Koh Tao - DNA tests do not match with those of suspects in British tourists' murder

[stoltmamma]

Thanks for the answer .Now I understand better.

[stoltmamma]

The telegraph uk reports now that she has not been rape.

This, when combined with the info in post #179 of this thread:

"2 samples of DNA were taken from Hannah's body. No matches with anyone else they have questioned/sampled and not even a match with murdered guy.

Theory that the two Bits were having sex not yet supported!"

calls into question whether or not the authorities now have the DNA profile of the suspected killer. If at least one of the DNA samples from the female victim are from a blood source (or non-semen source), then that could be of the killer (leaving their own blood on the victim during the attack). If both DNA samples taken from the victim are of a semen source, and she has in fact not been raped, then the authorities may not yet have the DNA profile of a suspect.

This, assuming one or both of the reports quoted above don't turn out to be bogus (as has been happening elsewhere in the reporting of this crime).

Have the authorities stated they have found a DNA profile for a suspect? If yes, please link to (or cite) the report.

I don't know anything yet about the DNA results .they said they will release more infos about it tomorrow. I HOPE they are going somewhere with that.

[Jai Dee]

Please keep the personal insults out of the discussion.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but flaming other members and insults will not be tolerated.

Please keep it civil.

[xray]

From the Daily Record:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/thailand-beach-murders-recap-updates-4278682

"As reported by the Bangkok Post, he said the DNA of two men was found on the cigerette's butt which matched DNA found on Miss Witheridge."

This looks promising as a possible DNA profile of the killer(s).

Edited September 19, 2014 by xray

[Greg Nixon]

3 cigarette butts. Sounds like the murderers are smokers. A lot of Thai people smoke. More than 1 perpetrator --? Quite possibly. A robbery gone bad ? A rape gone bad ?

[jspill]

'A Thai could never do this'

Yet they did in 2006. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/1507482/Delicious-boasted-Katherines-sex-killers.html

[greenchair]

Where the hoe come from is probably the key . If it is new or old might be important. Blonde dyed hair. Wander if someone on the island has had a hair shave lately. Can't be that many people with dyed blonde hair,that smoke and have access to garden tools.

[Greg Nixon]

Good DNA experts should be able to tell the nationalities of the suspects from the DNA.

[xray]

The telegraph uk reports now that she has not been rape.

This, when combined with the info in post #179 of this thread:

"2 samples of DNA were taken from Hannah's body. No matches with anyone else they have questioned/sampled and not even a match with murdered guy.

Theory that the two Bits were having sex not yet supported!"

calls into question whether or not the authorities now have the DNA profile of the suspected killer. If at least one of the DNA samples from the female victim are from a blood source (or non-semen source), then that could be of the killer (leaving their own blood on the victim during the attack). If both DNA samples taken from the victim are of a semen source, and she has in fact not been raped, then the authorities may not yet have the DNA profile of a suspect.

This, assuming one or both of the reports quoted above don't turn out to be bogus (as has been happening elsewhere in the reporting of this crime).

Have the authorities stated they have found a DNA profile for a suspect? If yes, please link to (or cite) the report.

I don't know anything yet about the DNA results .they said they will release more infos about it tomorrow. I HOPE they are going somewhere with that.

I hope so too. The most recent report I could find at the 'Telegraph' states that the police believe the young lady was raped. I did find a report on what I consider a less reliable site that states she was not raped. The 'Daily Record' states that the DNA samples they have been using to screen possible suspects were collected from inside the young lady's body (URL in post #308), which to me means they are semen source DNA samples. If she was not raped, then those DNA semen samples would have been from consensual sex. If she was raped, then those samples are hopefully the DNA profile of the killer(s). It seems the authorities believe they have the killer(s) DNA profile, they wouldn't be checking for possible suspects with DNA that had been deposited consensually.

They have the DNA profile of Kirsty Jones' killer as well, but have been unable or unwilling to collect a sample from the main suspect in that case. Hopefully this Koh Tao case will be different, but I have not yet seen any reports of the police looking at Thai suspects, this even with reports of an altercation occurring between the victims and a Thai shortly before the murders took place.

