Australian PM orders parliamentary burka ban rethink

[samran]

Mary Mackillop, Australian canonized nun, only some of face showing

Google her name, get 8 images with face uncovered. Click "more images" and get literally hundreds, not one with face covered.

People are calling any head covering a burqa. Most aren't, only the burqa has a full face covering with the wire mesh covering the eyes.

While catholic nuns covered up, it was never to this extent.

For me, I'd like the whole question outsourced to professional security rather than pollies. Whatever the security people say is appropriate, then that should what be done.

But again, this is simply more muckraking by the Cory bernadis of the world.

[samran]

Australia is strange. Muslims make up like 3% or 5% of the population. Now everything the government does requires the permission of the muslim community

Is the Prime Minister a muslim? What country in the world let's the 3% decide how the rest of the country must live? Can't they just say NO ?

This is the irony that you blokes don't get. This is a liberal government (read for you non Australians, a conservative government).

They are sticking to their ideological guns here in that they believe in minimal government and not telling how people to love their lives, including what to wear. That is the country Australia is. True conservatives should applauding the PM.

The reason why France got away with the burqa ban is well, they are socialists. Socialists tell people what to do. Maybe you are really a socialist?

And no, the PM is a catholic and a former trainee priest.

[simple1]

So Ozzy pilots will soon be bombing and killing a lot of children,even though they don't deserve it,just because Abbott said they could,you got a problem with that.

Too right. That is interfering in their god-given right to kill each other.

So its OK by you for innocent civilians (including non Muslims) being raped, tortured, enslaved and murdered in their thousands, without any intervention?

Your sarcasm meter needs recalibrating.

Sorry

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

[samran]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

Dang, missed the fun...

[giddyup]

Are muslim women who wear full face covering required to show their faces on Australian drivers licences and to passport control at airports?

[samran]

Are muslim women who wear full face covering required to show their faces on Australian drivers licences and to passport control at airports?

From what I've read this week the answer is yes, though they are processed by women.

The whole parliament debate is silly. There are existing procedures in place used at airports etc which could have been implemented at parliament. But to score political points they make an issue of it. Seems it backfired.

[ozsamurai]

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/burqa-ban-a-political-excuse-for-persecution-20141002-10p0mc.html

At least get it right when you ask for something to be banned. Has no place in Oz, but deal with it in a 'normal' fashion, not the lynch mob mentality that has been flying around lately, you only give them more power than they already have.

Oz

[samran]

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/burqa-ban-a-political-excuse-for-persecution-20141002-10p0mc.html

At least get it right when you ask for something to be banned. Has no place in Oz, but deal with it in a 'normal' fashion, not the lynch mob mentality that has been flying around lately, you only give them more power than they already have.

Oz

Lynch mobs are the best PR Isis could hope for.

[samran]

Put a big cross around your neck or female wear a singlet in any Arab country and see what happens.

It's about time West stops being " politically correct"

They made a choice to migrate to Western world , then dress and act like it's acceptable in the West.

If you want to live by your own ways, then stay in your country or move to another with the same values

100% correct however the first time a member of parliament actually says what everyone is thinking along these lines, he's out of a job. Its amazing how the backbone crumbles when the mortgage payments are at risk !

They current government believe in small government and not telling people how to live their lives. A range of front benchers have come out this week and said the same.

If you don't like that approach to governance, then vote another mob in. But I suspect you voted for this mob.

[konying]

Put a big cross around your neck or female wear a singlet in any Arab country and see what happens.

It's about time West stops being " politically correct"

They made a choice to migrate to Western world , then dress and act like it's acceptable in the West.

If you want to live by your own ways, then stay in your country or move to another with the same values

100% correct however the first time a member of parliament actually says what everyone is thinking along these lines, he's out of a job. Its amazing how the backbone crumbles when the mortgage payments are at risk !

They current government believe in small government and not telling people how to live their lives. A range of front benchers have come out this week and said the same.

If you don't like that approach to governance, then vote another mob in. But I suspect you voted for this mob.

