Does Britain have a jihadi problem?

[Richard W]

There must be a legal process in removing the citizenship and if someone hasn't violated some law, I doubt that the UK goes around revoking citizenship without some legal process.

The legal process is for the Home Secretary to send two letters - one warning that deprivation is being considered, and the other stating that he has been deprived. One may appeal within a very limited time of the second letter being sent (28 days, I think), but one has already lost British nationality and the appeal would be to regain it, possibly undoing the removal. The appeal is where court involvement starts.

All the evidence is that David Hicks did not break any law. No conviction is required, and any subsequent conviction would be almost coincidental. People are being deprived of citizenship on the legal basis that so doing is conducive to the public good, and a government barrister (Mr Tam QC, to wit) has argued that this is a no more strenuous test than that for deportation. In contested cases there has been a hint of terrorism, though legally this need not mean more than armed rebellion against a government for the sake of a cause. The level of proof is 'balance of probabilities', not 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

[Lukecan]

Let me give my 2 cents, as I'm a muslim.

First of all, people are looking at a few examples, and thinking the whole Muslim population is like that. Yes there are extremists, having extreme beliefs in just about anything is dangerous. There 5-10 thousand ISIS lunatics running around and beheading peoples heads, but that doesn't mean rest of the 1.5 billion muslim population like that, if the whole muslim population was like that then there wouldn't be any christians or atheists left alive. COMMON SENSE!

People look at me as If I raped their mother when they find out I'm a muslim.

I can easily say that maybe 10-15% of muslims are devout followers, at most. Muslims drink, commit adultery, they just about do anything normal people do.

People who are outcasts, losers, resort to extreme beliefs, if you study the people who are followers of ISIS, you'll find out that they were bullied at some point of their life.

There have been so many school shootings, none of them were committed by islamists, imagine they were committed by islamists, it would get 10x more hate and attention. These shootings were carried out by the same group of outcasts, if they happened to come from a muslim family they'd probably join ISIS and start cutting peoples head off.

[7by7]

I know I said I was not going to post again, and fully expect the ridicule from the usual suspects now that I have done so, but I simply could not let the following piece of rubbish go without comment:-

Here is an essay written by a British expat living in Thailand, not me I hasten to add.

http://gatesofvienna.net/2014/09/why-i-left-englands-mean-and-unpleasant-land/

No one who knows this area of West London well, as I do, would recognise it from the description in this article.

Yes, the area's proximity to Heathrow does mean there is a large immigrant population; but as the 2011 census show, 70% of Hillingdon's population was born in the UK and the borough's largest ethnic group, at 60.6%, is White British.

81.5% have English as their main or only language, with a further 15.6% being able to speak English well or very well.

Top three religions: Christian 49.2% None 17.0%, Muslim 10.6%.

4.7 % of males and 4.0% of females are unemployed, with just 1.5% being long term unemployed.

The figures for Hayes and Harlington (page 4) are different as the area does have a larger immigrant population than other areas of the borough; 57.8% born in the UK.

White British is still the largest ethnic group; although just, 39.9% as opposed to the second largest, Asian/British Asian at 39.25.

English is still the main language; 60.1% having it as their main or only language, a further 25.5% speaking it well or very well.

Christian, at 38.3%, is still the largest religious group, second is Muslim at 17.6% with Sikh at 14.1% third.

Unemployment is a bit higher than average for the borough; 6.0% of males, 5.4% of females being unemployed; 2.3% being long term unemployed.

Only those living 6000 miles away who have probably never visited Hayes or those totally blinded by their own prejudice could consider this article anything other than a work of fiction. Considering the website it appears on, that it bears virtually no relationship to the truth is not at all surprising.

Although he does have one thing right; the phenomenon known as 'white flight.' Though, as the figures above prove, it is not as widespread as he claims.

What causes it? Difficult; as What's the truth behind white flight? says, there is no one cause.

[mccw]

I see what you mean Lukan.

But when the outcasts have the Islamic state flag to rally around and this crazy ideology it's an even bigger danger than just a random line looser weirdo gun man.

As can be seen in the 100s of thousands of fleeing ethnic and religious minorities from ethnic cleansing taking place in Iraq/ Syria right now.

I recognise they are harming their own people too; Muslim on Muslim; and can imagine it must be hard for you with the effects of the anti Muslim feelings running high that the whole situation is breeding more of. But honestly; I think the extremists on the anti side are tiny few as well.

I think most anti extremists are not anti every Muslim at all. But seriously as an objective point of view; personally being neither Christian nor Muslim; looking at the life of Muhammad it is a worry that if such a life is taken as an example of how to conduct ones self then the potential for violence and actions that in today's civilised word are not acceptable- like marry to a child. This mans life as an example is why many from a west perspective see the whole religion as flawed and tbh abhorrent. That is not to say all Muslims follow his example; thank heavens they don't; but it's not a very nice starting point. And the example of how the Middle East deals with thier countries law and order; stoning women to death for adultery and chopping peoples hands off; death for conversion away from Islam. It's just not cricket old boy.

My Muslim friends are basically "normal" because they are in effect not Muslim. But the real Muslims are the dangerous ones. So I'm sorry to say it does look like the religion at root of the problem rather than just a few wackos.

I am not against every Muslim as a human.

But the Islamic faith/ religion just looks incompatible with a modern civilised world.

Your born a Muslim; I was born a Christian; We should all be free to believe what ever we want to believe; free from dogma and those who would seek to control us.

