Thinking of Solar Power, someone who can help me? How many kW do I need?

[dagling]

Thinking of Solar Power, someone who can help me? How many kW do I need?

I have 3 aircon in the house, 2 in the living room and one bedroom. In the lounge there is 1 in 18,000 BTU and 13,000 BTU which I use 5-8 hours each day. Starting both, but after half an hour so I use mostly one of 18,000 BTU,

In the bedroom I use it 8-10 hours per night. 12000 BTU.

I also have a small pool where the pump is used 2 hours every day, know ye not how it draws power, but it can not be that much?

I also pay electricity for the house next door where my wife lives, them no aircon, no fans, some lights, refrigerator and electric shower.

We have an average power bill of 4,500 baht per month during the year.

Anybody can give me one suggestion about which option I should go for according to the picture in this post?

[JeremyBowskill]

Last time I looked at this it didn't really seem to make financial sense, things may have changed in the last couple of years or so though. Or maybe you are doing it for green reasons, rather than financial reasons........

[dagling]

Last time I looked at this it didn't really seem to make financial sense, things may have changed in the last couple of years or so though. Or maybe you are doing it for green reasons, rather than financial reasons........

If it can save me for 60.000 or more per year, it makes sense to me;-)

[Fab5BKK]

Depends on the initial cost (RoI approach)

I know in Europe it starts to become more popular... thanks to the governnent's fundings and electricity provider's deals.

Last time I looked at this it didn't really seem to make financial sense, things may have changed in the last couple of years or so though. Or maybe you are doing it for green reasons, rather than financial reasons........

If it can save me for 60.000 or more per year, it makes sense to me;-)

Edited September 20, 2014 by Fab5BKK

[pattjock]

Last time I looked at this it didn't really seem to make financial sense, things may have changed in the last couple of years or so though. Or maybe you are doing it for green reasons, rather than financial reasons........

If it can save me for 60.000 or more per year, it makes sense to me;-)

If your monthly bill is BHT4,500 your yearly bill will be BHT54000 so not sure how you will be able to save BHT60,000 or more when you only spend BHT54,000

Anyway, it will probably take you at least 5 years to pay for the solar panels and batteries before you start saving. Still a good idea and you should not have to worry about any power outages.

[dagling]

Last time I looked at this it didn't really seem to make financial sense, things may have changed in the last couple of years or so though. Or maybe you are doing it for green reasons, rather than financial reasons........

If it can save me for 60.000 or more per year, it makes sense to me;-)

If your monthly bill is BHT4,500 your yearly bill will be BHT54000 so not sure how you will be able to save BHT60,000 or more when you only spend BHT54,000

Anyway, it will probably take you at least 5 years to pay for the solar panels and batteries before you start saving. Still a good idea and you should not have to worry about any power outages.

We have an average power bill of 4,500 baht per month during the year. Some month`s we can have 6000 per month.

[MYKTHEMIN]

You will need at least 10kva to run your house and you will never save any money, huge initial cost and ongoing part replacement, and a shed full of batteries to keep going after dark, a complete waste of time in my opinion.

[h90]

4500 Baht sounds like a lot.....

Our complete company uses 20.000 per month

3 aircons 10 hours per day 6 days a week.

2 aircon 12 hours a day 7 days a week

2 aircons 1 hour a day 6 days a week

2-3 aircons 5 hours a day 6 days a week

most aircons are pretty fat

a lot large lights

2 large fridges and a deep freeze

4 older CNC lathes with suction (3 smaller suctions, the bigger one has 4 kW).

10 computers running 10 hours a day 6 days a week.

a lot of supporting electronics.

washing machine

dish washer

So your 4.500 Baht sounds like a lot in compare to my 20.000

[dagling]

You will need at least 10kva to run your house and you will never save any money, huge initial cost and ongoing part replacement, and a shed full of batteries to keep going after dark, a complete waste of time in my opinion.

How do you know that I need 10 KW? How much power does each of my Aircon use?