Edited September 19, 2014 by xray

[canuckamuck]

Seems to me they were lying in wait. Had the weapon ready and had a couple of smokes. waiting for them to go back to their hut.

[halloween]

Good DNA experts should be able to tell the nationalities of the suspects from the DNA.

Excellent experts could find a passport photo in there somewhere.

[DekDaeng]

Good DNA experts should be able to tell the nationalities of the suspects from the DNA.

Excellent experts could find a passport photo in there somewhere.

Good DNA match is much better than a passport photo

[halloween]

Good DNA experts should be able to tell the nationalities of the suspects from the DNA.

Excellent experts could find a passport photo in there somewhere.

Good DNA match is much better than a passport photo

Well yes. But you aren't going to find one in your DNA, nor will you find nationality, not even race. Despite what gullible fools read in advertising from shonky DNA/Geneaology companies that prey on them.

[stoltmamma]

The telegraph uk reports now that she has not been rape.

This, when combined with the info in post #179 of this thread:

"2 samples of DNA were taken from Hannah's body. No matches with anyone else they have questioned/sampled and not even a match with murdered guy.

Theory that the two Bits were having sex not yet supported!"

calls into question whether or not the authorities now have the DNA profile of the suspected killer. If at least one of the DNA samples from the female victim are from a blood source (or non-semen source), then that could be of the killer (leaving their own blood on the victim during the attack). If both DNA samples taken from the victim are of a semen source, and she has in fact not been raped, then the authorities may not yet have the DNA profile of a suspect.

This, assuming one or both of the reports quoted above don't turn out to be bogus (as has been happening elsewhere in the reporting of this crime).

Have the authorities stated they have found a DNA profile for a suspect? If yes, please link to (or cite) the report.

I don't know anything yet about the DNA results .they said they will release more infos about it tomorrow. I HOPE they are going somewhere with that.

I hope so too. The most recent report I could find at the 'Telegraph' states that the police believe the young lady was raped. I did find a report on what I consider a less reliable site that states she was not raped. The 'Daily Record' states that the DNA samples they have been using to screen possible suspects were collected from inside the young lady's body (URL in post #308), which to me means they are semen source DNA samples. If she was not raped, then those DNA semen samples would have been from consensual sex. If she was raped, then those samples are hopefully the DNA profile of the killer(s). It seems the authorities believe they have the killer(s) DNA profile, they wouldn't be checking for possible suspects with DNA that had been deposited consensually.

They have the DNA profile of Kirsty Jones' killer as well, but have been unable or unwilling to collect a sample from the main suspect in that case. Hopefully this Koh Tao case will be different, but I have not yet seen any reports of the police looking at Thai suspects, this even with reports of an altercation occurring between the victims and a Thai shortly before the murders took place.

Which media reported that a fight took place at the bar between the victims and a Thai? I've been looking for a link but could not find it.

[DekDaeng]

Good DNA experts should be able to tell the nationalities of the suspects from the DNA.

Excellent experts could find a passport photo in there somewhere.

Good DNA match is much better than a passport photo

Well yes. But you aren't going to find one in your DNA, nor will you find nationality, not even race. Despite what gullible fools read in advertising from shonky DNA/Geneaology companies that prey on them.

Good to hear from an expert.

[halloween]

Well yes. But you aren't going to find one in your DNA, nor will you find nationality, not even race. Despite what gullible fools read in advertising from shonky DNA/Geneaology companies that prey on them.

Good to hear from an expert.

Never claimed to be one. But if you go back to post #290 you will find a repeat of a statement from experts from UC-B. You can then compare it to the advertising tripe that you posted in #251.

Forum rules say that my posts should be respectful, but respect has to be earned. Try harder.

[markwhite]

Which media reported that a fight took place at the bar between the victims and a Thai? I've been looking for a link but could not find it.

The only references I've found to this on here by SirBSer have said that someone posted a message on Hannah's Facebook wall saying more about the argument, that other people reacted badly to this, and the OP then removed the message from Facebook.

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761314-koh-tao-dna-tests-do-not-match-with-those-of-suspects-in-british-tourists-murder/page-4 #96 and elsewhere)

There is evidence of this on the commemorative FB page created for Hannah, but the way it reads is that a user named Julius Montenegro posted pics, possibly of the bodies but possibly of some other victim, and the reactions are basically calls of 'troll'. There is nothing in any comments that refer to any argument.

