Employees coming late everyday

[thairastawoman]

maybe you're not paying them enough and they don't like the job .....

Or maybe you just know nothing about Thai staff, right ?

[Minnehaha]

I have managed several companies here in LOS. One was a 'turn-around' job, and required improving processes, replaced the entire accounting team (sr accountant had been there 10 years), dealt with a dead-beat IT guy who was extremely bright and had great English, except he did not come to work on time, and disappeared for hours. He was also dead drunk on the job more than once. Slept at his desk. However he was one of the most helpful workers when he wanted to be and he had a history of being this way.

I have been to labor court 4 times and have won every time. (Even though I had the choice to pay nothing, I almost always paid something to show kindness, but not anything near what they could have gotten for unlawful termination). Labor court is a big deal here and is stacked against employers.

The Accountant was a good girl, the company just grew up around her and she could not delegate, or adopt a newer more sophisticated accounting system that we needed. She was paid 9 months severance for the years she worked at the company and got to keep her laptop. This was at the owners request, as she was with him from beginning and really did not do anything wrong...

The IT guy was a different situation. I warned him verbally. Then with a letter, which he refused to sign. So I had to call in a witness who read it and then signed it and affirmed that the guy would not sign. I did this again a month later. At the same time, I had a folder on my desk and he had to come in to sign in and out every day. He wrote in the accurate times. This went on for 4 or 5 months. Then I gave him a final verbal warning. We did not need an IT guy anymore. He had morphed into a guy friday, doing projects as needed, but was not really needed or valuable. I tried to fit him in elsewhere and talked openly with him, asking him what he wanted to do. I even offered to help him find another IT job with friends by calling everyone in my network and offering an IT guy.

He screwed it up too many times. I fired him. He left and took us to court. It was an hour of the judge (or official) listening to his case, with me waiting outside. Then I came in and they asked a few questions. They sided with me. He asked for full severance (9 years of work, so 9 months of pay). I declined but offered to give him 2 months and help finding a new job. The court agreed with everything.

Bottom line, you need written warnings and documentation and to be seen as trying to give the person a chance. In reality you should give the person a chance. You need these in case it comes to severance and labor court, and with most Thais, if they are fired they will take you to court because they know Labor court is stacked in their favor. I fired one accountant for incompetence, gave her the required warnings and letters and documentation. She lied about her capabilities, did not honestly do the training I gave at the start and screwed up the financials such that I had bigger problems to deal with. The Labor court sided with me but asked me to pay her some severance because this was the Thai way. I declined, politely, and explained the problems I had to deal with because she lied, etc. I paid her nothing.

Having said this.. employees can change. I have seen it. I am a big supporter of training and ongoing development. I gave staff free personal finance training, in addition to all sorts of other training. You know: record all your expenses for 2 months. Then take the paycheck and divide it into (pick a number) 5 separate envelopes: food, transport, rent, family, savings. And got them all signed up with a personal bank account for savings only, separate from their usual one. In the end, only about 15% of the staff actually adopted the system for more than 6 months. I gave those who stayed with it for more than a year an extra months bonus into the savings account. They had to show me it was not touched at all during the period of time. These staff moved up the responsibility ladder and sadly most left the company, but it was for the better for them. I am in touch with some of them still, and they continue to save.

I believe in both the carrot and the stick when it comes to management. But Thais have never been taught much of anything. You may be surprised to find that some are teachable. And, when in doubt, look for Chinese-Thais.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Minnehaha

[mrblue]

once, in an hotel, I've seen a photo of an employer hanging on a wall... at first I thought it was the "employe of the month", but actually it was the photo of the "always late employe of the month"

maybe a good idea

[Barefoot]

Docking them 5 baht/minute is standard practice for the bars on Walking Street in Pattaya. It doesn't seem to affect tardy behavior much, but it sure does a nice job of reducing payroll!

[forumuser10]

Why are they coming in late every morning ?

Is it because of traffic, taking kids to school , or do they live on "Thai Time" or just to prove they can without any consequences .

When you find that out then maybe the answer will be there too..

There are no reasons for one of them to be late, just lack of motivation because there are no consequences so far. The other one actually does not come late everyday, but quite a lot.

We do not want to fire either of them, and of course we could cut the salary by a lot, but we want to set up reasonable consequences. That is why I want to see how others are dealing with the problem.

[forumuser10]

We have a system in our business which gives a 100 Baht penalty (except for good reasons) for arriving 5 mins late or more. (checked via time clock)

They understand and accept this without much problems.

