Canadian Government invalidating passports of Canadians who joined extremist groups

[DoctorB]

As a Canadian, I am pleased to read this news and hope that the U.K. and the U.S.A. do likewise to passport holders who abuse their nation's generosity in order to create chaos.

The UK has been removing citizenship and, where citizenship cannot be removed, cancelling passports. It's even been confiscating passports, which is a bit much in a country where employers are scared stiff of employing natural-born citizens born overseas but lacking passports or consular birth certificates.

The USA cannot remove citizenship for crimes let alone on suspicion - so doing has been declared unconstitutional by its Supreme Court.

I'm astonished you say this.

In most of the discussions I've seen on this topic, here in the UK, the leftists and liberals have repeated, in four part harmony, that cancelling a person's passport while he is overseas is likely to render that person stateless, and thus violate their human rights; and is thus unacceptable, even if he is waging jihad. While it is true that a Uk passport is the property of HM Government it is only ever likely to be cancelled or withdrawn while the person is still in the Uk, and he is hardly likely to announce his violent intentions in advance of travelling.

Britain's particular interpretation of human rights, as being above all other considerations, has made us the laughing stock of the world, and I can only say, "Good on you Canada".

[tinhead]

Having a passport is a privilege, not a right.

This is Bu***hit. What if you were born in Canada or Australia? Should the state have the right to relieve you of your citizenship just because they do not agree with your political ideologies? This sets a dangerous precedent. One day times may change and they might decide to remove the citizenship of other groups of people that oppose their views.

Maybe it will be you one day, getting your passport yanked, and stranding you in another country, for nothing more than voting for the opposition, or broadcasting your views on the Governments corruption, or whatever else they may dream up, when you are an irritant to them.

I am surprised not one of the previous posters is agains this type of overzealous action. Whatever happened to the concept of personal freedom? Or are you all to wrapped up in your self righteousness that you can't see the danger here?

[hawker9000]

Nothing but purest common sense. Canada doing something right. The OP incorrectly states that the action "strands" Canadian fighters in Syria and Iraq. Some posters have incorrectly claimed that the action deprives Canadians of citizenship. Both are simply incorrect, as other posters have pointed out.

The linked Ottawa Citizen article is worth reading before going off on a flail.

Edited September 21, 2014 by hawker9000

[Richard W]

In most of the discussions I've seen on this topic, here in the UK, the leftists and liberals have repeated, in four part harmony, that cancelling a person's passport while he is overseas is likely to render that person stateless, and thus violate their human rights; and is thus unacceptable, even if he is waging jihad.

Unfortunately, I can't find the reports of passports being cancelled that I had seen. The Iranians travelling on stolen passports on MH370 showed that one could probably get home to the UK on a revoked UK passport - unless the UK managed to refuse permission to board. Much of the discussion is confused by people conflating loss of passport with loss of citizenship. In general a revoked passport remains prima facie evidence of nationality, though one would need to check that it hadn't revoked because of loss of nationality.

The best evidence I could find, which is not very good, is an answer by Mr Hague (so strictly, not his pigeon) on 16 June 2014 about the issue of British nationals fighting in Syria and Iraq:

We are having many conversations in government and, of course, with other Governments about how to prevent that. As my hon. Friend will understand, if a British national leaves via a third country and ultimately travels to Syria over the border of one of Syrias neighbours, it is very difficult for us in the UK to know about that. We advise strongly against all travel to Syria and have made it very clear that the Home Secretary will not hesitate to use her powers to withdraw passports and cancel leave to remain in the United Kingdom and that our security forces will make arrests wherever there is the appropriate evidence. People can be absolutely sure that we will be extremely vigilant about this issue.

It's quite possible that he said 'withdraw passports' when he mean 'remove citizenship'. Edited September 21, 2014 by Richard W

[Richard W]

If you were born in Canada they can not revoke your citizenship,..

Are you sure? I couldn't find anything in the Strengthening Canadian Citizenship Act that said it couldn't be done; rather Clause 10 of the amended Citizenship Act seems to allow it if you are a dual national.

[Soutpeel]

that cancelling a person's passport while he is overseas is likely to render that person stateless, and thus violate their human rights; and is thus unacceptable

No it doesnt, cancelling a passport is not the same as revoking somones citizenship, the person is not stateless in the case of a PP being revoked.

