Thai condo law question

[Vermor]

The Condo Act does state:

Section 17/1

In the case where a space in the condominium is set aside as a place to carry out the business, the system on entering and exiting such area shall be specifically set up in order to prevent the disturbance on the peaceful enjoyment of the joint owners.

No person shall be permitted to engage in any trade transactions in the condominium except it is a trade transaction in the area of the condominium designated in accordance with paragraph one.

Q Is renting out a room a ‘trade transaction’?

Also renting out the room is not actually the problem.

The co –owners who rents out a room also ‘rents out’ the common area-without the permission of the other co –owners.

This particular section is basically means as least to me if I rent out a room to someone who end up turning that room into selling clothes like a store front etc.. with people coming and going which violating the possible safety or quiet enjoying of the other tenants or owners.

1st sentence is : "In the case where a space in the condominium is set aside as a place to carry out the business".

So this is related to an inside bar,resto,massage,etc... A special space that is not residential but a business.

Usually, in the contract (wether leasehold or freehold), there should be a section where you cant use your unit as a business. Means you cant add your unit as the adress of your company. Renting out or having guests is not a business, and Owner should be restricted to advertise it on some channels ( but it s not really well controlled). The developper of our condo still own at least 30% of the units...and he manage to advertise it on a popular hotel channel.

To the Question : "Does owner rents out the common area ? " Yes,but they own it, they pay a % based on the area that they own. So if the russian "agent' own 15%, he ll pay 15% of the common area fee, while you ll pay maybe 0,5%

"Without permission of the co-owner ?" False, this should be voted during an AGM : During a meeting, we had a discution about some owners that would like to allow access to swimming pool only for owners on some days ( like every Monday and Wednesday), just an example.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Vermor

[KittenKong]

The difference is with you just as you pointed out Russians...

Please get your facts straight. Russians were mentioned in the OP, presumably because in his building it is Russians who are causing the problem. I personally dont care what nationality people who annoy me are.

How often a owner use or not use the facility is not relevant it is not stated in the CCR or when the purchase was made! Just not relevant and can't hold water in a court of law unless it is stated in the CCR. Your other suggestion wouldn't hold up in a court of law in the States. Aside from your personal views and dislike of what is going on it really has no bearing unless it is a violation of the CCR, unless it was stated at the time of purchased. Sure you can vote and pass but if I was a buyer and had personally brought into a Condo because I love swimming and the workout facility and was sold as unlimited use and now you change the rules without any substantial proof that my overuse of the pool and the other facility your condo president would be hearing from my lawyer!

Your lawyer would have nothing to say, nor is what happens in the States at all relevant. The whole point of having building regs and votes and committees and AGMs is that the building regs can be improved and adjusted as situations change. This can be done quite legally by vote at the AGM or EGM, in accordance with specific definitions of a majority, and I just pointed out the sort of things that I personally would vote for. Whether you like it or not I am entitled to my opinion and can use my vote as I wish, just as you can vote as you like.

[DoddoMan19]

First off, is the guy reporting all the renters to immigration ? The law requires all hotels or people renting to inform immigration of all renters every day. If he is not report him to immigration.

Second, does he have a work permit to be doing this business? If not report him to immigration.

Third, does he have a license to run a business and is he paying taxes on the income ? Again, if not report him.

I would normally say mind your own business but this guy is bothering everyone and is not treating your building or other owners correctly. He is taking advantage !

If he is following all the rules with the government laws and the building then all you can do is get 51% of the owners to agree and change the building laws.

Is there a reasonable way it can be negotiated so that he bears a higher proportion of these costs? I guess it's difficult to organize within those condominiums. Are the neighbors having the same complaints?

[pepi2005]

I think it wouldn't need much more than banning several of his guests from the premises for violating the house rules (with him having to return the money to his customers) to make him stop investing in this building.

Edited September 27, 2014 by pepi2005

[pepi2005]

Short Term rental (under 1 month) is illegal in a condominium.

this is the first time I've ever heard of that.

Where can I find this regulation in the Thai Condomium Act?

[KittenKong]

Short Term rental (under 1 month) is illegal in a condominium.

this is the first time I've ever heard of that.

