Why can't they get their act together?

[JDGRUEN]

"Serious students" would likely make up about 1% of the total people on ED visas.

There's not that many reasons to learn Thai other than if you live here or plan to be here for a long time.

Very few people want to learn Thai for the sake of learning Thai or because it's a useful language to know.

Whilst I agree on clamping down on fake schools that are just visa mills and people who never actually go to any classes I don't think someone signing up for a language school to get an ED visa simply because they want to stay in Thailand long term without too much hassle is a big deal.

Would you feel the same way about foreigners who manipulated the visa rules of your home country in order to stay there simply because they wanted to stay there?

It is done routinely in the U.S. Our immigration system has no way of tracking visa overstayers and as a result there are millions of them ... Plus whole schools have been nothing but 'vapor' schools with students working in the USA... One large one was discovered in California with hundreds of 'students' from India, China, Mid East - went on for years before it was found out... There were no classrooms - no instruction going on ...

[MobileContent]

I dont understand what the problem is .. I would say they got it the wrong way around.

If you want to learn to speak Thai

a) study for less than 5 months, you should study 5 hours a day - If you want to study the language over a longer period, lesson hours should be less, but you study at university and provide coursework / self study and assignments.

I have been through Thai school because I wanted to learn to speak Thai, I studied 4 hours a day, and a further 2-3 hours homework. Within 5 months at 4 hours a day, you should be able to speak/read/write Thai to a pretty good level.

But that wouldn't suit your long term holiday - would it ?

If you flipped the scenario, if you were an immigrant in the States or UK, learning then English 2 hours a day isn't going to do anything for you. The language school would come under scrutiny of some education depart and the school closed down.

Why would anyone want to learn Thai is beyond me ? unless you are married and living here ( where there are visas available to you ) or retired ( where there are available visas ) then the Thai ( along with Indonesian ) language has got to be the most useless language in the world.

Actually not. I used Thai and Bahasa Malay/Indonesian for my degree in Southeast Asian Affairs and this was in 1996. Those 2/3 languages covers 60% of ASEAN and until now I am grateful that I learned those languages. I still remember my daily trips to AUA and later used Lingua School for one on one training at 300 Baht per hour for learning the Thai language.

PS: I would like to add that I never had a problem in finding employment in Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, Indonesia or Thailand and I always got paid on a good package.

Edited September 20, 2014 by MobileContent

[enuff said]

.

Would you feel the same way about foreigners who manipulated the visa rules of your home country in order to stay there simply because they wanted to stay there?

Honestly don't care.

However the big difference between my country and Thailand however is in my home country people can hop off the plane and almost instantly start claiming benefits, free housing, free medical treatment and all manner of other things.

So there's an incentive for people to go there and abuse the system for their own benefit.

None of those things exist in Thailand, and definitely not for foreigners, so it cant be compared.

Obviously you do care and the fact that you come from a civilized country that is rich and prosperous and takes care of people is a bone stuck in your craw. I suppose you are Christian.

The fact is, thousands flock here to abuse the system for their own benefit. The pages of this forum are loaded with posts from those who reckon Thailand is a plum ripe for the plucking. Some have even asked if they could adopt a Thai baby in order to get a visa.

Do you know how much it costs to set up a bar/restaurant/guest house in a western country?

How many would be living slightly above pauper level in their own country but can reside here in luxury?

So yammering on about "none of THOSE things exist in Thailand" is irrelevant. There are plenty of other things hoards of westerners are lining up to cash in on.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

'nuff said

~

[NoshowJones]

I think Thailand is changing the rules that an educational visa to study is Thai will be given to serious students whole main purpose is to come to Thailand to learn the Thai Language.

Reasonable?

When entering Thailand to learn Thai then 2 hours a week with after class assignments is reasonable.

It was not created as the cheapest way to stay in Thailand long term.

Student visas to study English in America I believe are 4-5 hours a day during the term of the visa.

Seems reasonable requirement but school cost and living costs cheaper in Thailand.

I would like to return to school to get my master's degree but don't want to spend the money so I won't do it.