You mention the looks you get when say you are Muslim.

I can tell you of plenty horrible staring I've got from Muslims in certain areas of London; the ones with robes and long beards. It's not nice either. They literally look at me like a piece of shit in the form of a human that they would like to run a sword through. Seriously; it's not nice either.

[Lukecan]

I see what you mean Lukan.

But when the outcasts have the Islamic state flag to rally around and this crazy ideology it's an even bigger danger than just a random line looser weirdo gun man.

As can be seen in the 100s of thousands of fleeing ethnic and religious minorities from ethnic cleansing taking place in Iraq/ Syria right now.

I recognise they are harming their own people too; Muslim on Muslim; and can imagine it must be hard for you with the effects of the anti Muslim feelings running high that the whole situation is breeding more of. But honestly; I think the extremists on the anti side are tiny few as well.

I think most anti extremists are not anti every Muslim at all. But seriously as an objective point of view; personally being neither Christian nor Muslim; looking at the life of Muhammad it is a worry that if such a life is taken as an example of how to conduct ones self then the potential for violence and actions that in today's civilised word are not acceptable- like marry to a child. This mans life as an example is why many from a west perspective see the whole religion as flawed and tbh abhorrent. That is not to say all Muslims follow his example; thank heavens they don't; but it's not a very nice starting point. And the example of how the Middle East deals with thier countries law and order; stoning women to death for adultery and chopping peoples hands off; death for conversion away from Islam. It's just not cricket old boy.

My Muslim friends are basically "normal" because they are in effect not Muslim. But the real Muslims are the dangerous ones. So I'm sorry to say it does look like the religion at root of the problem rather than just a few wackos.

I am not against every Muslim as a human.

But the Islamic faith/ religion just looks incompatible with a modern civilised world.

Your born a Muslim; I was born a Christian; We should all be free to believe what ever we want to believe; free from dogma and those who would seek to control us.

You mention the looks you get when say you are Muslim.

I can tell you of plenty horrible staring I've got from Muslims in certain areas of London; the ones with robes and long beards. It's not nice either. They literally look at me like a piece of shit in the form of a human that they would like to run a sword through. Seriously; it's not nice either.

Not that long ago, just 200-300 years ago there were witch hunts going on in the UK, to qualify as witch being old and having a cat was enough! Just give it time, muslim is a newer religion than Christianity, 500 years younger, peoples mindset will change. When Islam was introduced, it was seen as a more modern religion compared to christianity.

[Lukecan]

Actually its based more on culture than religion. There so many different muslims.

A turkish muslim won't be that different than your western party-goer, very relaxed. The national drink of Turkey is raki which contains 40% alcohol. No one gets their head chopped off for drinking it.

On the other hand, a paki-muslim, which the UK has plenty of, these guys are more devout and usually more religious.

Then we have saudis, they represent the wahabi movement, women aren't even allowed to drive there, pretty extreme.

When the ottoman empire lost control of the middle east Extremism started to rise, caliphate was abolished by the founder of modern Turkey, Ataturk, It was a very bad move IMHO. Christians have the pope, Muslims have no one, if there was a caliphate condemning extremism acts then I don't think we'd have crazy ISIS rebels running around.

Millions of christians and jews lived in the Ottoman Empire, none of them got their heads chopped. I'll be pretty straightforward, the root cause of rising extremism is the west, they supported radical arabs in the Ottoman Empire, and what happened? Ottoman Empire fell, and you have radical islam nearly everywhere in the middle east.

Ottoman Empire was one of the first states to legalize homosexuality, alcohol was not even banned, it was legal.

If you want to point fingers, I'll tell you who to point it at. Lawrance of arabia.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Lukecan

[mccw]

That maybe the reason for this modern round; but now the extremism beast is unleashed and established what can be done to stop it?

Bombing to Stopping IS must be a start; the ethnic cleansing is looking horrific and if they grow too powerful will only be harder to deal with later when they come knocking on Europes door.

What do think about these Jihadis and hate preachers in UK; would the majority of the Muslim community accept/ think it a good idea, to block the extremist preachers from coming to the UK?

How about the deportation or stripping of citizenship of those extremists, whether combatants or financiers etc?

[mccw]

Are you Turkish Lukan?
If so; What's the general views in Turkey like of IS. Is people worried they might one day come to try and take over your country? I read recently there are estimated 3000 Turks fighting with IS and the country is the principle staging post/ transit point for European going to join the IS.

Interesting to get your views. Thanks for joining in the conversation/ debate.

[Lukecan]

Are you Turkish Lukan?

If so;

What's the general views in Turkey like of IS. Is people worried they might one day come to try and take over your country?

I read recently there are estimated 3000 Turks fighting with IS and the country is the principle staging post/ transit point for European going to join the IS.

Interesting to get your views.

Thanks for joining in the conversation/ debate.

I'm Turkish from my dads side and british from moms, I reside in Turkey

There is a very negative sentiment about ISIS here, I've never met a person who likes what these guys are doing.

The government did indeed support them during the early stages of the syrian civil war against assad, just like how CIA supported Taliban against the soviets during the 80's

But some Turkish nationalists who hate the PKK(Kurdish Terrorist Group), want the government to support ISIS against them. But that doesn't mean they are pro ISIS.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Lukecan

[mccw]

Actually its based more on culture than religion. There so many different muslims.

