Chiang Mai and the Hippie Trail

[rhodie]

What a great enjoyable read. Thanks OP. Keep the reminiscing coming.

[RottingCorpse]

What a great enjoyable read. Thanks OP. Keep the reminiscing coming.

Indeed! takes me back to the days before I had to do things like w*rk.....

A request to a mod, could you move this to 'general' or 'the pub' as I think this could be a real nostalgia trip for many of us oldies......

[Trujillo]

God help us. Another one. 'I've been here longer than you and that makes me smarter.' -- Saan

Not in every case, but generally speaking experience counts.

It's like saying that a person who has been a doctor for 2 months can operate just as well as a 10-year veteran surgeon. Maybe, but who would you rather have operating on you?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The old days, the roughing it, the original discoveries before the places were overrun or trashed, or both, are pretty much gone. And the sad truth is these places will never recover. For those of us old enough and fortunate enough to have been in places "before it was on the map" they are memories that we not only cherish, but that can never be had by those who venture forth today.

I see this sentiment a lot in discussions of this type, but also really disagree with it.

After centuries of discoveries and explorations, this era apparently ended in 1986, or rather "the-year-I-was-travelling + 5" by whoever is making the statement.

I bet even in 1979 people were going 'you should have been here 10 years ago!' and this mythical 10 year period by which we missed proper travel has nicely shifted over the years.

Even in the Hippie Trail years, or whenever you choose to end the era of 'real' travel (pre-Internet perhaps?), travellers followed the herd with uncanny precision, to the point where you would be meeting the very same people in Soi Ngam Duphli (later KSR) that you also met in Goa or Kathmandu. Perhaps the Real Travellers™of that era were just sheep too, going to the same places where there was beer, weed, pancakes and fruit lassis?

I think I can get on a bus right now and within half a day be in a place more remote than most people went to pre-Internet. And there wouldn't even be fruit lassis and pancakes for sale, and no dudes with guitars, and no vibey guesthouses or bungalows. Because it would actually be remote.

Also the word 'Recover'. Recover from what? Recover back to having crappy roads, crappy medical facilities, poverty? Perhaps a proper war would work. But other than that it's just progress, and a little technology really shouldn't stand in the way of having an enlightening travel experience, meeting new people across cultures, and having a great time in the process.

[RottingCorpse]

The old days, the roughing it, the original discoveries before the places were overrun or trashed, or both, are pretty much gone. And the sad truth is these places will never recover. For those of us old enough and fortunate enough to have been in places "before it was on the map" they are memories that we not only cherish, but that can never be had by those who venture forth today.

I see this sentiment a lot in discussions of this type, but also really disagree with it.

After centuries of discoveries and explorations, this era apparently ended in 1986, or rather "the-year-I-was-travelling + 5" by whoever is making the statement.

I bet even in 1979 people were going 'you should have been here 10 years ago!' and this mythical 10 year period by which we missed proper travel has nicely shifted over the years.

Even in the Hippie Trail years, or whenever you choose to end the era of 'real' travel (pre-Internet perhaps?), travellers followed the herd with uncanny precision, to the point where you would be meeting the very same people in Soi Ngam Duphli (later KSR) that you also met in Goa or Kathmandu. Perhaps the Real Travellers™of that era were just sheep too, going to the same places where there was beer, weed, pancakes and fruit lassis?

I think I can get on a bus right now and within half a day be in a place more remote than most people went to pre-Internet. And there wouldn't even be fruit lassis and pancakes for sale, and no dudes with guitars, and no vibey guesthouses or bungalows. Because it would actually be remote.

Also the word 'Recover'. Recover from what? Recover back to having crappy roads, crappy medical facilities, poverty? Perhaps a proper war would work. But other than that it's just progress, and a little technology really shouldn't stand in the way of having an enlightening travel experience, meeting new people across cultures, and having a great time in the process.

Blimey Winnie poos....'wrong side of the bed' this morning?

[harrry]

What a great enjoyable read. Thanks OP. Keep the reminiscing coming.

