Sex Tourism

[Guest endure]

Somehow falang bar owners justify collecting the "bar fine".

In America this is known as pimping and is not only looked down upon but is illegal.

Anyone else have a problem with this?

Seems kind of rotten to take advantage of someones misfortune to make money.

The girls obviously do it because they were born poor with few opportunities.

Shouldn't falangs set a better example and not exploit them?

Why is your moral outrage confined to farang bar owners? What about Thais who own bars?

Edited July 22, 2006 by endure

[davethailand]

Its a bullshit subject at the end of the day.

We are'nt in the USA or the UK etc etc and the barfine rules existed before most farang barowners, who are they to change the rules? Especially in Pattaya.

FYO the girl collects a share of the barfine, do you really think the girls don't push for this? Gogo girls earn a salary of around 8000 - 12000bht per month plus tips from barfines and lady drinks which could add up to another 5000bht easily.

If i'm guilty of living of immoral earnings then

i live off of about 1000bht per week.

Edited July 22, 2006 by davethailand

[lamphun]

Not really appropriate in the Chiang Mai forum as there's very few farangs running that type of bar here. One that springs to mind doesn't charge barfines, though in reality he should pay the customers to take away the old grannies he calls "waitresses".

[tigerbeer]

what i have realised is that barfines have gone up in prices over the years. i wonder if the salaries of these girls have matched up proportionately. yes i do frequent bars so call me what you want.

[davethailand]

what i have realised is that barfines have gone up in prices over the years. i wonder if the salaries of these girls have matched up proportionately. yes i do frequent bars so call me what you want.

They've gone up to follow some salaries, some real stunners/ dancers earn 20k per month basic salary so the bars have gained a rep of having "the best" girls so they hike their barfine to match, 1000bht is the max normally.

[rishi]

As far as I have understood this concept of "barfines" is usually related to the socalled "girlie bars", which again usually refers to that kind of bars where it is obviously that the majority of present females are adverticing for their particular business --- the oldest trade on earth.

So - here we're talking about a male, who makes money on these females doing their trade (let it be in shape of barfines or an extra 5 baht on the beers, not to mention he's likely to sell more beers as compared to non-girlie bar.

Excuse if I'm wrong, but isn't "pimp" the proper English term for men, making profits on hookers? ... So why the fuzz, because someone call those men by their name?

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm no prude, but can we close this topic? It's not really about Chiang Mai, and it's about illegal activities in Thailand: prostitution and pimping. Have we said too much already?

[soic]

I guess you have a point... stretched but still a point. So by the definition of profiting by virtue of bar fine, I guess those that frequent the bars, and those that decide to take the women with them... I guess then they would be..... "sexual predators"? or maybe... "johns"? Not tourists... There are plenty of bars that don't have bar fines, by the way. The ladies aren't usually as nice, the bar usually isn't as nice. I mean it's the principle of the thing right? Why all of the guys that find the bar fine so deplorable should limit themselves to those bars, and leave the nice ladies to the guys that don't mind paying to upgrade. I don't recall ever seeing any bar owner with a gun to anyone's pecker, saying take the girl and pay me. Heck those guys ought to go out and find a nice street urchin, they're practically free, and think of all the freebies they could get, VD, HIV, but no bar fine, no high priced drinks, won't even have to buy them a drink. Talk about a bargain.... You're right guys... save your money.

As far as I have understood this concept of "barfines" is usually related to the socalled "girlie bars", which again usually refers to that kind of bars where it is obviously that the majority of present females are adverticing for their particular business --- the oldest trade on earth.

So - here we're talking about a male, who makes money on these females doing their trade (let it be in shape of barfines or an extra 5 baht on the beers, not to mention he's likely to sell more beers as compared to non-girlie bar.

Excuse if I'm wrong, but isn't "pimp" the proper English term for men, making profits on hookers? ... So why the fuzz, because someone call those men by their name?

[Ulysses G.]

My idea of a pimp is someone who tricks or forces girls into prostitution and then takes away most of their earnings.

A guy who gets a small commission for helping a girl do what she wants to do anyway doesn’t deserve that kind of label.

[Nawtilus]

Usually the moral high whorses people have a skeleton or 3 in their closets

[Thaising]

Am I in the chiang mai forum or have I come into the wrong place watching belligerent getting bar…bar…bar…

[rishi]

Of course, some or other decent guy might more or less naively think that by running his girlie bar, he is doing a favor to those unfurtunate teenage girls lured from their village into the bright light's district.

However, does it sound farfetched to believe that 99 % of bar owners providing "premises" for the working ladies, merely does it because they thereby boost their own profits?