[MYKTHEMIN]

Because when I have a power cut, I use a generator 2.7kw and that powers only 1 aircon in my bedroom, so you will need at least 10kw. Do not be fooled by the solar panel salesman, they do not have a clue, and when the aircons are on, forget about using the showers as to do that at the same time you will need at least 15kw. and a massive set of batteries. DO NOT BOTHER. have solar for a bit of water heating or run the computer or tv but the whole house far too expensive initially to ever save any money.

[pattjock]

Last time I looked at this it didn't really seem to make financial sense, things may have changed in the last couple of years or so though. Or maybe you are doing it for green reasons, rather than financial reasons........

If it can save me for 60.000 or more per year, it makes sense to me;-)

If your monthly bill is BHT4,500 your yearly bill will be BHT54000 so not sure how you will be able to save BHT60,000 or more when you only spend BHT54,000

Anyway, it will probably take you at least 5 years to pay for the solar panels and batteries before you start saving. Still a good idea and you should not have to worry about any power outages.

We have an average power bill of 4,500 baht per month during the year. Some month`s we can have 6000 per month.

If your average bill is BHT4,500 then your yearly average is BHT54,000 even if some month's the bill is BHT6,000 !!

Anyway, if you pay BHT 4.5 per kWh your monthly power consumtion will be 1,333 kWh (based on BHT6,000 per month). That is about 45kWh per day.

To capture that power from the sun you will probably need solar panels rated to about 10kW, that will cost you about BHT450,000. You also need batteries to store the power, that will cost about BHT150,000. You also need a good inverter to convert the battery power to 220V AC power, that will cost about BHT30,000.

Total BHT630,000 very rough estimate.

If your yearly power cost is BHT54,000 you will start saving money after 11.7 years, probably earlier as the cost of power will most likely go up in this time. The problem is that during this time you will probably have to replace the batteries.

Note: above is very rough calculations, check with an expert for details. Costs of solar power is going down every day and govenment subsidies could also cut the cost. If you can sell power to the grid you could probably recover the cost quicker, not sure if this can be done in Thailand.

[Crossy]

If you go grid-tie (assumes you have mains power available) you don't need the batteries so initial outlay is lower (3-400k Baht for 10kW).

You can also start with a smaller system which will reduce your power bill (the meter will spin backwards during the day).

Payback on a grid-tie with no feed-in tariff is about 7 years at present but is getting better.

[IMHO]

The systems you have posted are all battery-less. What you need to fist understand is if they are grid-tie (i.e. they feed excess generation back into the grid), or whether they are isolated from the grid.

If they are grid-tie, you need to understand whether it will be feeding to the grid via a sell meter, or whether the system attempts only to spin the buy meter backwards when it has excess generation. If the former, buy whatever capacity you want, as you'll be paid for all excess generated. If the latter, you might need to be careful that you are not generating more than you use in any one month, as then your buy meter reading would go down, and that might be frowned upon.

If they are not grid-tie, they will only be useful to offset your electricity bill during the 4-5 hours/day they actually generate electricity, and can then only offset what you're actually using at that time.

Get an answer on this, and we can then move to the next piece of advice

Edited September 20, 2014 by IMHO

[IMHO]

4500 Baht sounds like a lot.....

Our complete company uses 20.000 per month

3 aircons 10 hours per day 6 days a week.

2 aircon 12 hours a day 7 days a week

2 aircons 1 hour a day 6 days a week

2-3 aircons 5 hours a day 6 days a week

most aircons are pretty fat

a lot large lights

2 large fridges and a deep freeze

4 older CNC lathes with suction (3 smaller suctions, the bigger one has 4 kW).

10 computers running 10 hours a day 6 days a week.

a lot of supporting electronics.

washing machine

dish washer

So your 4.500 Baht sounds like a lot in compare to my 20.000

Ou house averages 7,500/month - I'd be very happy with just a 4,500 Bill

[ktm jeff]

IMHO In just a few short sentences , you have described solar power perfectly. Electric is cheap in Thailand , and no "pay-back" meters (where excess electric earns you money)means its not yet viable from a finance point. The above system will "knock the top off the use" , lowering the daytime meter read , but take about 7 or 8 years to pay back - thats not including the loss of capital money (interest), or inflation during that time. Im for alternative energy sources , but there is a longer payback time than most think.

[DerekMarshall]

how much roof space will be needed for a tie in 10kw system? how many pannels?