Anything different about studying Thai language.

To the OP. This is Thailand, people love having power, each Immigration office, Consulate etc, make up a lot of their own rules, a lot of times, if you are going to a certain IO or C, depending on what you are going for, you are better finding out that IO or Cs policy on it.

[NoshowJones]

"Serious students" would likely make up about 1% of the total people on ED visas.

There's not that many reasons to learn Thai other than if you live here or plan to be here for a long time.

Very few people want to learn Thai for the sake of learning Thai or because it's a useful language to know.

Whilst I agree on clamping down on fake schools that are just visa mills and people who never actually go to any classes I don't think someone signing up for a language school to get an ED visa simply because they want to stay in Thailand long term without too much hassle is a big deal.

Would you feel the same way about foreigners who manipulated the visa rules of your home country in order to stay there simply because they wanted to stay there?

Good point, but if some foreigner is living in your country, in my case the UK, I would not mind if they contribute to the economy, abide by the laws,and do not pick up any benefits they have not contributed to, and in the case of people of a certain faith, do not expect us to change our way of life to suit them.

[Fab5BKK]

If you really want to learn the language and do it under a ED visa, yes

Otherwise you can take some courses (more casually) under other visas or extensions.

Just my 2 cents

I think Thailand is changing the rules that an educational visa to study is Thai will be given to serious students whole main purpose is to come to Thailand to learn the Thai Language.
Reasonable?

When entering Thailand to learn Thai then 2 hours a week with after class assignments is reasonable.

It was not created as the cheapest way to stay in Thailand long term.

Student visas to study English in America I believe are 4-5 hours a day during the term of the visa.

Seems reasonable requirement but school cost and living costs cheaper in Thailand.

I would like to return to school to get my master's degree but don't want to spend the money so I won't do it.

Anything different about studying Thai language.

I went to University, both in Australia and USA, and no way did or other students study anything like 1300 hours during the year.

Does learning a language require the same educational regime as getting a degree?

[garyinhuahin]

In general, consulates are informal affairs run by individuals who are only part-time employees of their country's government. Their interpretations of (probably vague) guidelines is likely to be more idiosyncratic than those of national embassies.

[samran]

"Serious students" would likely make up about 1% of the total people on ED visas.

There's not that many reasons to learn Thai other than if you live here or plan to be here for a long time.

Very few people want to learn Thai for the sake of learning Thai or because it's a useful language to know.

Whilst I agree on clamping down on fake schools that are just visa mills and people who never actually go to any classes I don't think someone signing up for a language school to get an ED visa simply because they want to stay in Thailand long term without too much hassle is a big deal.

Would you feel the same way about foreigners who manipulated the visa rules of your home country in order to stay there simply because they wanted to stay there?

Good point, but if some foreigner is living in your country, in my case the UK, I would not mind if they contribute to the economy, abide by the laws,and do not pick up any benefits they have not contributed to, and in the case of people of a certain faith, do not expect us to change our way of life to suit them.

Funny, cause most people here seem to think that they should be given the cheapest visa with the lowest study threshold, so that they can move to Thailand, live in their own little enclaves, not learn Thai (but that Thais should have to learn to speak to them in English and have signs everywhere in English to compensate) and that they should be expected to be able to import their own foreign cultures here and not be chastised for it.

Kind of ironic isn't it?

[ubonjoe]

In general, consulates are informal affairs run by individuals who are only part-time employees of their country's government. Their interpretations of (probably vague) guidelines is likely to be more idiosyncratic than those of national embassies.

There are two types of consulates. The are official Thai consulates staffed by Thai government employees provide full consular services.

There are honorary consulates that only do visas and limited notary services. They are privately owned and operated and are often part of another business.

[NoshowJones]

Samran, the people you refer to are wrong, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that most Westerners in Thailand are contributing to the economy like buying houses etc etc etc, and the expense of everyday living. I know I certainly am.

[samran]

Samran, the people you refer to are wrong, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that most Westerners in Thailand are contributing to the economy like buying houses etc etc etc, and the expense of everyday living. I know I certainly am.