I did not vote at all and I i had to I would not vote for either sides as both lately are led by morons

[wwest5829]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

As a student of history, I would be very interested in seeing a photo of these full face coverings of Nuns in Australia as I have no recollection of ever having seen them in my study. Mind, not questioning, just wanting to learn. Can you post at least one photo of this?

How come students are so dumb nowadays, surely they learn how to use Google. Or are they are so lazy they can't get of their arse. God help us all.

Such an astute observation Franko666, you seem to attribute everything posted on the Internet as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. At 67 years of age and a retired professor of history, I still count myself as a student of history. For some of those still keeping an inquiring mind, some deeper research is called for rather than a good deal which is posted on the Internet.

[Ulysses G.]

For some of those still keeping an inquiring mind, some deeper research is called for rather than a good deal which is posted on the Internet.

That is for sure. There is LOTS of fake history on the Internet and too many people think that it is factual.

[IAMSOBAD]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

As a student of history, I would be very interested in seeing a photo of these full face coverings of Nuns in Australia as I have no recollection of ever having seen them in my study. Mind, not questioning, just wanting to learn. Can you post at least one photo of this?

How many of those nuns did suicide bombings?

[wwest5829]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

As a student of history, I would be very interested in seeing a photo of these full face coverings of Nuns in Australia as I have no recollection of ever having seen them in my study. Mind, not questioning, just wanting to learn. Can you post at least one photo of this?

How many of those nuns did suicide bombings?

Sorry, I am just focusing on the dress issue at present.

[ozsamurai]

Now this is just getting stupid...

Oz

[opalred]

how many members of govt would like to hide under a burka at times here and oz

[samran]

Now this is just getting stupid...

Oz

My daughter went to a state school in Melbourne and one of her class mates had been yanked by her parents from the Muslim school because of their perception of it being a bit too bolchie on things like this.

We were quite close with a parish priest of our church who oversaw one of a more liberal catholic schools up the road, who was pretty down on another catholic school (to which we almost sent our kids) cause the priest there was down on parents who didn't send their kids to church on Sunday.

I guess I'm down on all types of extremes. I'm guessing between the fair work act and the racial discrimination act there is a solution to this.

[Credo]

Comparing Catholic nuns to Muslim women who wear head gear is not really a good comparison. Nuns are a group of Catholics who have joined an order. It is a very conscious decision and the dress is determined by their order. They are not general members of society.

[opalred]

as a past muslim i do belive the womens rights movements should do more to help there fellow women in slavery

[arjunadawn]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Catholic nuns are not trying to carve out sharia compliant states. Catholic nuns are not seeking court precedents for special rights under the law, not equal rights. Catholic preists are not motivating the lay to violence, murder, and inciting violence to enable sharia throughout nearly every country on the earth. The catholic lay are not demanding special catholic rights throughout the world, while limiting others'. In a narrow snapshot, without context, your point is understandable. People have fear because... they are waking up!

It most certainly is newsworthy.

No, only tax free status for one or the richest organisations in the world, the sanctity of the confessional from legal scrutiny and in Australia at least, seperate funding streams for catholic schools.

Add to this putting chaplains in public schools in OZ.

So what were you saying about the Catholic Church trying to be above the law?

In the US, it wasn't so long ago that conservatives were scared of a catholic president. They. Were worried that he'd be serving a foreign power (Ie the pope and the Vatican) above his own. You still see evangelicals trot this line out.

Nb, I'm catholic.

Brother (I assume), I dont argue with your observations, but they are simply unrelated to the point here. The point is actually quite narrow, asserting burkas and nuns attire are the same, therefore treating one differently constitutes.... I reject this. The motivations leading up to the questions regarding burkas are not religious, per se- they are a matter of security. Moreoever, nuns were not lay people, burka wearers are. Otherwise, I have zero use for catholicism or any religion for that matter. But there is simply no real analogy between burkas and nuns.

[Thorgal]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Catholic nuns are not trying to carve out sharia compliant states. Catholic nuns are not seeking court precedents for special rights under the law, not equal rights. Catholic preists are not motivating the lay to violence, murder, and inciting violence to enable sharia throughout nearly every country on the earth. The catholic lay are not demanding special catholic rights throughout the world, while limiting others'. In a narrow snapshot, without context, your point is understandable. People have fear because... they are waking up!