Where can I find this regulation in the Thai Condomium Act?

As far as I know the restriction is not in the Condo Act but is in the laws relating to hotels which require that you have a hotel licence if you want to do hotel-style (ie short-term) rentals. But I am not a lawyer.

[cheeryble]

Short Term rental (under 1 month) is illegal in a condominium.

this is the first time I've ever heard of that.

Where can I find this regulation in the Thai Condomium Act?

As far as I know the restriction is not in the Condo Act but is in the laws relating to hotels which require that you have a hotel licence if you want to do hotel-style (ie short-term) rentals. But I am not a lawyer.

To suggest they have turned into a hotel is a wish-fulfilling interpretation?

IMO if any residents, permanent or temporary, break any condo rules related to noise or misuse of pool, then there should be rules to deal with them. The managers job is to enforce the rules and an infirmaries heet issued to all incoming residents may help.

If they do not break any rules no problemo. If your rules aren't tight enough to save you from annoyance get a democratic agreement to enhance them.

OP: I still haven't heard a word about speaking to the chap in question.

Instead of building into a rage according to how you think the world should be have a chat and express yourself.

Some hard working people might prefer to have a holiday in a more private environment like your building.

Most of them are probably perfectly decent.

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Edited September 27, 2014 by cheeryble

[thailand49]

The difference is with you just as you pointed out Russians...

Please get your facts straight. Russians were mentioned in the OP, presumably because in his building it is Russians who are causing the problem. I personally dont care what nationality people who annoy me are.

How often a owner use or not use the facility is not relevant it is not stated in the CCR or when the purchase was made! Just not relevant and can't hold water in a court of law unless it is stated in the CCR. Your other suggestion wouldn't hold up in a court of law in the States. Aside from your personal views and dislike of what is going on it really has no bearing unless it is a violation of the CCR, unless it was stated at the time of purchased. Sure you can vote and pass but if I was a buyer and had personally brought into a Condo because I love swimming and the workout facility and was sold as unlimited use and now you change the rules without any substantial proof that my overuse of the pool and the other facility your condo president would be hearing from my lawyer!

Your lawyer would have nothing to say, nor is what happens in the States at all relevant. The whole point of having building regs and votes and committees and AGMs is that the building regs can be improved and adjusted as situations change. This can be done quite legally by vote at the AGM or EGM, in accordance with specific definitions of a majority, and I just pointed out the sort of things that I personally would vote for. Whether you like it or not I am entitled to my opinion and can use my vote as I wish, just as you can vote as you like.

No Association rules or members or owners can vote or implements rules that is in conflict with laws. For example if owners vote in that they do not want a certain race to be able to rent within their condo. When you say improvement some people believe in banning a certain race or kids is considered a improvement. Yes you are entitled to your opinion but if you want to find a solution to the problem your opinion should have some legal ground to stand on.

Another example if a owner made a proposal to increase the usage you might want to back that up beside a feeling and opinion and maybe go to the management/maintenance and see if there is any evidences, pattern or increase wear and tear which have resulted in a increase in expenses to the Association. Basically one should have some evidence to their proposal otherwise another owner who might disagree on the increase feel that the increase is targeted/discriminating against a particular person or group? And believe it or not no private group like a AGM/EGM is immune from a lawsuit. Many of the concepts / setups and the laws in Thailand are derived from the west including the States..

There are constant number of lawsuits against Association overstepping. Just because a private group decides to purpose and vote for something does not make it o.k.

Last my apologise to the reference to the use of Russians I assume you were the ops when responding since his comments were very similar to yours that much of what he dislike and wanted to do was based on a feeling and opinion. Of course I might be wrong but that is my opinion to your opinion. Personally I have sat in over a number of cases in Arbitration regarding Condo complexes problem such as the ops wrote and all cases goes to the party that can provide evidence to their opinion and feelings. Believe it or not I'm just responding to help the ops find a solution.

Basically, I agree with cheerybie and if the guy is breaking rules and kiss off the problems then I would go tthailand route, as I noted if you did deep enough you can find something to hang him on?

Edited September 27, 2014 by thailand49

[kwaiYai]

cherrybie: "OP: I still haven't heard a word about speaking to the chap in question.

