Two Tourists Run Over On Zebra Crossing

[Crossy]

Like Andyfletch I've taken to bashing taxis on the boot, sometimes they slow down to see what they've hit, more often they don't bother.

Why just taxis?

Only 'coz they're the main offenders.

[Kerryd]

Traffic enforcement would go a long way to solving the problem. Unfortunately, except for the odd helmet crackdown, you hardly ever see the police enforcing any traffic laws.

Those intersections with the count-down timers are a joke. People see the time clicking down and even though they may be 100 meters or more away, they speed up and hit the intersection at full-speed after the lights have changed.

This problem is made worse by the people waiting to go, who anticipate the light change by watching the timer. They then jump the gun, entering the intersection before the lights change.

Many of our "home" countries have had generations of decent traffic enforcement, by police that are (usually) hard to bribe. We have driver education programs and stiff penalties for those that cross the line.

Part of the problem here seems to be that traffic enforcement is too demeaning of a task for high-ranking officers (sergeants and above, and officers). Unfortunately, most of the police force seems to be made up of officers and people in the rank of sergeant and above, leaving very few to do the low level, "non-sexy" jobs like enforcing traffic laws.

[Losangels]

Part of the problem here seems to be that traffic enforcement is too demeaning of a task for high-ranking officers (sergeants and above, and officers). Unfortunately, most of the police force seems to be made up of officers and people in the rank of sergeant and above, leaving very few to do the low level, "non-sexy" jobs like enforcing traffic laws.

Notice whether there is police directing traffic the flow of traffic is much worse?

[Plus]

No, I usually pray for cops to be there when I hit the difficult places. U-turns without police are a major headache - one or two lanes are always blocked, on both sides. In some places cops add extra lane, put out cones and so on. Getting off topic, though.

They shouldn't have pedestrian crossings on four-lane roads without a safety isle in the middle, too dangerous.

[King Dong]

Theres no such thing as a pedestrian crossing in this country, they should be treated like any other peice of road with a section marked where a lot of people cross.

If you treat them like crossings as you would elsewhere, you'll end up dead. A lot of drivers actually speed up, to indicate to the pedestrians that their not stopping. I doubt this is mentioned in the lonley planet tho, hence the problems

The only motor vehicles which give way to pedestrians are taxis when they have no fare.

[marquess]

Theres no such thing as a pedestrian crossing in this country, they should be treated like any other peice of road with a section marked where a lot of people cross.

If you treat them like crossings as you would elsewhere, you'll end up dead. A lot of drivers actually speed up, to indicate to the pedestrians that their not stopping. I doubt this is mentioned in the lonley planet tho, hence the problems

The only motor vehicles which give way to pedestrians are taxis when they have no fare.

The Ped Crossings, are here, but you can see the level of importance attached to them. As sometimes when you look above, you can see the white and blue illuminated sign, but the when you look for the crossing it has long since worn away. These tragic events won't really make any difference to law enforcement! A few fine words, and feigned concern by officials, and then we will be back to square one! My commiserations to the families of both those who were killed!

[John K]

This is indeed a tragedy. In the states pedestrians have the right of way, here what ever is bigger has the right of way. Earlier this week I posted in the “700 poor people will be given artificial legs this month” thread. I made note that a legless beggar crossed the street faster than me. The traffic does not care how many legs you have or if you have a flag.

For me one time I was crossing Sukhumvit at the corner of soi 4 with about 50 other people. A motorcycle came around the corner from soi 3 and blasted through the crowd knocking down 3 people and having others jump for cover. He did not even stop and in a few seconds was out of sight. That was 3 in the afternoon.

Do they issue drivers licences here or not?

[petedk]

Maybe they should install red lights on demand - if someone is crossing the road he pushes the button and in 10 seconds the light turns red for cars and green for him.

There's one like that on Praditmanutham rd - the one that runs under Ekkamai Ramintra express way and it works. Cars also see countdown to the red.

The case of a backhow running over two people is ridiculous, if it wasn't true.

