Netanyahu declares 'victory' in Gaza

[Thorgal]

I don't doubt everyone's DNA is mixed; or a lot anyway.

You're avoiding my previous question and the probabilty that Palestinian Arabs - Muslims, Christians, Druze and also Samaritan- with Jewish roots were killed or survived in the conflicts from IDF.

Israeli politicians and scientist are well aware of that both nations are culturaly and etnicaly linked to each other.

Claiming of victory on a religious separation war is more correct.

[Ulysses G.]

Post edited to indicate points of contention:

1. .... FEAR of being mass murdered based on actual evidence of Palestinian desire to do exactly that.

2. A powerful Palestinian state with intentions to win all of Jewish Israel could potentially do that. ...

3. So Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist in words and actions is something that actually could move things forward ... easier said than done though of course.

But Netanyahu isn't Israel and Israel still IS a Jewish state. People on both sides shouldn't stop working for a two state solution .....

Where is the evidence that Palestinians want to mass murder Jews? Just to help you along - Hamas is not Palestine. Fatah is not even Palestine.

Hamas is part of the government of the Palestinians and it calls for genocide in its charter. The other part are Fatah, who cheered on the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers. Does that give you a hint of what they would do if given half a chance?

[RickBradford]

You look closely at the history of ANY country in the Middle East, and you'll see a long littany of switched alliances and allegiances which go back several thousand years.

And continue to this day, it seems. This article suggests that common interests bind Israel-Egypt-Saudi Arabia (anti-Hamas and Islamic State), and that they are opposed by Qatar and Turkey.

The article is interesting -- whether it is accurate I leave to those better qualified to discuss.

http://carolineglick.com/understanding-the-israeli-egyptian-saudi-alliance/

[CBR250]

Edited for the sake of brevity.

You look closely at the history of ANY country in the Middle East, and you'll see a long littany of switched alliances and allegiances which go back several thousand years. Can you guess what the common thread is? It's war and power plays. Not one country in the M.East has a history without wars and power plays. Look up the Assyrians or Babylonians, and you can find out about just a couple of the many eras in M.East history when boundaries and alliances changed year by year.

Note: it's a good thing the Israelis are cool headed militarily. If they had just a small portion of the Palestinians' hot-headedness, they would forcibly move them off Gaza and the West Bank.

Yes, but Israel has NOT been there for thousands of years. It has been there for an historical blink of an eye. Only since 1948, when, as Jewish historian Professor Ilan Pappe notes, the Jews "ethnically cleansed" 900,000 Palestinians.

Israel has no choice but to be cool headed militarily. Israel does treat US leaders with contempt (most recently John Kerry and President Obama), but they are careful not to push too far. If Israel displayed a bit too much "hot-headedness", I suspect that the arms flow from the USA would rapidly diminish. Would not be so easy to extend the bully role without substantial back-up from the US.

[Ulysses G.]

Edited for the sake of brevity.

You look closely at the history of ANY country in the Middle East, and you'll see a long littany of switched alliances and allegiances which go back several thousand years. Can you guess what the common thread is? It's war and power plays. Not one country in the M.East has a history without wars and power plays. Look up the Assyrians or Babylonians, and you can find out about just a couple of the many eras in M.East history when boundaries and alliances changed year by year.

Note: it's a good thing the Israelis are cool headed militarily. If they had just a small portion of the Palestinians' hot-headedness, they would forcibly move them off Gaza and the West Bank.

Yes, but Israel has NOT been there for thousands of years.

The Jewish people HAVE been there for thousand of years and did not declare their own country until forced to by Arab attacks.

It is not surprising that the usual suspects are enthralled with Ilan Pappe and like to quote him. This dishonest charlatan stated that "facts are irrelevant" to him and that his work is all about his far-left ideology:

"Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers,"

The Israel-bashers love to quote a few Benny Morris paragraphs (that were taken out of context). This is what he had to say about Pappe:

"Unfortunately much of what Pappe tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. . . . This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. . . . The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappe's historical methodology and his political proclivities . . .For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable." (New Republic, March 22, 2004)

[Thorgal]

Post edited to indicate points of contention:

1. .... FEAR of being mass murdered based on actual evidence of Palestinian desire to do exactly that.

2. A powerful Palestinian state with intentions to win all of Jewish Israel could potentially do that. ...

3. So Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist in words and actions is something that actually could move things forward ... easier said than done though of course.

