What if? Scotland's steps to independence

[NoshowJones]

I wish my fellow Scots would stop bothering about Salmond, I want a YES vote, but a guy who wants homosexual marriages, sucks in to people from the M faith, apart from the likes of Gordon Brown, or Blair, he is the last person I want to see having anything to do with an independent Scotland. I haven't mentioned "call me Dave" or Milliband as they are not Scots.

[elgordo38]

People are funny creatures. Before these vital issues are decided we beat our chest with bravado but once in tiny voting booth a calmer more reasonable rationale seems to set in. I would be very surprised if they separate. There is after all safety in numbers. Will the whole world eventually breakup into little unmanageable little states. Yes the system is far far from perfect but what is the alternative.

[Neeranam]

Where are all the NO supporters?

Many of my family are voting no for selfish financial reasons but very reluctant to broadcast it. Are all NO supporters ashamed? If not, they should be, their relatives that fought in Bannockburn will be turning in their graves.

[Baerboxer]

I am at a loss to understand why the question of Scotland being a part of the EU is being raised without the question of if independence for Scotland invalidating the UK membership.

Should Scotland attain independence, would the UK that joined the EU be a different political and geographical entity to the one it would then be? How, therefore would this not constitute reason to have to renegotiate both countries membership.

Doesn't seem the EU views it this way. 5 million out of a nation of 65 million vote for "independence" and leave (great example of democracy, 5 million deciding the future for 65 million, tail wagging the dog).

They have chosen to leave and therefore are not part of agreements that bind those that have not left. Why should the other 60 million 3 countries that make up the EU be penalized?

If Catalonia leaves Spain, or the Basques France, or even Bavaria Germany, would those countries all have to leave?

The real issue is that prince Salmond mouthed off and said Scotland would automatically be admitted and would immediately negotiate better terms for Scotland, fishing and agriculture for two. His arrogance and contempt are not so easily swallowed by Europeans like Mr. Barroso as they are by clown Cameron (a good Scots name by the way).

[schweizer]

Where are all the NO supporters?

Many of my family are voting no for selfish financial reasons but very reluctant to broadcast it. Are all NO supporters ashamed? If not, they should be, their relatives that fought in Bannockburn will be turning in their graves.

And their relatives that fought at Waterloo, The Somme and Normandy to preserve freedom before totalitarianism as part of a United Kingdom will they also turn in their graves when President for life Salmond takes over?

[NoshowJones]

If it's NO then life will go on, no change, but if a YES, half the Scot populous are going to be very angry being taken into the unknown. If stuff don't work out l can see a huge amount of shit hitting the fan from that huge number of folk.

They won't be angry for long when they see little will change.....a tweak here and there is all we are planning......and never again Tory rule.

They will see the truth quite quickly actually.

You know what, two unexpected victors of independence might be:

1. Gordon Brown.

Last week Gordon Brown entered the foray, and he THUMPED salmond. Effortlessly he tore into him. Almost single handedly he turned a negative campaign from better together into an actual positive vision of why Scotland would be better off with England and with the PLP. It pulled me off the fence and well into the devo max camp. Itll have done the same for a lot of wavering labour supporters. Alas, on reflection, he can only offer an empty promise. The devo max option is already being deflated by Tory backbenchers and even Ed Balls before it managed to get off the ground. But it was a triumphant return to front line politics. In a two day burst of activity he did two things: he brought the word Federalism to the front and center of UK politics. And he rehabilitated the dirty R word, (redistribution) by challenging Alex Salmond on what hed actually done to redistribute wealth to the poor in his last 7 years, and what he was planning to do in his white paper to redistribute wealth? It was an attack designed to appeal direct to the hemorrhaging labour support for YES, and itll be honest, it worked flawlessly. The surging momentum for indepence was halted completely in its tracks as wavering labour supporters had a rethink. The problem is that now theyve had a rethink, they probably realise that devo-max isnt coming. So screw it...

You bet your ass, if Scotland votes for independence, the Scottish labour party, (despised at least by the west coast at the moment for their part in the no campaign and their commitment to austerity), will see a new leader. And Alex Salmond will be shitting himself at the prospect. I know who id want to lead scotland in this transitional phase: Big Gord any day. The man is a political powerhouse. England hated him. Scotland doesnt. He knows that independence will be his way back. And he'll seize on it if only so he can stick it to Salmond and return the scottish labour party to its natural place on the center left of scottish politics.