[soic]

I think this thread has about wasted enough brain cells. I don't think that it's always so much running a girlie bar, as running a bar with girlie's. It's the same as Thailand in general. Those awful people offering those awful decadent, seedy, immoral services. The problem is, if a bar didn't have nice seats, good drinks and nice girls, customers wouldn't go to the bar. So the bar owner has to pay for better furniture, better booze, better glasses and hire prettier girls to work in the bar to get the customers to even go to the bar. Does all that speak more about the evil bar owner? or speak more about the evil customer? I mean, if a guy pays a girl to work at the bar, not to go out with a customer, and a customer wants the girl to go with him and not stay working at the bar, who is initiating the wrong doing here? Pay for the service you expect. Everyone has free choice... go to the bars without the bar fines and shut up. Don't go to the Mercedes dealer and complain that you should be able to get one for the price of a scooter, because they're just too darn expensive. I also don't think that the poor girls are lured out of their villages, they are sent out of their villages, and go to the places where they can earn good money. Which would be the more expensive bars that pay more and tend to have better clientel. It's a circle and it's all connected, from the bars, to the girls, to the customers, to the economy and back again. One link can't exist without the other, why should one link be considered more evil than any of the others?

Of course, some or other decent guy might more or less naively think that by running his girlie bar, he is doing a favor to those unfurtunate teenage girls lured from their village into the bright light's district.

However, does it sound farfetched to believe that 99 % of bar owners providing "premises" for the working ladies, merely does it because they thereby boost their own profits?

[rishi]

As a street level business owner myself, I do understand the needs to adhere to the environment in order to survive. However, not all means of survival are equally acceptable ...

Can't say I know much about the truth in that story, but I remember - about a year ago in Bangkok Post - to have read about minivans going up to Isaan villages from Pattaya/Phuket/Bangkok, driven by "pimps" and with a loadfull of former Isaan-village girls, now clad in gold rings, gold bracelets and gold necklaces - making "friends" with (of course) the most beautiful of the local teenagers.

I also remember about 2 years ago - down in one of the infamous sois of Patong Beach - one particular bar which really caught my attentention because of the very obvious youth and aparent "purity" of the girls. In that particular bar I couldn't but feel disgusted, because of the youth of the girls (not because of their trade).

The farlang owner of that bar, did present himself... Throughout the last year - every once in a while I see that disgusting person here in Chiang Mai. For all I know, he might be a poster here, or he might have posting friends, that feel the urge to defend his disgusting trade ...

[Pattayaman]

Many bar owners insist on a set number of "OFFS" every month if the girl does do the set number her salery is cut,how does this fit in with the compensation theory

[davethailand]

Many bar owners insist on a set number of "OFFS" every month if the girl does do the set number her salery is cut,how does this fit in with the compensation theory

Most gogo's require a certain number of off's and a certain number of lady drinks to enable them to get a full salary otherwise they get cut, they also get bonus's for the numbers.

The feeling is why should they pay the girl 10k per month for being lazy and not working for barfines and drinks, remember the gogo's income rely partly on barfine and ladydrink sales and this also attracts other girls who see how easy it is to get barfined and lady drinks from that bar.

WHEN many moons ago the blues factory had girls (before i changed the concept in there) the girls had to equal their monthly salary with bar fines and/or lady drinks or they would also be cut.

These were rules introduced before i was part of it.

[Pattayaman]

Thanks for the explanation Dave

[Khutan]

Lets get a few facts straight here, and we can start with this one:

I'm no prude, but can we close this topic? It's not really about Chiang Mai, and it's about illegal activities in Thailand: prostitution and pimping. Have we said too much already?

I strongly agree, so unless we start talking about the social issue, this topic will be a distant memory.

Moving on:

Not all places are equal, and there are certainly a good share of establishments that exploit their employees. I know of a number of places that do not give anything back to the girls from the drinks or barfines.

Next, personally, I feel the sale of flesh is immoral, and those who indulge in that trade get all they deserve. Is there any positive outcome allplying force or "Undue influence" to people so they do something they don't want to do ?

[rishi]

Lets get a few facts straight here, and we can start with this one:

I'm no prude, but can we close this topic? It's not really about Chiang Mai, and it's about illegal activities in Thailand: prostitution and pimping. Have we said too much already?

I strongly agree, so unless we start talking about the social issue, this topic will be a distant memory.

... do you hereby mean to say this topic haven't got any input regarding the social issue ?

[Khutan]

No, what I am saying is that this topic is heading towards making bars look better than they really are.

[Charma]

Definition

pimp

noun [C]

a man who controls prostitutes, especially by finding customers for them, and takes some of the money that they earn

Cambridge Dictionary

[rishi]

No, what I am saying is that this topic is heading towards making bars look better than they really are.

You're probably right --- but, now my wife says it's bedtime in CM, please give this poster a chance to reply tomorrow morning ...