But Netanyahu isn't Israel and Israel still IS a Jewish state. People on both sides shouldn't stop working for a two state solution .....

Where is the evidence that Palestinians want to mass murder Jews? Just to help you along - Hamas is not Palestine. Fatah is not even Palestine.

Hamas is part of the government of the Palestinians and it calls for genocide in its charter. The other part are Fatah, who cheered on the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers. Does that give you a hint of what they would do if given half a chance?

Pure character assassination.

Hamas never started a genocide. Did they do it ? No.

Fatah never received corroborating evidence for the killing of the 3 Israeli boys. Did they claim responsibility in this tragedy ? Did they commited the crime ? No and No !

Claiming victory with those allegations is not fair to cover bombing innocent civilians.

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas never started a genocide. Did they do it ? No.

Not through lack of trying. Suicide bombers and rockets shot at civilians over many years prove that.

The Israelis have defended themselves very well, while Hamas have murdered their own people and encouraged them to kill themselves.

The fact that Hamas have failed at genocide - and pretty much everything else - does not change the fact that that is what they hope for.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[arjunadawn]

I don't doubt everyone's DNA is mixed; or a lot anyway.

You're avoiding my previous question and the probabilty that Palestinian Arabs - Muslims, Christians, Druze and also Samaritan- with Jewish roots were killed or survived in the conflicts from IDF.

Israeli politicians and scientist are well aware of that both nations are culturaly and etnicaly linked to each other.

Claiming of victory on a religious separation war is more correct.

I don't avoid. I defend, admit, or concede I don't know. I'm having trouble with iPad. Multiple deletes or edits just to post. A lot lost. Even last post had to be cut to DNA comment. I frankly don't recall your question now. Give me benefit of doubt; I never intentionally avoid a difficult or other point. Please bounce this back again with question. Thank you. Edited August 29, 2014 by arjunadawn

[Thorgal]

Hamas never started a genocide. Did they do it ? No.

Not through lack of trying. Suicide bombers and rockets shot at civilians over many years prove that.

The Israelis have defended themselves very well, while Hamas have murdered their own people and encouraged them to kill themselves.

The fact that Hamas have failed at genocide - and pretty much everything else - does not change the fact that that is what they hope for.

Your false projection is missing in this accurate list.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/HistoryJewishPersecution/

Note : only one expulsion/persecution in Holy Land in 325 CE.

OP informs us that Israel claims victory.

Nobody claimed that operation Protective Edge and other IDF operations were engaged to stop 'your' Palestinian genocide on Israeli civilians and military targets.

Nice Hasbara atempt.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Thorgal

[Loptr]

Funny how Bibi is taking a chapter from the western media playbook... Just because you claim "victory" doesn't make it so, no matter how many times you repeat the lie...

[Thorgal]

Anti-Zionists actively oppose the existence of Israel, the nation state homeland of the Jewish people. You can't really get more anti-Jewish people than that, mate.

Where does it say Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people? Before you refer me to God, please realize that we live by the laws of man, not of YOUR God.

I am not going down this dark hole with you.

But you have confirmed my perception, as an anti-Zionist, you don't accept that the state of Israel ever existed.

Flavius Josephus; Antiquities (of the Jews)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews

This is history, not biblical. He wrote from Rome, as a member of the House of Falvius. Therefore, whatever notes he has made must be seen in the light of historiography- likely true!

Any other questions?

How many Palestinians in Gaza are descendants from Jews ?

Genetic analasys suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the Southern Levant whose core may reach back to the prehistoric times.

A study of high resolution haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Israeli Jews and Palestinian Muslim Arabs belonged to the same chromosome pool.

Since the times of Muslim conquest in the 7th century, relogious conversions have resulted in Palestinians being predominantly Sunni Muslim by religious affiliation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

@ Arjunadawn : no problem, got the same problem with my iPad.

Cheers

Others are also welcome.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Thorgal

[arjunadawn]

Hamas never started a genocide. Did they do it ? No.

Not through lack of trying. Suicide bombers and rockets shot at civilians over many years prove that.

The Israelis have defended themselves very well, while Hamas have murdered their own people and encouraged them to kill themselves.

The fact that Hamas have failed at genocide - and pretty much everything else - does not change the fact that that is what they hope for.

What an odd thing to say, "Hamas never started a genocide." Though they consistently declare they want the death of all Jews they're not having accomplished this yet you thus gloss over their stayed goals and declare Hamas never started genocide. Because something is simply not possible you cannot therefore conclude, irrespective of their repeated stated intention, that Hamas doesn't seek genocide.