So if they come 5 min later, they might as well come an hour late, cause they will lose the same amount anyway?

[HidyHo]

...

I believe in both the carrot and the stick when it comes to management. But Thais have never been taught much of anything. You may be surprised to find that some are teachable. And, when in doubt, look for Chinese-Thais.

Very interesting post (just quoted a piece of it) and insight to working with Thais.

[forumuser10]

Written warnings for a start. You can't fire them without a payout, so be prepared to give them their dues.

What sort of work are they doing? Does their tardiness affect the business? Are they male or female (We have found women are usually more responsible employees). How late are they? A few minutes, or more than that? As someone else said, WHY are they late? What is their excuse for this? Have you sat them down and talked with them and discussed their tardiness?

I have talked to them, they say they will get it corrected, but because there are no consequences, they keep doing it. And the biggest problem, they are good employees in all other aspects so we do not want to fire them.

One can ask the question, so if it is no problem, why not let them come late?

Because they influence others, and they should respect the office hours.

So we need to set up a reasonable punishment for coming late.

And I want to hear how others are doing it.

[forumuser10]

I run a restaurant with staff and fingerprint reader. Whoever is late - and I mean ONE minute late = is late. Tip share of that day is cut in half; being late more than one hour means the entire tip share of the day is cut.

We take daily tip readings, list them and pay out once a month (middle of the month)

The share taken away from the late comers goes prorated to all the other staff ..... because they have to work more for their late coming colleague. Twice late in a month = warning letter; three warning letters = out.

That is a good idea with the tip share, but we have set salaries so it would not work for us.

[Keesters]

100 baht fine for first hour or part, 150 baht 2nd hour or part, 200 baht 3rd hour or part increasing 50 baht each hour or part thereof up to 500 baht whole day. That may sound like a lot for minimum wage earners but they must realize that having them missing is worth more than the cost of their wages.

So 1hr 30 ins late would be 250 baht.

However if they phone or text you, before being late, you could reduce it or ignore it if they have good reason.

They will always try and find good reason. I knew a guy who ran a girly bar. He kept good records of each and every excuse each girl came up with. The number of times a girl had 3 parents or 5 grandparents die was incredible.

When I ran a business I had only 2 employees. One would go to lunch and when he came back the other could go. One day the first one went and never came back till 3 months later. When he showed up at the door I said "That was a long lunch". He replied "met a friend at the restaurant (just around the corner) and we went to Chiang Mai". I showed him the way out pronto.

Work ethic doesn't seem to exist here.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Keesters

[forumuser10]

Let them start 15 minutes more early. Still not on time then 20 bath per time as a fine worked very well for us.

So these 2 particular employees should start 8:45 instead of 9:00? It would be an awkward situation.

20 baht salary cut every time they come late? Regardless if 10 min oct 30 min?

[CaptHaddock]

The poor work ethic is certainly a problem one hears a lot about in Thailand. We recently had dinner in an excellent, world-class Italian restaurant in Chiang Mai whose owner/chef, an Italian, was performing every function in the house single-handedly that night: waiter, bus boy, chef, maitre d', etc. While we were leaving he apologized and explained that his staff (2? 3?) failed to show up and failed even to call that night. However, I do notice that some organizations in Thailand seem to manage staff effectively for consistent results, such as, St. Louis Hospital, Tops markets, and 7/11. I wonder if docking a worker's pay for lateness is legal in Thailand. If I were an employer faced with this problem I would research policies of those organizations.

Edited September 24, 2014 by CaptHaddock

[JacChang]

Give them corrective training classes aka punishment.

They will have to stay after work to take these so called classes. Make it as boring as possible, and lecture them. 1 hour atleast. And they would need to come earlier than everyone else let's say 15 mins to start with. If that doesn't work, 30 mins, and so on. Don't force them to come on time, make them want to come on time... or else...

[MobileContent]

We faced this challenges as well with one of our staff. He came always 20-30 minutes late and we asked him to work 30 minutes longer every day. Problem solved.

[wabothai]

Yep, too late in the morning, has to make up for it at the end of the day.

[Pii Kate]

My cleaning lady was consistently late by 45 minutes. I asked her if it would be easier to come at 4 instead of 3. She said yes and now shows up at 3, on time, every time. Go figure!

[sead]

Let them start earlier

[Kabula]

So many worldwide have so many personal and family problems now. Not to mention traffic delays.

Not like back in the day!