[Somtamnication]

Canada, a sensible nation. Should have moved there years ago.

[cacruden]

If you were born in Canada they can not revoke your citizenship,..

Are you sure? I couldn't find anything in the Strengthening Canadian Citizenship Act that said it couldn't be done; rather Clause 10 of the amended Citizenship Act seems to allow it if you are a dual national.

Revoking citizenship cannot be done if you are born in Canada UNLESS you have become a citizen somewhere else that has granted you citizenship (International Law) -- i.e. you cannot make a citizen stateless.

Don't think the courts have ever ruled on revocation of citizenship, since the government has not implemented a law to do that yet -- so the rest would be speculative.

Revoking a passport is not the same as revoking citizenship, revoking a passport only serves to force an individual to return to the country of the passport as their next and final trip.

[Ulic]

While I am glad the Canadian government has taken this action I don't think it is as clear cut or simplistic as people think. During WW 2, many Americans not agreeing with there governments position of neutrality travelled to Canada and Britain to join the fight against the Nazis. In Britain's struggle fighting against the IRA, the Boston Irish raised money and supported the IRA. When the British government complained to the Americans the complaints fell on deaf ears. "Not our problem" No terrorism in America, it's your problem" How times have changed. The Nazis called the French underground "Terrorists" Most people think of them as "Freedom Fighters" Maybe those joining the fight against Assad are fighting the just fight and those fighting for an independent Islamic State are terrorists. I don't care for either. It is an internal civil war and they and

there neighbours should be sorting it out. Canada, USA, Australia, Europe should stay out of it. Medalling in another countries affairs, Iran (from the 50's) Iraq, Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya has not worked out so well. I don't have the answer, and I don't think the Americans do either.

[Richard W]

that cancelling a person's passport while he is overseas is likely to render that person stateless, and thus violate their human rights; and is thus unacceptable

No it doesnt, cancelling a passport is not the same as revoking somones citizenship, the person is not stateless in the case of a PP being revoked.

At what stage does cancelling a passport become effective if no physical change is made to the passport? Revoking a passport to stop its holder travelling seems fraudulent if the holder retain his nationality - the holder is still the same person and still has the same nationality!

[kamahele]

This is Bu***hit. What if you were born in Canada or Australia? Should the state have the right to relieve you of your citizenship just because they do not agree with your political ideologies? This sets a dangerous precedent. One day times may change and they might decide to remove the citizenship of other groups of people that oppose their views.

Maybe it will be you one day, getting your passport yanked, and stranding you in another country, for nothing more than voting for the opposition, or broadcasting your views on the Governments corruption, or whatever else they may dream up, when you are an irritant to them.

I am surprised not one of the previous posters is agains this type of overzealous action. Whatever happened to the concept of personal freedom? Or are you all to wrapped up in your self righteousness that you can't see the danger here?

They didn't revoke their citizenship, they revoked their passports. In this case it is more than a disagreement with a political ideology, they are trying to prevent murder which is the intent of those joining this group.

[hawker9000]

If your home country knows you're in or headed to Whereverstan, they simply notify W+11 and whoever else they think might be on your itinerary, and from that point on that passport number will come up as invalid when checked by an Immigration Officer. Maybe they share the info with Interpol. The international community seems to be sharing more & more information, esp. on blacklisted individuals. If you're the holder of a passport that's been revoked, and you're already abroad, I think it's possible that immigration authorities might know about the revocation even before you do. Data networks make it all possible; it's just a question of officials in different countries agreeing to coordinate with each other.

[NoBrainer]

My original post (#13) was taken out of context by most of the members who responded to it.

I was not trying to defend the rights of people to fly around the world & join freedom fighters in other countries, with the precept of causing death & destruction.

I was trying to point out that this was a slippery slope, which could end up with countries cancelling peoples Passports, or Citizenship, for reasons other that

what they purport to be using here, to justify their actions. Where is due process? Where are the checks & balances mechanisms?

Who decides & under what evidentiary rules, on who's Passport / Citizenship can be revoked. Are Bureaucrats left to make these decisions?

Is there a formal hearing? Is it ever brought before a court? What is the procedure to appeal such an action?

You see there are many unanswered questions.

I was merely trying to point out that when Governments get out of control, (as evidenced by history) that you could be the next person having your rights trampled on

for any number of reasons, which were the flavour of the day. That is reality

So please don't take my post as a vote of support for the jihadists.