Sorry mate, they don't work either. There are 2 of these on Asoke Road. I use the one near Rutanin Eye Hospital and Srinakarinwiroj University. Cars, motorcycles, trucks and buses ALL continue over the red light. I have seen 2 students hit by motorcycles there.

Sometimes there are a couple of cops about 50 metres further down the road and all they do is wave the traffic on. It's all one big joke.

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, they work in CM, but at least 50% of road users just plough on through them - there is not enough law enforcement - I think it is much more important than helmet checks - if someone is as stupid to ride a bike without a helmet then, on their own head ge it (pardon the pu). But, pedestrians should be able to cross roads without fear of getting mowed into, by all manner of road vehicles, when the lights are on red.

I couldnt agree more.

The other thing to do is what Tytus mentioned - Make REAL demands of people before issuing them a license. Both in terms of theory and practice.

The current requirements to get a driving license are far too low.

[mrrpie]

I understand that the road they were crossing was a multi lane (3 or 4 lanes) "one way " road and they thought that the traffic was all coming from one direction. What they didn't realise was that the lane immediately in front of them was a bus lane, with traffic coming from the direction opposite to the main flow, and walked almost directly in front of a slow moving JCB....Bald tyres or not, he had little chance of seeing them because of the location of the cab, let alone being able to stop.

[samran]

I must admit, as a pedestrian it pisses me off no end that zebra crossings are dangerous places.

Having said that, I don't think they are well marked. As a driver, I'm regularly on top of it before I notice that it is there, whereas OS they are very clearly marked, so you know you have to stop.

Whatever he case it is academic anyway, even if they were well marked, driver education here is minimal, so they'd be ignored rather than simply not seen.

[george]

BMA driver is jailed for deaths of two tourists

BANGKOK: -- The driver of a Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) tractor that ran over and killed two foreign tourists was jailed yesterday pending further investigation.

Norwegian Hanne Karlsen and Briton Garry Thomas, both aged 28, were killed on Tuesday while using a pedestrian crossing on Larnluang Road in the capital.

Both had been holding pedestrian flags, which are used as a signal for motorists to stop, as they crossed the road.

Tractor driver Saichol Innork, 34, said he was not speeding and did not see the victims. He has been charged with reckless driving that caused death.

Major Akkarapol Chaem-choy of Nang Lerng Police Station took Saichol into custody and said that police would call witnesses and gather enough evidence for public prosecutors to consider within one month.

The BMA has offered its condolences to the victims' families and will pay compensation, city clerk Khunying Nathanon Thavisin said.

The families had already been contacted by their respective embassies.

The official sum for compensation in such cases is up to Bt1 million, but if the families request a higher amount the city will find the funds, Nathanon said.

She said traffic laws would be more strictly enforced, and the pedestrian-flags project would be reviewed and made more effective.

The BMA requested that Saichol, who is employed by the Public Works Department, be granted bail because he did not flee the scene.

Its initial investigation found that Saichol's view had been obstructed by the vehicle's crane, Nathanon said.

Deputy BMA spokesman, Thanom Onketpol, said Saichol would be disciplined and perhaps fired.

An official at the BMA Traffic and Transport Department said the pedestrian-flags project was not a BMA initiative but was set up by community and district leaders.

Traffic police are overworked during rush hours and are unable to provide enough assistance to pedestrians, said the official who asked not to be named.

The BMA has 34 pedestrian crossings with signs that count down the time it will take for the lights to change, 50 with normal traffic lights and a further 600 with flashing yellow lights, the official said.

--The Nation 2006-07-20

[sprq]

I occasionally drive past Camillian Hospital in Thonglor and I've never seen a red light there. There's a major turn into the soi that lead to Ekamai and there might be a flashing yellow over it, that's all.

I haven't been to Asoke for a long time, don't remember any pedestrian operated lights.

I know they have them in Chiang Mai and they usually work. Pushing that button is the only way to cross the road not on red.