Hamas argues, very effectively, in their opinion, that furthermore it's the duty of the citizens of gaza to all die in martyrdom, if necessary, in pursuit if their aims. Therefore, it's not really just the Jews this wretched outfit seeks to harm. (Links posted earlier).

[Thorgal]

Hamas never started a genocide. Did they do it ? No.

Not through lack of trying. Suicide bombers and rockets shot at civilians over many years prove that.

The Israelis have defended themselves very well, while Hamas have murdered their own people and encouraged them to kill themselves.

The fact that Hamas have failed at genocide - and pretty much everything else - does not change the fact that that is what they hope for.

What an odd thing to say, "Hamas never started a genocide." Though they consistently declare they want the death of all Jews they're not having accomplished this yet you thus gloss over their stayed goals and declare Hamas never started genocide. Because something is simply not possible you cannot therefore conclude, irrespective of their repeated stated intention, that Hamas doesn't seek genocide.

Hamas argues, very effectively, in their opinion, that furthermore it's the duty of the citizens of gaza to all die in martyrdom, if necessary, in pursuit if their aims. Therefore, it's not really just the Jews this wretched outfit seeks to harm. (Links posted earlier).

After claiming victory on the Gazans you put "Attempted Murder" on the same level as "Murder conviction without a body"...

Sounds like Israeli Military Law...

[arjunadawn]

Hamas never started a genocide. Did they do it ? No.

Not through lack of trying. Suicide bombers and rockets shot at civilians over many years prove that.

The Israelis have defended themselves very well, while Hamas have murdered their own people and encouraged them to kill themselves.

The fact that Hamas have failed at genocide - and pretty much everything else - does not change the fact that that is what they hope for.

What an odd thing to say, "Hamas never started a genocide." Though they consistently declare they want the death of all Jews they're not having accomplished this yet you thus gloss over their stayed goals and declare Hamas never started genocide. Because something is simply not possible you cannot therefore conclude, irrespective of their repeated stated intention, that Hamas doesn't seek genocide.

Hamas argues, very effectively, in their opinion, that furthermore it's the duty of the citizens of gaza to all die in martyrdom, if necessary, in pursuit if their aims. Therefore, it's not really just the Jews this wretched outfit seeks to harm. (Links posted earlier).

After claiming victory on the Gazans you put "Attempted Murder" on the same level as "Murder conviction without a body"...

Sounds like Israeli Military Law...

No, Thorgal, not my point. Brother (I assume), my background is pretty peculiar in that 1/2 of the people I know professionally not only feel strongly opposed to me, but live[d] work in this area. The other 1/2 tend to think like me. Our discussions reflect exactly what's going on in TV. Example: it was a good friend of mine who went in to get Arafat out during the siege while holed up in his compound, then to the church of the nativity. This was US Diplomatic Security Service. US State and to a less extent DSS (DSS is more apolitical as a subordinate) is populated with Palestinian supporters. I am well aware what is happening on both sides and reserve the right to modify my positions.

In regard to "victory" claims, as I've noted someone posted earlier, all sides in war claim victory. It boosts your team's confidence and undermines opposition. Nothing new here. I hardly think Israel has a victory, though. Unless there was other "machinery" Israel addressed by this conflict, or was stalling for time. I think Hamas had a greater victory as public perception reached fever pitch against Israel. As such new perceptions form in the younger population of the social media age these views will linger a long time.

(I'll give one totally invented scenario from my head as to what I mean. I cannot fathom why Israel did this in the face of such overwhelming public opinion. However, if there were considerable munitions present, and Israel was considering an Iranian strike, it would be of paramount importance to mitigate the rear guard threat).

[dexterm]

Israel NEVER demanded that those on the other side of the negotiating table recognize Israel as a "Jewish state"

With Egypt and Jordan, the conflict was over the occupied territories of 1967. With the Palestinians it is still over 1948. The Palestinians need to recognize Israel as it truly is, before there can be permanent peace.

The PA and all Arab countries have agreed to recognize Israel within its 1967 borders.

More of your usual dishonesty. Hamas refuses to and it can not be done without them. The other parties can pretend all they want as there is no deal without Hamas and everyone knows it.

