Alan Henning 'killed by Islamic State'

[Ulysses G.]

Maybe you better look up the meaning of "Strawman" before suggesting that other people are "ignorant". No one is saying that all Muslims are jihadists, besides you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

As I have said many times, your arguments are largely dishonest spin - see Strawman example above - and you frequently make excuses and justifications for radical Islam while trying to disguise it. I have pointed out plenty of examples. THAT is why I attack your deceptive posts.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

This is a continuous problem, sometimes difficult to navigate.

As a liberal westerner of course I want to have an open mind and tolerance about different cultures.

But when those different cultures are so incredibly intolerant, the feeling of tolerance for the intolerant is a tough balancing dance.

You have to draw the line somewhere.

Of course it's not only Muslim countries and cultures that suffer from extremes of intolerance. (See Russia.)

[JockPieandBeans]

<snip>

Unfortunately, if the British authorities allow such demonstrations against British Troops, then groups such as EDL will spring up.

I cannot speak for the group you mention; but many people in such anti war demonstrations were not Muslim at all, let alone radical Islamists.

These people made it clear it was government policy they were against; not the troops themselves.

One of the rights we have in a free society is the right to demonstrate and to protest; a right which also applies to those with whom we disagree.

You seem, from what you say, to want some form of restriction to the rights and freedoms enjoyed in the UK so that only those with whom you agree can demonstrate, protest or express their views in other ways; I don't.

But maybe I have misunderstood your view; if so perhaps you can clarify it.

This does not mean I believe that anyone can say anything anywhere; of course I don't. Demonstrations etc. do need to remain within the law; i.e. be non violent, not incite people to violence or hate etc.

Unfortunately, demonstrations by radical Islamists, the EDL and others do not always stay within the law. Sometimes this is because the organisers had no intention of so doing, often it is because of infiltration by outsiders whose sole purpose is to cause trouble.

This has been the case for many years; three examples from recent history which had nothing to do with Islamists nor the EDL; Grosvenor Square, Orgreave, the poll tax riots.

They were Muslims. I can post a 100 videos of the demonstrations aimed at troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention Wootton Bassett.

An anti war demonstration is a totally different kettle of fish.

The placards that were being carried never mentioned Government Policy. They did however, contain the phrases " Butchers of Basra " " Burn in Hell " and a whole load of other niceties. So I do not think that Government Policy entered their heads.

You are mistaken. You do not have the right to demonstrate in the UK. You have a right to lodge a future demonstration to the police. Including all the particulars, numbers and route to be used. The Police have the final say as to whether you are allowed to procede with the demonstration. Every participant in a demonstration that does not go through the proper channels are breaking the law.

I dont know how you could have misunderstood me. It is very simple. Any demonstration that creates FEAR, has RACIST undertones, or could cause VIOLENCE should not be allowed to happen. If they go ahead, without the authority of the Police. It should be immediately smashed and all participants carted off to the nearest police guest house.

But we do not do that in the UK, because its just not British. You reap what you sow.

Perhaps you would like to comment on this.

Has Boris lost his marbles or does he speak the truth ?

Quote

The security services are monitoring “thousands” of terrorist suspects in London, Boris Johnson has disclosed, suggesting the threat from Islamist extremists may be far greater than has previously been admitted.

http://www.telegraph...is-Johnson.html

Anyone who knows anything about terrorism will tell you that for every suspect that has been identified, there are at least 2 that have not been identified. That equates to a large amount of " suspected terrorists " cutting about London.

[boomerangutang]

....many links and quotes provided by myself and other posters showing that the vast majority of Muslims are not jihadists, do not support jihadism and actually roundly condemn it?

If they condemn it, they're not very effective in their condemnation. Take for example: all the tens of thousands of boys who grow up to become jihadists, ....what sort of family scene do they have? What sort of influence at home? My guess, is they're filled to the brim with hatred for everyone who has a different belief system, even as slightly as the difference between Shi'ite and Sunni. Also, while growing up, what sort of other influences do they have, with and without the Q'ran and its boosters?

