Immigration raid targets Digital Nomads in Chiang Mai

[Jonathan Fairfield]

Immigration raid targets Digital Nomads in Chiang Mai

• Armed officers raid PunSpace, a popular ‘co-working’ space in Chiang Mai.

• People on tourist and ED visas targeted.

CHIANG MAI:-- Up to 20 armed uniformed police and immigration officials raided a popular co-working space in Chiang Mai earlier today in an apparent crackdown on foreign nationals working illegally in the city.

The raid resulted in 18 foreign tourists being being taken away in a police van to the immigration office at Chiang Mai airport.

According to a source who was at PunSpace during the time of the raid, immigration officials informed everyone inside that they would detain those who could not produce their passport or prove their identity.

PunSpace, which is located on Sirimangkalajarn Lane, in the Nimman area of the city, is a shared office space which according to its website is a lively co-working space which “offers peaceful and creative working environment” and is regularly used by web developers, online marketers, bloggers, writers and graphic designers.

This latest news seems to indicate a change of policy by Chiang Mai immigration with regards to Digital Nomads, or those working online. Just over a month ago, the Chiang Mai Mail reported that online workers are not prohibited from working without the valid Non-B documentation and work permit.

Following this news, Thaivisa.com has tried to contact PunSpace but no one was available for comment.

Source: johnnyfd.com

-- 2014-10-01

[ourmanflint]

Another pathetic and pointless immigration raid.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Update: The last of us volunteered to come to immigration on our own. We drove there unescorted. Turns out they thought we were employees of Punspace which is untrue. We're all still here but good news so far is that they aren't targetung digital nomads

Interesting to see how this pans out, if they are all released without charge it's quite a validation of the initial reported comments from the Chiang Mai Immigration official regarding it being fine to work remotely so long as the clients were not Thai and payment was not to Thailand.

As another poster pointed out on another thread, at the time a TV member who attended the meeting claimed the report was a misinterpretation / embellished version - I think the outcome of this event is really important in terms of validating or retracting the previous reported remarks.

[carstenp]

Not so bad. Let's take it easy here.seems like a mistake

Update: The last of us volunteered to come to immigration on our own. We drove there unescorted. Turns out they thought we were employees of Punspace which is untrue. We're all still here but good news so far is that they aren't targetung digital nomads

[NancyL]

In reading the full blog posting, it seems that everyone who could produce a passport with a valid visa or current visa-exempt status was left alone. And perhaps a misunderstanding that the people were working (employed by) PunSpace.

So, I wonder if it's really an exercise in harassing digital nomads, or just an opportunity to check visa status for a group of foreigners who are congregated together. I wonder what's next? Will they storm the next Expats Ladies Lunch and ask to see that we all have our passports with valid retirement visas?

I now carry my passport with me at all times. Yeah, I know it's a hassle. I put it in a plastic bag and hopefully it won't get stolen or trashed out.

Edited October 1, 2014 by NancyL

[ldnguy]

They need armed police to check passports?

[Nakajima]

if just authorities were so effective with real criminals!

[Ralf61]

As far as I understand, Immigration cares solely for entitlement of stay, but not for work/taxation staff. That's in the scope of the Labour Office/Revenue Office (and those two are well interconnected). Meaning, as far as I nderstand, working without a work permit is still illegal, and harsh punishments apply. Immigration cannot grant special labour laws to digital nomads. They simply do not care, as it's not their business...

[monty1412]

Wow Thailand's finest on the case, great job guys, let me write the headline for you, We couldn't solve the Kao Tao Murders but we did get a few faring who were tapping away at some computers in Chiang Mai,,,,, dignity of the police force upheld

[pinkpanther99]

The problem here is that there isn't really a visa class for 'digital nomads' or whatever it is you want to call them.

As far as immigration is concerned, these people are just the same as Burmese labourers, Russian tour guides or non degree holder English teachers working without a work permit.

Also, going to 'work' in a co-working space is asking for trouble as none of these foreigners will have work permits or Non-B's because they aren't working for a Thai organisation. If you were 'working' under the radar, so to speak, why make yourself a target by going to such a venue?

Look on Twitter and you'll find loads of these self proclaimed digital nomads and online entruprenurs talking openly about 'working' in Thailand. Then in the next post they're complaining about having to renew their ED-Visa!! It's stupid, all Immigration would have to do is check Twitter and they could easily identify many of these people working illegally.