Just pointing out the irony, or maybe the hypocrisy of your comments. Chastise others, but the very OP is about wondering why the government here doesn't sort the MFA and Thai embassies (ie change rules and regulations) so they can suit him all the while you have your little rant about people apparently doing the same thing back home. Edited September 20, 2014 by samran

[NoshowJones]

Samran, the people you refer to are wrong, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that most Westerners in Thailand are contributing to the economy like buying houses etc etc etc, and the expense of everyday living. I know I certainly am.

Just pointing out the irony, or maybe the hypocrisy of your comments. Chastise others, but the very OP is about wondering why the government here doesn't sort the MFA and Thai embassies (ie change rules and regulations) so they can suit him all the while you have your little rant about people apparently doing the same thing back home.

So you think I'm a hypocrite because I live in Thailand, and complain about some, I repeat some immigrants living in the UK. Do I get a free house, here in Thailand? Do I get benefits paid to me here in Thailand? Will I get free hospital treatment if I need it here in Thailand etc etc? Do I expect the Thais to change their way of life to suit me?

When I lived in the UK, I had no quibble with any immigrants living and working in the UK if they contributed to the economy, paid their taxes, did not get any benefits the were not entitled to, did not expect me to change their way of life to suit them. As far as I am concerned, these people are welcome living in the UK.

[Spoonman]

I think Thailand is changing the rules that an educational visa to study is Thai will be given to serious students whole main purpose is to come to Thailand to learn the Thai Language.

Reasonable?

When entering Thailand to learn Thai then 2 hours a week with after class assignments is reasonable.

It was not created as the cheapest way to stay in Thailand long term.

Student visas to study English in America I believe are 4-5 hours a day during the term of the visa.

Seems reasonable requirement but school cost and living costs cheaper in Thailand.

I would like to return to school to get my master's degree but don't want to spend the money so I won't do it.

Anything different about studying Thai language.

I went to University, both in Australia and USA, and no way did or other students study anything like 1300 hours during the year.

That is possibly due to the fact that neither the USA or Australia has a requirement to attend an education facility 5 days per week 52 weeks per year.

Do language schools actually hold class 260 days per year here ?

Edited September 20, 2014 by Spoonman

[brianp0803]

True. Education visa to study English in America is for serious students wanting to improve their English quickly.

Maybe 1-3 month course.

Must show adequate finances to live term of visa in America.

I think impossible to study a language 4-5 hours a day for a year.

Most people on educational visa to study Thai are not serious students but I understand they don't have other reasonable price options to have long term visa.

[Tony125]

bapak

Senior Member

Posted Yesterday, 09:56

During this past week I have had dealings with five different Thai Consulates in the region with regards to Education Visa applications.

Four have some minor changes of no real consequences since the August 29 changes.

However, Singapore appears to have made up a new rule...

Foreigners applying for study courses in non-public schools, such as Thai language and culture courses, must provide documents to demonstrate that:

1. If the course is no longer than 5 months, the applicant will study at least 4 days per week, 2 hours per day.
2. If the course is longer than 5 months, the applicant will study at least 5 days per week, 5 hours per day.

So if you plan to study for 1 year, then your study hours are 25 per week x 12 months = 1300 hours.

Most of the students that I deal with could in no way afford such studies. Many are on pensions.

Why can't MFA come out with some firm rules for all Consulates to follow?

*** If the people you know are on pensions why do they need to get a Ed visa why not simply get a retirement visa? They can study Thai anywhere they want as they are on Non-O with retirement extension.

[brianp0803]

Maybe I am naive but is 65,000 baht a month for retirement difficult for people coming from Western countries?

Why would retired people want to use an education visa?

I do agree rules should be consistent, but I would vote for the stricter rules.

People should be happy Laos freely gives out visas.

I think this would not even be close to survival wages in western countries- at least not in California.

[Gutterboy]

.

Would you feel the same way about foreigners who manipulated the visa rules of your home country in order to stay there simply because they wanted to stay there?

Honestly don't care.

