tell them how you want it and they do it. While the "specialists" sabotage your ideas because something like ground rods are useless as he is doing his job 10 years, never used them and everywhere the light is working.....

As well if in Farangistan grandmum gets an electric shock and dies, we try to find someone who is wrong. Here it is bad luck....

If you do pump air in, you may have to do it a few times over until you can take the pump hose off the valve quick enough to leave air in the tank. Always takes me a few trys. Pump until you fell reasonable resistance from the bicycle pump. Be sure to replace the small cap on the valve.

Checked things out today. Unable to find any leaks in toilets or anywhere else.

Drained the pump and then restarted it. That didn't help.

Unable to locate a valve to add air. This pump is a Mitsubishi WP255. I took the top off but did not find anything that looked adjustable.

Will try to get a plumber to look at things and possibly add a shut off valve in the output line to isolate the pump. Only have about 6 inches of pipe to work with before it takes a 90 degree down turn and dissapears into the concrete.

That web site has very good info.

Thanks.

Mike

I live up country and I have a Mitsubishi WP 205 and you are correct as there are no adjustable parts.

If it is cycling then the best way to check it is to put an inline tap before it enters your house. If your pump is not bolted down then you can make an ugly bit of longer piping and put the tap in but it sounds to me that you have a leak somewhere that you cannot see. The big problem is where the leak may be. Behind a wall perhaps? Have a feel around for damp patches or bad joints where the internal pipes feed the taps etc. If you are lucky it wil be easy, if not......

To give yourself some pipework to play with..cut the discharge pipe where it goes into the ground but leaving at least enough pipe to put a 90 deg bend to make the pipe vertical and then make this as long as u like..do the same on the pump discharge and then you can run the pipe where you like...put a v'/v in or anything. You can get various bends..not only 90degree..Home Pro do 45s.

Although the pump is not servicable, you can get a new pressure switch and also just the pump.

Altering pipework is not rocket science...when the guys brought our washing m/c if I hadn't stopped them they would have made a right hash of connecting it in. My experience with almost all Thai workers is that they need supervision..they are ok but often have strange idears.

I will work on making the pump output pipe long enough to place a shut off valve and have a way to isolate the pump.

Funny that you mention the washing machine installation. One was installed in our house while we were away and it is pretty funny. I think the input water will work but they used about 5 too many fittings. The drain output needs to be reworked. The drain pipe is a horizontal piece sticking out of the wall about 1 inch. The installers just used plastic tape to connect the washing machine drain hose to the horizontal drain pipe. Maybe it would last for one or two loads of washing before leaking all over the kitcen floor?

Thanks to all for the advice. I can't wait to start looking at the wiring. I can't locate any ground rods around the house. Will probably have to drill holes through the driveway and patio and pound in a couple of rods. With my luck I will hit a water line!

Mike

[chownah]

Hey

Rather than me trying to explain how the CSV works, just do a google search and I am sure will be able to read many articles on them.

Or go to CSV Info.

Kind regards

Peter

I did go out an try to see how they work but they seem to always sort of dance around how they work and never seem to explain it. They bring up some strange comparisons like comparing efficiencies to two speed pumps...which I have never seen in the real world so why in the heck are they comparing this thing to two speed pumps? To me it seems like a scam but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt for now while I ask anyone if they know how these things work or where exactly I can find an explanation. When I go out to the web sites they way they show these things installed does not make sense to me that they could possibly do what I think it has been said that they do....but I'm open to learning about them so if anyone could help me clear up my confusion I would really appreciate it.....I'm assuming it is not rocket science and understanding these things is well with our abilities here on this forum.

The only thing that I can think of that would allow a pump to run continuously even while only a small volume of water was being used would be a pressure valve in a bypass loop that simply returned back to the water tank....but this does not seem to be what is shown on the web sites. The disadvantage of this system (pressure valve in bypass loop) is that it would consume alot of electricity because all of the time you were drawing water...even at a low volume...your pump would be working at full capacity forcing water throught the bypass loop...sort of a big waste of electricity in my estimation...but I'm willing to learn where I'm wrong here..if I am wrong.

Chownah

[chownah]

Well I went out and found some more links for the cycle stop valve and found:

A cycle stop valve goes between the pump and the pressure tank.

A cycle stop valve is a pressure control valve and it maintains a constant pressure on its supply side regardless of what volume is flowing (within certain limits I think).

A cycle stop valve does this by restricting flow so that it is just adequate to maintain pressure on its supply side.

The restriction in flow causes the pump to work against a higher pressure and thus consumes more electric power.

A cycle stop valve will extend pump life but increase power consumption.

A cycle stop valve is a really good thing for large sprinkler irrigation systems where a certain pattern of sprinklers is established and proper coverage is obtained at one pressure only so it is important for that pressure to be maintained.

As to whether you would actually save money in a properly operating domestic system by adding a cycle stop valve is doubtful in my opinion... but I have seen no data..... Consider a toilet tank filling slowly....the pump would be working at full speed constantly while the toilet tank is filling I guess.

In my pumping unit which contains the pump and the tank it would be very difficult or next to impossible to install a cycle stop valve since the tube connecting the pump to the tank is difficult to access.

Edited July 23, 2006 by chownah