Over the past 40 years, I've shacked up with several divorced women, several of whom had up to 4 children each. In a sense, I've been a step-dad to 20 kids at various stages in their lives. At no time did I influence those kids to hate (or desire the death of) others who think differently. My influence was inclusiveness and appreciation for the different ways people manifest in the world. If those 20 kids had been brought up in a Muslim home, it's likely they would have been indoctrinated to believe that all heretics/apostates/non deists must die. The kids I influenced have gone on to places like universities, medical careers, social workers (not unlike Mr. Henning).

If moderate Muslims really do condemn (your word) jihadists, then the moderates aren't effective in trying to snip it in the bud. Moderates may talk the talk, but they're not doing anything tangible to shut down the radical who shouts 'Allah Akbar' before cutting off another journalists' head.

[arjunadawn]

Yet again, my points about hatred and ignorance are proven for me.

Thank you.

If this is a reference to the immediate proceeding post, mine, then this is curious, and revealing. ........

Your post appeared to be an obvious attempt to justify the hate and prejudice directed toward all Muslims by certain members here.

If it wasn't; what point were you trying to make?

I rarely fail at something I attempt, especially when writing something devoid of motive or gain- I do not hate, nor do I lack the ability to express myself clearly. The underlying issues for which this terrible Alan saga unfolds does so against a backdrop whose meaning, if overlooked, speaks a dreadful future. Islam is jihad (in the varying context that both the spiritualists and material muslims apply it). Islam is jihad. Jihad is the house of war, dar al harb, until Islam is achieved- Submission- dar al salam- the house of peace. (note: Other religious traditions also have mandates for jihad, such as Christian Ephesian armour of god, or the various Buddhist iconography of the spirit warrior, Indian, etc. No other religion, however, has provisions for the cult-like duty to employ jihad against fellow man).

If one thinks these points are abstract, too deep, etc., just declare, "I prefer the warm familiar ignorance of not knowing. I prefer to declare this threat what I prefer it to be, a manageable aberration to an otherwise equal and familiar ideology." I observed this state first in my own mother when I sadly if not poetically realized she is very comfortable in the area of her knowledge where she can always see where the known ends, and the unknown begins; she then retreats intellectually or emotionally to the familiar convictions she has, irrespective of facts. So, I state this point with a degree of familiarity and sadness. Most don't realize they do it.

When you declare my post looks like hate, it reflects on you, I regret. I could take the punch because I don't care, but your peers on TV are aware I do not hate, even those who despise my posts because... I do not. Thus your response, knee jerk but intuitive for you, reconfirms your familiar worldview that when someone expands it to the unfamiliar, pejoratives safely ensconce you once more in your own limited views, the exposure to facts thwarted.

When in discussion with those who agree with me or not we all arrive at a similar "stipulation;" jihadis do not represent all islam. The problem is, though, with even modest numbers we are talking about many hundreds of millions. Moreover, it is not even the sheer numbers, it is that these "activist" jihadis are wielding or approaching significant tools or war and terror. Irrespective of the useless trivia that jihad does not reflect all, all jihadis derive their sustenance from the same sources, these sources call for war against... everyone else, and these jihadis are making significant tactical and strategic progress every day. Isn't it possible that neither one of us hate? Isn't it possible we look at the same issue from different points of view and that in the blending of our viewpoints a solution might be found? Good luck to you 7by7. Your a smart guy but hope you will allow facts... just the facts and not the scorn... enter into your thoughtstream more easily.

Edited October 11, 2014 by arjunadawn

[JockPieandBeans]

7x7

Just to show you that not all are believers in what they read in what you would judge to be mainstream media.

Here is a video that is worth a watch.

[jacky54]

Yet again, my points about hatred and ignorance are proven for me.

Thank you.

FYI; the only people who think Alan Henning's murder, and those of the other victims, have any legitimacy are the murderers themselves.