Indeed! takes me back to the days before I had to do things like w*rk.....

A request to a mod, could you move this to 'general' or 'the pub' as I think this could be a real nostalgia trip for many of us oldies......

Better in Chiang Mai as it attracts localised info as well as the general stuff.

[CMHomeboy78]

What a great enjoyable read. Thanks OP. Keep the reminiscing coming.

Indeed! takes me back to the days before I had to do things like w*rk.....

A request to a mod, could you move this to 'general' or 'the pub' as I think this could be a real nostalgia trip for many of us oldies......

Keep it in Chiang Mai please .

Chiang Mai is my hometown... I don't like bad neighbourhoods.

[Trujillo]

I am not talking about simply getting out to a place "more remote than most people went to pre-Internet." Of course that's easy. But then were would you be?

My point is that the places that have something of note worth visiting -- be it Angkor Wat, Goa or Sapa in Northern Vietnam, to name a few -- are and never will be what they were say 20 years ago. Let me emphasis this: They will NEVER be what they once were -- they will never "recover" from the onslaught of tourism.

I am not the right age to reminisce about how it was in the 70s, but I can tell you from personal experience that in 1993, Angkor was pretty much deserted and you could hire your own step-through motorbike and go anywhere you wanted, alone. In 1990 while motorcycling around India I stayed in Goa for 18 days living under an A-frame thatched hut outside a beach restaurant named Argentina for 50 US cents a night. There wasn't really anything right on the beach for rent resembling decent bungalows at that time. The year Sapa opened fully to tourists was 1993 and I was there the month that happened.

Are you getting what I mean?

It's not that the places are gone or not worth seeing, but Angkor now is an anthill of humanity, Goa is upscale restaurants and resorts and Sapa...well, you get the picture.

My generation lived in a golden time where phones were either in your house, in an office or in a telephone booth. There was no anxiety about forgetting to bring your mobile with you. You had to get directions by human interaction -- that means either calling someone on that landline, or walking to a source of information manned (thus the term) by an actual human being.

We are already entering the realm of having a large part of the modern world (First World) not know what a Walkman was, or how a phonograph works, or what a slide rule is (we calculated how to go to the moon and back with those). Likewise, our natural and man-made heritage has become saturated with tourists and their trappings.

A final thought: My sister came from the US on a visit a few months back and I took her to see Angkor. I'd been back a few times since 1993, but this time the experience was fraught with frustration and exasperation. Huge crowds thronged every inch of nearly every site; a line was constantly in place to walk up the steep steps of Angkor Wat itself, with queue minders controlling the flow, much like a Disneyland ride. Traffic jams clogged the bottleneck into the walled area (made for the width of an elephant). Masses of ignorant Chinese yelling at each other and bullying others out of their way like a group of determined cows.

I was happy that I could finally have my sister see the magnificent ruins, and she was impressed as well, but we both felt like the atmosphere was spoiled by the inexorable machine that is modern tourism. It was more like a noisy city museum on grade school field trip day.

So yes, pay attention younger travelers. You may be impressed with what you see and the experience you have, but it will not be as good as it was before you, and it will not be the same in years to come.

The constant river of tourists cram the entry to Angkor Wat

Traffic comes to a halt at the Bayon East Gate

[cloudhopper]

It appears from this thread and personal observation that lots of old hippies have happily made this region the end of their personal trail.

You can never step in the same river twice though LOL

[northernjohn]

Mesquite, you have no idea how long I've been a member. Simply because I am now posting under other another name doesn't mean anything. Why do you assume that they need any reminder whatsoever about the here and now? Jesus.

Lighten up! Gently take that chip off your shoulder and mail it back to Portland. This is Thailand, often called the Land of Smiles! Most of us here are retired, or tourists, and are simply enjoying life.

To be honest, I took your original comment to be a tongue in cheek one. You're right of course, we shouldn't live in the past because there certainly isn't anything wrong with the right here, right now; can we seriously imagine life without the internet? Or even worse; being, as all young people always have been and always will be, foolish enough to think that we knew it all and that anyone over the age of 25 30 was a total dinosaur and couldn't possibly be interesting so therefore didn't deserve even 5 minutes of our time.

