Just read a post where the member congratulated the OP for using the term 'Thai woman' instead of 'Thai girl'. I am a man and was just curious as to why this would be offensive. (Incidentally in that same thread I made a post and used the term 'woman/women' thoughout, aren't I a good boy, yes I am, yes I am!!!).

It just that you talk about a 'girlfriend' and not a 'womanfriend'. As a man I don't take any offence at a woman saying:

"He is out with the boys/lads/guys/plebs/neandathals/troglodites/amoeba"

This is not some 'knuckle dragging forehead protruding' male assault on woman or polictical correctness, I was just curious thats all. So my question is:

"What is so offensive about using the term girl instead of woman?"

Probably depends on your age

Let me tell you, you reach a certain age and being called "girl" is great

However, I think what the poster was referring to was the ubiquitous label "Thai girl" which makes it sound as if they are all immature or bargirls.

I personally wouldn't refer to a woman of over 40 as a girl and many find it demeaning.

Also the problem lies in that there isn't a word for women of all ages like there is for men: "guys" is a perfectly good word that doesn't imply anything other than being male. Where as "girls" implies (to some) immaturity or perhaps women being at a lower level than men.

Personally, I think it depends on the person hearing it, the person using it and the way it is used.

Well, let's see where this one goes.

I was just thinking more about this, and actually think sometimes using "woman" rather than "girl" could come across as being offensive. For instance, if I was meeting a friend and he said "Why don't you bring your woman along" rather than "whay don't you bring your girl along", I would find the first to be slightly offensive as it sounds so impersonal, or like my wife/girlfriend is someone who's not very important to me. Sort of along the lines of using "old woman" or "old lady" to refer to one's wife.

On the other hand, reverse the situation, and say to a woman, "Why don't you bring your man along" would sound perfectly normal, but "Why don't you bring your boy along" sounds a bit strange. I guess it all depends on the circumstance where the term is used, and different people may have differing preferences to which term to use.

Edited July 15, 200619 yr by Soju

Probably depends on your age

Let me tell you, you reach a certain age and being called "girl" is great

However, I think what the poster was referring to was the ubiquitous label "Thai girl" which makes it sound as if they are all immature or bargirls.

I personally wouldn't refer to a woman of over 40 as a girl and many find it demeaning.

Also the problem lies in that there isn't a word for women of all ages like there is for men: "guys" is a perfectly good word that doesn't imply anything other than being male. Where as "girls" implies (to some) immaturity or perhaps women being at a lower level than men.

Personally, I think it depends on the person hearing it, the person using it and the way it is used.

I think in many cases it would be perfectly normal to refer to a woman over 40 as a "girl", but maybe it would depend on the age of the person speaking. For example, if you're a female, her best friend, and her age or older, then I would think referring to her as "girl" would be fine and normal. Something like "let's go out with the girls", or "you go girl", or "girl, that outfit looks great on you" all don't sound the least bit demeaning to me. But if a teenager referred to her as "girl", then it sounds as if she's putting the woman in the same age category as the teenager, so then I think it could be interpreted as being demeaning.

Well, I meant coming from a man. My father can call me girl, my husband can call me girl but I would be offended if a man my age called me girl.

Probably depends on your age

Let me tell you, you reach a certain age and being called "girl" is great

However, I think what the poster was referring to was the ubiquitous label "Thai girl" which makes it sound as if they are all immature or bargirls.

I personally wouldn't refer to a woman of over 40 as a girl and many find it demeaning.

Also the problem lies in that there isn't a word for women of all ages like there is for men: "guys" is a perfectly good word that doesn't imply anything other than being male. Where as "girls" implies (to some) immaturity or perhaps women being at a lower level than men.

Personally, I think it depends on the person hearing it, the person using it and the way it is used.

I guess maybe us 'guys' are pretty simplistic in that way. Personally speaking we do find it a bit of a minefield out there sometimes.

I remember working in Vietnam and using the correct term 'little sister' to a receptionist who worked there as she was younger than me. No problem so far. Then I discovered she was married so the next time I used the words 'older sister' to show respect and she said 'I liked it more when you called me little sister'!!! I mean whats that all about?

Its also difficult in judging ages with women sometimes (my mother advised me to never play with fire, and never, ever approach the subject of women and age). Sometimes you feel that if you refer to a woman too respectfully she will be offended because you have assumed her to be older than she is, and vice versa.