These murders have been roundly condemned by Muslim leaders, imams etc. worldwide.

Still obsessed with your hate fantasy I see as well as trying to distance the killings from Islam itself when it is the one and only cause. Makes no difference how many Muslims condemn the killings, many also do not and it is true that the killers are merely following out the commands of Allah, and even using the methods of death as laid out for all to see in the Koran. When Muslims start to condemn the Koran and the doings of the prophet then they might be starting to wake up.

[jacky54]

7x7

Just to show you that not all are believers in what they read in what you would judge to be mainstream media.

Here is a video that is worth a watch.

That's telling 'em girl, they hate it when a woman runs rings around their superstitious hate creed. If there was a Nobel prize for speaking the truth this woman should have won it. Don't think you would see this sort of thing on AJ today. They had a film last week on the persecution of Christians in China, they would never do one about the same in Saudi or other Muslim countries.

[7by7]

I see that, as usual, questions put to the hate mates go unanswered, points raised are ignored or dismissed as spin or lies and instead they just regurgitate their same, tired old mantra that Islam is evil therefore all Muslims are evil (paraphrasing, UlyssesG).

Even those not in the hate club, who I hoped would be prepared to enter into a proper debate, seem to be falling into that habit.

Until the unlikely event that one of them actually has something new to say, there is little point in contributing to this any further.

Call this as a cop out if you wish; but I have better things to do with my life and the time I spend here.

I will close with this from ordinary British Muslims

Edited October 11, 2014 by 7by7

[H1w4yR1da]

I cannot speak for the group you mention; but many people in such anti war demonstrations were not Muslim at all, let alone radical Islamists.

We're not talking about an anti-war demo but the disgraceful muslim demos at Wooten Basset screaming obscenities and insults at British soldiers returning from duty in Afghanistan, you &lt;deleted&gt; apologist.

[JockPieandBeans]

I see that, as usual, questions put to the hate mates go unanswered, points raised are ignored or dismissed as spin or lies and instead they just regurgitate their same, tired old mantra that Islam is evil therefore all Muslims are evil (paraphrasing, UlyssesG).

Even those not in the hate club, who I hoped would be prepared to enter into a proper debate, seem to be falling into that habit.

Until the unlikely event that one of them actually has something new to say, there is little point in contributing to this any further.

Call this as a cop out if you wish; but I have better things to do with my life and the time I spend here.

I will close with this from ordinary British Muslims

Oh dear, what an own goal. I asked you a direct question twice on Boris and you refrained from answering.

So let me put this to you 7x7 ( just so there is no misunderstanding ) fire any question you like to me, and I will give you a direct answer. You may not like my answer, but you will get an answer.

Proper debate is a 2 way street, something that you appear not to have grasped. And something that the Muslim majority in the UK have failed to grasp.

I am still waiting on your answer, when I asked you to provide evidence of your claim that you live in an area that is densely populated by Muslims.

It seems pretty clear to me, that when anyone puts across a reasonable, sound argument, you totally ignore it.

Hardly the basis for reasonable debate,

If you are incapable of seeing the problems that the figment of someones imagination is creating. There really is no hope for you.

[JockPieandBeans]

I cannot speak for the group you mention; but many people in such anti war demonstrations were not Muslim at all, let alone radical Islamists.

We're not talking about an anti-war demo but the disgraceful muslim demos at Wooten Basset screaming obscenities and insults at British soldiers returning from duty in Afghanistan, you <deleted> apologist.

RIP brothers. Enjoy heaven, you have done your time in hell.

[jacky54]

I see that, as usual, questions put to the hate mates go unanswered,

You really expect people to answer your questions when you insult them by calling them haters, unbelievable. Choudray may not represent all Muslims, unfortunately the Koran and Mohamed do, that's the real problem, not loud mouths.

Edited October 11, 2014 by jacky54

[boomerangutang]

Yet again, my points about hatred and ignorance are proven for me. Thank you.