So when countries and the PA say yes to recognition of Israel within 67 borders you say but they don’t really mean it...which at least is an improvement on your previous dishonest statements that no Arab country has said it will recognize Israel. Well, hopefully you have not chosen a career in the diplomatic service.

You beg the question “there is no deal without Hamas and everyone knows it.” Says who?...says only you. Israel did separate deals with Egypt and Jordan.

Hamas has agreed an indefinite truce with Israel provided it recognizes a Palestinian state within the 67 borders. When peace takes hold, extremists on both sides will be sidelined.

[Jingthing]

We probably agree Netanyahu doesn't really want a two state solution. He's a politician and he's reflecting his voters. On the other side ... big problems too, Gaza ruled by a Hamas that is transparently interested in winning ALL of Israel away from the Jews. WHY are most Israelis OK with a status quo and no real two state solution? Before the usual greedy Zionists / land grabber memes consider a more fundamental reason ... yes most Israelis are already comfortable enough with the status quo but also FEAR of being mass murdered based on actual evidence of Palestinian desire to do exactly that.

A powerful Palestinian state with intentions to win all of Jewish Israel could potentially do that. So if Israelis are afraid of that and want to prevent that, don't be too surprised or judgmental. Unless you think national suicide is an admirable trait. So Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist in words and actions is something that actually could move things forward ... easier said than done though of course.

But Netanyahu isn't Israel and Israel still IS a Jewish state. People on both sides shouldn't stop working for a two state solution because that's probably the best or even only hope. Being a supporter of Israel's right to exist and defend itself is not the same thing as supporting every Israeli government policy or politician.

Does the current conflict in Gaza just sort of put on hold move things closer to a two state solution? It doesn't appear so but some hope is being expressed that Israel now has more (though closeted) allies in the Arab world in opposition to terrorist Hamas, there might just be an opportunity from this.

Firstly JT, a sincere bravo from me. You do appear to be moderating your stance in the face of considerable pressure. Lesser men will remain pig-headededly stubborn.

I will thus refrain from petty "point scoring" and address you as a fellow debater. You deserve that now. (We all should, but of course emotions win us over).

Let me address your first 2 sentences; " We probably agree Netanyahu doesn't really want a two state solution. He's a politician and he's reflecting his voters. " . Yes we, at least you and I, do agree there. Why is that reasoning any different from "We agree Hamas doesn't want a 2 state solution. They're ideologists and reflect their ideologies"?

Can you deny (Strike that. See, I'm trying to revise my language) How do you feel about the idea that the "greedy Zionist land grabber memes" have foundation, in the face of how the borders have changed in Israel's favour several times since 1948, in light of the documented visions and statements of the leaders of the Zionist Movement, by the fact of the settlements, the evictions of Palestinians from East Jerusalem, etc (and that's quite an etc)? Surely anyone observing could be forgiven for thinking that the Zionist Movement is trying to expand the land of the state of Israel as established in 1948, and expanding it by quite violent and forceful means. How do you feel about it in light of our agreed opinion that Netanyahu does not want a 2 state solution?

Some points:

-- I have not changed my position under pressure. To suggest that is condescending to me. You just don't happen to know my POV which I have posted about for years here. Also I have been a supporter for a two state solution since I was a little boy. I just have a lot LESS hope about that now, given how things have evolved.

-- I have never been a big fan of Netanyahu or the Israeli right wing but keep in mind there are Israelis to the right of Netanyahu.

-- Your rhetoric about the "Zionist" movement I think is bizarre and off base. Zionism is realized for decades now in the STATE OF ISRAEL. Israel like any country, democratic or not, and it is relatively democratic has politics. Israeli politics have gone more right wing. The right wing there has been behind the west bank settlements and Israeli politics allows that to continue to happen. There is no doubt that the existence of so many west bank settlements make a two state solution harder to actually bring about, so many Israelis settled there now. That is one of the reasons for my extreme pessimism. If you are trying to get me to say the west bank settlement movement was wrong and retards any hope of a two state solution, DUH, again if you knew my posting history, I wouldn't have to repeat it. I do see the need for Israel to be assured SECURITY in the event of a two state solution though ... and the starting point now for better or worse does include settlements. I am also much more tolerant of Israeli settlements near JERUSALEM for obvious reasons.

As far as the "wall" -- there was a reason for that. Suicide bombers. It's not a nice solution but ... justified.