A turkish muslim won't be that different than your western party-goer, very relaxed. The national drink of Turkey is raki which contains 40% alcohol. No one gets their head chopped off for drinking it.

On the other hand, a paki-muslim, which the UK has plenty of, these guys are more devout and usually more religious.

Then we have saudis, they represent the wahabi movement, women aren't even allowed to drive there, pretty extreme.

When the ottoman empire lost control of the middle east Extremism started to rise, caliphate was abolished by the founder of modern Turkey, Ataturk, It was a very bad move IMHO. Christians have the pope, Muslims have no one, if there was a caliphate condemning extremism acts then I don't think we'd have crazy ISIS rebels running around.

Millions of christians and jews lived in the Ottoman Empire, none of them got their heads chopped. I'll be pretty straightforward, the root cause of rising extremism is the west, they supported radical arabs in the Ottoman Empire, and what happened? Ottoman Empire fell, and you have radical islam nearly everywhere in the middle east.

Ottoman Empire was one of the first states to legalize homosexuality, alcohol was not even banned, it was legal.

If you want to point fingers, I'll tell you who to point it at. Lawrance of arabia.

I must say though;

These radicals; may have been supported by the westerners for the colonial power play. But they still got the radical ideas from somewhere; which wasn't the west's doing.

[Lukecan]

Actually its based more on culture than religion. There so many different muslims.

A turkish muslim won't be that different than your western party-goer, very relaxed. The national drink of Turkey is raki which contains 40% alcohol. No one gets their head chopped off for drinking it.

On the other hand, a paki-muslim, which the UK has plenty of, these guys are more devout and usually more religious.

Then we have saudis, they represent the wahabi movement, women aren't even allowed to drive there, pretty extreme.

When the ottoman empire lost control of the middle east Extremism started to rise, caliphate was abolished by the founder of modern Turkey, Ataturk, It was a very bad move IMHO. Christians have the pope, Muslims have no one, if there was a caliphate condemning extremism acts then I don't think we'd have crazy ISIS rebels running around.

Millions of christians and jews lived in the Ottoman Empire, none of them got their heads chopped. I'll be pretty straightforward, the root cause of rising extremism is the west, they supported radical arabs in the Ottoman Empire, and what happened? Ottoman Empire fell, and you have radical islam nearly everywhere in the middle east.

Ottoman Empire was one of the first states to legalize homosexuality, alcohol was not even banned, it was legal.

If you want to point fingers, I'll tell you who to point it at. Lawrance of arabia.

I must say though;

These radicals; may have been supported by the westerners for the colonial power play. But they still got the radical ideas from somewhere; which wasn't the west's doing.

When there is lack of authority, extremists groups like this benefit from it. I hate Saddam with all my heart, he was a cruel dictator, but do you think ISIS could of ran around beheading peoples head during his rule? He was a dictator, but definitely not an extremist. Iraq has become a breeding ground for these lunatics thanks to lack of authority.

According to Bush, Iraq had WMD, he invaded Iraq because of this, and whats happening now? Flash forward 10 years later and Iraq has become a breeding ground for lunatics, I believe the operation was democracy for iraq or something like that. Sure sounds like a democracy with ISIS lunatics running around.

[mccw]

Are you Turkish Lukan?

If so;

What's the general views in Turkey like of IS. Is people worried they might one day come to try and take over your country?

I read recently there are estimated 3000 Turks fighting with IS and the country is the principle staging post/ transit point for European going to join the IS.

Interesting to get your views.

Thanks for joining in the conversation/ debate.

I'm Turkish from my dads side and british from moms, I reside in Turkey

There is a very negative sentiment about ISIS here, I've never met a person who likes what these guys are doing.

The government did indeed support them during the early stages of the syrian civil war against assad, just like how CIA supported Taliban against the soviets during the 80's

But some Turkish nationalists who hate the PKK(Kurdish Terrorist Group), want the government to support ISIS against them. But that doesn't mean they are pro ISIS.

Very honest. Thanks for the insight.

So the Turkish government today are no so unlike the colonial powers who supported a terrible faction to achieve the political ends they desired at the time no?

The webs these people weave eh?

One mans PKK terrorist another mans freedom fighters.

IS must be looking much more unpalatable and a potential threat worse than PKK. Amazing to hear that still despite the ethnic cleansing, some they still like to support them.

[Thai at Heart]

Removing passports from jihadi UK born citizens returning home would breach UK common law and international law.

You can't make a person stateless.

It's legal and already happening. Only if they have no other nationality they think can not do it but if they are fighting for Islamic state they have documents for that "country" so there's the loop hole- they should do it; let them stay there and be Islamic state people. Too dangerous to let them back in.

IS has no sovereignty. And no such passports or citizenship ever existed.

Can UK and others within coalition forces legally start air strikes on British citizens outside their legal boundaries ?

That however is part of the complicated legal discussion going on in the UK.

Does Islamic STaTE represent a state and as such, disowning these people doesn't make them stateless. If people take up arms against their home country I don't see why they should have to accommodate them?

[Lukecan]

Are you Turkish Lukan?

If so;

What's the general views in Turkey like of IS. Is people worried they might one day come to try and take over your country?

I read recently there are estimated 3000 Turks fighting with IS and the country is the principle staging post/ transit point for European going to join the IS.

Interesting to get your views.

Thanks for joining in the conversation/ debate.

I'm Turkish from my dads side and british from moms, I reside in Turkey

There is a very negative sentiment about ISIS here, I've never met a person who likes what these guys are doing.