Planning permissions and costs?

Instalation costs?

[IMHO]

IMHO In just a few short sentences , you have described solar power perfectly. Electric is cheap in Thailand , and no "pay-back" meters (where excess electric earns you money)means its not yet viable from a finance point. The above system will "knock the top off the use" , lowering the daytime meter read , but take about 7 or 8 years to pay back - thats not including the loss of capital money (interest), or inflation during that time. Im for alternative energy sources , but there is a longer payback time than most think.

There was a program launched late last year called Solar Rooftop, which provides a sell meter, and a sell rate just under 7 Baht/unit for smaller domestic systems.

The problems I saw with the original version of the program was that the sell rate was not guaranteed in any way, and the house owner had to sign a 25 year (!) supply contract, that had a minimum kWH/month agreement, with penalties for under/no supply not clearly defined. It only achieved a fraction of the expected take up.

Maybe it's been/being re-incarnated? It would explain the sudden spike in promotional activity....

[JeremyBowskill]

Last time I looked at this it didn't really seem to make financial sense, things may have changed in the last couple of years or so though. Or maybe you are doing it for green reasons, rather than financial reasons........

If it can save me for 60.000 or more per year, it makes sense to me;-)

Well so far Dagling nobody has said "I am doing it and saving XXXX", which I think says it all.

[Feesbay John]

Last time I looked at this it didn't really seem to make financial sense, things may have changed in the last couple of years or so though. Or maybe you are doing it for green reasons, rather than financial reasons........

If it can save me for 60.000 or more per year, it makes sense to me;-)

With a Grid Tie you do not need a battery bank and this is the best option as to cost. Depending on your power supply will determine if you do need a battery bank.

Cost of solar has come down a lot over the last 2 years and the figures shown in that attachment are as we say (around) No one can say with solar the exact amount as this depends on the sun and time off year. The average saving per 280w panel is around 200 baht per month. This could be as much as 250 baht or as little as 150 baht, hence why we say around 200 baht.

Ping Solar has been treading in Thailand for 4 years and have many customers that love the fact they are saving each month and helping the world we all live in.

And yes it is OK by us for you to use our estimate, paper work in this forum...

[Gonsalviz]

Depends on the initial cost (RoI approach)

I know in Europe it starts to become more popular... thanks to the governnent's fundings and electricity provider's deals.

Last time I looked at this it didn't really seem to make financial sense, things may have changed in the last couple of years or so though. Or maybe you are doing it for green reasons, rather than financial reasons........

If it can save me for 60.000 or more per year, it makes sense to me;-)

This is not Europe. Thailand doesn't provide incentives.

[Gonsalviz]

Last time I looked at this it didn't really seem to make financial sense, things may have changed in the last couple of years or so though. Or maybe you are doing it for green reasons, rather than financial reasons........

If it can save me for 60.000 or more per year, it makes sense to me;-)

If your monthly bill is BHT4,500 your yearly bill will be BHT54000 so not sure how you will be able to save BHT60,000 or more when you only spend BHT54,000

Anyway, it will probably take you at least 5 years to pay for the solar panels and batteries before you start saving. Still a good idea and you should not have to worry about any power outages.

We have an average power bill of 4,500 baht per month during the year. Some month`s we can have 6000 per month.

Mine can average that too but in Isan there are at minimum 3 months that no aircon is required. I only use one of 3 anyhow.

[Gonsalviz]

4500 Baht sounds like a lot.....

Our complete company uses 20.000 per month

3 aircons 10 hours per day 6 days a week.

2 aircon 12 hours a day 7 days a week

2 aircons 1 hour a day 6 days a week

2-3 aircons 5 hours a day 6 days a week

most aircons are pretty fat

a lot large lights

2 large fridges and a deep freeze

4 older CNC lathes with suction (3 smaller suctions, the bigger one has 4 kW).

10 computers running 10 hours a day 6 days a week.

a lot of supporting electronics.

washing machine

dish washer

So your 4.500 Baht sounds like a lot in compare to my 20.000

Mine has been as high as 8,000 and as low as 3500 but that was when I had no electric for 2 weeks. Average is 5-5500 baht permonth. I use 1 of 3 aircons. The only thing I have odd is that I have to pump water 2 times. Once from the well to holding tanks and again from the tanks to the house.