-- If I have come off as being a Netanyahu fan during this recent flareup with Gaza, I guess I can understand that. I think the military conflict was justified given the rockets and tunnels. I am not saying every bomb dropped was justified but war is messy. Any war is, and I do believe Israel has been unfairly dissed internationally against an impossible moral standard for a country under direct rocket attack. As Israeli Jews have unified behind Israel in this time of crisis, so have most diaspora Jews. When wartime ends, the usual political divisions emerge more strongly again.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Jingthing

[cdnvic]

Enough of the biblical references and endless debates on Zionism. None of you are going to change the other's mind. You should have figured that out long ago. Stick to the news story, and if you want to engage in off topic philosophical discussions, meet in a pub somewhere.

[Jingthing]

We probably agree Netanyahu doesn't really want a two state solution. He's a politician and he's reflecting his voters. On the other side ... big problems too, Gaza ruled by a Hamas that is transparently interested in winning ALL of Israel away from the Jews. WHY are most Israelis OK with a status quo and no real two state solution? Before the usual greedy Zionists / land grabber memes consider a more fundamental reason ... yes most Israelis are already comfortable enough with the status quo but also FEAR of being mass murdered based on actual evidence of Palestinian desire to do exactly that.

A powerful Palestinian state with intentions to win all of Jewish Israel could potentially do that. So if Israelis are afraid of that and want to prevent that, don't be too surprised or judgmental. Unless you think national suicide is an admirable trait. So Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist in words and actions is something that actually could move things forward ... easier said than done though of course.

But Netanyahu isn't Israel and Israel still IS a Jewish state. People on both sides shouldn't stop working for a two state solution because that's probably the best or even only hope. Being a supporter of Israel's right to exist and defend itself is not the same thing as supporting every Israeli government policy or politician.

Does the current conflict in Gaza just sort of put on hold move things closer to a two state solution? It doesn't appear so but some hope is being expressed that Israel now has more (though closeted) allies in the Arab world in opposition to terrorist Hamas, there might just be an opportunity from this.

Most of your post is spot on.

The part were we differ is the Israeli fear aspect. Most Israelis do not exactly fear a Palestinian state being able to do destroy

Israel, at least not for quite a while (probably under the assumption that a Palestinian state would be, in one way or another

at least partially demilitarized). The security apprehension is more to do with having more of the same (rocket/mortar fire and

suicide bombers), with more parts of Israel open wide to attack, and as an additional element - possible easier access for

outside elements (such as Iran, AQ, IS). I think it is therefore easier to solve, relative to other issues which will certainly come

up.

There are, of course, Israelis which would resist any compromise, either due to excessive fears, distrust of Palestinians, and

religious world view. Some of these issues can be addressed given satisfactory assurances and time, some cannot. While I'm

doubtful that Netanyahu got it in himself to make such a bold move, he will not be around forever (and even the last elections

were a close thing). A peace agreement does not require a unanimous decision, just a sizable enough of a majority to carry it

through and sustain it. After something is done, unless there are serious complications, things tend to sort themselves out.

You make a really good point and I agree with it.

Most Israelis are probably not AFRAID of the neighboring Arabs in that way because they know Israel is so much stronger for now.

But I do think that Israelis would naturally want to be sure any peace agreement does not create a situation where they would need to realistically live in such fear.

So a Palestinian state is one thing, a Palestinian state with the real potential to beat Israel at war is another.

That's why security concerns would be so important and the demilitarization that Israel would demand of Palestinians for a peace deal is likely not something Palestinians would agree to. Not to mention the impossibility of Israel agreeing to unconditional right of return for Arabs.

Thus my extreme pessimism.

I think perhaps diaspora Jews are often more fearful than Israeli Jews about the potential for Israel falling.

Something in the hummus perhaps?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Jingthing

[Seastallion]

Hamas never started a genocide. Did they do it ? No.

Not through lack of trying. Suicide bombers and rockets shot at civilians over many years prove that.

The Israelis have defended themselves very well, while Hamas have murdered their own people and encouraged them to kill themselves.

The fact that Hamas have failed at genocide - and pretty much everything else - does not change the fact that that is what they hope for.

What an odd thing to say, "Hamas never started a genocide." Though they consistently declare they want the death of all Jews they're not having accomplished this yet you thus gloss over their stayed goals and declare Hamas never started genocide. Because something is simply not possible you cannot therefore conclude, irrespective of their repeated stated intention, that Hamas doesn't seek genocide.