You should go back to Thonglor and look more carefully, then. The previous poster was dead right. And anyone who trusts to the green light for pedestrians may well be plain dead -- it's completely pot luck whether vehicles stop or not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

[Charma]

BMA driver is jailed for deaths of two tourists

Tractor driver Saichol Innork, 34, said he was not speeding and did not see the victims. He has been charged with reckless driving that caused death.

Its initial investigation found that Saichol's view had been obstructed by the vehicle's crane, Nathanon said.

--The Nation 2006-07-20

Bit of a change of story here. The original article stated:

"Mr Saichon said there was a problem with his brakes. He was driving back from a landscaping site and as he approached the hotel he spotted the two tourists but was unable to stop his vehicle"

Perhaps this second version came out after the BMA lawyer spoke to him!

[sprq]

Two tourists run over on zebra crossing

WASSAYOS NGAMKHAM

Two foreign visitors were crushed to death by an excavator as they held aloft road safety flags while crossing a busy road in Bangkok yesterday.

British tourist Gary Thomas Chambers, 28, and his Norwegian girlfriend Hanne Karlsen, 20, were seen waving the flags to alert passing traffic before stepping out onto the pedestrian crossing in front of the Princess Hotel on Lan Luang road in Pomprap Sattruphai district.

A witness said the two were then hit by an eight-wheel backhoe. The heavy vehicle mowed them down in the bus lane, crushing them both to death.

Pol Maj Akarachai Chamchoi, inspector of Nang Loeng station, said each of the tourists was carrying a safety flag. The flags were placed on the roadside so pedestrians could use them to signal oncoming vehicles to stop _ part of a government road safety campaign called ''Safe Crossing With Flags''.

Pol Maj Akarachai said the excavator belonged to the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration. The driver, Saichon Innork, 35, a city employee, was charged with reckless driving.

Mr Saichon said there was a problem with his brakes. He was driving back from a landscaping site and as he approached the hotel he spotted the two tourists but was unable to stop his vehicle. Police said the tyres had almost no tread.

My reaction: first horror, then a grim hilarity at this absolutely classic Thai story of total cross-cultural misunderstanding coupled with loony traffic management. You couldn't make it up, even after 25 years in the country. From start to finish, it's a gem. And yes, I'm very sorry for the friends and family of these two.

[sprq]

BMA driver is jailed for deaths of two tourists

BANGKOK: -- The driver of a Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) tractor that ran over and killed two foreign tourists was jailed yesterday pending further investigation.

Norwegian Hanne Karlsen and Briton Garry Thomas, both aged 28, were killed on Tuesday while using a pedestrian crossing on Larnluang Road in the capital.

Both had been holding pedestrian flags, which are used as a signal for motorists to stop, as they crossed the road.

Tractor driver Saichol Innork, 34, said he was not speeding and did not see the victims. He has been charged with reckless driving that caused death.

Major Akkarapol Chaem-choy of Nang Lerng Police Station took Saichol into custody and said that police would call witnesses and gather enough evidence for public prosecutors to consider within one month.

The BMA has offered its condolences to the victims' families and will pay compensation, city clerk Khunying Nathanon Thavisin said.

The families had already been contacted by their respective embassies.

The official sum for compensation in such cases is up to Bt1 million, but if the families request a higher amount the city will find the funds, Nathanon said.

She said traffic laws would be more strictly enforced, and the pedestrian-flags project would be reviewed and made more effective.

The BMA requested that Saichol, who is employed by the Public Works Department, be granted bail because he did not flee the scene.

Its initial investigation found that Saichol's view had been obstructed by the vehicle's crane, Nathanon said.

Deputy BMA spokesman, Thanom Onketpol, said Saichol would be disciplined and perhaps fired.

An official at the BMA Traffic and Transport Department said the pedestrian-flags project was not a BMA initiative but was set up by community and district leaders.

Traffic police are overworked during rush hours and are unable to provide enough assistance to pedestrians, said the official who asked not to be named.

The BMA has 34 pedestrian crossings with signs that count down the time it will take for the lights to change, 50 with normal traffic lights and a further 600 with flashing yellow lights, the official said.

