UK MPs to vote on recognising Palestine as a state

[slipperx]

When a country is attacked by neighbors -- and pushes back and their land - that they claim - is taken - it is called the law of land warfare... been around for thousands of years ... Lesson to be learned -- Don't start a war with Israel - you will lose and lose what lands you hold... too bad - so sad...

But Israel has not been around for thousands of years but Palestine has.

Why can't people live in peace - we all came from the same place! Why all the fighting?

[rgs2001uk]

I am not a Jew but, if I were and, Thailand voted in Palestine's favor, Jewish investment money would cease coming to Thailand.

I feel sure the Thais are quaking in their flip flops.

[uptheos]

Palestine is in a state and always will be as long as it's ruled by Hamas killers,

[Jingthing]

I am not a Jew but, if I were and, Thailand voted in Palestine's favor, Jewish investment money would cease coming to Thailand.

Oy vey, don't be such a drama queen.

Thailand recognized Palestine in 2012, boychik. Thailand also have very good relations with Israel.

[Jingthing]

Palestine is in a state and always will be as long as it's ruled by Hamas killers,

Yep, Hamas and ISIS, same same but same same.

[Bwanatickey]

This is exactly how U.K politics works, get a motion going in Westminster and it gives hope to the beleaguered . Wow they have a voice in Westminster.

I tried to explain to a Kurd living in London who believed that the Kurds had a voice because one British Politician turned up and spoke at one of their rallies.

That it is an illusion.

And that was in 1990.

[Thorgal]

Whatever the outcome of the vote, let us not take this as a valid reason to pour hard earned tax payers money (aid) into the state. The Palestinians want their own independence, no problem, let them support their own with their own resource, aggregate for construction(?)

Funnily enough, I have American friends who say the exact same about Israel, how much of the hard earned Uncle Sam tax payers money do they take in each year.

$3.1 Billion this year, $120 Billion since 1949.

I start counting from 1878...

[Mossfinn]

I forgot how "informed" you are about the whole conflict.

The Israelis only want the Palestinians to get a recognized state when they live up to their pledge in the Oslo Accords - dealing with Israel directly - and stop the terrorist attacks. It is pretty simple really.

The Oslo Accords

Or are you still ignoring me?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine

[Jingthing]

Back to the topic.

While I know it pleases Israel demonizers to "stick it" to their object of disdain, the state of Israel, they might want to consider this movement for unilateral recognition of Palestine state without cooperation from Israel is not really the answer ... that it might just MAKE THINGS WORSE.

Here is a great argument from the Israeli left wing on that very point:

Officials in Israeli and British Labor parties trying to thwart vote on recognition of Palestine

"I understand why many of you will want to vote for anything which claims to be a contribution to peace. But immediate and unilateral recognition of Palestinian statehood does nothing to advance this vital cause. In fact, precisely the opposite," the letter continues.

The secretary-general emphasized in the letter that unilateral moves have led to more conflict and violence in the past, and noted that one of the principles of the Oslo Accords, signed between Israel and the Palestinians, is that any dispute will be resolved by negotiations.

"Unfortunately, unilateral moves simply play into the hands of those on Israel hard right, which wants to suggest that we have no partner for peace, and that the Palestinians do not want to sit down and negotiate with us," Bar wrote the British lawmakers.

http://www.haaretz.com/

[Wat dee]

Whatever the outcome of the vote, let us not take this as a valid reason to pour hard earned tax payers money (aid) into the state. The Palestinians want their own independence, no problem, let them support their own with their own resource, aggregate for construction(?)

Funnily enough, I have American friends who say the exact same about Israel, how much of the hard earned Uncle Sam tax payers money do they take in each year.

About 7.000.000 usd per day.

[simple1]

Hamas are only labelled as “ terrorists “ because it is convenient for Israel for them to be regarded as such

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119064/b-yehoshua-israel-should-call-hamas-enemy-not-terrorists

My thoughts are that if UK government were to recognise Palestine (a nation state that is still a figment of imagination) it would contribute to the momentum for Hamas being accepted as a non terrorist political entity, thereby such a move will be heavily resisted.