[Gonsalviz]

Because when I have a power cut, I use a generator 2.7kw and that powers only 1 aircon in my bedroom, so you will need at least 10kw. Do not be fooled by the solar panel salesman, they do not have a clue, and when the aircons are on, forget about using the showers as to do that at the same time you will need at least 15kw. and a massive set of batteries. DO NOT BOTHER. have solar for a bit of water heating or run the computer or tv but the whole house far too expensive initially to ever save any money.

My house runs fine on 5 kva with 3 aircons, unless I want hot water. I have 3 water heaters. each one exceeds the maximum for the generator, so there is no hot water. Even the small wall heaters are going to be 3-3500 watts. So there is a requirement for 8 kva or so unless all aircon compressors are running and the hot water heater kicks in. Then you will need more.

Of course you won't be using it all night long but you also won't be able to connect to the grid while using solar power. Atleast I wouldn't because of the unreliability of the Thai system. There are protection devices but that is another expense.

[Feesbay John]

Why do people keep mixing the Grid Tie and Inverter together. These are 2 different things. The attachment is only for a Grid Tie, It doe's not mention anything about a battery bank or inverter.

Grid Tie,

Takes the power from the solar panels and feeds it into your system.

The size off the Grid Tie doe's not matter to what you can run in your home, it only matter's to how much you are looking at saving each month.

A Grid Tie doe's not power your appliances, it only supply's power to your grid.

Depending on your solar size will depend on how much power and credit you will have for the night time.

Your meter is like your battery bank in the sense off it will turn backwards in the day, given you credit for the night time.

Look at the attachment and work out how much it will cost and how much you will save, this is around the amount of cost and saving's.

UPS Inverter and a battery bank.

This is for people that have no mains, poor mains supply.or just need a backup system.

Depending on what you need to run will depend on the battery bank size and the inverter size.

This is completely different from a Grid Tie and should never be run together. Unless you have a hybrid Grid Tie which can be run together.

Setting a solar system up is one off the main things that has to be right. The panels have to be married to the Grid Tie and the Grid Tie to them. If this is not done right it can take you 3 times longer to get your money back. Example is in the attachment here. Panels setup wrong, Grid Tie not married to the panels, meter did not go backwards, BUT now after setup right the meter is turning backwards. If the roof is not south facing the panel setup is very imported. This was setup by a Solar company in Bangkok, don't ask for there name as I will not give it.

If anyone would like to see this setup our customer is more than happy to show you. This is in Kanchanaburi.

[Guitar God]

I think the simple answer is that you'd need a bit more than the largest system (5.88kw) because your average monthly bill is 4500 and their ad, which I'm assuming are based on the average price per Kwh, and the ad says it will save you 4200 a month.

The 5880w setup plus an extra set of 5x280w panels and grid-tie should net you a 0 baht p/m bill.

The pay-back time may be long but in my opinion it's worth it to have no electric bill for the life of the house. If you sell the house, it's going to be worth more so the math isn't just a matter of initial cost vs savings per month.

There's other things when building or making improvements on a home than just ROI. What's the ROI on my 160k carport? What's the ROI on my higher ceilings, what's the ROI on my pool?

Spending 300k now is peanuts to never see an electric bill for the rest of my life. I'd rather have it paid up front while I have extra money and not have to worry in 10 years that I don't have an extra 5ka month for energy bills.

Except for repairs and moo baan tax I can live there for free, I have a big enough garden to keep me in veggies and Mrs.God in som tam to be almost completely self-sufficient. Ikke som fornuftig?

[Feesbay John]

I think the simple answer is that you'd need a bit more than the largest system (5.88kw) because your average monthly bill is 4500 and their ad, which I'm assuming are based on the average price per Kwh, and the ad says it will save you 4200 a month.

The 5880w setup plus an extra set of 5x280w panels and grid-tie should net you a 0 baht p/m bill.

The pay-back time may be long but in my opinion it's worth it to have no electric bill for the life of the house. If you sell the house, it's going to be worth more so the math isn't just a matter of initial cost vs savings per month.