It most certainly is newsworthy.

No, only tax free status for one or the richest organisations in the world, the sanctity of the confessional from legal scrutiny and in Australia at least, seperate funding streams for catholic schools.

Add to this putting chaplains in public schools in OZ.

So what were you saying about the Catholic Church trying to be above the law?

In the US, it wasn't so long ago that conservatives were scared of a catholic president. They. Were worried that he'd be serving a foreign power (Ie the pope and the Vatican) above his own. You still see evangelicals trot this line out.

Nb, I'm catholic.

Brother (I assume), I dont argue with your observations, but they are simply unrelated to the point here. The point is actually quite narrow, asserting burkas and nuns attire are the same, therefore treating one differently constitutes.... I reject this. The motivations leading up to the questions regarding burkas are not religious, per se- they are a matter of security. Moreoever, nuns were not lay people, burka wearers are. Otherwise, I have zero use for catholicism or any religion for that matter. But there is simply no real analogy between burkas and nuns.

Tomorrow a nun will not be baned with the same clothes as a moslima.

Tomorrow a moslima will be baned with the same clothes as a nun.

[samran]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Catholic nuns are not trying to carve out sharia compliant states. Catholic nuns are not seeking court precedents for special rights under the law, not equal rights. Catholic preists are not motivating the lay to violence, murder, and inciting violence to enable sharia throughout nearly every country on the earth. The catholic lay are not demanding special catholic rights throughout the world, while limiting others'. In a narrow snapshot, without context, your point is understandable. People have fear because... they are waking up!

It most certainly is newsworthy.

No, only tax free status for one or the richest organisations in the world, the sanctity of the confessional from legal scrutiny and in Australia at least, seperate funding streams for catholic schools.

Add to this putting chaplains in public schools in OZ.

So what were you saying about the Catholic Church trying to be above the law?

In the US, it wasn't so long ago that conservatives were scared of a catholic president. They. Were worried that he'd be serving a foreign power (Ie the pope and the Vatican) above his own. You still see evangelicals trot this line out.

Nb, I'm catholic.

Brother (I assume), I dont argue with your observations, but they are simply unrelated to the point here. The point is actually quite narrow, asserting burkas and nuns attire are the same, therefore treating one differently constitutes.... I reject this. The motivations leading up to the questions regarding burkas are not religious, per se- they are a matter of security. Moreoever, nuns were not lay people, burka wearers are. Otherwise, I have zero use for catholicism or any religion for that matter. But there is simply no real analogy between burkas and nuns.

And the analogy between burkas and a security risk is silly too.

A potential terrorists isn't going to walk down the street in the west in an outfit which brings the the MOST attention. Just like the 9-11 terrorists who were clean shaven and wore nice outfits, and the London bombers who has backpacks and street wear, a potential terrorist in the west is going to be unsuspecting to everyone.

Looking like the stereotype may make work to keep you below the radar on the afghan badlands, but not when you are the only one walking into Australia's national parliament, which to the PMs own recollection, hasn't had someone in a burqa enter the place.

I dare say a terrorist is probably going to have more luck keeping under the radar by dressing as a nun to get anywhere near the PM, who is a catholic.

Edited October 4, 2014 by samran

[arjunadawn]

Tomorrow a nun will not be baned with the same clothes as a moslima.

Tomorrow a moslima will be baned with the same clothes as a nun.

Yes, this is fair. It sums up perfectly the previous poster's limited analogy to nuns versus burkas. I think the connection is a fair one to consider, but ultimately fails because the reason- the motivations- behind the urge to limit concealing clothing. The reason various countries are seeking to limit or address muslim clothing (burka oppose to ni(hi)jib is because of threat, the aura associated threat, and the supremist behaviors increasingly associated with islam- as declared by the adherents. In other words, besides the clothing itself possibly concealing a threat (as it is widely known jihadists wear burkas to evade. Indeed, while in Afghanistan even I carried a burka in the bottom of my "go to hell" bag, to evade if needed), increasingly the demand to wear burkas is arising in the social context of muslims demanding a host of other accomodations as well.