A post elsewhere on TV by Alwyn also mentions tweets that refer to this. There are no tweets on Hannah's named twitter account timeline relating to this.

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761406-koh-tao-murders-six-migrant-workers-freed-but-briton-still-asked-to-stay-on/page-3 comment #57)

If either of the TV posters could provide links or any more evidence, it might be more revealing.

[animatic]

The articles about the faults of genetic ancestry testing make perfect sense.

"...prospect of tracking one's DNA to a specific country, region or tribe with a take-home kit...."

Of course small sample private labs using TAKE HOME KITS will not have the precision,

nor database integrity of a national forensics lab or university researchers strict criteria.

But one should think in a case like this that 'ruling out' suspects would still be useful.

And this isn't necessary for a forensic court prosecution, but only to steer the investigation,

and waste fewer resources in the investigation.

This is complex information and since it isn't clear what level of analysis and database access

the Thailand DNA labs have access to, we still can't rule out other potentials than just one on one matching of samples.

[stoltmamma]

Which media reported that a fight took place at the bar between the victims and a Thai? I've been looking for a link but could not find it.

The only references I've found to this on here by SirBSer have said that someone posted a message on Hannah's Facebook wall saying more about the argument, that other people reacted badly to this, and the OP then removed the message from Facebook.

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761314-koh-tao-dna-tests-do-not-match-with-those-of-suspects-in-british-tourists-murder/page-4 #96 and elsewhere)

There is evidence of this on the commemorative FB page created for Hannah, but the way it reads is that a user named Julius Montenegro posted pics, possibly of the bodies but possibly of some other victim, and the reactions are basically calls of 'troll'. There is nothing in any comments that refer to any argument.

A post elsewhere on TV by Alwyn also mentions tweets that refer to this. There are no tweets on Hannah's named twitter account timeline relating to this.

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761406-koh-tao-murders-six-migrant-workers-freed-but-briton-still-asked-to-stay-on/page-3 comment #57)

If either of the TV posters could provide links or any more evidence, it might be more revealing.

Thanks for the explanation. Yes i heard about that guy posting pictures of bodies , that chock me so much. Heartless people....

They should be arrested just like the murderer . I've seen by mistake when i clicked on one link that was supposed to show a video of " commemoration" but it was fake and redirected to a page with dead bodies.

The pictures has been haunting me for about a week now.I can barely sleep at night . It feels bad not knowing what happened to these poor young people and being helpless . Also what makes me angry are those guys on the net writing that it was hannah and david fault . Nothing can justify such barbary....whatever what they have done or said.

[xray]

Which media reported that a fight took place at the bar between the victims and a Thai? I've been looking for a link but could not find it.

The only references I've found to this on here by SirBSer have said that someone posted a message on Hannah's Facebook wall saying more about the argument, that other people reacted badly to this, and the OP then removed the message from Facebook.

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761314-koh-tao-dna-tests-do-not-match-with-those-of-suspects-in-british-tourists-murder/page-4 #96 and elsewhere)

There is evidence of this on the commemorative FB page created for Hannah, but the way it reads is that a user named Julius Montenegro posted pics, possibly of the bodies but possibly of some other victim, and the reactions are basically calls of 'troll'. There is nothing in any comments that refer to any argument.

A post elsewhere on TV by Alwyn also mentions tweets that refer to this. There are no tweets on Hannah's named twitter account timeline relating to this.

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761406-koh-tao-murders-six-migrant-workers-freed-but-briton-still-asked-to-stay-on/page-3 comment #57)

If either of the TV posters could provide links or any more evidence, it might be more revealing.

and post #162 here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761069-hunt-for-killers-of-british-pair-goes-on-after-thai-police-free-myanmar-suspects/page-7

"Someone has this information as a tourist posted a comment on her personal Facebook describing what happened in the bar that night.

Most everyone I know that works on Koh Tao are over here in Samui to take a break from the island, everyone is talking about this.

Than it makes me wonder why the police never mentioned anything of this..."

and as linked to above, #96:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761314-koh-tao-dna-tests-do-not-match-with-those-of-suspects-in-british-tourists-murder/page-4

"keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!"