Most of the time just sitting down with the employees and listening to their problems, especially with single moms, creates a 'I care atmosphere' and will turn the problems around quickly.

It took me a long time here to learn patience, and going with the flow.

It is important to have other employees who have to take up the slack sit down and explain to the tardy employees in a pleasant way how being late affects their day.

Communication, going with the flow, and a 'I care attitude' works.

[Johnnie99]

I had 65 employees, they never came late or came to me directly explaining why. They were loyal in their work ethic. And they knew they could be replaced easily. Explain what you expect, and don't give them any rope. In 18 months, not 1 person resigned.

But of course we are talking about Thailand, not cloud-cuckoo land

[Pattaya Lous]

They have no respect for you as the owner.

Earn their respect and many of your problems will be resolved.

In my businesses this approach has never failed.

[ldnguy]

learn to live with it or get rid of them, they have never been taught to respect their employer and are just plain lazy, keep looking for the right staff, eventually you might find someone or perhaps wait for asean to kick off

What rubbish. How do you know they are lazy. I always used to arrive late for work but did more work than almost all the other workers. Arriving on time and not getting much done is worse than arriving late and getting lots done. OP doesn't mention his business or what kind of work staff do. Surely how much work they do is more important than arriving on time. Many employers just don't understand that.

[canman]

In my 4 years in Thailand management I found positive reinforcement works far better than the punitive approach. Reward those who are punctual somehow, a small bonus, monthly or 6 monthly dinner or lunch out on the boss etc. Exclude those who have exceeded what ever "lateness" criteria you have set.

[Soutpeel]

learn to live with it or get rid of them, they have never been taught to respect their employer and are just plain lazy, keep looking for the right staff, eventually you might find someone or perhaps wait for asean to kick off

What rubbish. How do you know they are lazy. I always used to arrive late for work but did more work than almost all the other workers. Arriving on time and not getting much done is worse than arriving late and getting lots done. OP doesn't mention his business or what kind of work staff do. Surely how much work they do is more important than arriving on time. Many employers just don't understand that.

I was told the same thing by my department head the first day I walked into an engineering office...dont care what time you arrive, or the time you leave as long as long as the work allocated to you is done and done correctly and funny enough most of my career has been on "flexi-time" I think you find these "bosses" that are so into the "your a minute late" thing are just control freaks and micro managers, the problem may not be with employee or worker but the manager themselves

[sometimewoodworker]

Attendance bonuses and punctuality bonuses are common in Thai factories. That could work for you

[chrissables]

My cleaning lady was consistently late by 45 minutes. I asked her if it would be easier to come at 4 instead of 3. She said yes and now shows up at 3, on time, every time. Go figure!

I was paying a local handyman to come to my house. It started as 4 hours 8am to 12pm, always 20 minutes late. Which meant i was waiting because they were two man jobs. After a few tries at this i said ok, come a 9am............. still 20 minutes late. It was a power thing, in his mind i needed him, so i told him i could do most of the work myself, i was trying to make life easier for myself and help him. Then told him to never come back.

[jpinx]

Attendance bonuses and punctuality bonuses are common in Thai factories. That could work for you

Is that not how 7-11, Tops, etc operate ?

[jbaldwin]

Our condo makes a 300 baht additional monthly payment to each member of staff if:

The have had no unauthorized absence in the month and

They not late for more than 10 mins in aggregate during the month and

They have not received a written warning in the last 12 months.

I understand that scheme like this are very common with Thai employers

[lcp0761]

Written warnings for a start. You can't fire them without a payout, so be prepared to give them their dues.

Regardless if they are good employee's or not, half the battle is merely showing-up "on-time" daily.

1). Issue in writing to all employee's the company policy on what their daily hours of work are. This policy should state infractions and punishment for 1st and 2nd offense, followed by the 3rd offense with suspended time-off and final with dismissal.

2). All employee's should sign a contract with their agreement to the time and attendance policy.

3). Implement and follow-through as inconsistency breeds abuse among fellow workers.

[kurnell]

Written warnings for a start. You can't fire them without a payout, so be prepared to give them their dues.

I always fire them when I get mad and they get only paid for the days they worked.

Who do you want that cheap staff / poor employees do ? Anyway they would loose with us !

Yep, not getting that at all

[jamiesilver]

fingerprint timers are better than time cards, they cannot sign in for their friends...
You can also give them a choice

100 baht for every 5 mins late
Or they make up the time they were late at the end of the shift x2
20 mins late = 40 mins OT
they will soon learn...