There's other things when building or making improvements on a home than just ROI. What's the ROI on my 160k carport? What's the ROI on my higher ceilings, what's the ROI on my pool?

Spending 300k now is peanuts to never see an electric bill for the rest of my life. I'd rather have it paid up front while I have extra money and not have to worry in 10 years that I don't have an extra 5ka month for energy bills.

Except for repairs and moo baan tax I can live there for free, I have a big enough garden to keep me in veggies and Mrs.God in som tam to be almost completely self-sufficient. Ikke som fornuftig?

There is many ways we can have a look at what he is using to save him buying more panels. Lights changed to LED will save him, turning TV off instead off leaving them on standby.

BUT having said that having a small bill keeps the piece with the meter company,,,

[dieter1]

best would be trying to use less electicity

- f. e. use of led lights, turning off lights if not needed (f.e. by motion controlled switches...)

- eliminate energy ineficient equipments (old refirigerator, old/not serviced AC, use fan instead/plus AC)

- use mobile meter to get the idea of the real energy use of every equipment (each AC)

-localize main power use equipments )

- avoid heating uo of the bulding (use shade like trees, etc., double roof ..., sun reflecting paint...

- cool house at night by air exchange ...

- use sun to heat up water

many of this can be done without investing much money, - just using brain cells/information/planing

[dieter1]

best would be trying to use less electicity

- f. e. use of led lights, turning off lights if not needed (f.e. by motion controlled switches...)

- eliminate energy ineficient equipments (old refirigerator, old/not serviced AC, use fan instead/plus AC)

- use mobile meter to get the idea of the real energy use of every equipment (each AC)

-localize main power use equipments )

- avoid heating uo of the bulding (use shade like trees, etc., double roof ..., sun reflecting paint...

- cool house at night by air exchange ...

- use sun to heat up water

many of this can be done without investing much money, - just using brain cells/information/planing

Edited September 21, 2014 by dieter1

[Guitar God]

As mentioned above, solar heating of water will reduce your consumption. That technology is more efficient now than photovoltaic cells. My new house has LED lights everywhere we can use them, more efficient and they can be dimmed and last for years. Fan palms are good for shading the 2nd story. Clumping giant bamboo will provide shade for the west side of our house. I wish Thailand would do more to encourage the use of alternate energy sources, we've sure got enough sunlight here.

[IMHO]

Why do people keep mixing the Grid Tie and Inverter together. These are 2 different things. The attachment is only for a Grid Tie, It doe's not mention anything about a battery bank or inverter.

Grid Tie,

Takes the power from the solar panels and feeds it into your system.

The size off the Grid Tie doe's not matter to what you can run in your home, it only matter's to how much you are looking at saving each month.

A Grid Tie doe's not power your appliances, it only supply's power to your grid.

Depending on your solar size will depend on how much power and credit you will have for the night time.

Your meter is like your battery bank in the sense off it will turn backwards in the day, given you credit for the night time.

Look at the attachment and work out how much it will cost and how much you will save, this is around the amount of cost and saving's.

UPS Inverter and a battery bank.

This is for people that have no mains, poor mains supply.or just need a backup system.

Depending on what you need to run will depend on the battery bank size and the inverter size.

This is completely different from a Grid Tie and should never be run together. Unless you have a hybrid Grid Tie which can be run together.

Setting a solar system up is one off the main things that has to be right. The panels have to be married to the Grid Tie and the Grid Tie to them. If this is not done right it can take you 3 times longer to get your money back. Example is in the attachment here. Panels setup wrong, Grid Tie not married to the panels, meter did not go backwards, BUT now after setup right the meter is turning backwards. If the roof is not south facing the panel setup is very imported. This was setup by a Solar company in Bangkok, don't ask for there name as I will not give it.

If anyone would like to see this setup our customer is more than happy to show you. This is in Kanchanaburi.

Seeing as you're obviously involved in Ping Solar, can you please advise what's needed to implement a grid-tie system in Thailand, if you're not part of the official Solar Rooftop program?

i.e. What permits are needed? are there any duties to notify the PEA/MEA? Must you use only grid-tie inverters that a pre-approved by the PEA/MEA? Are there any inspections/approvals required before commissioning? etc.