Hamas argues, very effectively, in their opinion, that furthermore it's the duty of the citizens of gaza to all die in martyrdom, if necessary, in pursuit if their aims. Therefore, it's not really just the Jews this wretched outfit seeks to harm. (Links posted earlier).

Why do people keep insisting that Hamas want all Jews dead? It is glaringly obvious from their charter that they don't. Article 31 states unambiguously :the people of all 3 religions, Christian, Islam, and Judaism can live together in peace and security"

To keep up this slanderous meme is a transparent attempt to demonise Hamas so as to defend Israel's aggression.

[Ulysses G.]

Why do people keep insisting that Hamas want all Jews dead? It is glaringly obvious from their charter that they don't.

Nonsense. You have been reading their charter very selectively.

Anti-Semitic Incitement:

------------------------

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (preamble)

[Scott]

Oversized graphic removed. Please don't post large pictures or charts, since it makes it difficult to read posts and members must scroll across the screen to see the entire post.

[boomerangutang]

You look closely at the history of ANY country in the Middle East, and you'll see a long littany of switched alliances and allegiances which go back several thousand years. Can you guess what the common thread is? It's war and power plays. Not one country in the M.East has a history without wars and power plays. Look up the Assyrians or Babylonians, and you can find out about just a couple of the many eras in M.East history when boundaries and alliances changed year by year.

Note: it's a good thing the Israelis are cool headed militarily. If they had just a small portion of the Palestinians' hot-headedness, they would forcibly move them off Gaza and the West Bank.

Yes, but Israel has NOT been there for thousands of years. It has been there for an historical blink of an eye. Only since 1948, when, as Jewish historian Professor Ilan Pappe notes, the Jews "ethnically cleansed" 900,000 Palestinians.

Only in the past 100 to 200 years have there been actual countries (with well-defined borders) in the Middle East. If westerners hadn't been involved, the M.East might still be tribal dominions shifting as often as the sand dunes - similar to borders of provinces within China have - up until a century ago. The ancestors for Israelis have been in those parts as long as Islamists' ancestors. There's as much a mix of genes there as anywhere in Europe.

Someone mentioned earlier how Israel would be gobsmacked without arms shipments from the US. Not so. Israel is one of the top arms producers in the world. Interesting that the biggest purchasers of arms worldwide are the Arabs (can't they make their own?) - yet no Arab can buy anything from their neighbors: the Israelis - because their leaders have convinced their sheeple that all Israelis are devils.

[arjunadawn]

Hamas never started a genocide. Did they do it ? No.

Not through lack of trying. Suicide bombers and rockets shot at civilians over many years prove that.

The Israelis have defended themselves very well, while Hamas have murdered their own people and encouraged them to kill themselves.

The fact that Hamas have failed at genocide - and pretty much everything else - does not change the fact that that is what they hope for.

What an odd thing to say, "Hamas never started a genocide." Though they consistently declare they want the death of all Jews they're not having accomplished this yet you thus gloss over their stayed goals and declare Hamas never started genocide. Because something is simply not possible you cannot therefore conclude, irrespective of their repeated stated intention, that Hamas doesn't seek genocide.

Hamas argues, very effectively, in their opinion, that furthermore it's the duty of the citizens of gaza to all die in martyrdom, if necessary, in pursuit if their aims. Therefore, it's not really just the Jews this wretched outfit seeks to harm. (Links posted earlier).

Why do people keep insisting that Hamas want all Jews dead? It is glaringly obvious from their charter that they don't. Article 31 states unambiguously :the people of all 3 religions, Christian, Islam, and Judaism can live together in peace and security"

To keep up this slanderous meme is a transparent attempt to demonise Hamas so as to defend Israel's aggression.

The word is libel, not slander. Watch your mouth/post. Accuse me of this again and we will have problems! Slander is a crime. How dare you assert calling murderous terrorists out on their diabolical aims "slanderous." You should never enter an intellectual gun fight with your trusty slingshot- it's clearly failing you.