To be honest ladies, it is very confusing. On the London Underground last year I walked up a long flight of stairs to see a woman stood at the top with an enormous suitcase, obviously about to attempt to carry it down. I stopped to offer her some help, not because she was a woman but because the case really was enormous and I didn't want anyone to get hurt if it should start to tumble. Her response was "F*** Off you pig!" so I left her to it. Coincidentally at the next station on my journey there was a guy with a similar suitcase and I offered to help him. His response was 'Oh thank god! I thought no one would ask!"

I guess it was the way she heard me, as opposed to what I said. I hold doors open for people irrespective of age, race or sex. The only time I am actually concious of it though is when I do it for a woman as more than once I have been slammed for doing it. Its not 'Oh poor me, look at what they have done' or anything. I just sometimes become concerned at showing respect to woman as human beings and equals for fear of reprisals. So far it hasn't stopped me though.

Using the word 'girl' is kind of affectionate to me, but I wouldn't use it for older women as you say. I by no means intend to speak down to anyone. I can see how it could be used in a derogatory way though. I hope I never fall into that trap, as my mothers hand would reach all the way across, Europe, India and the Oceans to administer a good slap!

Edited July 15, 200619 yr by tourleadersi

Personally, I find women who get offended by offers of help very stupid indeed, what is wrong with kindness?

I am a woman and open doors for other women, men whoever happens to be behind me. My father does too, dont' think he's ever been castigated for it tho. Maybe its a british thing?

Personally, I find women who get offended by offers of help very stupid indeed, what is wrong with kindness?

I am a woman and open doors for other women, men whoever happens to be behind me. My father does too, dont' think he's ever been castigated for it tho. Maybe its a british thing?

I think its more of a 'tourleadersi' thing! My life has been one not so long collection of bizarre incidents. Its almost like I am an urban legend generator or something. I'm still smiling though.

Well, I meant coming from a man. My father can call me girl, my husband can call me girl but I would be offended if a man my age called me girl.

The original poster in the other thread was 24 years old, and talking about finding a Thai woman as a girlfirend/wife. So I'm guessing he was probably looking for fairly young women, but if let's say he was romantically interested in a woman over 40. Do you think then that using the term "girl" would be offensive? You say your husband can call you "girl". What about your boyfriend (assuming you weren't married and had a boyfriend)? At some point in a romantic relationship the line is crossed where you change from the term being offensive to being non-offensive. Just wondering where that line is?

Everyone is different, but I think a lot of us guys use "girl" to refer to a woman with whom the speaker, or the person he is speaking to has, or is interested in a romantic relationship with. If there is no romantic relationship, nor any intention of one, then he would more likely use "woman", "lady", or another term. A lot of guys aren't so subtle, and a lot of guys don't pick up so easily on subtle markers, so we tend to use language that makes it clear to be sure we're understood. If I say to another guy, "I met a girl last night", every guy knows what I mean without any further explanation. But if I say "I met a woman last night", you need further explanation to know if there was any sort of romantic connection with this woman or not.

I think in any romantic relationship it doesn't really make an impact but in a non-romantic relationship it is inappropriate for a man to call a woman his own age or older "girl" and in a professional relationship it is completely inappropriate.

Are those rules clear now?

Not sure why being considerate is "PC". Treat others as you would like to be treated. If a person finds a term offensive then for heavens sake don't use it! I just haven't really figured out this whole PC backlash that exuses rude behavior on the grounds that being PC is ridiculous.

I think in any romantic relationship it doesn't really make an impact but in a non-romantic relationship it is inappropriate for a man to call a woman his own age or older "girl" and in a professional relationship it is completely inappropriate.

Are those rules clear now?

Not sure why being considerate is "PC". Treat others as you would like to be treated. If a person finds a term offensive then for heavens sake don't use it! I just haven't really figured out this whole PC backlash that exuses rude behavior on the grounds that being PC is ridiculous.

The whole PC thing is possibly more difficult if you are a considerate person. The other day I was working on my website and wanted to refer to a 'manmade' something or other but then spent ages trying to come up with another appropriate word as I didn't want to offend anyone.

Like you said, PC is really just about referring to your fellow man (whoops there I go again!)/woman in the correct way. But some women do use it as a weapon when it is not necessary. (and some men can't even spell it let alone know when to use it!)

the term 'girl' i find offensive; i'm not a girl unless he is a boy... i'm a woman;

there is a topic posted along the lines of 'how to find the perfect thai girl'... it sounds like looking for the perfect golden retriever, or the perfect fiat... it objectifies the person ....

girl is something us 'girls' can use amongst ourselves, but not by employers, associates, or others that arent on the list of 'personal friends'... etc...