--The Nation 2006-07-20

Just a thought: amongst all the things that might be done in this country to ensure that zebra crossings are safe for pedestrians (public education from infancy, strict law enforcement, etc), the key measure would be the law that the inventors of the zebra crossing, the British, have had in force forever. In British law, if a vehicle as much as touches anybody on a zebra crossing, the driver is in big big trouble. There is no question of witnesses as to what happened, no ifs or buts, the driver is wrong and will pay heavily -- a big fine, loss of licence, even jail. Everybody knows this and consequently using a zebra crossing in Britain is very safe.

At current rates, I'd say Thailand might get round to such a state of affairs shortly before doomsday, which is about 2050, it seems.

[fruittbatt]

It is often said that by Darwin's theory our local friends will soon be the cleaverest people on earth. The idiots are killing themselves at such a rate on the roads, by natural selection they will rule the world in a few short generations.

Yes, the road toll in Thailand is very frightening and out of control but I find your outdated racist social-Darwinism a much greater threat to mutual understanding.

[salween]

It is often said that by Darwin's theory our local friends will soon be the cleaverest people on earth. The idiots are killing themselves at such a rate on the roads, by natural selection they will rule the world in a few short generations.

Yes, the road toll in Thailand is very frightening and out of control but I find your outdated racist social-Darwinism a much greater threat to mutual understanding.

Wow, while I too found the post a wee bit off-putting, I saw the tongue-in-cheek aspect. Generally referring to local drivers as dangerous does not a racist make. Indeed, there are many excellent local drivers too, but on the whole traffic safety is not a high priority here. Some aspect of Darwin's theory can certainly be applied--combine car with bad driver and some selection does occur?

Certainly agree with SPR&Q, It would be a long process if Thailand really did launch a true traffic safety campaign. But whether it’s Thailand or anywhere else in the world these days, does not seem like long-term planning is of much interest. We knew supply limitations on oil would be a problem a long time ago, not to mention the environmental considerations, has much really been done—is much more really being contemplated? But maybe higher oil prices will mean fewer cars and less accidents?

[Plus]

In The Nation yesterday they said that the driver stopped 100m down the road when people shouted at him - that's a third version of what happened.

What do people think about cameras at pedestrian crossings? It's not that difficult to implement, they should switch on only when the light is red. Systems like that have been operational for more than a decade around the world.

If, however, there's no chance that zebra crossings will ever be safe, the question should be how to replace them.

[jdinasia]

leave the cameras on all the time .... The Walking bridges are nice ... but Dayum! I wish they'd make all the steps the same hieght

[Scott]

Again, it's the lack of any kind of enforcement. The gov't keeps coming up with "good ideas", but without enforcement they are worthless and dangerous. If they are going to have Zebra crossings, then enforce it so cars do stop. If they aren't going to, then get rid of the crossing and let everyone fend for themselves.

They also might want to enforce something aboutr vehicles on the road that have obstructed views. I mean, the driver was driving something and couldn't see the road!!

[Plus]

They can install cameras that take pictures of offending cars - it's technological part, imported, of course. Human part must be administered by Thais themselves and we know how good they are at enforcement of anything. Pictures will get lost of deleted, sent to wrong addresses, and even if people do recieve them no one will follow it up. Maybe they should have a fine collector position at every police station, or maybe they should import the entire police force.

[Kerryd]

In British law, if a vehicle as much as touches anybody on a zebra crossing, the driver is in big big trouble. There is no question of witnesses as to what happened, no ifs or buts, the driver is wrong and will pay heavily -- a big fine, loss of licence, even jail.

Canada has similar penalties. How ever, I've found that pedestrians very often are at fault when it comes to accidents at striped crossings.

I've seen numerous instances of people walking along the sidewalk and suddenly turning on to a zebra crossing and expecting the traffic to come to a screeching halt for them.

A car travelling at 40-50 kms/hr doesn't stop in 10-20 feet. Some pedestrians have the attitude that the world revolves around them.