What Thailand needs to do is update its visa laws and welcome digital nomads - but don't hold your breath that will ever happen!

Edited October 1, 2014 by pinkpanther99

[DiamondKing]

These are all people that the only thing they do here is SPEND MONEY they have nothing to do with working in Thailand or taking away from any Thai person so the only thig they do is add to the economy of Thailand by spending their money here.

I dont think this is a crackdown on online workers I think it is a misunderstanding that they thought they were all employed by Punspace. however if they did say that Digital Nomads cannot work it makes no difference to these people because what they do they can do anywhere and will most likely move onto a place that welcomes them and that gives them a SENSIBLE option to get legal instead of a work permit that required a company funded by 2 Million baht plus having toemply 4 thais before a work permit is qualified for a foreigner.

Its actually good this happened because now we will see clearly what the stance is and so far looks like there is not an issue with Digital Nomads working online.but we will see as they are all released.

[catweazle]

I have almost given up to comment on these kind of posts - by now it is obvious that Thailand is addicted to self destruction.

Thai mafia rapist killers go free and a foreigner who sold his 2nd hand guitar back home through ebay using free WiFi at a cafe in Thailand is named a digital nomad, put in the slammer, sentenced and deported...

Thailand - hub of balanced priorities...

Edited October 1, 2014 by catweazle

[uptheos]

They need armed police to check passports?

Absolutely, you don't know what kind of desperate reaction might occur in a raid

[iancnx]

I think this is mis-interpreted. More likely as one poster said above it may have been an opportunity to do a routine visa check for overstayers as opposed to WP issues. Or I wonder if Pun Space has a business competitor who just wanted to cause a little mischief?

[CMHomeboy78]

In reading the full blog posting, it seems that everyone who could produce a passport with a valid visa or current visa-exempt status was left alone. And perhaps a misunderstanding that the people were working (employed by) PunSpace.

So, I wonder if it's really an exercise in harassing digital nomads, or just an opportunity to check visa status for a group of foreigners who are congregated together. I wonder what's next? Will they storm the next Expats Ladies Lunch and ask to see that we all have our passports with valid retirement visas?

I now carry my passport with me at all times. Yeah, I know it's a hassle. I put it in a plastic bag and hopefully it won't get stolen or trashed out.

This is the latest incident in the long running controversy regarding the question: do foreigners have to carry their passports with them at all times?

It would be nice to know whether or not a law exists that says so.

[max72]

These are all people that the only thing they do here is SPEND MONEY they have nothing to do with working in Thailand or taking away from any Thai person so the only thig they do is add to the economy of Thailand by spending their money here.

I dont think this is a crackdown on online workers I think it is a misunderstanding that they thought they were all employed by Punspace. however if they did say that Digital Nomads cannot work it makes no difference to these people because what they do they can do anywhere and will most likely move onto a place that welcomes them and that gives them a SENSIBLE option to get legal instead of a work permit that required a company funded by 2 Million baht plus having toemply 4 thais before a work permit is qualified for a foreigner.

Its actually good this happened because now we will see clearly what the stance is and so far looks like there is not an issue with Digital Nomads working online.but we will see as they are all released.

They don t want foreigners to spend money in Thailand. They hate us to death . That's why the tourists who used to spend 4-5 winter months in Thailand and spend dozens of thousands of euros are threated like animals and told they should go away, because they don't want tourists to spend more than 30 days and never come back.

This doesn't surprise me, since even every Thai politician (just two indeed) who did something for the people has been removed.

The elite wants Thailand to always be one of the poorest, saddest and most miserable countries in the planet. They hate people providing any benefit to ordinary people.

[rwdrwdrwd]

As far as I understand, Immigration cares solely for entitlement of stay, but not for work/taxation staff. That's in the scope of the Labour Office/Revenue Office (and those two are well interconnected). Meaning, as far as I nderstand, working without a work permit is still illegal, and harsh punishments apply. Immigration cannot grant special labour laws to digital nomads. They simply do not care, as it's not their business...

By the nature of a Tourist Visa, one is not allowed to 'work' it states so on the application. Point being they definitely DO care, the crux here is whether or not working remotely for a foreign organisation and being paid outside of Thailand constitues 'working in Thailand' from the perspective of Immigration.

[Docno]

They need armed police to check passports?