Maybe you missed my post yesterday: "We've just talked about this and he is very thankful for your replies.

He would certainly never snitch on anybody and if nothing can be done legally through the management committee then he will just sell and move out. Although now he is worried about where to move to, as we are surprised by so many similar experiences reported here. If this is the way things are going then I'm even more glad that I sold my condos a few years back when prices were high!"

Again, we are very thankful for your replies but as far as he is concerned the issue is finished.

He has had enough and is moving out.

It is interesting to see though that this debate is going on!

[Maestro]

Short Term rental (under 1 month) is illegal in a condominium. In my condo they are taking a person to court for this. It is the Juristic office that has to do this. So you really have to become active with the other owners and do things through the committee.

I think you are likely to have less problems with people renting for at least a month. In my condo they made it compulsory to register all visitors and tenants must be registered. Then you know what is happening.

Good luck. It is not easy to do. But in my condo everyone is against short term rentals.

This is very interesting and I would be grateful if, once the court case is completed, you would post the result, starting a new topic for it.

[KittenKong]

No Association rules or members or owners can vote or implements rules that is in conflict with laws.

The condo rules in question would be banning short-term rentals and/or imposing a per-hour charge for facilities.

Neither of these rules would be contrary to any law, assuming they are voted in correctly with a legal majority.

Indeed I remember the Thai lawyer who works for our building management saying a couple of years ago that there is no legal problem banning short-term rentals as long as you can raise enough votes to do it. The problem in my building (and in many others) is that votes represented at the AGM rarely exceed 30-40% of the total, which makes it hard to do anything complex or worthwhile. We have to rely on the committee doing things themselves and then presenting them as fait accompli at the AGM, which is not how I would like to see it done.

[thailand49]

Maybe we got off track and I have no problem admitting I might be wrong but if not all, my responses were in regards to the overuse of facilities like the pool, workout rooms, and not regarding short term renting. If there is language in the Condo rules this is a easy fix but the Condo management must have the fortitude to fix it? As I noted in my first post reviewing the Condo rules CCR? reviewing the monthly meeting agenda and especially the upkeep of the budget is a clear indicator to me whether to buy into the place.

Here is my last word and I always hate to see people give up and sell a place they like living because the grass is rarely greener in another place. Many of the Condo Associations I have dealt with were lucky to have a Lawyer on Board because they were also owners and did mostl of the work in lure of their monthly Association fees. Based on the original ops posting I would be really surprised to find that a foreigner has purchased so many units because a guy with this type of money in general would not waste his time. Most likely he has caught on to a idea very popular in the States now called AirBnB in which they lease a house and apartment and then go online and register and advertise it like a hotel but at a much lower cost. I believe he has lease a number of units and is doing this without the Condo understand what is happening. I believe there is a Airbnb for Thailand?

Many Cities now are taking legal action against Airbnb since they have not paid taxes etc.. and now are willing to pay future taxes as long as they are allow to continue to operate although many Cites have laws against it. Currently San Francisco has been on the front page of this fight and while I was just home I had a friend who had a tenant lease out one of their units a year ago and she never live in the unit instead rented it out short term through Airbn week after week online. We contacted her and ask her to stop in violation of the lease subletting, she refused the next day she was served with a 3 day to quit, and thereafter a 30 day eviction noticed in which we came with the sheriff and change the lock and held her possessions. In the end, she lost her deposit and had to pay the court and lawyer fees and we reported her name to IRS. Although many Cities are starting to allow Airbnb to operate because they want the taxes they can not circumvent a Lease agreement which have language on such practice. There are rules in place for reasons and if use properly the system does work sometimes it is a matter of fortitude on the management team?

Your attendance at your Condo meeting are not uncommon in fact it is common and expected no different when we hold Local, State, and Federal elections. You might suggest to change the voting rules and get a lower vote count so things can get done, good or bad, this usually get people to attend because once they're cage gets rattle because something change they do not like they start to attend the meeting. These are the people who I say are in their own world and say " when this this change? "

Good luck everyone!

Edited September 28, 2014 by thailand49

[cheeryble]

I think the same as Thailand 49's sentiment that the grass is rarely greener....