I was driving in a minor snow storm in Winnipeg one year. Had a taxi in the lane next to me (going the same direction). Pedestrian walking along steps out onto the street without even a glance to see if it was clear (I saw the guy for a couple seconds before he got to the crossing). The taxi ended up on the sidewalk and I had to drive into the center divider to avoid this idiot. He never even looked to see if the taxi-driver or I had been hurt trying to avoid him.

Yet if either of us had hit him, we would have gone through hel_l and a crap load of money trying to prove it wasn't our fault.

It's not always the pedestrians fault though. A lot of drivers resent having to slow down/stop at every crossing, especially for idiots that give them little or no warning that they are going to cross. It is proper to stand on the sidewalk at the edge of the crossing and indicate your intent to cross.

This (usually) allows traffic the chance to slow down and stop, though some drivers don't think your serious about crossing until you are halfway across the street.

Here (in Thailand) they are years away from achieving the same standard as is seen in many western countries. A very large part of the problem lays in the lack of enforcement. Get some cops on the streets. Start handing out tickets and suspensions. Start impounding vehicles and making some arrests.

Once the police realize how much money they could be making, you'll see cops on every corner.

Once drivers realize it's going to cost them dearly, they'll start obeying the laws.

Hit them where it hurts the most, in their wallets/purses. Only then will you see any significant change in the attitude of the drivers.

[Plus]

Somehow it's very difficult. They set up check points here and there, at their own discretion, often not authorised, sometimes they catch people running red lights, sometimes they wait for illegal u-turns, or illegal line change, but never at pedestrian crossings yet.

If they started milking money from those motorists at Asoke, people would pay attention to zebra crossings, especially if they are fairly consistent.

It's about forming, and enforcing a habit.

[qualtrough]

While no doubt well-intentioned, the flag idea is monumentally stupid in that it provides a totally false sense of security as these two poor people found out. A very, very sad and horrible story.

Changing the behavior of Thai drivers is probably going to take generations, if it happens at all. Perhaps the most important thing I would tell a newcomer here is that they should never, ever, assume that traffic will be coming from only one direction on one-way streets. A one-way street is just a recommendation and will see two way traffic from anyone too lazy to take the long way 'round. In fact, as anyone who has been in BKK for more than a few hours can tell you, it is important to look for vehicles even when you are on the sidewalk. Never dart across the sidewalk to grab a bus as you might get broadsided by a motorbike.

[roamer]

Suk soi 71 has probably one of the most dangerous traffic flow "innovations" I have ever seen, putting cones down one side of where the road is divided by metal railings on the traffic island where people cross, its kind of natural to step off looking in the direction where you expect the traffic to be coming from. Its been the cause of many serious accidents, mostly Thais, nothing changes. After they wipe the blood up the cones go down again.

[sibeymai]

Roamer, don't forget the other wonderful innovation on Suk 71, those cats eyes they put down the centre of the road which is commonly used by motorcycles heading in either direction. Now apart from swerving in and out to dodge oncoming traffic, the rider also needs to concentrate on missing the oversized catseyes instead on concentrating on the traffic around them. I wonder how many have lost their lives over this fabulous innovation.

If the government wanted to reward some government politician who has a factory making these devices with a fat contract, why install them on Suk 71 where they do not contribute to road safety at all. Better off sending them upcountry where on a dark and rainy night, they might actually save some lives. Ah, but this is Thailand.

[the gent]

The difficulty facing Thai environmentalists struggling to reconcile the differing and conflicting needs of pedestrians and drivers is the inescapable fact that the Thai are less intelligent than others, according to a recent article in the Nation.

Now which expat denizen could possibly argue with that?

Personally speaking, if one needs an edge in traversing the capital's byeways might I recommend waving a white flag and, possibly, a little money?

[Plus]

Oh, the cones on Suk 71, police make an extra lane for inbound traffic, great help.

[Sulaphat]

The cynic in me says that the real question in the mind of the officials is whether the foreign tourists had proper work permits for operating the crossing flags.

My condolences to the family and friends of the deceased.