You expect them to leave their sidearms back at the office? What happens if some sort of emergency call comes in while they are dealing with this situation? Or maybe you'd prefer the sidearm to be left unattended in a car? Cops carry guns. It's part of the job. Its no big deal.

[Docno]

I'm just curious... where do so-called digital nomads pay taxes? In the clients' country, their home country, or their server's country?

[rwdrwdrwd]

If the income is earned from the earners home country, likely to be taxable in the home country despite non-residence

If the earner is resident in Thailand (>183 days) - taxable in Thailand if remitted to Thailand in that tax year subject to tax treaties with other claimants

It can be tax free though with some setups, though they are rare:

- Living in a country that taxes on a remittance basis
- Country of citizenship does not tax foreign income for non-resident citizens
- Income sourced from a third country and invoiced from the individual rather than a company

- Banking in a fourth country that levies no tax on a non-citizen and non-resident foreign income

With this set up, so long as the money can be held in the bank until it does not qualify under the remittance rules for the country of residence (in the case of Thailand, remitted to Thailand in the same year it is earned), is tax free.

EG:

Citizenship - British - only taxes British income of British non-residents
Residence - Thailand - taxes income remitted to Thailand only if remitted in the year it is earned

Source of Income - Ireland - only concerned with Corp and Income tax for Irish entities

Banking - Hong Kong - no taxes on non-resident/non citizen foreign income

Even easier if one moves around often enough to avoid any residency rule - definition of the term 'tax nomad'.

Edited October 1, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[hml367]

This is the latest incident in the long running controversy regarding the question: do foreigners have to carry their passports with them at all times?

It would be nice to know whether or not a law exists that says so.

There is no controversy. The regulation exists.

It just isn't enforced often. But if you come to the attention of the authorities for any reason, you must be able to produce it on demand.

Where is this regulation?

[masuk]

Another pathetic and pointless immigration raid.

The police were armed, in case any of the computer mice were loaded.

[hobz]

I'm just curious... where do so-called digital nomads pay taxes? In the clients' country, their home country, or their server's country?

Depends on where they have their company.. Most would have to start the company in their home country and pay the taxes there.. Anything else would be illegal in most cases (paying no tax at all . or having an "offshore company"). In some cases I guess an offshore company would be legal.. And then tax would be paid in that country.

[saanya]

If there was a mistake made by immigration, in this or similar situations, in thinking some of the foreigners were acting as employees, it's often because a neighbor called it in and exaggerated the situation, or customers were seen within the staff work area too much.

We've seen a few small time raids in the last 10 years, and each and every time it was always a jealous (and usually racist) local who called it in. We had to tell customers and prospective foreign staff alike, -stay out from the staff work areas, we had to clearly separate the customer space from staff work area.

One raid in particular a long-time customer of ours learned the hard way. Sitting at staff table (which faces the customers) next to the fax machine & phone, working on paperwork, he was in exactly the wrong place at the wrong time. With an officer who was bent on making a bust, they locked the guy up, and once he got out he said they'd given him 7 days to leave country. He had to pack his whole life up & scram. So just someone who's asked to use the phone after their cell battery's gone out, sits at wrong side of a table, that was it.

Other times they'd show up, make a bit of a ruckus, and issue 'warnings'. We'd be advised, 'we had to come, too many reports so we had to do something'. Basically a show for the neighboring Thai-only businesses.

Debate as to "digital nomads" being allowed in has led to some errant reports, incorrect information. I established a company here and obtained a work permit not to make 'local' income / money per se, but specifically because I feared being messed with by the authorities for "working" on my international projects.

Example of why? -Once we rented a new flat, and the landlady kept at me and my wife every time she stopped by, asking why I had a desk and computers in one of the rooms. None of her business at at all, suffice to say we didn't bother living there long.

It was a lot of expense and hassle to eventually start a company, but with the ability to renew my WP for 2 years at a time, and having seen umpteen rounds of meddling locals, jealous competitors, unpredictable political change, I do feel safer.

Thai authorities get a lot of support when it comes to maintaining a racist and xenophobic brand of 'law & order' upon hapless farangs.

The situation will never improve for us, of that you can be certain. Look at how your own countries view immigrants, and deal with them 'behind the scenes'.

The concept of foreigners here eventually obtaining more rights via 'national reform efforts' is simply not realistic.