[davethailand]

No, what I am saying is that this topic is heading towards making bars look better than they really are.

And why are they bad in the first place?

[PeaceBlondie]

No, what I am saying is that this topic is heading towards making bars look better than they really are.

And why are they bad in the first place?

Honestly, Dave, that's a good question. Are houses of prostitution, and the employees and managers who do such work, doing bad work? The word used above by Khutan, strictly as a personal opinion about the sale of flesh, is "immoral." I pointed out that it's illegal.

We usually don't condone things that are illegal or immoral. But this is Thailand, where the practice of prostitution, and lots of other things, are tolerated. I appreciate the fact that Thailand tolerates both prostitution and homosexuality, as well as having a lax attitude toward observance of laws that over-regulate most of our home countries.

Nobody is condoning human trafficking of unwilling workers, nor of underage workers. Those workers don't have the power to resist their enslavement. We might ask, are the adults who willingly work in the trade ...happy? Fulfilled? Adequately paid? Well, I see lots of Thais doing work other than the sex trade, who may look happy, but I surely wouldn't want their jobs, their pay, or their fulfillment. Their supervisors, also, are not doing the happiest work: "Hey Somchai, after you drain that septic tank, help Ponsarat chop down that big tree."

As a teacher in Thailand, I've looked at the laws regarding immigration, work permits, teacher's licenses, etc., and asked myself, "Do the Thai authorities really mean all this schtuff? Do they enforce the law seriously?" While we all respect the rule of law, even old-time farangs must still ask themselves, "Does Thai culture see law the way that my home country saw it?"

I've also been accused, correctly, of looking down too negatively at my own occupation in Thailand, education. Dave, you asked why gogo bars or girlie bars (or boy bars) were bad in the first place. I don't know. Paul Simon wrote in The Boxer, "There were times, I found some comfort there."

[Ulysses G.]

Paul Simon wrote in The Boxer, "There were times, I found some comfort there."

I always loved that line - even before feeling the same way myself.

[Donz]

I wish I was a pimp

[John K]

Somehow falang bar owners justify collecting the "bar fine".

In America this is known as pimping and is not only looked down upon but is illegal.

Anyone else have a problem with this?

Seems kind of rotten to take advantage of someones misfortune to make money.

The girls obviously do it because they were born poor with few opportunities.

Shouldn't falangs set a better example and not exploit them?

I see jringo did not consider what arraignments each bar has with it’s employees. Anything the girl does with the customer off the premises is between the girl and whoever she is with. My understanding is bars pay the girls back the bar fine money if they go out at or over the number of times agreed to per month. The girls job is to bring customers in to buy drinks and entertain them while they are there. So in actuality the word pimp does not apply because the money is not being kept. You are assuming the bars have explicit knowledge of what each girl does on her own. Bars make money on selling drinks, and not collecting bar fines.

You should wait a week or so and see. Dave The Rave will be writing on Stickman shortly. Dave is a bar manager in Nana plaza and his view is the only one from the inside looking out. I am sure he will answer your questions accurately and without assumption.

[Maestro]

WE THE BRITISH PEOPLE erm, oh I forgot what I was going to say...probably something about high tea

I thought it was the US Americans to call it “high tea”, whereas to the English it always has been, and still is, “afternoon tea”. But I could be wrong, perhaps there has been reverse contamination.

---------------

Maestro

[Kerryd]

So the OP doesn't like the idea of bar fines. The (farang) owners of bars that collect barfines are pimps.

Get a life for starters.

Tell me then Mr Know-it-all, how often do you try and get a girl working at McDonalds, or a restaurant, or a 7-11, to stop working at the drop of a hat and go out with you ?

Bet you do it all the time, no problems eh ? And I'll bet (in your world) that the business owners have no problems with you coming in and taking their staff away in the middle of their busiest periods ? This happens in bars all the time, and you get upset when they do something about it.

Bars make their money off selling booze. They hire women to help sell/serve that booze.

If a bar loses its staff to cheap charlie tourists looking for cheap dates, who is going to sell/serve the booze ?

The bar fine compensates the bar for the loss of the girl's services. As a result, she gets a portion of the fine, and doesn't get a cut in salary for missing that shift. The bar fine in NO WAY means the girl is going to have sex with you. That is a totally seperate arrangement between you and the girl. There are places in which this is easier to do than others, but that still is a seperate arrangement from the bar fine.

What do you think would happen to a girl working in another business that suddenly got up and left with a customer ? She'd be fired. What business would be able to operate if their staff kept vanishing on the spur of the moment ?

Frikkin world is teetering on the brink of a major war and you're up in arms about bar fines.

Pathetic.

[Pink Mist]

No, what I am saying is that this topic is heading towards making bars look better than they really are.

And why are they bad in the first place?

because they sell alchohol Dave