I clearly remember when 40 became the new 30 for me. Then it was 50. Now that I'm 50, I'm finally wise enough to know that there isn't any number to be the new whatever it is age.

I really enjoy engaging older people in a conversation of what things were like when they were young and knew it all. It usually cheers them up thinking about it, and I certainly like to hear the stories. We should all try to do that more often than we do, no matter how old you are, there's always somebody older, and no matter how sad or lonely you are, there's always someone sadder and lonelier than you.

It doesn't cost anything to sit down for half an hour with someone and get them chuckling whilst retelling some long forgotten story. We really ought to do it more. There really is no better sight to see than tears of laughter running down a well wrinkled face

In my experience listening to some of these memories of others has brought back long forgotten memories of my own.

Keep them coming.

[northernjohn]

The old days, the roughing it, the original discoveries before the places were overrun or trashed, or both, are pretty much gone. And the sad truth is these places will never recover. For those of us old enough and fortunate enough to have been in places "before it was on the map" they are memories that we not only cherish, but that can never be had by those who venture forth today.

I see this sentiment a lot in discussions of this type, but also really disagree with it.

After centuries of discoveries and explorations, this era apparently ended in 1986, or rather "the-year-I-was-travelling + 5" by whoever is making the statement.

I bet even in 1979 people were going 'you should have been here 10 years ago!' and this mythical 10 year period by which we missed proper travel has nicely shifted over the years.

Even in the Hippie Trail years, or whenever you choose to end the era of 'real' travel (pre-Internet perhaps?), travellers followed the herd with uncanny precision, to the point where you would be meeting the very same people in Soi Ngam Duphli (later KSR) that you also met in Goa or Kathmandu. Perhaps the Real Travellers™of that era were just sheep too, going to the same places where there was beer, weed, pancakes and fruit lassis?

I think I can get on a bus right now and within half a day be in a place more remote than most people went to pre-Internet. And there wouldn't even be fruit lassis and pancakes for sale, and no dudes with guitars, and no vibey guesthouses or bungalows. Because it would actually be remote.

Also the word 'Recover'. Recover from what? Recover back to having crappy roads, crappy medical facilities, poverty? Perhaps a proper war would work. But other than that it's just progress, and a little technology really shouldn't stand in the way of having an enlightening travel experience, meeting new people across cultures, and having a great time in the process.

Well there is a lot in what you say. But that is true for you not all. For many of us the experience

of doing some thing is what really counts. Yes it may be poor conditions and hard work at times but it is

the experience that counts. As for the hippie trail It started some time in the 60's that is when the hippie

movement started. I don't think the original hippies were the traveling type. It took several years for that

class of hippie to appear.

As you say you can with in a half day get to places with modern transportation they could never have gotten to.

But that is not the same experience as traveling by foot or over night crowded old busses or train 's.

To share unheard of experiences first hand with other travelers. Now a days all these destinations they

experienced are old hat and easily reached. There is no feel of doing some thing out of the norm to them.

Today people will travel to Pai and try to recover those feelings yet the trip is so easy to take that they have

lost it before they started out.

In ten years there will be those who do such things looking back on the trip to Pai today with

nostalgia for the good old days. The days of the hippie back packer are gone. Just as the days of the explorers

are gone. The world is an electronic tech operated world to some of us older people. Not the same as the one

we were brought up in. Even though many of us such as my self did not adventure out into it. It is still a different world.

[northernjohn]

I am not talking about simply getting out to a place "more remote than most people went to pre-Internet." Of course that's easy. But then were would you be?

My point is that the places that have something of note worth visiting -- be it Angkor Wat, Goa or Sapa in Northern Vietnam, to name a few -- are and never will be what they were say 20 years ago. Let me emphasis this: They will NEVER be what they once were -- they will never "recover" from the onslaught of tourism.