This country's business and financial sectors aren't even really run by 100% ethnic Thais anymore, -think about that for a minute.

If you are living here full time, govern your "digital nomad" actions accordingly.

Either create a business and get the work permit, or keep it low profile.

Saanya

Edited October 1, 2014 by saanya

[uptheos]

This is the latest incident in the long running controversy regarding the question: do foreigners have to carry their passports with them at all times?

It would be nice to know whether or not a law exists that says so.

There is no controversy. The regulation exists.

It just isn't enforced often. But if you come to the attention of the authorities for any reason, you must be able to produce it on demand.

Please provide a link to the regulation in Thai law please (Thai language is OK)

The 'must be able to produce it on demand' is correct.

Producing it on demand could mean going to your bank box, not necessarily your back pocket.

[makescents]

Looks like the raid was blown out of proportion.

Nothing to do with Digital Nomads so feel free to carry on working.

I just wish Bangkok immigration would clarify their position...

[PattayaPhom]

''is a shared office space which according to its website is a lively co-working space which “offers peaceful and creative working environment”

Why not just where a great big sandwhich board saying '' I am working''

Not quite under the radar

[DiamondKing]

I'm just curious... where do so-called digital nomads pay taxes? In the clients' country, their home country, or their server's country?

Depends on where they have their company.. Most would have to start the company in their home country and pay the taxes there.. Anything else would be illegal in most cases (paying no tax at all . or having an "offshore company"). In some cases I guess an offshore company would be legal.. And then tax would be paid in that country.

You have no clue what you are talking about for example

you could open a company in Hong Kong and as long as you do not do business in hong Kong (ie digital nomad) then there is a ZERO tax rating for that company although you do have to do yearly books and submit them.

If you dont want any tax liability whatsover then that is an option or the Seychelles is even better since there is zero tax and you dont even have to provide yearly financials.

Any smart person that does not listen to the Masters of their country can easily find out how to Legally be a tax free entity if they work online and not a resident of any country even if you are a resident you could have your HK company pay you a salary which you would pay tax on if you really wanted to stay in a specific country.

[ldnguy]

These are all people that the only thing they do here is SPEND MONEY they have nothing to do with working in Thailand or taking away from any Thai person so the only thig they do is add to the economy of Thailand by spending their money here.

I dont think this is a crackdown on online workers I think it is a misunderstanding that they thought they were all employed by Punspace. however if they did say that Digital Nomads cannot work it makes no difference to these people because what they do they can do anywhere and will most likely move onto a place that welcomes them and that gives them a SENSIBLE option to get legal instead of a work permit that required a company funded by 2 Million baht plus having toemply 4 thais before a work permit is qualified for a foreigner.

Its actually good this happened because now we will see clearly what the stance is and so far looks like there is not an issue with Digital Nomads working online.but we will see as they are all released.

They don t want foreigners to spend money in Thailand. They hate us to death . That's why the tourists who used to spend 4-5 winter months in Thailand and spend dozens of thousands of euros are threated like animals and told they should go away, because they don't want tourists to spend more than 30 days and never come back.

This doesn't surprise me, since even every Thai politician (just two indeed) who did something for the people has been removed.

The elite wants Thailand to always be one of the poorest, saddest and most miserable countries in the planet. They hate people providing any benefit to ordinary people.

Don't be so stupid. Tourist visa are regularly issued for more than 30 days and tourists are very welcome here. It's people like you that aren't welcome.

[ldnguy]

I'm just curious... where do so-called digital nomads pay taxes? In the clients' country, their home country, or their server's country?

Depends on where they have their company.. Most would have to start the company in their home country and pay the taxes there.. Anything else would be illegal in most cases (paying no tax at all . or having an "offshore company"). In some cases I guess an offshore company would be legal.. And then tax would be paid in that country.

What a load of nonsense.

1. You don't need to set up a company. You can work as an individual, as most digital nomads do.

2. It is not illegal to get income and not pay tax anywhere. Many people do it and it's completely legal. e.g. For a UK citizen you can leave the UK and become non-resident for tax purposes, so you don't need to pay any tax on your income. Spend 4 months each in 3 different countries and you won't be liable for taxes in any of them. That is the reality. There is nothing at all illegal about it. Depends on the countries and the tax rules, but most countries won't tax you if you're there for less than 6 months. Many won't tax you if income is derived from outside the country.