However the big difference between my country and Thailand however is in my home country people can hop off the plane and almost instantly start claiming benefits, free housing, free medical treatment and all manner of other things.

So there's an incentive for people to go there and abuse the system for their own benefit.

None of those things exist in Thailand, and definitely not for foreigners, so it cant be compared.

Obviously you do care and the fact that you come from a civilized country that is rich and prosperous and takes care of people is a bone stuck in your craw. I suppose you are Christian.

The fact is, thousands flock here to abuse the system for their own benefit. The pages of this forum are loaded with posts from those who reckon Thailand is a plum ripe for the plucking. Some have even asked if they could adopt a Thai baby in order to get a visa.

Do you know how much it costs to set up a bar/restaurant/guest house in a western country?

How many would be living slightly above pauper level in their own country but can reside here in luxury?

So yammering on about "none of THOSE things exist in Thailand" is irrelevant. There are plenty of other things hoards of westerners are lining up to cash in on.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

'nuff said

~

Absolute nonsense. Name one way in which foreigners are able to sponge off the system in Thailand at the taxpayers expense such as is the case in the UK.

Just because the prices here are cheaper than Western countries doesn't change the fact that every foreigner here, no matter how rich or poor, can only contribute to the economy.

[recom273]

I dont understand what the problem is .. I would say they got it the wrong way around.

If you want to learn to speak Thai

a) study for less than 5 months, you should study 5 hours a day - If you want to study the language over a longer period, lesson hours should be less, but you study at university and provide coursework / self study and assignments.

I have been through Thai school because I wanted to learn to speak Thai, I studied 4 hours a day, and a further 2-3 hours homework. Within 5 months at 4 hours a day, you should be able to speak/read/write Thai to a pretty good level.

But that wouldn't suit your long term holiday - would it ?

If you flipped the scenario, if you were an immigrant in the States or UK, learning then English 2 hours a day isn't going to do anything for you. The language school would come under scrutiny of some education depart and the school closed down.

Why would anyone want to learn Thai is beyond me ? unless you are married and living here ( where there are visas available to you ) or retired ( where there are available visas ) then the Thai ( along with Indonesian ) language has got to be the most useless language in the world.

Actually not. I used Thai and Bahasa Malay/Indonesian for my degree in Southeast Asian Affairs and this was in 1996. Those 2/3 languages covers 60% of ASEAN and until now I am grateful that I learned those languages. I still remember my daily trips to AUA and later used Lingua School for one on one training at 300 Baht per hour for learning the Thai language.

PS: I would like to add that I never had a problem in finding employment in Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, Indonesia or Thailand and I always got paid on a good package.

Sorry, I didn't want to appear to be belittling your qualification. For someone who has probably invested more than 30,000B a year into their studies there are probably greater rewards, but I'm sure you are just one of a small number here.

[enuff said]

Absolute nonsense. Name one way in which foreigners are able to sponge off the system in Thailand at the taxpayers expense such as is the case in the UK.Just because the prices here are cheaper than Western countries doesn't change the fact that every foreigner here, no matter how rich or poor, can only contribute to the economy.

Ummmm.... Pay a housekeeper $5 a day? That's the system here and plenty take advantage of it.

You forget to mention that MANY western countries murdered, raped and pillaged for a 100 years to become the rich and powerful nations they are today. Talk about sponging!

You come TO a poor developing country and your main point is that foreigners don't get benefits?

You come FROM a vastly wealthy place that takes care of the poor and downtrodden and you don't like that either.

What would make you happy?

'nuff said

~

[TheSpade]

Obviously you do care and the fact that you come from a civilized country that is rich and prosperous and takes care of people is a bone stuck in your craw. I suppose you are Christian.

The fact is, thousands flock here to abuse the system for their own benefit. The pages of this forum are loaded with posts from those who reckon Thailand is a plum ripe for the plucking. Some have even asked if they could adopt a Thai baby in order to get a visa.

Do you know how much it costs to set up a bar/restaurant/guest house in a western country?