The government did indeed support them during the early stages of the syrian civil war against assad, just like how CIA supported Taliban against the soviets during the 80's

But some Turkish nationalists who hate the PKK(Kurdish Terrorist Group), want the government to support ISIS against them. But that doesn't mean they are pro ISIS.

Very honest. Thanks for the insight.

So the Turkish government today are no so unlike the colonial powers who supported a terrible faction to achieve the political ends they desired at the time no?

The webs these people weave eh?

One mans PKK terrorist another mans freedom fighters.

IS must be looking much more unpalatable and a potential threat worse than PKK. Amazing to hear that still despite the ethnic cleansing, some they still like to support them.

To be honest mate ISIS is not a big threat for Turkey, PKK is a much bigger threat. ISIS does not use guerrilla warfare methods, they'll be destroyed instantly if they attack Turkey. But PKK is like cancer, they use guerrilla warfare hit and run methods, in 30 years Turkish Army has not been able to eliminate them.

So this why Erdogans govt supported them in the early stages of the syrian civil war, but they withdrew their support after those famous beheadings. How did ISIS respond, they raided the Turkish consulate in Musul and took our diplomats as hostages, they were rescued yesterday after being held in captivity for 3 months.

[mccw]

Actually its based more on culture than religion. There so many different muslims.

A turkish muslim won't be that different than your western party-goer, very relaxed. The national drink of Turkey is raki which contains 40% alcohol. No one gets their head chopped off for drinking it.

On the other hand, a paki-muslim, which the UK has plenty of, these guys are more devout and usually more religious.

Then we have saudis, they represent the wahabi movement, women aren't even allowed to drive there, pretty extreme.

When the ottoman empire lost control of the middle east Extremism started to rise, caliphate was abolished by the founder of modern Turkey, Ataturk, It was a very bad move IMHO. Christians have the pope, Muslims have no one, if there was a caliphate condemning extremism acts then I don't think we'd have crazy ISIS rebels running around.

Millions of christians and jews lived in the Ottoman Empire, none of them got their heads chopped. I'll be pretty straightforward, the root cause of rising extremism is the west, they supported radical arabs in the Ottoman Empire, and what happened? Ottoman Empire fell, and you have radical islam nearly everywhere in the middle east.

Ottoman Empire was one of the first states to legalize homosexuality, alcohol was not even banned, it was legal.

If you want to point fingers, I'll tell you who to point it at. Lawrance of arabia.

I must say though;

These radicals; may have been supported by the westerners for the colonial power play. But they still got the radical ideas from somewhere; which wasn't the west's doing.

When there is lack of authority, extremists groups like this benefit from it. I hate Saddam with all my heart, he was a cruel dictator, but do you think ISIS could of ran around beheading peoples head during his rule? He was a dictator, but definitely not an extremist. Iraq has become a breeding ground for these lunatics thanks to lack of authority.

According to Bush, Iraq had WMD, he invaded Iraq because of this, and whats happening now? Flash forward 10 years later and Iraq has become a breeding ground for lunatics, I believe the operation was democracy for iraq or something like that. Sure sounds like a democracy with ISIS lunatics running around.

Agree completely.

Same mistakes with Lybia.

And Assad almost.

A firm hand is needed to keep the clerics and tribal/ sectarian nut jobs under control.

Turkey; the secularist generals kept intervening, probably for the best. But now they are back seat and Islamist agenda looks on the rise over there too now?

Lucky Al-Sisi took back the reins and kicked the Muslim brotherhood out or that country be another one down the tubes even further.

Pakistan holding on by the skin of it's teeth.

Yemen falling apart.

Tunisia on the edge.

Somalia; oh dear for a long time. Nigeria struggling.

Iran already got the clerics in power but still no where near as bad as the Saudis who are best friend of US.

Qatar and UAE; stable but essentially hubs of terrorist financing.

Bahrain the sultan just introduced sharia law.

Indonesia more extremism problems all the time.

Malaysia racist by law and getting more extreme.

Thailand, that trouble in the south still.

Uguirs kicking off.

Ache- more and more extreme

Chechens must be the only place settling Down a bit rather than getting worse.

It's really a global phenomena of this time. Not just for x or y reason local or historical. When look at it all together like this is more looking like a an ideological shift.

[mccw]

Are you Turkish Lukan?

If so;

What's the general views in Turkey like of IS. Is people worried they might one day come to try and take over your country?

I read recently there are estimated 3000 Turks fighting with IS and the country is the principle staging post/ transit point for European going to join the IS.

Interesting to get your views.

Thanks for joining in the conversation/ debate.

I'm Turkish from my dads side and british from moms, I reside in Turkey

There is a very negative sentiment about ISIS here, I've never met a person who likes what these guys are doing.

The government did indeed support them during the early stages of the syrian civil war against assad, just like how CIA supported Taliban against the soviets during the 80's

But some Turkish nationalists who hate the PKK(Kurdish Terrorist Group), want the government to support ISIS against them. But that doesn't mean they are pro ISIS.

Very honest. Thanks for the insight.

So the Turkish government today are no so unlike the colonial powers who supported a terrible faction to achieve the political ends they desired at the time no?

The webs these people weave eh?

One mans PKK terrorist another mans freedom fighters.

IS must be looking much more unpalatable and a potential threat worse than PKK. Amazing to hear that still despite the ethnic cleansing, some they still like to support them.