This is important. While the issue of the burka hardly seems of considerable importance, because of its visability it has become a lightening rod. Thus the burka is far less a singular issue of a religion's rights, it is a component of a religion that is increasingly limiting other's rights in many countries, while demanding special protections for their behavior. I have no problem with muslims wearing their bedsheets if they wish but they should be prohibited from driving with them on, entering public transportation, public spaces, or any other venue in which it is clearly published covering is prohibited, private or public. It is ridiculous to equate burkas with nun attire. It misses the entire underlying issue.

Lastly, nun's do not have the same attire as burkas, it is more similar to hijab/scraf. A burka is basically rolling a woman up in carpet and cutting a slit so she can see.

[arjunadawn]

And the analogy between burkas and a security risk is silly too.

A potential terrorists isn't going to walk down the street in the west in an outfit which brings the the MOST attention. Just like the 9-11 terrorists who were clean shaven and wore nice outfits, and the London bombers who has backpacks and street wear, a potential terrorist in the west is going to be unsuspecting to everyone.

Looking like the stereotype may make work to keep you below the radar on the afghan badlands, but not when you are the only one walking into Australia's national parliament, which to the PMs own recollection, hasn't had someone in a burqa enter the place.

I dare say a terrorist is probably going to have more luck keeping under the radar by dressing as a nun to get anywhere near the PM, who is a catholic.

Ok, fair enough. I think the tenative connection with security is present, you do not. I think it is vague enough that your argument could be successful. I ask then, why are countries then trying to limit the burka? After all, it is not the most egregious issue concerning muslims these days. It is true that in a number of countries the right to wear the burka is moving through court systems, so clearly the issue is being used as a wedge, whereas there wasnt any problem previously. Has society changed that much? Hardly, society has moved further to the left of late. The issue is the West's having opened its doors and ingrates seeking to subjugate the host countries to familiar practices they enjoyed in the cesspool's they fled.

The burka is a foci for a real palpable issue- muslims are culturally assualting civil society in many countries throughout the world. Ths is a practice that is laid out in intimate detail in the 3 primary sections of the Koran, moving from Tolerance, to Immigration and Defensive warfare, to Offensive warfare- (Mecca Medina Mecca). This formula was made by their prophet and more or less practiced over millenia. There are ample examples where the "locals" protested by saying (paraphrase) "We have no problems with your god, we just want you to stop insulting our gods and traditions." This vicitm narrative is being pushed in multiple countries any any charge to this absurdity is responded to by "Islamophobe." All the while various countries are losing their own rights to practice their various traditions, the cultural mores, only to appease the muslim complainers. In this context the burka finds its place in the argument for, or against.

If the burka is as far as western governments are going to go, the war being waged upon the west is already lost.

[simple1]

And the analogy between burkas and a security risk is silly too.

A potential terrorists isn't going to walk down the street in the west in an outfit which brings the the MOST attention. Just like the 9-11 terrorists who were clean shaven and wore nice outfits, and the London bombers who has backpacks and street wear, a potential terrorist in the west is going to be unsuspecting to everyone.

Looking like the stereotype may make work to keep you below the radar on the afghan badlands, but not when you are the only one walking into Australia's national parliament, which to the PMs own recollection, hasn't had someone in a burqa enter the place.

I dare say a terrorist is probably going to have more luck keeping under the radar by dressing as a nun to get anywhere near the PM, who is a catholic.

Ok, fair enough. I think the tenative connection with security is present, you do not. I think it is vague enough that your argument could be successful. I ask then, why are countries then trying to limit the burka? After all, it is not the most egregious issue concerning muslims these days. It is true that in a number of countries the right to wear the burka is moving through court systems, so clearly the issue is being used as a wedge, whereas there wasnt any problem previously. Has society changed that much? Hardly, society has moved further to the left of late. The issue is the West's having opened its doors and ingrates seeking to subjugate the host countries to familiar practices they enjoyed in the cesspool's they fled.