2. The Scottish conservative party.

Scotland isnt left wing. Its just like the rest of Britain. Theres an equal and opposite reaction of conservatism in scotland. At the moment it struggles to find its message because its so inexorably linked to Thatcher and the bullingdon club elite down south. In devolution it still cant quite cut the ties and stand out on its own to say what it wants to say. Its stuck with that label and very few people want to hear them. But theyre still there, and theyre still holding out that come independence scotland can start looking to the future again. They will be heard, and theyll see a resurgence in support from it. And once again, the big loser will be the SNP who will see their vote squeezed from the right. Conservatives used to do well in Scotland. They will do well again. And it wont hurt them one bit that independence will immediately place them as the party pushing for close ties with their main business partner: England and the Union.

So its kinda fun (to speculate). The big winners could well be the two biggest losers from the referendum vote. And the biggest losers might well turn out to have bee the biggest winners on the night of the 18th. This idea that Scotland is going into some kind of collective sulk the day after is based entirely on a lack of understanding on what independence will mean to both the Scottish Labour and Conservative parties and their supporters. Sure, theyll feign reluctance that their hands are tied and how this is a cataclysmic mistake, but theyll be relishing the change and looking to make their voice the strongest one in the 2016 elections. Salmond might just have to accept that his party are on to a hiding despite having almost single handedly brought about his lifes work. If Scotland votes for independence, theres no turning back and no point to sulk. They make it work and its that simple. And if they cant, the Scottish people will look for someone who can. We're British (in history and culture) and like the rest of Britian we arent just going to leave behind pragmatism on the 18th just because we voted to take control of our own destiny.

You mean you want that thieving hypocrite Brown running an Independent Scotland?????????????????????????????????

[GentlemanJim]

What matters to our children is now.

Sorry to disagree. What matters to our children is tomorrow, and next year, and in five years time, and ten years time, and .... fifty years time ...

That's exactly the reason we're having the referendum.

So their future can be screwed up? Right got it. Scotland is blessed with the finest education system in europe for those children willing to do even the minimum, watch that go down the toilet in the next 10 years, a rosy future for the kids i am sure. I wonder if it will be in the History curriculum how 52% of their parents screwed up their future over a hollywood romance and an eejit of a politician.

[siampolee]

Salmond indeed a fine historical Scottish name.

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Salmond

[Baerboxer]

Where are all the NO supporters?

Many of my family are voting no for selfish financial reasons but very reluctant to broadcast it. Are all NO supporters ashamed? If not, they should be, their relatives that fought in Bannockburn will be turning in their graves.

Of course, you support democracy - no intimidation of those whose view is different to yours then? They must all be selfish bar stewards not enlightened patriots like you eh?

Bannockburn - grow up. Several hundred years ago. A great many more who fought and died for the Union in two world wars and several conflicts since might be turning in their graves. Strangely enough, Mel Gibson's (aye, the drunken Jew hating ribald papist Australian) version of history, is well, a load of <deleted>.

I support the NO vote. Why, because it is wrong on so many levels in the current political, social and economic environment. and that is likely to be even more important to keep the union going forward. The vote should be based on what's best for the Scottish people now and the future, Not some silly romantic idea of a free utopia ruled by the wise SNP (now there's an oxymoron).

Next you'll be talking lovingly about the clans and their historic tartans while downing a few drams- all created by Jewish cloth merchants to exploit the Victorian obsession with all things Scottish.

[inutil]

I wish my fellow Scots would stop bothering about Salmond, I want a YES vote, but a guy who wants homosexual marriages, sucks in to people from the M faith, apart from the likes of Gordon Brown, or Blair, he is the last person I want to see having anything to do with an independent Scotland. I haven't mentioned "call me Dave" or Milliband as they are not Scots.

Youre absolutely right (well, on the first part at least, no problems at all from me on gay marriage. I welcome and support it absolutely. And i also welcome any religious faith - sorry, i thought with the tricolor you were banging on about some protestant sect there for a second and didnt really care about yoru ecumenical matters. It took me a while...).