Be cautious employing your emotions as the vanguard of your interactions with others; it's decidedly incorrect in this instance and your view is utterly radical, devoid of facts.

http://pamelageller.com/islamic-antisemitism/

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4376.htm

Lastly, do you really think the ingredients in any item contain "just that," and no more? Of course not. The ingredients, like wholesome fructose, are actually high fructose corn syrup, (a very dangerous item) as an example. Likewise, Hamas' proffering to live in harmony with others is likely something you have read in English- I am 100% certain because Hamas would be eaten alive otherwise. Living together, in peace, with others, ALWAYS take place within the parameters of Sharia! This is not suggestive, it's already taken for grants by Hamas' audience this is what it means. This is overwhelming fact. It cannot be otherwise in Islam. The ingredients you are reading into Hamas are intentionally or willfully misleading by Hamas- Under Sharia people of the book may live together if they pay the jiyza, and are made to feel humiliated doing so, convert, or die! There is simply no other way. You may have a point, but this does not constitute fact.

On massacre of Jews: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vFDX_cdwbB0

Edited August 30, 2014 by arjunadawn

[arjunadawn]

You look closely at the history of ANY country in the Middle East, and you'll see a long littany of switched alliances and allegiances which go back several thousand years. Can you guess what the common thread is? It's war and power plays. Not one country in the M.East has a history without wars and power plays. Look up the Assyrians or Babylonians, and you can find out about just a couple of the many eras in M.East history when boundaries and alliances changed year by year.

Note: it's a good thing the Israelis are cool headed militarily. If they had just a small portion of the Palestinians' hot-headedness, they would forcibly move them off Gaza and the West Bank.

Yes, but Israel has NOT been there for thousands of years. It has been there for an historical blink of an eye. Only since 1948, when, as Jewish historian Professor Ilan Pappe notes, the Jews "ethnically cleansed" 900,000 Palestinians.

Only in the past 100 to 200 years have there been actual countries (with well-defined borders) in the Middle East. If westerners hadn't been involved, the M.East might still be tribal dominions shifting as often as the sand dunes - similar to borders of provinces within China have - up until a century ago. The ancestors for Israelis have been in those parts as long as Islamists' ancestors. There's as much a mix of genes there as anywhere in Europe.

Someone mentioned earlier how Israel would be gobsmacked without arms shipments from the US. Not so. Israel is one of the top arms producers in the world. Interesting that the biggest purchasers of arms worldwide are the Arabs (can't they make their own?) - yet no Arab can buy anything from their neighbors: the Israelis - because their leaders have convinced their sheeple that all Israelis are devils.

Actually, one minor point: not all the Semites made it into this area in the ancient past. After Sarah ousted Hagar, Ischmaels descendants flourished further south in Edom, or Idumea. The other children of Abraham/Ibrahim later populated the currently contested areas. Indeed, when Rome installed puppets from Idumea in Jerusalem this drove the Jews insane in the second temple era. There's no question in my mind the Arabic history split off long before even Moses reached Mt Nebo, only to later slowly repopulate the area around the Greek/Roman era, notwithstanding the ebbs and flows you note.

I find the Koran roughly confirms this very thing (cited earlier). Meaning? Actually, I think it has little meaning for the present. Folks like me insist on proving a very ancient connection to the land and others are hellbent on revising or denying this Jewish connection to the land, and in the immediate sense, it is useless- what do we do now? If the Jews and Arabs were on my playground fighting, and it was the only adult, and I had to act impartially to resolve their dispute... I have no idea what to do. Irrespective of my positions, I am totally without an honest fair solution.

[dexterm]

Edited for the sake of brevity.

You look closely at the history of ANY country in the Middle East, and you'll see a long littany of switched alliances and allegiances which go back several thousand years. Can you guess what the common thread is? It's war and power plays. Not one country in the M.East has a history without wars and power plays. Look up the Assyrians or Babylonians, and you can find out about just a couple of the many eras in M.East history when boundaries and alliances changed year by year.

Note: it's a good thing the Israelis are cool headed militarily. If they had just a small portion of the Palestinians' hot-headedness, they would forcibly move them off Gaza and the West Bank.

Yes, but Israel has NOT been there for thousands of years.

The Jewish people HAVE been there for thousand of years and did not declare their own country until forced to by Arab attacks.

It is not surprising that the usual suspects are enthralled with Ilan Pappe and like to quote him. This dishonest charlatan stated that "facts are irrelevant" to him and that his work is all about his far-left ideology:

"Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers,"

The Israel-bashers love to quote a few Benny Morris paragraphs (that were taken out of context). This is what he had to say about Pappe:

"Unfortunately much of what Pappe tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. . . . This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. . . . The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappe's historical methodology and his political proclivities . . .For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable." (New Republic, March 22, 2004)

I notice no links for your quotes. Could they be fake? Lets see your sources.