I am not the right age to reminisce about how it was in the 70s, but I can tell you from personal experience that in 1993, Angkor was pretty much deserted and you could hire your own step-through motorbike and go anywhere you wanted, alone. In 1990 while motorcycling around India I stayed in Goa for 18 days living under an A-frame thatched hut outside a beach restaurant named Argentina for 50 US cents a night. There wasn't really anything right on the beach for rent resembling decent bungalows at that time. The year Sapa opened fully to tourists was 1993 and I was there the month that happened.

Are you getting what I mean?

It's not that the places are gone or not worth seeing, but Angkor now is an anthill of humanity, Goa is upscale restaurants and resorts and Sapa...well, you get the picture.

My generation lived in a golden time where phones were either in your house, in an office or in a telephone booth. There was no anxiety about forgetting to bring your mobile with you. You had to get directions by human interaction -- that means either calling someone on that landline, or walking to a source of information manned (thus the term) by an actual human being.

We are already entering the realm of having a large part of the modern world (First World) not know what a Walkman was, or how a phonograph works, or what a slide rule is (we calculated how to go to the moon and back with those). Likewise, our natural and man-made heritage has become saturated with tourists and their trappings.

A final thought: My sister came from the US on a visit a few months back and I took her to see Angkor. I'd been back a few times since 1993, but this time the experience was fraught with frustration and exasperation. Huge crowds thronged every inch of nearly every site; a line was constantly in place to walk up the steep steps of Angkor Wat itself, with queue minders controlling the flow, much like a Disneyland ride. Traffic jams clogged the bottleneck into the walled area (made for the width of an elephant). Masses of ignorant Chinese yelling at each other and bullying others out of their way like a group of determined cows.

I was happy that I could finally have my sister see the magnificent ruins, and she was impressed as well, but we both felt like the atmosphere was spoiled by the inexorable machine that is modern tourism. It was more like a noisy city museum on grade school field trip day.

So yes, pay attention younger travelers. You may be impressed with what you see and the experience you have, but it will not be as good as it was before you, and it will not be the same in years to come.

Cambodia Angkor Wat people front 1 small.jpg

The constant river of tourists cram the entry to Angkor Wat

Cambodia Angkor Bayon East Gate traffic small.jpg

Traffic comes to a halt at the Bayon East Gate

I have been there three times in the last eight years. Never experienced any thing like those crowds.

How old are the pictures?

Edit

Of course the time of the year could make a big difference.

Edited October 8, 2014 by northernjohn

[Trujillo]

The two photos above were taken on January 17, 2014.

This photo was taken on January 21, 2004.

Both this and the later Angkor shot were taken about 15 minutes apart near 4pm (10 years apart). Notice the difference in foot traffic? So it's not about the time of year.

Imagine what the shot will look like in 2024. Perhaps entry by pre-drawn lottery?

Edited October 8, 2014 by Trujillo

[northernjohn]

The two photos above were taken on January 17, 2014.

m in front of angkor.jpg

This photo was taken on January 21, 2004.

Both this and the later Angkor shot were taken about 15 minutes apart near 4pm (10 years apart). Notice the difference in foot traffic? So it's not about the time of year.

Imagine what the shot will look like in 2024. Perhaps entry by pre-drawn lottery?

I see. It has been four years since I have been there. Eight years since my first visit.

Now that I think of it I can dimly remember the build up between my first visit and my last visit.

[Frank James]

I'll never forget the ragged inscription in smeared pencil, the words running downhill, that I saw on the wall at the communal toilet down the hall at the world renowned (in hippy lore) Hotel Gungor, Istanbul, 1977. It read: "Traveling Leads to Nothing." There were many other scribbles on the wall, but that one stood out for me. It was right at the start of our sojourn across Asia, and I had cause to remember at several points, such as...riding on a succession of ancient Tata buses, in Jammu and Kashmir, where the floor to ceiling height was less than 6' - 0", and I was 6' - 3", back then. A seat for three on one side, two on the other. The 3 side always had four or five bodies; the double became a triple. Occasionally a random stranger would grab my wrist, just to examine my nothing fancy Seiko watch, as is my arm was not part of a body. Nothing personal.