The correction though that i would offer is that the pro-independence lot arent the people focusing on Salmond. The media are. And its deliberate because they hope that by tapping into the general popularity/unpopularity of Salmond they will a) force the supporters into more hardline nationalist rhetoric and b ) will alienate labour supporters who actually hate him plenty enough. In tying independence to salmond, they hope to pull away wavering labour support (absolutely ESSENTIAL for independence to pass), and turn the argument into one about the pipes, the heather, the glens, braveheart and runrig. The labour argument on the other hand is about redistribution, accountability, and a programme of opportunity for the working class of scotland built not on the foundations of austerity for the poor.

Or rather isnt. Thats what a labour supporter WANTS to hear and talk about. The SLP programme is fear, worry, anxiety, PENSIONS!!!! WHAT ABOUT YOUR PENSION!!! and wholesale negative What IF?-fery.

The labour party should have made this one case: The union is better for the scottish labour supporter because... <insert reason>

Instead they made the case that its a leap into the unknown and Salmond is an arse.

But no one cares. We know this already for goodness sake!

Its why the only halt in the momentum came with Browns intervention and a positive argument at last from the No camp on how Britain will actually move to become a more fair and equal society in the event of a no vote. And now that both the conservatives and labour have scuppered those promises before they even took hold, then its back to salmond is an arse, arent you worried? have you thought about your pension? and whatever else wasnt working for Better together. Which is why the yes vote MIGHT actually end up winning this.

ETA: Just one more thing. Im left of center. Solid left if im honest. Im not full on anti-privitisation or the like. I know the market works best (when regulated and protected against its own tendency to monopolise). But EVEN I know that when scotland becomes a new country its going to be, if anything, MORE pro-business and pander MORE to corporations with tax cuts. The first priority is to shore up our economy. The change any labour supporter wants to see will be GENERATIONAL. It wont be overnight. I think most people understand this reality. I felt it needed to be said though because i think theres a tendency to assume that a scottish labour supporter has pie in the sky dreams about the return of clause 4 and a sudden desire to turn the clocks back 50 years to the time of heavy industry and labour. It couldnt be further from the truth. And thats why better together keep missing their targets.

Edited September 15, 2014 by inutil

[inutil]

You mean you want that thieving hypocrite Brown running an Independent Scotland?????????????????????????????????

Me personally. Absolutely! But the nice thing is that im not the king. Theres no royal degree here. Im one voter. So are you. He has to make his case in the end to the Scottish people and theyll decide for themselves. I think honestly, he'll be welcomed with open arms though.

Edited September 15, 2014 by inutil

[Baerboxer]

I wish my fellow Scots would stop bothering about Salmond, I want a YES vote, but a guy who wants homosexual marriages, sucks in to people from the M faith, apart from the likes of Gordon Brown, or Blair, he is the last person I want to see having anything to do with an independent Scotland. I haven't mentioned "call me Dave" or Milliband as they are not Scots.

"A patriotic Scot" - who uses the Irish tricolor as an avatar.

Homophobic and religious bigot comments too?

Yes, a real vision of a "united" free Scotland.

[Baerboxer]

I am Scots and proud of it

Well that's interesting.

I am Scottish and will feel a damn sight more proud once we are running our own country.

Why?

How many UK leaders in politics, business, science, medicine and education are Scottish or have Scottish ancestors and ethnic connections?

Historically far far higher than the % ration to the population of the UK.

I'm more proud when I see Scots contributing massively to the success of my country which is the UK.

[Baerboxer]

Maybe it will be easier for Thais to get a Scotland Visitor visa from the new Scottish Consulate in Bangkok. And then, just cross the border into England...

Maybe Sots will enjoy applying for visas to travel just about anywhere with their new Scottish, non EU, passports.

Oh, Salmond says it's all going to be ok - no need to worry,

[GentlemanJim]

Where are all the NO supporters?

Many of my family are voting no for selfish financial reasons but very reluctant to broadcast it. Are all NO supporters ashamed? If not, they should be, their relatives that fought in Bannockburn will be turning in their graves.