[boomerangutang]

Jews were inhabiting parts of that region before Moses. Arabs are also a mixed bag. Ever hear of "rape and pillage"? That's a large part of what has been going on among those sand dunes for thousands of years. Muhammed was leader of one band of brigands which would gallop around raping and pillaging near Medina and Mecca. Some of those raped (and doing the raping) were Jews. It's quite possible Mohammed's offspring have some Jewish blood.

Here's an idea: why not find a blood type which is particular to Jews and another which is particular to Arabs. Then subject everyone in that region to mandatory blood tests. Then all those with a majority Jewish blood can get on one side of the fence, and all those who are mostly Arab can get on the other. See how ridiculous that gets? For starters, there's zero scientific difference between blood of one type and blood on the other. Secondly, even if there was, what are we supposed to do: Categorize people by the .0001 difference in blood make-up?

Oh sorry, it's not physiological, it's about belief systems. Both are deists with elaborate system of myths and heroes. It's just one varies a bit from the other, if seen from the outside.

In sum: all the variations of tribes (Gazan, Israeli, Arab, Persian, etc) are 100% man-made. Same for land boundaries. It's as though people were genetically inclined to make trouble whenever remotely possible. Like the drunk guy coming out of a bar late at night. He's looking for fight, and he'll probably find one (or more), even if he gets his butt kicked repeatedly.

[Ulysses G.]

Edited for the sake of brevity.

You look closely at the history of ANY country in the Middle East, and you'll see a long littany of switched alliances and allegiances which go back several thousand years. Can you guess what the common thread is? It's war and power plays. Not one country in the M.East has a history without wars and power plays. Look up the Assyrians or Babylonians, and you can find out about just a couple of the many eras in M.East history when boundaries and alliances changed year by year.

Note: it's a good thing the Israelis are cool headed militarily. If they had just a small portion of the Palestinians' hot-headedness, they would forcibly move them off Gaza and the West Bank.

Yes, but Israel has NOT been there for thousands of years.

The Jewish people HAVE been there for thousand of years and did not declare their own country until forced to by Arab attacks.

It is not surprising that the usual suspects are enthralled with Ilan Pappe and like to quote him. This dishonest charlatan stated that "facts are irrelevant" to him and that his work is all about his far-left ideology:

"Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers,"

The Israel-bashers love to quote a few Benny Morris paragraphs (that were taken out of context). This is what he had to say about Pappe:

"Unfortunately much of what Pappe tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication. . . . This book is awash with errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography. . . . The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappe's historical methodology and his political proclivities . . .For those enamored with subjectivity and in thrall to historical relativism, a fact is not a fact and accuracy is unattainable." (New Republic, March 22, 2004)

I notice no links for your quotes. Could they be fake? Lets see your sources.

Straight from the LIARS mouth:

"Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers."

http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/$99-11-29loos-pappe-interview.htm

[dexterm]

UG,

re your Pappe quote...taken out of context.

The old Zionist trick ..find one school, one mosque, one ambulance..one out of context quote.. and use it to obfuscate the rest.

[up-country_sinclair]

UG,

re your Pappe quote...taken out of context.

The old Zionist trick ..find one school, one mosque, one ambulance..one out of context quote.. and use it to obfuscate the rest.

Yes, I noticed that too.

[Ulysses G.]

Anyone can read the interview and see that you are telling another of many whoppers, but that never stops you guys. This is the entire question and answer:

Q: Did you first become communist or "new historian"?

A: I have to correct something: I like life too much to be communist! I am socialist. True I am member of Hadash which is a front where you find the communist party to which I don't belong. You also find the non-Zionist Arab-Jewish group to which I belong. I think both my political commitment and historian known position developed simultaneously. And one supported the other. Because of my ideology I understood documents I saw in the archives the way I understood them, and because of the documents in the archives I became more convinced in the ideological way I took. A complicated process! Some colleague told me I ruined our cause by admitting my ideological platform. Why? Everybody in Israel and Palestine has an ideological platform. Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers.

http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/$99-11-29loos-pappe-interview.htm

The political party this hypocrite belongs to:

Hadash (Hebrew acronym for “The Democratic Front for Peace and Equality”) is an Israeli political party with roots in Communism largely supported by Israeli Arabs.

Hadash is a left-wing party that, when formed in March 1977, was rooted in Israel's Communist party, the Black Panthers, and other left-wing non-communist groups.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/Hadash.html.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Ulysses G.