Then there was the evening on the Northern trail in Afghanistan, riding in an army truck with non-existent springs. Think of a super-size song taew. A sand storm came up, from stillness to howling chaos in just a couple of minutes All of the Afghan guys calmly unwrapped their turbans and locked arms and fingers together, making a tent over our group, all strangers to each other. They began to softly chant, something like "Allahhh---ooooh". The storm died after a half hour, as suddenly as it had arisen. the truck proceeded on across the hardpan, an ancient path which was probably there back when Alexander showed up. The men all re-wrapped their heads. Some lit cigarettes. There was no conversation.

So, back to today. You want to go to Borobadur on Java, a "World Heritage" site like Angkor, but you hear that hundreds of tourists show up there daily. Does that diminish the experience? Did you expect to be all alone there? Is it worth it? Up to you, as they say in Thailand. In America, you see so many pictures of the Grand Canyon, it's almost a cliche. You feel like you've been there already. But you haven't. Nothing prepares you for that first look out over the rim. It doesn't matter that millions have been to this spot before you, and there are hundreds milling about now. This is YOUR experience, now, TODAY. Dig it!

We live in Chiang Mai, a tourist "mecca". Everyday we see people walking around shooting pictures, looking at everything. It's fresh and new for them. I generally leave them alone, but am always pleased when someone comes up to me and asks for directions. Think of it--we are privileged to live where others save up all year to come for vacation! I hope I can steer them right, so that they go home and have great memories for their so called "golden years."

As for The Past..."The Past is a Foreign Country. They do things differently there." L.P. Hartley, The Go-Between. 1953

Or: Live in the Past, it's Cheaper! ---Anon

Just one more, I promise...Yesterday is a canceled check. Tomorrow is a promissory note. Today is Cash! ---Anon

[Konini]

A request to a mod, could you move this to 'general' or 'the pub' as I think this could be a real nostalgia trip for many of us oldies......

Keep it in Chiang Mai please .

Chiang Mai is my hometown... I don't like bad neighbourhoods.

Too right. I can just see this one being picked up and put into the newsletter and all of the horrible people who aren't the chosen ones because they don't live in Chiang Mai will jump onto the thread an ruin it.

[haybilly]

Oh Dear, now you've got me reminiscing-

excellent Topic/Thread CMHomeboy--

I, too, made the overland pilgrimage from West [uK] to East [india/Nepal] via all places in between--starting out 1974, and managing to actually arrive at the destination in '75, overland via Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan and so on.

Yes, thank you CMHomeboy-- where did the time go? Yes, I, too, remember tales of Eight Fingered Eddie and his Goan exploits.

Edited October 8, 2014 by haybilly

[Konini]

The two photos above were taken on January 17, 2014.

m in front of angkor.jpg

This photo was taken on January 21, 2004.

Both this and the later Angkor shot were taken about 15 minutes apart near 4pm (10 years apart). Notice the difference in foot traffic? So it's not about the time of year.

Imagine what the shot will look like in 2024. Perhaps entry by pre-drawn lottery?

We went there for the first time in 2003, very few people there and one of the things that amazed me most was that you could climb over all of the ruins, and we did.

We went back two and a half years ago, a friend came out from England and wanted to go at sunrise. I didn't bother getting out of bed, but Mr K told me there were a few people there, but not totally over run. Definitely no Chinese.

On Sunday I was sitting outside at the Amazon cafe at Central Festival having what was probably the worst cup of coffee I've ever had. 4 Chinese women sat on a table next to me, and their constant chatter - loud and non-stop was driving me crazy. Mr K happened to phone me, I kept saying "Shush" to them but they didn't even register that I was there. I couldn't hear a thing, but Mr K could hear them all right and was laughing at me sushing at them. It was just so loud and relentless and rude. I don't think travelling will ever be the same again now that we are competing for space with the cashed up Chinese and their constant yacking and shouting at each other.