Thank you! The post we have all been waiting for. Living proof of the idiotic nature of this referendum. You complain at your relatives for voting no for economic reasons whilst you think it appropriate to put a nation into depression and tear apart a successful union because of a battle 700 years ago. If i was allowed to use expletives on here there would follow a paragraph of them. Please tell me your reference to Bannockburn was in jest? I can barely prevent myself from saying what i want to. Utterly unbelievable.

[schweizer]

I am Scots and proud of it

Well that's interesting.

I am Scottish and will feel a damn sight more proud once we are running our own country.

Why?

How many UK leaders in politics, business, science, medicine and education are Scottish or have Scottish ancestors and ethnic connections?

Historically far far higher than the % ration to the population of the UK.

I'm more proud when I see Scots contributing massively to the success of my country which is the UK.

I always thought Cameron was a good old Scottish name maybe he should be repatriated come the glorious day

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/cameron

[smokie36]

Where are all the NO supporters?

Many of my family are voting no for selfish financial reasons but very reluctant to broadcast it. Are all NO supporters ashamed? If not, they should be, their relatives that fought in Bannockburn will be turning in their graves.

I suspect more than a few will stand in the polling booth and ask themselves if they want to walk out of it ashamed of themselves and their own selfish personal greed.

You are right....my brother's comment to me was "I'm doing just fine."

I hope these people really do wake up by Thursday!

[transam]

Where are all the NO supporters?

Many of my family are voting no for selfish financial reasons but very reluctant to broadcast it. Are all NO supporters ashamed? If not, they should be, their relatives that fought in Bannockburn will be turning in their graves.

Blimey, another shield thumper that forgets England had many wars English against English, War of the Roses comes to mind, but guess what, in this day and age there is no hate, it's history...

[NoshowJones]

I wish my fellow Scots would stop bothering about Salmond, I want a YES vote, but a guy who wants homosexual marriages, sucks in to people from the M faith, apart from the likes of Gordon Brown, or Blair, he is the last person I want to see having anything to do with an independent Scotland. I haven't mentioned "call me Dave" or Milliband as they are not Scots.

"A patriotic Scot" - who uses the Irish tricolor as an avatar.

Homophobic and religious bigot comments too?

Yes, a real vision of a "united" free Scotland.

No 1.I am not a patriotic Scot and never have been, for the very reason that we are not independent. The Irish fought and died for their independence, and the Scots cannot even put a cross on a piece of paper for theirs, and unfortunately, I don't think there will be a yes vote this time, if I'm wrong, then I will be a patriotic Scot.

No 2. I am not against homosexuality as such, as long as it does not affect me. If being against same sex marriages makes me homophobic, then that's what I am.

No 3. I am not a religious bigot, I will respect all religion as long as it does not affect me. I will not go into the reasons here why I will not respect the M faith. If you want me to go into further detail, then PM me.

I do know that both of us respects each others opinion, and I believe it will stay that way.

[inutil]

Where are all the NO supporters?

Many of my family are voting no for selfish financial reasons but very reluctant to broadcast it. Are all NO supporters ashamed? If not, they should be, their relatives that fought in Bannockburn will be turning in their graves.

Thank you! The post we have all been waiting for. Living proof of the idiotic nature of this referendum. You complain at your relatives for voting no for economic reasons whilst you think it appropriate to put a nation into depression and tear apart a successful union because of a battle 700 years ago. If i was allowed to use expletives on here there would follow a paragraph of them. Please tell me your reference to Bannockburn was in jest? I can barely prevent myself from saying what i want to. Utterly unbelievable.

So one person you disagree and have been waiting for something like 50 pages of posts is 'living proof' of the 'idiotic nature of the referendum'? I dont want to drop some math here, but one post out of ooooooooh, 1200 (the combined number of posts on both threads) are not odds in your favour here to prove anything at all about the referendum. In fact, they might well point to the actual constructive nature of the discussion that its taken this long for you to FINALLY come across this point so you can declare the whole thing an absurdity.