FYI; the only people who think Alan Henning's murder, and those of the other victims, have any legitimacy are the murderers themselves. These murders have been roundly condemned by Muslim leaders, imams etc. worldwide.

Still obsessed with your hate fantasy I see as well as trying to distance the killings from Islam itself when it is the one and only cause. Makes no difference how many Muslims condemn the killings, many also do not and it is true that the killers are merely following out the commands of Allah, and even using the methods of death as laid out for all to see in the Koran. When Muslims start to condemn the Koran and the doings of the prophet then they might be starting to wake up.

Imagine if the jihadist hot-heads were confronted by a group of moderate Muslims, let's say in a neutral courtyard, no one had any weapons:

The scene would quickly devolve in to shouting matches, maybe scuffles, with both sides yelling at each other. They would be trying to out-shout each other with quotes from their holy book. However, there's one thing that non-Muslims would do (if confronting jihadists) which Muslim moderates would not do: Non-Muslims would arrest the jihadists and put them up on trial for crimes. That's the big difference between Non-Muslims and Muslim moderates. One group would actively pursue the murderers and convict and punish them. The other group would just throw their arms in the air, walk away in frustration, and say something like, "Ah those hot-heads, they misinterpret the Holy Q'ran. What are we going to do with them?"

[boomerangutang]

Here's an example of what can happen when Muslim extremists confront moderate Muslims:

True story: In Saudi Arabia, a girls school caught on fire. Firemen rushed to the scene. When they tried to break down the locked rear door (Muslim men often lock females up) where the screaming was, radical Muslim men quickly showed up and refused to allow the firemen to do their jobs. Reason: Radicals didn't want the firemen (who were men, after all) to get too physically close to the girls. It mattered less, to the radicals, that the girls were screaming and dying a few feet away. Result: later when they broke the door open, a heap of little girls were there, all dead.

Addendum: The moderate Muslim firefighters didn't have the courage or determination to counter the radicals. That's the sort of thing I think about when Muslim apologists say things like, "There are many moderate Muslims who condemn Muslim radicals." I think: maybe moderates condemn it in their thoughts and conversations, BUT WHAT ARE THEY TANGIBLY DOING TO SHUT DOWN THE HARM PERPETRATED BY RADICALS?!?

[chuckd]

...and I can assure you, after a more than 30 year period living and working with them, there are very few of them trying to chop down those fire doors.

[7by7]

OK, one last time for his benefit:

Oh dear, what an own goal. I asked you a direct question twice on Boris and you refrained from answering.

How is saying that no one denies there is a problem refraining from answering those questions?

What did you want me to say?

It seems that like the hate mates, you have chosen to ignore all the many parts of my posts where I condemn extremism and jihadism and terrorism.

I am still waiting on your answer, when I asked you to provide evidence of your claim that you live in an area that is densely populated by Muslims.

So you think I am lying when I say that? Well, it's not the first time I've been called a liar (or worse, see above) in this or similar topics by those who have no real argument against points I have raised.

What evidence would satisfy you?

Why challenge me on this, yet accept comments about Muslim areas in the UK from people living 6000 miles away?

It seems pretty clear to me, that when anyone puts across a reasonable, sound argument, you totally ignore it.

Hardly the basis for reasonable debate,

It is not I who ignores reasonable, sound arguments; it is not I who is incapable of debate. I have tried to engage in it many times, only to be met by comments such as those following my last post; including your

If you are incapable of seeing the problems that the figment of someones imagination is creating. There really is no hope for you.

Have you not read any of my posts, are you ignoring most of what I have said or are you simply incapable of understanding it?

[jacky54]

It seems that like the hate mates, you have chosen to ignore all the many parts of my posts where I condemn extremism and jihadism and terrorism.

True you have condemned such acts but it's also true you continually try to deflect the blame from Islam and then pretend others are blaming all Muslims for Jihad which is not the case. When it's pointed out to you that the cause of Islamic terror is guess what- ISLAM you insult posters by calling them haters, another lie. Will you now condemn the Koran and the Prophet which is the cause of so called extremism and Jihad? come on you are half way there already. I expect you will continue to condemn the terror but ignore it's cause.