Perfection might be rare to find in a community like a condo building.

If it's not a corrupt or dictatorial management or the fees are too high or its music venues down the road or renovations all the time or a noisy neighbour or the pool's a funny shape so you can't do laps or it's got chlorine water not salt.

And one things for sure.....out of a hundred or more owners you will ALWAYS get a couple of really obnoxious pains in the arse.

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Edited September 28, 2014 by cheeryble

[huawei]

If the condo in all other aspects is well run and the condo fees are reasonable I think you should be thankful . So many instances of office incompetence , lake of repairs, corruption etc..

[KittenKong]

I think the same as Thailand 49's sentiment that the grass is rarely greener....

Perfection might be rare to find in a community like a condo building.

Maybe, but if find something that isnt right I try to improve it rather than just sticking my head in the sand.

If it's not a corrupt or dictatorial management or the fees are too high or its music venues down the road or renovations all the time or a noisy neighbour or the pool's a funny shape so you can't do laps or it's got chlorine water not salt.

Some things are evident before purchase (pool shape, salt/chlorine, high fees) and you only have yourself to blame if you dont like it.

Some things develop over time (bad management, fee increases) and for these there is always the option of voting for change. Indeed most fee increases have to be voted in in the first place.

Noisy and/or inconsiderate neighbours are unpredictable but you can put pressure on the management to put pressure on them. This works in my building. Noise coming from down the road is another matter entirely, but even there complaints can be made. I would imagine that if 500 condo owners complained to the municipality (via the building lawyer) about a nearby noisy karaoke then something might actually happen about it.

One thing that is certain: if no one complains or acts then the problem just goes on forever.

[Sayonarax]

Complain at the owners meeting and rally some supporters before hand.

Hes not breaking the law, unless there's a clause in the owners contract of not sub letting to holiday makers.

[Sayonarax]

The Condo Act does state:

Section 17/1

In the case where a space in the condominium is set aside as a place to carry out the business, the system on entering and exiting such area shall be specifically set up in order to prevent the disturbance on the peaceful enjoyment of the joint owners.

No person shall be permitted to engage in any trade transactions in the condominium except it is a trade transaction in the area of the condominium designated in accordance with paragraph one.

Q Is renting out a room a ‘trade transaction’?

Also renting out the room is not actually the problem.

The co –owners who rents out a room also ‘rents out’ the common area-without the permission of the other co –owners.

Hows he renting out the common area, if its available to be used by all residents?

So renters cant use the pool now because their renting?

[hawker9000]

Complain at the owners meeting and rally some supporters before hand.

Hes not breaking the law, unless there's a clause in the owners contract of not sub letting to holiday makers.

Actually, he MAY be breaking ("ignoring" might be a better word...) immigration/guest reporting & tax laws, as mentioned earlier in this topic.

[KittenKong]

Hes not breaking the law, ....

As previously pointed out, short-term hotel-style rentals are subject to having a hotel licence, which he probably doesn't have. So he probably is breaking the law. But not condo law. He probably isn't declaring the revenue either, which would be another offence.

[mccw]

Once again in case anyone missed it earlier.

Legally a hotel = daily rentals.

Weekly is not hotel legally and is unregulated.

Bottom line is, unless something specifically in your condo rules stating no rentals allowed (highly unlikely) then ................. get over it, move or try to change rules at committee (unlikely and a big head ache). Belly acheing on TV about your bias perceptions of justice don't serve any use at all.

[gk10002000]

Not an uncommon issue with condos everywhere in the world.  That is why there are condo rules, some good, some bad.  Heck the condo nazis at my family place in Florida had gotten to the point of requiring every resident's and tenant's ID, social security number, criminal background checks, knocking on and going door to door etc.  While I understand the ideas behind it, I also think they went too far.  Many people over the years would sub let their unit to snow birds or other long term visitors of months.  Arguably a bit better than the unit sitting closed and shuttered and being un monitored.  The place was never like an air bnb but was starting to get that way as there clearly many many in and out visitors, people at the pool that I didn't know, etc. 

[Crossy]

Things have changed since 2014 when this thread was last active.

 

To avoid confusion I'm going to close it.