Also, people can have whatever the hell priorities they like. I think your fear mongering about the collapsing education system within 10 years of independence is as hilarious as it is ludicrous. It wouldnt stop me voting no though (and inadvertently allying myself with you on the day if needs be). Ive already said that the lack of braveheart and FREEDUM!!!! has been a great thing for this whole affair given that labour supporters would find it cheap sentimentalism (well, not THEIR brand of sentimentalism). Still, it doesnt mean your life long SNP supporter is somehow barred from bringing it up as a PERSONAL motivation and inspiration on why they want to vote the way they do. I think the UKIP thing is also nonsense and built on fear mongering. But if people want to vote Farange, then so be it. Its up to the other parties to find out why people would even vote for that, and either show them theyre wrong, let them hang themselves with their own rope, or offer a better vision.

Labour in scotland would love nothing more right now than for the ugly face of nationalism to emerge in these debates. It might just give them their Kinnock in Sheffield moment. And it almost did yesterday at the BBC. Passions are heightening, and the SNP could still mess it all up with misplaced Nationalism. So hold strong my friend you might find that the cultivation of Braveheart works to deliver the election to the No campaign (given that their fear and trembling has done nothing but pass the burden of momentum to the optimism of the yes campaign for the past few weeks).

Edited September 15, 2014 by inutil

[smokie36]

This is the guy who proclaims himself to be "Scots".

Any of us who know the truth will laugh ourselves silly at this.

[NoshowJones]

I wish my fellow Scots would stop bothering about Salmond, I want a YES vote, but a guy who wants homosexual marriages, sucks in to people from the M faith, apart from the likes of Gordon Brown, or Blair, he is the last person I want to see having anything to do with an independent Scotland. I haven't mentioned "call me Dave" or Milliband as they are not Scots.

Youre absolutely right (well, on the first part at least, no problems at all from me on gay marriage. I welcome and support it absolutely. And i also welcome any religious faith - sorry, i thought with the tricolor you were banging on about some protestant sect there for a second and didnt really care about yoru ecumenical matters. It took me a while...).

The correction though that i would offer is that the pro-independence lot arent the people focusing on Salmond. The media are. And its deliberate because they hope that by tapping into the general popularity/unpopularity of Salmond they will a) force the supporters into more hardline nationalist rhetoric and b ) will alienate labour supporters who actually hate him plenty enough. In tying independence to salmond, they hope to pull away wavering labour support (absolutely ESSENTIAL for independence to pass), and turn the argument into one about the pipes, the heather, the glens, braveheart and runrig. The labour argument on the other hand is about redistribution, accountability, and a programme of opportunity for the working class of scotland built not on the foundations of austerity for the poor.

Or rather isnt. Thats what a labour supporter WANTS to hear and talk about. The SLP programme is fear, worry, anxiety, PENSIONS!!!! WHAT ABOUT YOUR PENSION!!! and wholesale negative What IF?-fery.

The labour party should have made this one case: The union is better for the scottish labour supporter because... <insert reason>

Instead they made the case that its a leap into the unknown and Salmond is an arse.

But no one cares. We know this already for goodness sake!

Its why the only halt in the momentum came with Browns intervention and a positive argument at last from the No camp on how Britain will actually move to become a more fair and equal society in the event of a no vote. And now that both the conservatives and labour have scuppered those promises before they even took hold, then its back to salmond is an arse, arent you worried? have you thought about your pension? and whatever else wasnt working for Better together. Which is why the yes vote MIGHT actually end up winning this.

ETA: Just one more thing. Im left of center. Solid left if im honest. Im not full on anti-privitisation or the like. I know the market works best (when regulated and protected against its own tendency to monopolise). But EVEN I know that when scotland becomes a new country its going to be, if anything, MORE pro-business and pander MORE to corporations with tax cuts. The first priority is to shore up our economy. The change any labour supporter wants to see will be GENERATIONAL. It wont be overnight. I think most people understand this reality. I felt it needed to be said though because i think theres a tendency to assume that a scottish labour supporter has pie in the sky dreams about the return of clause 4 and a sudden desire to turn the clocks back 50 years to the time of heavy industry and labour. It couldnt be further from the truth. And thats why better together keep missing their targets.

You do speak a lot of sense here, and I agree with most of what you say. I am very biased against the Labour party, My father and mother voted Labour all their lives and I always voted SNP.

I just could not see how Labour during my lifetime were the party of the working classes, and Blair and Brown reinforced that view. If I was English, I would be voting for UKIP, even if just because I cannot see anyone being worse than Labour or The Tories.