and i have no problem with telling my age, neither did my mother or grandmother.... i look younger, but never paid attention to that either.... my daugther is now a young woman (in hebrew there is a word for the younger woman)and no longer a girl; my son is not a boy but a young man (again hebrew has the terms for this).... english just seems to lack in words for some things... (although my thai bf referred to me as 'sou' when thai aquaintances asked who he was visiting as in 'going to see a girl'... and didnt say 'pu ying)

and i love it when someone helps me lift something even if i can do it also...i once watched a friend of mine push a man out of the way when he opened the door for her... rather funny and quite rude actually

the term 'girl' i find offensive; i'm not a girl unless he is a boy... i'm a woman;

there is a topic posted along the lines of 'how to find the perfect thai girl'... it sounds like looking for the perfect golden retriever, or the perfect fiat... it objectifies the person ....

girl is something us 'girls' can use amongst ourselves, but not by employers, associates, or others that arent on the list of 'personal friends'... etc...

and i have no problem with telling my age, neither did my mother or grandmother.... i look younger, but never paid attention to that either.... my daugther is now a young woman (in hebrew there is a word for the younger woman)and no longer a girl; my son is not a boy but a young man (again hebrew has the terms for this).... english just seems to lack in words for some things... (although my thai bf referred to me as 'sou' when thai aquaintances asked who he was visiting as in 'going to see a girl'... and didnt say 'pu ying)

and i love it when someone helps me lift something even if i can do it also...i once watched a friend of mine push a man out of the way when he opened the door for her... rather funny and quite rude actually

You find the term "girl" offensive, yet you refer to the man you are romantically involved with "bf", which is short for "boyfriend". The term, "how to find the perfect thai girl" is just shorthand for "how to find the perfect thai girlfriend". So tell me what I'm missing here? What exactly is your complaint? Is it using shorthand, "girl" instead of "girlfriend"? Is it that women are allowed to call someone "boyfriend", but men aren't allowed to call someone "girlfriend"? I completely miss how you can ever make the connection between "how to find the perfect thai girl" to sound like "looking for the perfect golden retriever". If he said "how to find the perfect thai plaything", then I could see your objection.

what I hate is other terms some people use to refer to women. Namely "shiela" and "bird".

I refer to my girlfriend as "girl" because that's what she likes to call herself. But to me, she's all woman.

I never had a problem with it myself. I use "girl" all the time

"I met a girl; this girl I was talking to said; I saw a girl the other day; Did you see how fat that girls ass is etc etc. I do tend to change when the female in question is noticable older though & use "woman" instead. "Oh my god, did you see the nasty top that women was wearing" for example.

When planning a night out, I call the girls & we have girls nights in or girls only shopping trips. These girls include, my 8 y/o neice & 58y/o mum

Being referred to as a girl doesn't bother me either but I do think it depends on the context. Some people may come across as patronising for example if referring to someone they don't know very well as girl when they are clearly not young.

Dunno, is really confusing but I would suggest that if you think it might be offensive, it usually will be.

Welcome to the intricacies of the English language. As a vibrant language it as constantly changing in response to the changes in society and culture. Being “politically correct” is no more than recognising these changes and realising that words that may have been appropriate many years ago, are less appropriate now. I agree with SBK. To hang on to a word or phrase that you know can offend, just because you don’t want to change seems to be a rather childish way to deal with the changing world around us.

It does take time for such cultural and language “shifts” to reach everyone and we are all sometimes caught out using a phrase or word that we did not realise would cause offence (many older generations still use the word “coloured” in the belief that it is a more polite word than “black”). But once you know it causes offence, insisting on still using it would just be asking for trouble.

“Girl” would never be an appropriate word to use in a professional setting. In all other settings – it is a matter of context!

in hebrew, i say 'ben zug' which means : my 'male (life) partner " or my 'male other half", and we say also ' my man' meaning husband, or my woman meaning wife ... not the same as the english terminology usage....

once again, in different languages the options are different.. english does not have a male/female lexicon... hebrew does , thai doesnt... not sure what my thai male friends say : i think they use specific identifiers such as my ''pi sou ' (big sister) or 'wife'... 'banya'...

in internet shorthand, bf as in boyfriend is one word, not as in the sentence i used as an example and yes, here on the forums it is often meant as in 'thai girl plaything''... and i NEVER NEVER say 'my boy'' as most men say: my girl talks endlessly on the cell phone, or 'i bought my girl some flowers'... i dont buy my 'boy' anything unless im talking about my son, i buy my 'ben zug -hebrew' (partner) a beer-- in english, among my english speaking friends, i say 'my partner' , in thai, i refer to him as my husband (saami) since we think of eachother as husband and wife (cant marry him here in israel)

the more languages a person speaks the more awareness he/she develops about the different terminology for gender and gender identities that reflect the particular culture...and the place of the woman/man/child etc...