I'm going to qualify that statement by say that it doesn't make me a racist, I'm not. It's a fact that many of us have witnessed, but it will possibly soon be like criticizing Israel or Jews in Melbourne - anti-semitic or similar is thrown at anyone who puts their head up publicly and says anything against them. That seriously was the only thing I didn't like about living in Melbourne. It wasn't so bad when we first got there, but steadily increased over the years until it's just an unspoken rule now that you don't say anything against them or you get labeled anti-semitic. Sad, but true.

[JulieM]

The Chinese have added a wonderful new element to life around the Nimmen area. Yes, they can be loud and a bit unaware of their surroundings, but they may not be frequent travelers. I like having them here and so do the shop owners.

Konini, you tried "shushing" people having a public conversation in a public space? So that you could have a private conversation on a cell phone in a public space? Shame on you.

http://www.techhive.com/article/256218/mind_your_mobile_manners_top_10_on_the_go_blunders.html

Scroll down to read about the following cell phone blunders:

o talking on a cell phone in a confined public space

o shushing person-to-person conversations while you are on the phone

Edited October 8, 2014 by JulieM

[Mapguy]

Hello! Girls! Girls! Please, no more bickering! Shall we get back to the topic?

All my best memories
Come back clearly to me
Some can even make me cry
Just like before
It's yesterday once more.....

Edited October 8, 2014 by Mapguy

[Konini]

The Chinese have added a wonderful new element to life around the Nimmen area. Yes, they can be loud and a bit unaware of their surroundings, but they may not be frequent travelers. I like having them here and so do the shop owners.

Konini, you tried "shushing" people having a public conversation in a public space? So that you could have a private conversation on a cell phone in a public space? Shame on you.

http://www.techhive.com/article/256218/mind_your_mobile_manners_top_10_on_the_go_blunders.html

Scroll down to read about the following cell phone blunders:

o talking on a cell phone in a confined public space

o shushing person-to-person conversations while you are on the phone

They were crowding me and speaking so loudly that I couldn't hear myself think. People at other tables further away were muttering, so it wasn't just me. It was rude; that kind of behaviour isn't acceptable outside China, just like their hoiking and spitting, which even the government realised was found to be disgusting by non-Chinese and they've had an active campaign on it at least since we were there in 2000.

There is absolutely no shame in my sushing them'; I'm entitled to use that public space as well as anyone else - more so in this case actually, It wasn't an open public place, it was the seating area of a cafe. I had bought a cup of coffee in order to be able to sit down at that table and have a rest and a ciggie, they didn't buy anything, just pushed their way through and dragged chairs from other tables. I don't find anything wrong in my behaviour - farangs and Thai's sitting at other tables were having a bit of a giggle at it.

And whilst I thank you for your concern, I don't need a lesson in manners; I do understand that people from other countries don't have the same standards as the British, so I take no offence at your suggestion. When on my mobile phone, which is very rare, I always speak quietly and cover my mouth and phone a habit I learned by observing a lot of Asian doing it when they are on the phone. I normally walk away from people when taking a call because it isn't polite, but in this case couldn't walk away, I had a cup of coffee on the table, a ciggie in my other hand and a lot of shopping bags, totally impractical to move away If I had, my chair would have been snatched immediately by the ever-growing group using the cafe as their meeting point. I could see the staff were frustrated, but being Thai, they obviously didn't want the confrontation.

And I don't take all of the empty seats at a coffee shop meaning paying customers were forced to sit inside. Shame on them, and perhaps shame on you for defending them, but I am assuming that you are a North American, which would explain your observations, our standards on correct behaviour in pulbic would differ greatly.

[Konini]

Hello! Girls! Girls! Please, no more bickering! Shall we get back to the topic?

All my best memories

Come back clearly to me

Some can even make me cry

Just like before

It's yesterday once more.....

Yes, you're right of course, I didn't scroll down far enough before hitting reply. I'm sure we'll get jumped on quite quickly.

Has anyone else noticed that there are many names that I don't recognise but have very high post counts, meaning they must have been here for a long time? This subject does seem to have brought a lot of lurkers out, which is a good thing.