Like you, I am more towards the left. I am a strong anti Capitalist although I do agree with it up to a point. Maybe that sounds like a contradiction.

[inutil]

Its a big tent. IIts up to the left to set out its agenda and focus on positive change. For me, Its a miss-step for the PLP to mirror this rhetoric for fear of losing votes in the swing districts through being soft on terrorists or soft on immigrants or soft on... anything at all. Its disappointing to see labour peddle this. But lets face it, despite how disgusted i am with them, theyre leading comfortably in the polls and look on course to be the next party of government. So it disgusts me. But people want it. I cant tell where to honestly direct my ire. And again, its this which alienates me from the PLP.

Its good that theyre winning. But its awful that theyre winning based on rhetoric and policy i find morally abhorrent. Just one more disconnect to add to the list alienating a west coast labour supporter from the parliamentary labour party and my belief that they offer the strongest chance for real change in the UK. As for the SNP and nationalism. As i said above, theyre welcome to whatever opinions they like. I just hope they dont let it out to play in the run up. Its not an error we're focusing on Salmond and the policies of the SNP for an independent scotland. They dont play well to the labour vote. The more its about the SNP the more labour supporters will feel repulsed by the Yes vote. But like many of the strategies of better together its just not playing out how they thought. If anything, as we get to the closing stages, the idea he might be delivering something that scotland is starting to think it might actually want could even be boosting his popularity across the parties. He wont win in 2016 mind you. Unless he fails. Then he'll be re-elected no problem.

Edited September 15, 2014 by inutil

[Basil B]

Where are all the NO supporters?

Many of my family are voting no for selfish financial reasons but very reluctant to broadcast it. Are all NO supporters ashamed? If not, they should be, their relatives that fought in Bannockburn will be turning in their graves.

"Many of my family are voting no for selfish financial reasons", typical hype and misinformation from the "YES" people...

Maybe, many of his family can actually see the the folly of independence and are not fooled by by those who believe in something for nothing,

[Estrada]

•Survation survey for the Better Together campaign: No 54%, Yes 46%

•Opinium survey for The Observer: No 53%, Yes 47%

•Panelbase survey for The Sunday Times: No 51%, Yes 49%

This article is out if date. Far from being too close to call, a no vote is a forgone conclusion. No hope whatsoever of the yes side winning.

funny that...telegraph poll puts yes at 54% and no at 46%, lets hope they get their independence...good luck Scotland

Conveniently forgetting 3 other polls that put the No Campaign in front with average No: 52.5% Yes 47.5%

•Survation survey for the Better Together campaign: No 54%, Yes 46%

•Opinium survey for The Observer: No 53%, Yes 47%

•Panelbase survey for The Sunday Times: No 51%, Yes 49%

Personally I already lost 7% of my last pension payment due to the fall in the pound and if the vote truns out to be Yes, then expect any income you recieve from the UK to drop by at least 10%.

[transam]

Not long now, see if folk have "read" through the YES sales talk and realise the YES camp has noooooooo answers, only threats towards the remaining union.

I find it quite funny that the YES camp want to go their own way yet want to be controlled by the EU, very strange that. Scots will have to send zillions of Won into the EU to support others, hmmmm, couple of million Scots tax payers will fund free "this and that" and support poorer EU members........... ...............

Of course we know a Scots bloke(s) has been out seminaring foreign folk who I think don't give a shit. Keep the bloke happy and tick anything as long as they have no residency probs.......

[richusa]

How are the Brits going to get their Haggis then?

[transam]

How are the Brits going to get their Haggis then?

Gawd............never thought of that..........STOP EVERYTHING...........Can we please have confirmation from the YES camp regarding Haggis, this could be crucial to the makers of this item......

[ResandePohm]

Sums it up perfectly! Great Video. If this man had spoken instead of Darling or the 3 stooges last week, the yes campaign would be running at 30-40%

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=798709416847541&set=vb.100001254709132&type=2&theater

Excellent video. All Scots should watch this before voting.

[chiang mai]

Financially and from an expat in Thailand viewpoint: if the YES vote succeeds, those holding THB assets will be richer in terms of Pounds - if the NO vote wins then expats will get more Baht for their Pounds, which would you rather have?