To be honest mate ISIS is not a big threat for Turkey, PKK is a much bigger threat. ISIS does not use guerrilla warfare methods, they'll be destroyed instantly if they attack Turkey. But PKK is like cancer, they use guerrilla warfare hit and run methods, in 30 years Turkish Army has not been able to eliminate them.

So this why Erdogans govt supported them in the early stages of the syrian civil war, but they withdrew their support after those famous beheadings. How did ISIS respond, they raided the Turkish consulate in Musul and took our diplomats as hostages, they were rescued yesterday after being held in captivity for 3 months.

They were released more like.

I wonder what promises or back room deals were done to secure their freedom.

Interesting you think IS will be so easily destroyed.

They are about to face the combined allied air power. See how quickly they are squashed not. I hope it's so easy.

But the thing is ; even if they loose territory it's then thousand of terrorists going underground to continue the fight; attack western targets. Turkey is the closest place with lots of western tourists. Your government should be getting serious on the in bound air traffic and boarder security. Since bombs don't discriminate between western and Turks when in the same market place etc.

[Lukecan]

Actually its based more on culture than religion. There so many different muslims.

A turkish muslim won't be that different than your western party-goer, very relaxed. The national drink of Turkey is raki which contains 40% alcohol. No one gets their head chopped off for drinking it.

On the other hand, a paki-muslim, which the UK has plenty of, these guys are more devout and usually more religious.

Then we have saudis, they represent the wahabi movement, women aren't even allowed to drive there, pretty extreme.

When the ottoman empire lost control of the middle east Extremism started to rise, caliphate was abolished by the founder of modern Turkey, Ataturk, It was a very bad move IMHO. Christians have the pope, Muslims have no one, if there was a caliphate condemning extremism acts then I don't think we'd have crazy ISIS rebels running around.

Millions of christians and jews lived in the Ottoman Empire, none of them got their heads chopped. I'll be pretty straightforward, the root cause of rising extremism is the west, they supported radical arabs in the Ottoman Empire, and what happened? Ottoman Empire fell, and you have radical islam nearly everywhere in the middle east.

Ottoman Empire was one of the first states to legalize homosexuality, alcohol was not even banned, it was legal.

If you want to point fingers, I'll tell you who to point it at. Lawrance of arabia.

I must say though;

These radicals; may have been supported by the westerners for the colonial power play. But they still got the radical ideas from somewhere; which wasn't the west's doing.

When there is lack of authority, extremists groups like this benefit from it. I hate Saddam with all my heart, he was a cruel dictator, but do you think ISIS could of ran around beheading peoples head during his rule? He was a dictator, but definitely not an extremist. Iraq has become a breeding ground for these lunatics thanks to lack of authority.

According to Bush, Iraq had WMD, he invaded Iraq because of this, and whats happening now? Flash forward 10 years later and Iraq has become a breeding ground for lunatics, I believe the operation was democracy for iraq or something like that. Sure sounds like a democracy with ISIS lunatics running around.

Agree completely.

Same mistakes with Lybia.

And Assad almost.

A firm hand is needed to keep the clerics and tribal/ sectarian nut jobs under control.

Turkey; the secularist generals kept intervening, probably for the best. But now they are back seat and Islamist agenda looks on the rise over there too now?

Lucky Al-Sisi took back the reins and kicked the Muslim brotherhood out or that country be another one down the tubes even further.

Pakistan holding on by the skin of it's teeth.

Yemen falling apart.

Tunisia on the edge.

Somalia; oh dear for a long time. Nigeria struggling.

Iran already got the clerics in power but still no where near as bad as the Saudis who are best friend of US.

Qatar and UAE; stable but essentially hubs of terrorist financing.

Bahrain the sultan just introduced sharia law.

Indonesia more extremism problems all the time.

Malaysia racist by law and getting more extreme.

Thailand, that trouble in the south still.

Uguirs kicking off.

Ache- more and more extreme

Chechens must be the only place settling Down a bit rather than getting worse.

It's really a global phenomena of this time. Not just for x or y reason local or historical. When look at it all together like this is more looking like a an ideological shift.

People think Erdogan is an islamist, but actually he is far from being one. Adultery was illegal according to the Turkish Penal Code, he legalized it. He just uses Islam to gain votes. Malaysia is far from being an islamist country, yes it has racist laws, but alcohol is available everywhere. I don't know the situation in Indonesia.

Some people argue that the current govt has a hidden islamic agenda, but hardly much has changed since their 12 year rule. Nightlife is thriving, more tourists are coming in every year, would they come to a country run by sharia law in numbers like this?

It is a conservative government yes, but an islamist one? Hardly doubt it. I know people close to Erdogan who run nightclubs in Istanbul.

[mccw]

Or maybe they think feeding the monster will keep them at bay and can trust for keeping words not to do any attack in Turkey.

[mccw]

But what happens if a Muslim wants to convert to Christianity or any other religion? In one of these less extreme Muslim countries.

Actually its based more on culture than religion. There so many different muslims.

A turkish muslim won't be that different than your western party-goer, very relaxed. The national drink of Turkey is raki which contains 40% alcohol. No one gets their head chopped off for drinking it.

On the other hand, a paki-muslim, which the UK has plenty of, these guys are more devout and usually more religious.

Then we have saudis, they represent the wahabi movement, women aren't even allowed to drive there, pretty extreme.