Edited September 19, 2014 by xray

[HeijoshinCool]

Regarding the argument about determining race from DNA:

Yes, this is all very confusing.

I can remember when I lived in the States that there was a rape and tragically the victim was also murdered. It was all over the news where we lived. At that time DNA testing was still in the experimental stage.

This rape was one of the first lot of cases where DNA samples were taken and the tests said that the rapist was an African American man. Later an African American suspect was caught and the DNA samples taken from the victim and the suspect matched and the man was found guilty on DNA evidence.

To be honest I really am not sure, so are there any DNA experts in the house? As I would be very interested to know myself.

.

Sure, Beetlejuice-

The armchair CSI-watchers are mixing apples and oranges and getting everyone confused.

DNA can not establish race. Period.

It can, however, establish traits of races. (blue eyes for instance)

This has some value at times (eliminating or including suspects), none at others (suspects of mixed heritage).

Edited September 19, 2014 by HeijoshinCool

[stoltmamma]

Which media reported that a fight took place at the bar between the victims and a Thai? I've been looking for a link but could not find it.

The only references I've found to this on here by SirBSer have said that someone posted a message on Hannah's Facebook wall saying more about the argument, that other people reacted badly to this, and the OP then removed the message from Facebook.

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761314-koh-tao-dna-tests-do-not-match-with-those-of-suspects-in-british-tourists-murder/page-4 #96 and elsewhere)

There is evidence of this on the commemorative FB page created for Hannah, but the way it reads is that a user named Julius Montenegro posted pics, possibly of the bodies but possibly of some other victim, and the reactions are basically calls of 'troll'. There is nothing in any comments that refer to any argument.

A post elsewhere on TV by Alwyn also mentions tweets that refer to this. There are no tweets on Hannah's named twitter account timeline relating to this.

(http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761406-koh-tao-murders-six-migrant-workers-freed-but-briton-still-asked-to-stay-on/page-3 comment #57)

If either of the TV posters could provide links or any more evidence, it might be more revealing.

and post #162 here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761069-hunt-for-killers-of-british-pair-goes-on-after-thai-police-free-myanmar-suspects/page-7

"Someone has this information as a tourist posted a comment on her personal Facebook describing what happened in the bar that night.

Most everyone I know that works on Koh Tao are over here in Samui to take a break from the island, everyone is talking about this.

Than it makes me wonder why the police never mentioned anything of this..."

That's very strange indeed that nothing about it has been reported on tv and by the police. I'm just hoping no one is messing with the investigation.

[markwhite]

and post #162 here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761069-hunt-for-killers-of-british-pair-goes-on-after-thai-police-free-myanmar-suspects/page-7

Also a post by SirBSer, seemingly referring to the commemorative FB page as there is nothing on Hannah's named personal FB page.

Maybe there is more information about this argument out there elsewhere.

[stoltmamma]

I'm a little ignorant about all this but do you know how much distance is it between the bar and the place where they have been murdered? I mean if it was after the party and that the victims were going back to their bungalows ;how come nobody hear them screaming or how come its no witness at all .i know it was late but why they were the only people near the beach?

[xray]

and post #162 here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761069-hunt-for-killers-of-british-pair-goes-on-after-thai-police-free-myanmar-suspects/page-7

Also a post by SirBSer, seemingly referring to the commemorative FB page as there is nothing on Hannah's named personal FB page.

Maybe there is more information about this argument out there elsewhere.

the same post you linked to above, but with quote of full post below here. It reads to me that more than one person saw an altercation ("they all say this is what happened"):

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761314-koh-tao-dna-tests-do-not-match-with-those-of-suspects-in-british-tourists-murder/page-4

"keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!"

Edited September 19, 2014 by xray

[markwhite]

the same post you linked to above, but with quote of full post below here. It reads to me that more than one person saw an altercation ("they all say this is what happened"):

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761314-koh-tao-dna-tests-do-not-match-with-those-of-suspects-in-british-tourists-murder/page-4

"keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!"

I'm trying to avoid seeming to refute what SirBser has said, because he seems to have access to information that is pertitent and valuable to the investigation. Another poster has also said that the AC bar has got a reasonably bad reputation, especially after hours, which fits with what is being said here, but doesn't clarify whether it really happened, or whether it is just heresay.