[NeverSure]

When a country is attacked by neighbors -- and pushes back and their land - that they claim - is taken - it is called the law of land warfare... been around for thousands of years ... Lesson to be learned -- Don't start a war with Israel - you will lose and lose what lands you hold... too bad - so sad...

But Israel has not been around for thousands of years but Palestine has.

Why can't people live in peace - we all came from the same place! Why all the fighting?

You're kidding, right? The historical record has a Nation of Israel at least 3,000 years ago.

There never was and still isn't a country called Palestine.

There never was a people called Palestinians until the PLO started calling themselves that, probably in your lifetime.

Historically there was a region called Palestine which included parts or the whole of several countries. It wasn't a country and none of the people were Palestinians.

The so-called "Palestinians" are squatters who fire rockets at the Nation of Israel, and some blame Israel for shooting back. Amazing.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts and replies removed. The topic is about the UK and the Palestinian territory.

[snarky66]

If I were running that operation I would lay out the condition that no rockets from the Muslim occupied lands would fly for 12 months. Then we can talk about it. Terrorists can burn in hell.

[Ulysses G.]

I think you will find that the Palestinians would be more than happy to go it on their own with no help from any other state; they just want their country back which was stolen from them.

The Palestinian Arabs NEVER had a country and they could not "go it on their own," because they have not built an economy. They have been concentrating on violence and terrorism for decades instead.

The reason the British are voting is because of a motion put forward by Grahame Morris, an MP from the Labour opposition party. If it passes, the motion is only symbolic and will do next to nothing. The official position of the government is to support negotiations for a two-state solution as the Palestinians have committed to do already.

[theoldgit]

Flame removed.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[snarky66]

These law makers are undoubtedly suffering from liberal dementia.

[Seastallion]

If that's the decision of the U.K, so be it. I don't really see how that changes the conditions on the ground in Israel, West Bank, and Gaza though. I know this reflects a change in tactics ... to try to push the Palestinian statehood cause ignoring cooperation from Israel. Whether that works or not, eventually brings a lasting peace with two actual states or not ... I don't know.

From Israel's POV, Hamas still is quite clear in their goal to wipe out Israel and for Israel to not exist with statehood being seen as a stepping stone towards that genocidal goal.

The old Hamas Charter is irrelevant and besides is often taken out of context. Israel constantly and spuriously use it as their reason to murder Palestinians while they "defend" themselves.

Netanyahu's Likud Party manifesto, however, is current and clear;

a. "The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel."

b. "Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem."

c. "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river."

d. "The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realisation of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel... The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."

The platform rejects outright the idea of a Palestinian State a full six years after the Oslo Accords which set out a road map for its establishment. While there is no explicit call for the physical destruction of a Palestinian State, Likud's Platform in 1999 and Israeli policies preceding and following it have ensured that there cannot be a State of Palestine; even hopes for it have been destroyed. Benjamin Netanyahu, remember, is the head of the Likud Party.

[Ulysses G.]

This is how much Israel has respect for the Oslo accords:

The Oslo accords did not address settlement activity at all. What is your point?

[Ulysses G.]

The old Hamas Charter is irrelevant and besides is often taken out of context.

It is not "old". It is their current charter and it is not taken out out of context. It calls for the destruction of Israel and the genocide of Jews all around the world. Please stop misrepresenting these evil terrorists as being anything else.

[dexterm]

Britain created the problem almost 100 years ago, so it’s fitting now that they should begin the process of rectifying it. I hope the vote succeeds and that other European countries follow suit, creating a momentum for change. US politicians have too much Israeli lobby baggage to be an honest peace broker.

Abbas should go straight for unilateral international recognition. Negotiating with Israel for the return of land stolen 47 years ago has been a complete waste of time, and proved simply a front for Israel to build more colonies on occupied land. Shame Israel and their ally USA before the world. This hypocrisy has gone on long enough.

Indirectly this will actually help Israel

1. to define its own borders..they have never fixed them and they seem to keep expanding.

2. to have two internationally recognized states rather than one day Israel having to absorb 4 million Palestinians within a single state solution.