BTW, there is a very nice thread in the language section about gay etc terminology in thai, and the cultural implications....

soju: im not really hung about about it all its just an interesting subject... all in fun

among my women friends, we do use the term girl (among the english speakers that is); i dont know how thai women refer to themselves among themselves...

Probably depends on your age

Let me tell you, you reach a certain age and being called "girl" is great

you... you... NOOO!!!!!. .. And all these years I thought you were fifteen, girl!

Probably depends on your age

Let me tell you, you reach a certain age and being called "girl" is great

you... you... NOOO!!!!!. .. And all these years I thought you were fifteen, girl!

thats why we love ya kayo

I find you can't go wrong refering to a female as a "lady". As in "this lady...that lady...ect" Much more polite than "that woman"!

I don't mind being someone's "girlfriend" but if I was speaking about a couple I didn't know well I would probably say "wife" or "partner".

It depends how the term is used.

Guys who throw out the accusation of PC Madness when being challenged on the use of the term 'Thai Girl' are too often the same guys who will use the term 'Thai Girl' but 'Western Woman'.

guest house,

thank u, thats what i was trying to say in my previous post about 'perfect thai girl"... etc....

Generally agree with sbk...it all depends on context and intent. And tone of voice....there's "girl"in a friendly tone and there's "girl"in a derogatory tone. And who the speaker is: I read more into the terminology used by a native English speaker, whom I assume understands the subtle connotations of using "girl"rather than "woman", than I would from a non-native speaker .

In any case, guys -- if you are considerate enough to even worry about this then you are already ahead of the pack and I doubt any reasonable gal (nearest equivalent to "guy") will take offense of whatever term you choose. Respect can shine through wrong terminology just as disrespect is not adequaltey masked by "PC" terminology.

Generally agree with sbk...it all depends on context and intent. And tone of voice....there's "girl"in a friendly tone and there's "girl"in a derogatory tone. And who the speaker is: I read more into the terminology used by a native English speaker, whom I assume understands the subtle connotations of using "girl"rather than "woman", than I would from a non-native speaker .

In any case, guys -- if you are considerate enough to even worry about this then you are already ahead of the pack and I doubt any reasonable gal (nearest equivalent to "guy") will take offense of whatever term you choose. Respect can shine through wrong terminology just as disrespect is not adequaltey masked by "PC" terminology.

How very well put Sheryl, thanks. Infact thanks to all the ladies who replied to this thread. I guess I have been doing ok, using the right word most of the time and definately not getting too bogged down in a PC world.

I think a lot of guys don't want to offend women, but some of them are afraid to be seen to be too considerate for fear of what their mates might say. Personally I am who I am and thats who my friends like.

I just stumbled on this thread by mistake, but as I am here...

I personally think that the way the 'label' girl is used (if it is seen as a label) much depends on the context.

I tend to automatically refer to females of any race/nationality in general terms as 'girls', although not always.

The expression in reference to my girlfriend having a females only night out with her friends: 'A night out with the girls.' springs to mind. Somehow it personalizes things, regardless of age.

Using the term women seems more appropriate when being more vague rather than personal, but at the same time it does seem to lend itself to a more mature person (read over 40?), but again there is no hard and fast rule in my view.

One expression I do baulk at when I hear it spoken by a male to any female is 'girlie'.

It is no lonnger limited to Antipodeans it would seem and I regard it as sneeringly condescending if not offensively demeaning.

I suppose Billy Connelly would not do too well here with his thoughts, given his gag: "I never forget my girlfriend's name, I always call 'em 'bitch'..."

Probably depends on your age

Let me tell you, you reach a certain age and being called "girl" is great

you... you... NOOO!!!!!. .. And all these years I thought you were fifteen, girl!

thats why we love ya kayo

mi lady, I hereby send unto you

Interesting thread.

I find it patently obvious that the use of the term 'girl' in certain circumstances will be appropriate and shouldn't offend, 'a night out with the girls' for instance but in certain circumstances will offend - a boss referring to his secretary as a girl, for example.

It's wonderful that certain languages such as Malay and Thai have terms with which to address females and males of different ages, though I don't personally believe that the lack of such determiners in English lead to gaffes that cause offence. It's more of a question of the speaker lacking in common sense, being insensitive or having a lack of social awareness.

There is comparable situation for males too.

When I was younger, in certain circumstances, I found it excrutiatingly patronising to be addressed as 'son' or 'young man' by an older work colleague, however when I'm occassionally addressed as 'young man' these days, clinging on to my rapidly expiring thirties as I am, I experience quite the opposite sensation! It makes my day!