[Jonmarleesco]

UK, take note!

[Richard W]

Maybe they share the info with Interpol.

Apart from possible private lists (UK, EU), the information appears in the Interpol Stolen and Lost Travel Document (SLTD) database, which is beginning to become available to airlines as well as to governments. It gives sufficient information as to why passports are invalid that airlines may be fined for carrying some from the US on a stolen or lost passport, but may carry someone on a revoked passport.

[F430murci]

Gotta love this one! Interesting read.

--------

Ottawa blocks Canadian from getting Syrian husband out of danger

Woman from Calgary forced to choose: Leave him there or risk her life and stay

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calgary/ottawa-blocks-canadian-from-getting-syrian-husband-out-of-danger-1.2772266

[hawker9000]

Maybe they share the info with Interpol.

Apart from possible private lists (UK, EU), the information appears in the Interpol Stolen and Lost Travel Document (SLTD) database, which is beginning to become available to airlines as well as to governments. It gives sufficient information as to why passports are invalid that airlines may be fined for carrying some from the US on a stolen or lost passport, but may carry someone on a revoked passport.

I thought there was something like that already in existence; 'just couldn't remember where I'd recently heard it mentioned. So if someone does manage to get their passport revoked, there IS a place immigration officers (as well as airlines soon) can find out about it.

Thing is, though, weren't those passports allegedly stolen in Thailand and later used to board MH370 in KL actually listed in that database? (Very large list, BTW, if I remember correctly, and growing by leaps & bounds each year...)

Edited September 25, 2014 by hawker9000

[Mosha]

I used a gender specific pronoun (man) when discussing evolution in a Canadian Government employee coffee shop. I am now labeled as a dangerous extremist dinosaur by the omnipresent obese feminist shock troops.

My brother's BIL was a fire chief in W. Yorks. He was hauled over the coals for ordering a white coffee. That was early 90s!

[boomerangutang]

Canada, alright! European countries and the US are considering the same. There are several hundred Jihadist fighters just from Germany. Yank those passports, yea! If they want to get crazy and kill infidels, let 'em rant and scream Allah Akbar in the dunes. "Muhammad, it's your turn to gather more camel shit for the fire."

[Richard W]

Thing is, though, weren't those passports allegedly stolen in Thailand and later used to board MH370 in KL actually listed in that database? (Very large list, BTW, if I remember correctly, and growing by leaps & bounds each year...)

At the time, airlines weren't allowed access. Government passport checks on exit tend not to be thorough. I think the stolen passports were for getting to Europe, not for entering a European country. Airlines getting access is a result of the loss of MH370.

[tifino]

Now:

any young fella from Australia, heading over there to one of the nominated hotspots, now has the onus placed upon him to provide evidence to the Authorities that he's not going anywhere for Jihad etc

Later:

The Govt would be only too happy in future to divert a Herc' to bring back a 'born' National's flyblown corpse in a box

[hawker9000]

Now:

any young fella from Australia, heading over there to one of the nominated hotspots, now has the onus placed upon him to provide evidence to the Authorities that he's not going anywhere for Jihad etc

Later:

The Govt would be only too happy in future to divert a Herc' to bring back a 'born' National's flyblown corpse in a box

Well, it sort of DOES seem like an insanely BAD idea to be touristing to Iraq or Syria these days... I would think that most people who actually DO have a legitimate reason to go to these places would be in a position to provide the reason. I know it's an "intrusion", but I guess most govts would rather have to apologize for being nosy than for a beheading or other terrorist act that might've been prevented. Anyway, blame it on Islam, not the government concerned.

[ozsamurai]

Australia is now following suit

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/authorities-cancel-australian-passports-of-three-men-suspected-of-going-to-fight-for-terrorist-groups-overseas/story-fnii5s41-1227072701180

Authorities cancel Australian passports of three men suspected of going to fight for terrorist groups overseas

Oz

[hawker9000]

A question of good vs better I suppose, but if only outbound immigration could somehow coordinate the known destinations of these future psychopaths with the targeteers over there. You know, so they could organize a warm reception. Sort of a workaround for the whole passport thing.

Or "best"? Slip a tiny little GPS device into their baggage, cellphone, laptop, whatever.... So the guys flying the attack drones know right where to look...

Edited September 30, 2014 by hawker9000