When the ottoman empire lost control of the middle east Extremism started to rise, caliphate was abolished by the founder of modern Turkey, Ataturk, It was a very bad move IMHO. Christians have the pope, Muslims have no one, if there was a caliphate condemning extremism acts then I don't think we'd have crazy ISIS rebels running around.

Millions of christians and jews lived in the Ottoman Empire, none of them got their heads chopped. I'll be pretty straightforward, the root cause of rising extremism is the west, they supported radical arabs in the Ottoman Empire, and what happened? Ottoman Empire fell, and you have radical islam nearly everywhere in the middle east.

Ottoman Empire was one of the first states to legalize homosexuality, alcohol was not even banned, it was legal.

If you want to point fingers, I'll tell you who to point it at. Lawrance of arabia.

I must say though;

These radicals; may have been supported by the westerners for the colonial power play. But they still got the radical ideas from somewhere; which wasn't the west's doing.

When there is lack of authority, extremists groups like this benefit from it. I hate Saddam with all my heart, he was a cruel dictator, but do you think ISIS could of ran around beheading peoples head during his rule? He was a dictator, but definitely not an extremist. Iraq has become a breeding ground for these lunatics thanks to lack of authority.

According to Bush, Iraq had WMD, he invaded Iraq because of this, and whats happening now? Flash forward 10 years later and Iraq has become a breeding ground for lunatics, I believe the operation was democracy for iraq or something like that. Sure sounds like a democracy with ISIS lunatics running around.

Agree completely.

Same mistakes with Lybia.

And Assad almost.

A firm hand is needed to keep the clerics and tribal/ sectarian nut jobs under control.

Turkey; the secularist generals kept intervening, probably for the best. But now they are back seat and Islamist agenda looks on the rise over there too now?

Lucky Al-Sisi took back the reins and kicked the Muslim brotherhood out or that country be another one down the tubes even further.

Pakistan holding on by the skin of it's teeth.

Yemen falling apart.

Tunisia on the edge.

Somalia; oh dear for a long time. Nigeria struggling.

Iran already got the clerics in power but still no where near as bad as the Saudis who are best friend of US.

Qatar and UAE; stable but essentially hubs of terrorist financing.

Bahrain the sultan just introduced sharia law.

Indonesia more extremism problems all the time.

Malaysia racist by law and getting more extreme.

Thailand, that trouble in the south still.

Uguirs kicking off.

Ache- more and more extreme

Chechens must be the only place settling Down a bit rather than getting worse.

It's really a global phenomena of this time. Not just for x or y reason local or historical. When look at it all together like this is more looking like a an ideological shift.

People think Erdogan is an islamist, but actually he is far from being one. Adultery was illegal according to the Turkish Penal Code, he legalized it. He just uses Islam to gain votes. Malaysia is far from being an islamist country, yes it has racist laws, but alcohol is available everywhere. I don't know the situation in Indonesia.

Some people argue that the current govt has a hidden islamic agenda, but hardly much has changed since their 12 year rule. Nightlife is thriving, more tourists are coming in every year, would they come to a country run by sharia law in numbers like this?

It is a conservative government yes, but an islamist one? Hardly doubt it. I know people close to Erdogan who run nightclubs in Istanbul.

[Lukecan]

In Turkey you're free to worship any religion you want. There are churches everywhere.

Regarding ISIS, Yes they have made multiple threats to Turkey, but I don't think they'll be able to amount to much, our Intelligence agency is very adept. You shouldn't compare Turkish authorities to the incompetent ones in Thailand. I'm sure they are tracking their every movement. There are CCTV cameras everywhere in the city, Istanbul is like London when it comes to surveillance. An american tourist was murdered 2 years ago in a very secluded place, the case was solved in 2 days.

The Turkish Intelligence Agency is a great expert when it comes to Islamist terrorist groups. They probably know who is loyal to ISIS and probably are tracking their every move as we speak.

ISIS are bunch of clowns, the reason they are successful in Iraq is due to lack of authority. They aren't smarter than the Al-Queda, trust me.

[simple1]

Are you Turkish Lukan?

If so;

What's the general views in Turkey like of IS. Is people worried they might one day come to try and take over your country?

I read recently there are estimated 3000 Turks fighting with IS and the country is the principle staging post/ transit point for European going to join the IS.

Interesting to get your views.

Thanks for joining in the conversation/ debate.

I'm Turkish from my dads side and british from moms, I reside in Turkey

There is a very negative sentiment about ISIS here, I've never met a person who likes what these guys are doing.

The government did indeed support them during the early stages of the syrian civil war against assad, just like how CIA supported Taliban against the soviets during the 80's

But some Turkish nationalists who hate the PKK(Kurdish Terrorist Group), want the government to support ISIS against them. But that doesn't mean they are pro ISIS.

Very honest. Thanks for the insight.

So the Turkish government today are no so unlike the colonial powers who supported a terrible faction to achieve the political ends they desired at the time no?

The webs these people weave eh?

One mans PKK terrorist another mans freedom fighters.

IS must be looking much more unpalatable and a potential threat worse than PKK. Amazing to hear that still despite the ethnic cleansing, some they still like to support them.

To be honest mate ISIS is not a big threat for Turkey, PKK is a much bigger threat. ISIS does not use guerrilla warfare methods, they'll be destroyed instantly if they attack Turkey. But PKK is like cancer, they use guerrilla warfare hit and run methods, in 30 years Turkish Army has not been able to eliminate them.