I'm finding some of these tales of the distant past, quite possibly in a chemical (or Mother Nature's) induced haze, totally fascinating and very entertaining.

Keep them coming please.

[Dante99]

I long for the good old days on the hippie trail because one of my fond memories is about what it did not include. I can not recall bickering, complaining about buses, trains, roads, food, driving habits, local people's behavior or much of anything else. There may have been some but those folks were not on the bus long.

[CMHomeboy78]

A chronology of the guidebooks and other incidental writing about the Hippie Trail would be helpful in understanding more about this interesting subject.

The following is a summary of what I know about what has been written prior to 1975. It is far from complete, so additional information about the early years would be welcome and appreciated.

Tony Wheeler. Across Asia on the Cheap: A Complete Guide to Making the Overland Trip.

Trip made in 1972. Guide published in 1975. No comment needed. Plenty of information online.

Ed Buryn. Vagabonding in Europe and North Africa.

Several trips made in 1968-70. Guide published in 1973. To the best of my knowledge, this is the earliest comprehensive guidebook for people of his generation who wanted to travel independently. It enjoyed immediate success and had an immense impact among young people at the time. Regrettably, on reaching Eastern Turkey, Buryn didn't have the cojones to go on...he cited "omnipresent weirdnesses" and transportation difficulties. Nevertheless, his writing, especially about the good scene in Morocco is classic, and still worth reading to this day.

The 1970 edition of the Whole Earth Catalog had an article by someone I had never heard of named Sid Sussman, from London. He described in detail a motorcycle [bMW 650] trip from Istanbul to Katmandu that he had taken the previous year. He added a considerate little postscript comparing and evaluating the hotels near Durbar Square, and the various grades of hashish [legal then] available. Sussman [may he Rest in Bliss if he's not still living] proved that the trip could be done solo with your own vehicle.

Boris Lissanevich - the legendary "Boris of Katmandu" had come overland from Europe in a convoy of three Land Rovers in 1957. Before that - as far as I know - it was only attempted by organized expeditions such as the 1955 Oxford-Cambridge Overland Expedition. If they, or any other groups left accounts of their adventures, I'm unaware of them.

Perhaps other members know more.

[Trujillo]

You want to go to Borobadur on Java, a "World Heritage" site like Angkor, but you hear that hundreds of tourists show up there daily. Does that diminish the experience? Of course it would. Did you expect to be all alone there? No, of course not. Is it worth it? Probably, but it would have been better 20 years ago.

I'm not saying you shouldn't go some place famous or interesting just because now it's overrun with tourists, full of touts, crammed with souvenir shops or soured by hoards from the Middle Kingdom...

All I'm saying is that the more peaceful, natural, less harried and less trafficked time to have gone is long past. And it's not going to get better.

In the last few years, particularly with the appearance of the monied Chinese (and S. Koreans too) on the travel scene, the number of people visiting famous sites has exploded, as the previous photos of mine show. The problem is that the curve has gone from a gentle rise in numbers (for decades) to an almost exponential spurt upward -- whereby even if it flattens out, the numbers will result in continued and sustained overcrowding.

Sure, Borobadur will always be awesome in and of itself, but the atmosphere and feeling has changed. We always expect to see other travelers, but these days most of the time it's just ridiculous.

One day Chiang Mai will be as congested as Bangkok is now. Imagine the photos I posted as if they were from Wat Chedi Luang now and in 10 years. It will happen, maybe not exactly to this timeframe, but it will happen. Enjoy this golden age where you can...soon enough that too will be nothing more than "faded" digital photos and old geezers' stories.

[Frank James]

Ah, the Chinese...Say what you will about them, if they hadn't shown up this year in their numbers, the 2013 - 2014 tourist year (set to fire up again soon) in Thailand would have been an economic disaster. I live in a residence hotel, and occasionally the place fills up with groups of them. It makes the management very happy, and happier still when they get in the bus and leave. I find them rather fascinating to watch, running around in Chiang Mai.