Edited October 12, 2014 by jacky54

[Thorgal]

Yet again, my points about hatred and ignorance are proven for me.

Thank you.

If this is a reference to the immediate proceeding post, mine, then this is curious, and revealing. ........

Your post appeared to be an obvious attempt to justify the hate and prejudice directed toward all Muslims by certain members here.

If it wasn't; what point were you trying to make?

I rarely fail at something I attempt, especially when writing something devoid of motive or gain- I do not hate, nor do I lack the ability to express myself clearly. The underlying issues for which this terrible Alan saga unfolds does so against a backdrop whose meaning, if overlooked, speaks a dreadful future. Islam is jihad (in the varying context that both the spiritualists and material muslims apply it). Islam is jihad. Jihad is the house of war, dar al harb, until Islam is achieved- Submission- dar al salam- the house of peace. (note: Other religious traditions also have mandates for jihad, such as Christian Ephesian armour of god, or the various Buddhist iconography of the spirit warrior, Indian, etc. No other religion, however, has provisions for the cult-like duty to employ jihad against fellow man).

If one thinks these points are abstract, too deep, etc., just declare, "I prefer the warm familiar ignorance of not knowing. I prefer to declare this threat what I prefer it to be, a manageable aberration to an otherwise equal and familiar ideology." I observed this state first in my own mother when I sadly if not poetically realized she is very comfortable in the area of her knowledge where she can always see where the known ends, and the unknown begins; she then retreats intellectually or emotionally to the familiar convictions she has, irrespective of facts. So, I state this point with a degree of familiarity and sadness. Most don't realize they do it.

When you declare my post looks like hate, it reflects on you, I regret. I could take the punch because I don't care, but your peers on TV are aware I do not hate, even those who despise my posts because... I do not. Thus your response, knee jerk but intuitive for you, reconfirms your familiar worldview that when someone expands it to the unfamiliar, pejoratives safely ensconce you once more in your own limited views, the exposure to facts thwarted.

When in discussion with those who agree with me or not we all arrive at a similar "stipulation;" jihadis do not represent all islam. The problem is, though, with even modest numbers we are talking about many hundreds of millions. Moreover, it is not even the sheer numbers, it is that these "activist" jihadis are wielding or approaching significant tools or war and terror. Irrespective of the useless trivia that jihad does not reflect all, all jihadis derive their sustenance from the same sources, these sources call for war against... everyone else, and these jihadis are making significant tactical and strategic progress every day. Isn't it possible that neither one of us hate? Isn't it possible we look at the same issue from different points of view and that in the blending of our viewpoints a solution might be found? Good luck to you 7by7. Your a smart guy but hope you will allow facts... just the facts and not the scorn... enter into your thoughtstream more easily.

What is your point ?

[Thorgal]

7x7

Just to show you that not all are believers in what they read in what you would judge to be mainstream media.

Here is a video that is worth a watch.

That's telling 'em girl, they hate it when a woman runs rings around their superstitious hate creed. If there was a Nobel prize for speaking the truth this woman should have won it. Don't think you would see this sort of thing on AJ today. They had a film last week on the persecution of Christians in China, they would never do one about the same in Saudi or other Muslim countries.

MEMRI TV is a Zionist propaganda media.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute

Do you expect objectivity from this media ?

[jacky54]

It was on Al Jazeera the well known Islamic propaganda channel

[Thorgal]

It was on Al Jazeera the well known Islamic propaganda channel

Can you point out wth the killing of Alan Henning that Al Jazeera is an Islamic propaganda channel ?

http://www.aljazeera.com/category/person/alan-henning

[JockPieandBeans]

Have you not read any of my posts, are you ignoring most of what I have said or are you simply incapable of understanding it?

Sure, I have read your posts.