So this why Erdogans govt supported them in the early stages of the syrian civil war, but they withdrew their support after those famous beheadings. How did ISIS respond, they raided the Turkish consulate in Musul and took our diplomats as hostages, they were rescued yesterday after being held in captivity for 3 months.

I echo MCCW congratulations for you joining this debate.

If I interpret your comment on the IS threat to Turkey correctly you are saying that the tactics used to date by IS in Syria and Iraq are to a degree semi conventional warfare based upon excellent SWOT analysis. If that's the case, I agree IS tactics to date would mean the crushing of IS forces if they attacked Turkey in a similar manner; plus full force support from NATO (if requested).

BTW are their Sunni tribes in Turkey who would be sympathetic to IS?

Edited September 22, 2014 by simple1

[H1w4yR1da]

But the real Muslims are the dangerous ones. So I'm sorry to say it does look like the religion at root of the problem rather than just a few wackos.

And therein, as the Bard says, lies the rub.

[Ulysses G.]

But the real Muslims are the dangerous ones. So I'm sorry to say it does look like the religion at root of the problem rather than just a few wackos.

And therein, as the Bard says, lies the rub.

I've been reading "The End of Faith" the last few days and Sam Harris concurs. There are some real insights into Islam and religion in general. There is no such thing as "the religion of peace" when it comes to Islam. That is nothing but a dishonest PR slogan!

Link removed.

[NeverSure]

-snip-

According to Bush, Iraq had WMD, he invaded Iraq because of this, and whats happening now? Flash forward 10 years later and Iraq has become a breeding ground for lunatics, I believe the operation was democracy for iraq or something like that. Sure sounds like a democracy with ISIS lunatics running around.

Could you please get your facts straight and knock it off with your prejudices?

I can't stand Bush, but you forgot to mention Blair. I agree they screwed the pooch in Iraq.

But 22 Countries participated in the war in Iraq including Thailand.

I don't think you'd appreciate it if I droned on about "Blair WMD this" and "Blair WMD that" and never mentioned Bush or the leaders of other countries who were in that war.

Coalition of the Willing (As they are called)

Edited September 22, 2014 by NeverSure

[Mosha]

I must say though;

These radicals; may have been supported by the westerners for the colonial power play. But they still got the radical ideas from somewhere; which wasn't the west's doing.

When there is lack of authority, extremists groups like this benefit from it. I hate Saddam with all my heart, he was a cruel dictator, but do you think ISIS could of ran around beheading peoples head during his rule? He was a dictator, but definitely not an extremist. Iraq has become a breeding ground for these lunatics thanks to lack of authority.

According to Bush, Iraq had WMD, he invaded Iraq because of this, and whats happening now? Flash forward 10 years later and Iraq has become a breeding ground for lunatics, I believe the operation was democracy for iraq or something like that. Sure sounds like a democracy with ISIS lunatics running around.

Agree completely.

Same mistakes with Lybia.

And Assad almost.

A firm hand is needed to keep the clerics and tribal/ sectarian nut jobs under control.

Turkey; the secularist generals kept intervening, probably for the best. But now they are back seat and Islamist agenda looks on the rise over there too now?

Lucky Al-Sisi took back the reins and kicked the Muslim brotherhood out or that country be another one down the tubes even further.

Pakistan holding on by the skin of it's teeth.

Yemen falling apart.

Tunisia on the edge.

Somalia; oh dear for a long time. Nigeria struggling.

Iran already got the clerics in power but still no where near as bad as the Saudis who are best friend of US.

Qatar and UAE; stable but essentially hubs of terrorist financing.

Bahrain the sultan just introduced sharia law.

Indonesia more extremism problems all the time.

Malaysia racist by law and getting more extreme.

Thailand, that trouble in the south still.

Uguirs kicking off.

Ache- more and more extreme

Chechens must be the only place settling Down a bit rather than getting worse.

It's really a global phenomena of this time. Not just for x or y reason local or historical. When look at it all together like this is more looking like a an ideological shift.

People think Erdogan is an islamist, but actually he is far from being one. Adultery was illegal according to the Turkish Penal Code, he legalized it. He just uses Islam to gain votes. Malaysia is far from being an islamist country, yes it has racist laws, but alcohol is available everywhere. I don't know the situation in Indonesia.

Some people argue that the current govt has a hidden islamic agenda, but hardly much has changed since their 12 year rule. Nightlife is thriving, more tourists are coming in every year, would they come to a country run by sharia law in numbers like this?

It is a conservative government yes, but an islamist one? Hardly doubt it. I know people close to Erdogan who run nightclubs in Istanbul.

A post removed to enable reply.

Re Malaysia. Yes there is drink available, but the Malaysian id cards state your religion, and there are religious police. In Penang near the New Banana GH is a massage parlour. A sign on the door states it is illegal for a naked muslim man to recieve a massage from a female.

[mccw]

I've met several Malay guys who have moved to Thailand because want a more freedom life.

In Malaysia they say the police come around the bars for spot check IDs and if your Muslim you get arrested. "Muslim" is printed on the ID card.

No massage allowed either.

They are trying to ban the word "Allah" to describe God in non Islamic Texts.

They have out bursts of violence against non Muslims in some provinces, burning churches and such the last 3 or 4 years. Along with the anti Christian use of Allah, which they have been doing for centuries in this area apparently; this why I said "getting more extreme".