Notwithstanding good points made by others that farang witnesses might be wary about sharing some information with the police in Thailand, after 5 days it is surprising that this doesn't appear to have made it into any media reports or any official communication, accepting that the accuracy of information coming out of the investigation has been lacking at times. If it's being shared on social media by eyewitnesses, links might help to clear up whether it's a rumour or if something did really happen.

If it's true, I sincerely hope it's confirmed as part of the investigation and leads to the arrest of whoever has done this. If it's a meme, it's best if it's killed off quickly.

I've only commented on this because someone asked a similar question just after I'd looked at the commemorative FB page and Hannah's named Twitter account myself, so it seemed fair to share what I'd found. If others have found more information about this, I'd hope they'll share it too.

Edited September 19, 2014 by markwhite

[SirBser]

the same post you linked to above, but with quote of full post below here. It reads to me that more than one person saw an altercation ("they all say this is what happened"):

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761314-koh-tao-dna-tests-do-not-match-with-those-of-suspects-in-british-tourists-murder/page-4

"keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!"

I'm trying to avoid seeming to refute what SirBser has said, because he seems to have access to information that is pertitent and valuable to the investigation. Another poster has also said that the AC bar has got a reasonably bad reputation, especially after hours, which fits with what is being said here, but doesn't clarify whether it really happened, or whether it is just heresay.

Notwithstanding good points made by others that farang witnesses might be wary about sharing some information with the police in Thailand, after 5 days it is surprising that this doesn't appear to have made it into any media reports or any official communication, accepting that the accuracy of information coming out of the investigation has been lacking at times. If it's being shared on social media by eyewitnesses, links might help to clear up whether it's a rumour or if something did really happen.

If it's true, I sincerely hope it's confirmed as part of the investigation and leads to the arrest of whoever has done this. If it's a meme, it's best if it's killed off quickly.

I've only commented on this because someone asked a similar question just after I'd looked at the commemorative FB page and Hannah's named Twitter account myself, so it seemed fair to share what I'd found. If others have found more information about this, I'd hope they'll share it too.

If your at AC bar you could defiantly have a problem, about a week ago a tourist was hit in the head with a glass bottle by a Thai/Burmese boy.

AC bar is a dodgy bar as it's one of the only bars open all night to around 5-6 AM, I've had problems in this bar, just arguments etc.

The post on Hannah's memorial was made by that Julius guy. It wasn't pictures etc. Yes everyone called him a troll.

His post was a detailed account of what he said happened that night.

The reason why his post was important was because it went into detail, detail that only someone who has been to bars around there would know etc.

At the end of the day he could have been trolling but with no leads it was a good lead to look at. People on her

Memorial page said police informed so it has been reported to uk police and hopefully Thai police.

Edited September 19, 2014 by SirBser

[markwhite]

The post on Hannah's memorial was made by that Julius guy. It wasn't pictures etc. Yes everyone called him a troll.

His post was a detailed account of what he said happened that night.

The reason why his post was important was because it went into detail, detail that only someone who has been to bars around there would know etc.

At the end of the day he could have been trolling but with no leads it was a good lead to look at. People on her

Memorial page said police informed so it has been reported to uk police and hopefully Thai police.

Even the comments to Julius's original post have been removed now. I suppose it makes sense if the page admin is taking out comments that might be upsetting to the family. The only one left doesn't refer to Julius, and it seems that other trolls have also posted pics and links so it could be a reply to one of them and not Julius.

So what you said earlier implied that people you know who worked in the area were also saying the same thing. If that's right, have they been interviewed by the police, or have they been able to give evidence in some other way if they've decide to protect themselves and leave the island?

[xray]

At the end of the day he could have been trolling but with no leads it was a good lead to look at.

http://www.thaivisa....s-murder/page-4

post #96:

"Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened."

SirBser,

Was there corroboration of what had been posted on Facebook, regarding the reported altercation, by other people (bartenders) you personally know?

Edited September 19, 2014 by xray

[xray]

Memorial page said police informed so it has been reported to uk police and hopefully Thai police.

Hopefully.

Edited September 19, 2014 by xray