How many would be living slightly above pauper level in their own country but can reside here in luxury?

So yammering on about "none of THOSE things exist in Thailand" is irrelevant. There are plenty of other things hoards of westerners are lining up to cash in on.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Honestly I don't care. My country has enough money to spare that it can support a few not so well off families from 3rd world countries.

And they could have even more money if they stopped wasting it on bullshit wars etc.

I'm not Christian...what;s that got to do with anything?

So you have a problem with people who having money living a reasonable standard of living in Thailand?

You think instead they should go back to where they came from and struggle instead?

Why?

They have money to spend, they take nothing out of Thailand, get no benefits or freebies. They are a benefit to Thailands economy.

Maybe I am naive but is 65,000 baht a month for retirement difficult for people coming from Western countries?

Why would retired people want to use an education visa?

I do agree rules should be consistent, but I would vote for the stricter rules.

People should be happy Laos freely gives out visas.

I think this would not even be close to survival wages in western countries- at least not in California.

Many don't have the money needed for ED visa.

Which is funny because the old blokes round here are constantly looking down on the younger ones, teachers and digital nomad types, scoffing at their incomes and lifestyles

Yet so many retirees have worked hard all their life and have nothing to show for it and barely a pot to piss in.

[paz]

5 hours a day 5 days a week of book study would over - heat my brain.

But schools in America offering educational visas to learn English mix things up with learning and games and projects practicing English.

Requirements for a Thai student studying in the USA:

A full course of study ... means:

(4) Study in any other language, liberal arts, fine arts, or other non-vocational training program, certified by a designated school official to consist of at least eighteen clock hours of attendance a week if the dominant part of the course of study consists of classroom instruction, or to consist of at least twenty-two clock hours a week if the dominant part of the course of study consists of laboratory work;

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/87373.pdf

Thailand is not the USA, and fortunately never will be.

[Gutterboy]

Absolute nonsense. Name one way in which foreigners are able to sponge off the system in Thailand at the taxpayers expense such as is the case in the UK.Just because the prices here are cheaper than Western countries doesn't change the fact that every foreigner here, no matter how rich or poor, can only contribute to the economy.

Ummmm.... Pay a housekeeper $5 a day? That's the system here and plenty take advantage of it.

You forget to mention that MANY western countries murdered, raped and pillaged for a 100 years to become the rich and powerful nations they are today. Talk about sponging!

You come TO a poor developing country and your main point is that foreigners don't get benefits?

You come FROM a vastly wealthy place that takes care of the poor and downtrodden and you don't like that either.

What would make you happy?

'nuff said

~

I think these intelligent debates are a little too confusing for you. I did not forget to mention anything because we were not discussing some Western countries' foreign policy. My main point is not that we don't receive benefits here and I never said that I don't like that my own country takes care of the poor. Oh and we are certainly not discussing what makes me happy.

You have completely missed the point we're trying to make, which is that you can not compare foreigners living in our own countries to us living in this country. The reason for this is that our countries offer numerous free benefits at taxpayers' expense, while Thailand offers absolutely none. Therefore, no foreigner here can abuse the system in the same way.

Even the person paying their housekeeper $5 a day is STILL contributing to the economy! Is that so hard to understand? If that person was not here then that housekeeper would be unemployed! (Actually most of the foreigners I know who hire such people pay them above the going rate, but that's beside the point).

Again I challenge you to 'name one way in which foreigners are able to sponge off the system in Thailand at the taxpayers expense such as is the case in the UK.'

[Postmaster]

There is nothing wrong with them. Just follow the rules. You will find they are entirely reasonable. For example Chonburi Immigration are great people, hard working, accommodating and a little flexible. Good lads and gals for sure. Just don't do anything underhanded everyone will help you.

[enuff said]

.

Dear Gutterboy,

I personally and several of my friends have received, and continue to receive, free treatment at gov't clinics and hospitals. I got an x-ray and a free pair of crutches when I hurt my leg as well as free wound dressing and anti-biotics when I was bitten by a giant centipede.