Also I think it is death penalty if a born Muslim converts to another religion. I remember this due to the case of a Thai woman who married a Malaysian and became citizen and Muslim but then divorced and renounced her faith; she was arrested for it and they looked like might execute her but due to international pressure the Religious court said that "because she was not born a Muslim" then it was permissible and left her off; but that means if you are born a Muslim = your dead!

Not very free in my mind.

It was close as well; on a whim or another day they might have chosen differently.

Any country with such laws is not free in my book.

I must say though;

These radicals; may have been supported by the westerners for the colonial power play. But they still got the radical ideas from somewhere; which wasn't the west's doing.

When there is lack of authority, extremists groups like this benefit from it. I hate Saddam with all my heart, he was a cruel dictator, but do you think ISIS could of ran around beheading peoples head during his rule? He was a dictator, but definitely not an extremist. Iraq has become a breeding ground for these lunatics thanks to lack of authority.

According to Bush, Iraq had WMD, he invaded Iraq because of this, and whats happening now? Flash forward 10 years later and Iraq has become a breeding ground for lunatics, I believe the operation was democracy for iraq or something like that. Sure sounds like a democracy with ISIS lunatics running around.

Agree completely.

Same mistakes with Lybia.

And Assad almost.

A firm hand is needed to keep the clerics and tribal/ sectarian nut jobs under control.

Turkey; the secularist generals kept intervening, probably for the best. But now they are back seat and Islamist agenda looks on the rise over there too now?

Lucky Al-Sisi took back the reins and kicked the Muslim brotherhood out or that country be another one down the tubes even further.

Pakistan holding on by the skin of it's teeth.

Yemen falling apart.

Tunisia on the edge.

Somalia; oh dear for a long time. Nigeria struggling.

Iran already got the clerics in power but still no where near as bad as the Saudis who are best friend of US.

Qatar and UAE; stable but essentially hubs of terrorist financing.

Bahrain the sultan just introduced sharia law.

Indonesia more extremism problems all the time.

Malaysia racist by law and getting more extreme.

Thailand, that trouble in the south still.

Uguirs kicking off.

Ache- more and more extreme

Chechens must be the only place settling Down a bit rather than getting worse.

It's really a global phenomena of this time. Not just for x or y reason local or historical. When look at it all together like this is more looking like a an ideological shift.

People think Erdogan is an islamist, but actually he is far from being one. Adultery was illegal according to the Turkish Penal Code, he legalized it. He just uses Islam to gain votes. Malaysia is far from being an islamist country, yes it has racist laws, but alcohol is available everywhere. I don't know the situation in Indonesia.

Some people argue that the current govt has a hidden islamic agenda, but hardly much has changed since their 12 year rule. Nightlife is thriving, more tourists are coming in every year, would they come to a country run by sharia law in numbers like this?

It is a conservative government yes, but an islamist one? Hardly doubt it. I know people close to Erdogan who run nightclubs in Istanbul.

A post removed to enable reply.

Re Malaysia. Yes there is drink available, but the Malaysian id cards state your religion, and there are religious police. In Penang near the New Banana GH is a massage parlour. A sign on the door states it is illegal for a naked muslim man to recieve a massage from a female.

[simple1]

But what happens if a Muslim wants to convert to Christianity or any other religion? In one of these less extreme Muslim countries.

It is claimed currently six million Muslims, mainly in Africa, covert to Christianity a year, don't hear of that many subsquently being killed.

I know for a fact Christian missionaries try to convert Thai Muslims, no idea what level of success they are acheiving.

Edited September 22, 2014 by simple1

[mccw]

No no no

None of that excuses the Jihadis. They were preaching the hate before Iraq. They Bombed embassies and ships and did other terroristic stuff a-plenty.

[simple1]

But what happens if a Muslim wants to convert to Christianity or any other religion? In one of these less extreme Muslim countries.

It is claimed currently six million Muslims, mainly in Africa, covert to Christianity a year, don't hear of that many subsquently being killed.

I know for a fact Christian missionaries try to convert Thai Muslims, no idea what level of success they are acheiving.

Good work; any links on info of that missionary success?

I'm not a fan of Christian dogma really; but I like the Jesus example for way of life and thinking, principles of love and forgiving and that. Much better example than that other guy, the murderous kiddy fiddler.

------

There was that lady in Sudan who was almost killed for stating she was Christian and married a Christian; but her father was a Muslim so they threw her in jail (where she gave birth) and they were going to kill her but international pressure eventually got her out.

http://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/jesus-instead-of-jihad-every-year-six-million-muslims-convert-to-christianity/

As for the kiddy fiddler comment it ain't going to acheive anything to raise this again, it will derail the topic. Thinking about it 'derail' probably also applies to Muslim conversion rates

Edited September 22, 2014 by simple1

[mccw]

I see extremist Islam as the enemy.

Clearly the western powers do not since thier allies are extremists and the people they have been ejecting from power are secular or non Islamic extremists; normally holding a balance over the various ethnic and religious groups.

Let's look at facts here:

Saddam

Gaddafi

Assad

Mubarak

Actually not run on religious basis at all. Nasty dictators but not ideologically dangerous.

Saudi Arabia and Qatar both finance and support the extremists we now have a problem with. Qatar especially supports the Muslim brotherhood which is a problem across North Africa; trying to seize power and usurp democracy by violence in Tunisia. Muslim brotherhood for decades has been run out of London.

Taliban were supported by USA to fight soviets.

If we want to destroy the extremists we should have gone to war with Saudi Arabia more than Iraq!

The west is just in the game for profit; history clearly shows it's not ideological at all.