"In any case, guys -- if you are considerate enough to even worry about this then you are already ahead of the pack and I doubt any reasonable gal (nearest equivalent to "guy") will take offense of whatever term you choose. Respect can shine through wrong terminology just as disrespect is not adequaltey masked by "PC" terminology."

________________________________

That's good to know, having been trained by a most PC (nothing wrong with that) farang female, I most always use "gal" or "woman" and generally eschew the term "girl" and I guess that's why feminist chicks dig me.

I think this issue stems from the perception that women must struggle to be taken seriously and use of the term "girl" is considered diminutive. Has anyone met a man who was bothered when referred to as "boy" or "one of the boys"? Unless you are a white guy talking to a black guy, a boss speaking to an employee, a cop talking to any man (again the issue is being diminutive) I feel safe using "boy". eh boys?

For what it's worth my PC gal friend finds the use of "boy" for "man" to be nearly as bad as "girl" for "woman". Something to do with men not wanting to grow up, I don't know, it can be a bit much to navigate sometimes, but always interesting.

Oh how I love language.

I highly recommend Tom Wolfe's 2006 Jefferson Lecture Speech concerning language:

http://www.neh.gov/whoweare/wolfe/lecture.html

It's simple really...

We can't say "Thai Woman" because that would be TW, which, as we all know, means "Thai Wife", as distinct from TG.... see ?

Probably depends on your age

Let me tell you, you reach a certain age and being called "girl" is great

However, I think what the poster was referring to was the ubiquitous label "Thai girl" which makes it sound as if they are all immature or bargirls.

I personally wouldn't refer to a woman of over 40 as a girl and many find it demeaning.

I think in any romantic relationship it doesn't really make an impact but in a non-romantic relationship it is inappropriate for a man to call a woman his own age or older "girl" and in a professional relationship it is completely inappropriate.

Are those rules clear now?

Not sure why being considerate is "PC". Treat others as you would like to be treated. If a person finds a term offensive then for heavens sake don't use it! I just haven't really figured out this whole PC backlash that exuses rude behavior on the grounds that being PC is ridiculous.

So true. Those "anti" pc people often missrepersent pc terms and act like any critism is being un pc so that being pc is something hard to do. Most of the time it is very easy to be pc, all you have to do is be considerate.

The whole PC thing is possibly more difficult if you are a considerate person. The other day I was working on my website and wanted to refer to a 'manmade' something or other but then spent ages trying to come up with another appropriate word as I didn't want to offend anyone.

Like you said, PC is really just about referring to your fellow man (whoops there I go again!)/woman in the correct way. But some women do use it as a weapon when it is not necessary. (and some men can't even spell it let alone know when to use it!)

Um... you could say handmade, handcreated, humanmade.

the term 'girl' i find offensive; i'm not a girl unless he is a boy... i'm a woman;

there is a topic posted along the lines of 'how to find the perfect thai girl'... it sounds like looking for the perfect golden retriever, or the perfect fiat... it objectifies the person ....

Yep. How many times on this forum do you read Thai girl? You would think this is a country of men and under 18/20 girls. Often you will read English/Aussie/American man and thai girl. How often are Thai men over 18/20 referred to as boys? Not often.

It depends how the term is used.

Guys who throw out the accusation of PC Madness when being challenged on the use of the term 'Thai Girl' are too often the same guys who will use the term 'Thai Girl' but 'Western Woman'.

Exactly.

Every time you read the word man on this forum replace it with boy then you would get the idea how demeaning the ridiculous use of girl is. The use of girl when referring to Thai women is even worse than for women in general, it is like they are cute little dogs, not people.

The use of girl to refer to women is also a problem in newspapers, magazines, and tv (both in the west and other places). The Bangkok Post a couple years ago called one of Thailand’s Olympic women teams as girls, while referring to the men’s teams as, you guessed it men. A couple months ago the Nation had a feature on the woman who is a tv personality (I can’t remember her name now) and co-hosted those anti Thaksin rallies with Sonthi. This article lauded her accomplishments, but the title of article called her girl. There is no way the same would have been done if she was a he.

How hard is it to call a grown woman a woman instead of a girl?? This doesn’t mean one can’t say girlfriend or girl in other such appropriate situation. (in fact nobody even suggest that, ONLY those saying it is difficult to be pc suggested that there was anyone advocating that girlfriend can’t be used when nobody did, the classic straw person argument...)

One doesn't have to be perfectly considerate all the time, but to do so most of the time is pretty easy.