At the much more upscale hotel where I go as a fitness member, I saw a group of Chinese men and their wives/gf's saddling up to go for a ride on five brand new large motorcycles, and one PCX 150 scooter. These had been brought over to the hotel by a rental shop. It was quite obvious that these cats didn't have much mot'rsickle experience, especially the PCX. He was wobbling around and almost dumping the bike before he got out of the driveway. His lady wanted off, but he insisted. They all took off together, as the gate guy stopped traffic for them.

The world has maybe a billion more souls living on it than back in the glorious "hippy daze." Chinese and Koreans are stepping out as the new top dogs as the West declines. What a seismic historical shift...When Tricky Dick Nixon and Dr. Henry K. Strangelove went to China in '72, everybody was wearing a little blue or green suit, packing around and quoting from the Little Red Book. Now look at 'em!

This morning on Loy Kroh I got behind a couple of young Chinese ladies, riding their rented bicycles, looking left while drifting right, yakking away, looking vaguely lost, oblivious to other traffic. Typical. I just figure we have to be patient and cut them a lot of slack until they get used to being out in the world more. I'll say this for them---they're always neat and clean. And the girls are so cute in their little hats.

[Frank James]

About coming to Chiang Mai and feeling like it was "home"...

I dropped out of the wonderful world of work in 2009, on my 64th birthday. I had been over here the summer before, visiting Bali, Malaysia, and Thailand. I took a few weeks to move out of my apartment in South Seattle, and bought an open-ended return ticket to KL, Malaysia. I had considered staying there, until I took a closer look at the cost of living, and the local power structure. Suffered a bad bout of bronchitis in Bali. As I was recovering, I remembered how much I had enjoyed Thailand, particularly Chiang Mai.

The "decision" took about five minutes. I flew up here, and when I landed at CNX, I asked the cab driver to take me to the Hotel Khumsiphaya, near the Chang Phuak Gate, a place I had read about on some guy's blog. I walked in on a muggy June night, dropped my bag at the counter, and said I wanted to rent a room for a month, sight unseen. A little old Thai lady, the matriarch of the place, standing about four foot three, walked up to me, took a good look at me and the beard I had then, and said, "You look like communist!", and then laughed. I told her no, only a Socialist. That was OK, apparently.

I lived there for a couple of years, and moved out before it was sold, gutted, and badly "remodeled." They blew the charm right out of it. The old lobby was so lovely. Somerset Maugham would have felt at ease there. Gone.

I've been back "home" a few times since then. Seattle, formerly a great town for working class families, is now a yuppie/hipster haven, unaffordable for those of modest means. Chiang Mai is truly home now. I don't have the urge to do more traveling, nor the stamina. I guess I get a vicarious thrill out of seeing all the backpackers keeping the flame alive. Bless them all in their travels.

[Konini]

The world has maybe a billion more souls living on it than back in the glorious "hippy daze." Chinese and Koreans are stepping out as the new top dogs as the West declines. What a seismic historical shift...When Tricky Dick Nixon and Dr. Henry K. Strangelove went to China in '72, everybody was wearing a little blue or green suit, packing around and quoting from the Little Red Book. Now look at 'em!

Very interesting comment here. I read a book about a year ago that was a real page-turner, absolutely fascinating; Why The West Rules - For Now by Ian Morris. The theme is how and why Europe and US 'control' the world and how it's going to change to Chinese rule. Really good read, I have an electronic copy if you (or anyone else) are interested.

Send me a PM, I think it would be easiest with your email address.

[samsara]

amazing thread. great for a mental reset.

Edited October 8, 2014 by samsara

[Johpa]

If they, or any other groups left accounts of their adventures, I'm unaware of them.

Perhaps other members know more.

You can start with Marco Polo, who was not impressed with certain groups in Southeast Asia eating raw meat (laap dip). But then there is a gap to the late 18th and into the 19th centuries when British and French expeditions covered the regions. You can find these in English, such as Frenchmen Henri Mouhot's descriptions of his travels off the grid.