Do you really wish me to give credence to your posts when you try and compare Poll Tax demonstrators to Muslim demonstrators who abuse British soldiers and who abuse the return of dead Servicemen ?

Not to mention a shed load of other atrocities.

Is Boris Johnston talking out his backside when he says that 1000's of terror suspects are being monitored in London alone ?

Is the steady rise in UKIP because everyone in the UK thinks the same as you ? Or is it because they have had enough of the multiculturalism crap and want change ?

[JockPieandBeans]

It was on Al Jazeera the well known Islamic propaganda channel

Can you point out wth the killing of Alan Henning that Al Jazeera is an Islamic propaganda channel ?

http://www.aljazeera.com/category/person/alan-henning

Any chance that you, could actually quit with the BS and come out and condemn the barbaric death of this poor unfortunate man ?

[Thorgal]

It was on Al Jazeera the well known Islamic propaganda channel

Can you point out wth the killing of Alan Henning that Al Jazeera is an Islamic propaganda channel ?

http://www.aljazeera.com/category/person/alan-henning

Any chance that you, could actually quit with the BS and come out and condemn the barbaric death of this poor unfortunate man ?

No.

Can you point out that I didn't condemn the killing ?

Can you confirm that this wasn't a false flag operation ?

Edited October 12, 2014 by Thorgal

[transam]

For sure it makes me angry how folk here protect killers of innocent. It does bring a question to me that are these folk a "plant" here, or perhaps of the same mindset of folk that go and kill folk for nothing, or perhaps they are brain dead, or perhaps are dribbling on their key board to wind up those who hate the killing of folk for nothing.....Who knows..........Sad really...

[samran]

For sure it makes me angry how folk here protect killers of innocent. It does bring a question to me that are these folk a "plant" here, or perhaps of the same mindset of folk that go and kill folk for nothing, or perhaps they are brain dead, or perhaps are dribbling on their key board to wind up those who hate the killing of folk for nothing.....Who knows..........Sad really...

What were you saying about insulting people's intelligence?

[transam]

For sure it makes me angry how folk here protect killers of innocent. It does bring a question to me that are these folk a "plant" here, or perhaps of the same mindset of folk that go and kill folk for nothing, or perhaps they are brain dead, or perhaps are dribbling on their key board to wind up those who hate the killing of folk for nothing.....Who knows..........Sad really...

What were you saying about insulting people's intelligence?

Don't know, what did I say...?

AND just for you, I am going to wedding in LOS Sunday, a Muslim guy is to marry a Thai..........

We will shake hands, chat, have a beer........We will not kill anyone..........Ain't that great.....

[samran]

For sure it makes me angry how folk here protect killers of innocent. It does bring a question to me that are these folk a "plant" here, or perhaps of the same mindset of folk that go and kill folk for nothing, or perhaps they are brain dead, or perhaps are dribbling on their key board to wind up those who hate the killing of folk for nothing.....Who knows..........Sad really...

What were you saying about insulting people's intelligence?

Don't know, what did I say...?

AND just for you, I am going to wedding in LOS Sunday, a Muslim guy is to marry a Thai..........

We will shake hands, chat, have a beer........We will not kill anyone..........Ain't that great.....

Imagine if I said that on a thread like this. Would have had the usual suspects screaming like little girls that i 'must' be an apologist.

Enjoy yourself and no crackling for you this weekend, except of it is halal. 555

Edited October 13, 2014 by samran

[H1w4yR1da]

Have you not read any of my posts, are you ignoring most of what I have said or are you simply incapable of understanding it?

No, we just think your posts constantly repeat the most horrid pro-Islam spin and apologist bullcrap, labelling anyone who dares criticise Islam, as racist, prejudiced or hateful.

Eventually your cookie-cutter posts become so predictably laughable with your purile 'hate-mates' tag.

The last video you posted featured a British Muslim saying Anjem Choudury and followers were 'cut from the same cloth as the EDL'.

This kind of thing just proves our point regarding so-called 'moderate Muslims'.