[Steely Dan]

After the long sad history of British meddling in the region I see little point in making things worse by appearing to stick their oar in. As an aside I wonder why the British don't vote to hold the Palestinians to the responsibilities of being a state if they are so keen on conferring upon them the right to be one.

[Chicog]

This is how much Israel has respect for the Oslo accords:

The Oslo accords did not address settlement activity at all. What is your point?

Oh purlease.

The Oslo Accords laid down the areas that would be considered Palestinian territory.

Building settlements on it is not a very clever way to demonstrate your sincerity, no?

[jacky54]

Then why can one almost guarantee the blue suede shoes will be apoplectic with rage?

There should be an amount of rage over several wars and thousands of deaths in the last 60+ years all for nothing. The 'Palestinians' could have had a large state of their own in 1947 but turned in down. Instead they have waged war on the legitimate state of Israel ever since. The fact that Israel has defeated every attack does incite rage in some, lets hope Israel continues to defend their right to exist. There never actually was a Palestine and the conflict is not really about this at all, it's a religious conflict.

[dexterm]

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Then why can one almost guarantee the blue suede shoes will be apoplectic with rage?

There should be an amount of rage over several wars and thousands of deaths in the last 60+ years all for nothing. The 'Palestinians' could have had a large state of their own in 1947 but turned in down. Instead they have waged war on the legitimate state of Israel ever since. The fact that Israel has defeated every attack does incite rage in some, lets hope Israel continues to defend their right to exist. There never actually was a Palestine and the conflict is not really about this at all, it's a religious conflict.

Every single sentence in jacky's post is untrue. We have been there many times before so I dont wish to go off topic.

Why not look to the future rather than the past?

Israel claims to want peace within a two state solution, so what's the problem? UK is simply agreeing with them, with perhaps an emphasis this time about being more serious.

[jacky54]

The future is in the hands of the 'Palestinians' they have had several chances for a state but have continued to prefer war over peace, so far it has only brought them death.

[Godfree2]

I'm smart enough to know that Israel has been trying to make peace since the Palestinian Arabs declared war on them in 1948 and the Palestinians have refused time after time and continued with violent jihad. Are you smart enough to know the ones who started the violence in the first place and have refused numerous peace deals deserve the lions share of the blame?

as ever the American Israel apologist doesnt want the simple recognition of Palestine as a state. The Uk I hope and believe will do so soon.And Screw the USA and it's view. Lets have more and more EU and Western countries stand up. Do we need to remind everyone of the recent number of civilian casualities in the west bank dead or wounded by Israel's bombs and rockets, TEN THOUSAND in 2 months.

You obviously haven't seen the UK recently, mate.

Our country has been invaded by xxxxx and other extremists who have no regard for the rule of law.

The Mayor of London just stated that UK intelligence is monitoring THOUSANDS of extremists legally living in London as UK citizens.

Think before you speak.

[dexterm]

The future is in the hands of the 'Palestinians'

I agree and that's why they should go directly to the international community, who ought to stand up for what is right, as Sweden has recently. At least with the UK vote tomorrow we will be be able to see who the hypocrites are.

The Palestinians can never win militarily, but it looks like they are winning diplomatically.

[simple1]

The future is in the hands of the 'Palestinians' they have had several chances for a state but have continued to prefer war over peace, so far it has only brought them death.

As already said in this topic these issues have been endlessly debated on TV. I think it is fair to say during these discussions it's generally agreed over the years both sides have contributed to a failure to reach a deal. Below is analysis of the failure of relatively recent negotiations that underlines the complexity; some will agree, some disagree and the cycle will go on.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-zunes/us-culpability-in-the-fai_b_5455371.html

[Chicog]

After the long sad history of British meddling in the region I see little point in making things worse by appearing to stick their oar in. As an aside I wonder why the British don't vote to hold the Palestinians to the responsibilities of being a state if they are so keen on conferring upon them the right to be one.

It was actually the UN's idea to partition Palestine. Britain was against it.

But I think it's reasonable to say that a two-state solution now probably represents the best chance for peace (that's if there is one).