The burka is a foci for a real palpable issue- muslims are culturally assualting civil society in many countries throughout the world. Ths is a practice that is laid out in intimate detail in the 3 primary sections of the Koran, moving from Tolerance, to Immigration and Defensive warfare, to Offensive warfare- (Mecca Medina Mecca). This formula was made by their prophet and more or less practiced over millenia. There are ample examples where the "locals" protested by saying (paraphrase) "We have no problems with your god, we just want you to stop insulting our gods and traditions." This vicitm narrative is being pushed in multiple countries any any charge to this absurdity is responded to by "Islamophobe." All the while various countries are losing their own rights to practice their various traditions, the cultural mores, only to appease the muslim complainers. In this context the burka finds its place in the argument for, or against.

If the burka is as far as western governments are going to go, the war being waged upon the west is already lost.

"All the while various countries are losing their own rights to practice their various traditions, the cultural mores, only to appease the Muslim complainers".

After navigating past the claims that are reiterated ad nauseam by hate sites, one normally finds that these claims are false.

Unsure of your definition of the 'left', what I will say the rise of the far right in Western countries is the greater threat. Those that in effect post support for far right ideology in combatting Islamic extremism are very naive, far right political ideology has a proven record of cannibalising and destroying Western democratic institutions.

[hard124get]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

As a student of history, I would be very interested in seeing a photo of these full face coverings of Nuns in Australia as I have no recollection of ever having seen them in my study. Mind, not questioning, just wanting to learn. Can you post at least one photo of this?

"Before the Vatican II Council the trademark of Catholic nuns used to be their habit, consisting of flowing robes and veils that covered the entire body, leaving only the face and hands visible.

But the design of the habits of the many orders of nuns has varied over the ages. During various times in history it has been practices among some orders to have their nuns to also veil their faces. Today this tradition is very uncommon and only a few orders mandates this practice.

Most of the times the nuns used veils similar to the burqa used by some Muslim women." https://www.flickr.com/photos/23168191@N00/sets/72157601647382234/

Thank you for replying. I visited the Flickr website with the photos. I do see that some denominations used a full covering. Apologize for being limited by my cultural experience, although I was around from before Vatican II. As I said, I have not been familiar with the Nun's Habit. In part due to this, I cannot agree with, " most of the time nuns used veils similar to the burqa...". I'll keep looking but thus far I am getting the impression that this was an exception in some denominations rather than used widely in Christianity. I deal with this as an academic exercise not arguing religious beliefs.

Yes, wearing of full face veils was an exception in Catholicism, as it is in Islam.

[hard124get]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

As a student of history, I would be very interested in seeing a photo of these full face coverings of Nuns in Australia as I have no recollection of ever having seen them in my study. Mind, not questioning, just wanting to learn. Can you post at least one photo of this?

How many of those nuns did suicide bombings?

How many Australian burqua wearing women have suicide bombed?

[pitrevie]

Go to a public office in Switzerland requiring services that mean an ID check be made, and refusing to remove the face mask (or whatever it's called) results in refusal. Seems like common sense to me.

I walked into a bank in Cambodia wearing my sun hat and I was told to remove it, quite right too.

[pitrevie]

How many women in Australia wear burquas ? Just another fear-mongering no-news item. Many Catholic nuns wore full face habits for years in Australia.

Firstly I'd love to see you substantiate that claim that nuns ever wore full face covering habits! Secondly, nuns are women of God. They are devout ladies who are celibate and consider themselves married to God. You cannot even compare a nun with a common and garden Muslim woman with 10 kids and and an abusive husband. The deal with banning the burqa is a security issue. Burqas have no connection at all with Islam; There is nothing in the Koran or Haddith that suggests a woman must have her face covered, the face covering was originally for protection against sand storms, now it's an excuse for Muslim men to subordinate their women and start rows like this.

In Bangladesh the largest state-run hospital has banned staff from wearing full-face burqas after an increase in thefts of mobile phones and wallets from wards.