One friend has received continuous care for an open leg wound on an almost daily basis for the last 7 years. During that time, nurses from the clinic visited him at home on several occasions to dress his wound when he was laid up with another ailment.

An English teacher, she's from Aussie, takes free sewing classes at the local library.

Oh, look! The poo yai ban has brought around a kilo of gov't rice. Free. Oh, look! I got free flags to decorate the gate. Oh, look! Free packets of flu meds at the local hospital.

I challenge you to shut up now.

'nuff said

~

Edited September 20, 2014 by 'nuff said

[Gutterboy]

.

Dear Gutterboy,

I personally and several of my friends have received, and continue to receive, free treatment at gov't clinics and hospitals. I got an x-ray and a free pair of crutches when I hurt my leg as well as free wound dressing and anti-biotics when I was bitten by a giant centipede.

One friend has received continuous care for an open leg wound on an almost daily basis for the last 7 years. During that time, nurses from the clinic visited him at home on several occasions to dress his wound when he was laid up with another ailment.

An English teacher, she's from Aussie, takes free sewing classes at the local library.

Oh, look! The poo yai ban has brought around a kilo of gov't rice. Free. Oh, look! I got free flags to decorate the gate. Oh, look! Free packets of flu meds at the local hospital.

I challenge you to shut up now.

'nuff said

~

Haha ok you win! I guess that counts, although I'd hardly call that "sponging". Very surprised to hear that you and your friends received free health care here, (I have always received a bill, even at the sh*ttiest local hospitals), but really does that constitute 'thousands flocking here to abuse the system for their own benefit'?

Do free flags and sewing classes see 'hoards of westerners lining' up to cash in the system?!

[moe666]

Yes it would eliminate people wanting cheap way to stay in Thailand a long time and only have serious students on student visas.

They need to create a new visa class without the pretense of being a student for people with limited amount of money wanting to live in Thailand a long time.

They need to create a new visa class, why would they do that, if you cannot qualify for one of the visa now available find another country. No one has the right to live in Thailand no matter how special they feel

[brianp0803]

Maybe not obvious my attempt at sarcasm.

Of course crazy to suggest having a visa for people with little money wanting to live in Thailand long time.

People will complain that a requirement of a visa to live in Thailand for a year "for the purpose of learning Thai language" be to study Thai 2 hours a day and have financial resources to support yourself without working is totally unreasonable. LOL 555

But maybe if too many farang with money stayed in Thailand then costs would increase for activities used by farang.

[Badbanker]

Thailand is a sovereign country that has the right to do as it pleases when it comes to allowing people residence.

The Education Visa number has been abused for a long time and I anticipate, that, as in other visa areas it is going to be tightened up.

None of us have some god given right to stay here, rather we are guests of the Royal Thai Government and its gracious people.

Most, if not all of us are here because we don't want to live in our own countries of birth, and so should accept the rules laid down for us and learn to live within the system.

Learning the language of your country of residence, is a duty and something I started the day I arrived.

Having Thai language skills has meant I can function in areas that Thai people do and garnered respect and success.

Accept the rules as they are interpreted by the various agencies, negotiate another way or go home!

[TheSpade]

I think it's a bit smug of the people that qualify for a visa to stay in Thailand long term because they happen to be old, married to a Thai or whatever to bang on about "if there's no visa for you go elsewhere" or "you have no right to be in Thailand".

If that weren't the case you too would do what you could to stay here whether it be back to back tourist visas or signing up for a language course to get an ED visa.

Being old or married doesn't make you special. It just so happens Thailand has visas in place for those type of people. It's pure luck on your part you were born when you were or fell in love with a Thai women.

[radiochaser]

Would you feel the same way about foreigners who manipulated the visa rules of your home country in order to stay there simply because they wanted to stay there?

Honestly don't care.

However the big difference between my country and Thailand however is in my home country people can hop off the plane and almost instantly start claiming benefits, free housing, free medical treatment and all manner of other things.

Can you provide some credible evidence of your claims please?

Would you like pictures of the illegal immigrants at the local, Levittown, Pennsylvania welfare office?