Sex Tourism

[kat]

Sing_Sling:

I understand what you are saying and trying to prove here, but these are only published statistics. Almost NONE of the statistics here are reliable to begin with (a well published fact so don't shoot the messenger please), and much of the economy is informal and blackmarket. The market share of blackmarket revenues alone makes the informal economy here an oxymoron.

And, that is no accident.

Hi Kat,

I am aware that the stats are not reliable (I did my Masters in Economic Theory and know it's all in the way it's presented), but using population alone as a yardstick makes the 5 million mark and the ensuing contribution a bit hard to accept. The conventional economic structure is not a hollow shell, however, and its impact on keeping the country afloat is strong.

It would be interesting if one could get figures for the black market.

Here's a rhetorical question: How was the conventional economic structure built?

But anyway, back to statistics and figures: 5 million may be too high based on population figures alone, which I might add, do NOT count everyone in the country as a matter of fact,

but I do agree that 2 million may be about right, or maybe even a little low, depending on DEFINITION.

Sex tourism isn't the only tourism in Thailand and as far as prostitution being an accepted part of Thai life . . . not a chance, Thais are some of the most conservative people in Asia.

funny then that there are far more "bars" for thais than for the "western" tourists

Why is that funny, or why does that surprise you?

I think it's difficult to make statements about conservative Thai culture, because their points and values of conservatism are much different than those of a Western perpsective. Thai conservatism has no bearing whatsoever on the quantity of prostitution, only the appearance it.

[mrbojangles]

Would Thailand's economy really suffer, or even break down? I think not. Have a look at the follwoing numbers and then extrapolate them:

Sing, i understand what you are trying to disect from the figures but without a doubt it would have a huge effect on the economy.

I was in the Royal Navy years ago, based at Chatham, Kent, UK. There were about 700 Navy personnel based there (on average at any single point).

Now the population of Chatham was about 100,000 people. The Royal Navy decided to shut down the dockyard and believe me that made the town a complete ghost town. I don't think it has ever recovered from that.

Just by relocating 700 people or so, it had a catastrophic economic effect on 100,000 people !!

[kat]

"Just by relocating 700 people or so, it had a catastrophic economic effect on 100,000 people !!"

Of course it did, because there is also a multiplier effect in any given economy that reaches beyond raw numbers.

I also appreciate Sing's comments, and I'm sure he is much better at figures than I am. But, we are all handicapped by raw figures alone here, because firstly there are no real official statistics here in the true sense of the word, and secondly huge chunks (both informal and illegal, such as kickbacks, etc.) are left out.

*edit typo

Edited July 24, 2006 by kat

[tourleadersi]

He barely changed any words and yet highlighted the similarities between some bar owners and drug dealers. I stand by my original opinion, it was a good post.

Except that it seems he only thinks this applies to "farang" bar owners, and has the opinion that all "farang" bar owners are pimps.

And as far as comparing bar owners to drug dealers ? Utterly ridiculous. Makes me seriously wonder if he has even the slightest clue what he is talking about.

Drug dealers like to get their clientele hooked on drugs. The addictive nature of those drugs doesn't matter to the dealer. All he is concerned about is getting more and more people hooked, so he can sell more and more drugs.

Try spending time in an area like the lower East Side of Vancouver. Talk to some of the social workers and some of the few that have been able to kick the habit. Talk to the police that have to deal with the dealers and their victims every day. Then tell me that drug dealers and bar owners are "same same".

What a load of crap.

The vast majority of the girls working in bars are there voluntarily. They may face pressure from family to earn money, but pretty much all the girls I've known came here on their own. They've heard from friends and other "relatives" about the big money that can be made.

Many don't tell their families what they do for a living. Some tell their families that they work as hair dressers and such. They want to be able to return home with their heads held high one day. Their families and neighbours may have their suspicions, but as long as it isn't voiced openly, everyone pretty much ignores the reality.

Many of the girls I know send at least half their income home to their parents.

Many of them have children at home, the result of dead-beat Thai boyfriends who dumped them when they got knocked up.

Yeah, they could take their grade 8 education and get a good job sweeping streets for minimum wage. Work their butts off in the hot sun everyday doing construction work, or collecting garbage. Of course, by the time they pay for their accommodations, food and day-to-day needs, it doesn't leave a lot to raise a child on, does it ?

So they go to work in the bars. Many of them earn more in a couple of years, than their parents earned in their whole lifetimes. Some use their money to pay off their parents debts and to support their children. Some bank the money. Some spend it like there's no tomorrow, just like I did during my first few years in the army.

Many girls work the trade for a few years until they have enough stashed away to meet their needs, then they quit and go home. Nobody forces them to stay.

Some meet nice guys, get married and quit working. Some don't (get married or quit working).

Meanwhile, bars exist to make money selling booze. They hire girls (mostly) to sell and serve the booze. Guys (mostly) go to the bars to drink and pick-up women. They could go to the malls, convenience stores and restaurants to pick up women (some do), but guess what ? Most of those women can't just up and leave work at a whim ! They'd get fired, period. No job, no money.

Bars are no different. They make most, if not all, their money selling BOOZE. Got it ? Booze.

A bar without staff wouldn't be able to operate now, would it ?

Yet some people seem to think that they should be able to take girls away from the bar, while they are working, without penalty or compensation.

They have no problem with morality when it comes to engaging in prostitution, but are resentful that a bar wants to be compensated for losing the services of an employee.

I tell you what. Next time you go to work, spend about an hour there, then just get up and leave. Go eat, hit a bar, get drunk and go home.

Go to work the next day. Spend an hour or two there, then leave. Go eat, drink, party and go home.

Do it all again the next day.

Oh wait. Probably won't be a next day, will there ? Your butt will probably be fired and rightfully so. What boss would put up with behaviour like that ?

Yet you seem to think that "farang" bar owners should put up with that kind of behaviour.

Which reminds me. Why is OK for the all the Thai bar owners (which represents the majority of bar owners) to charge bar fines, but "farang" bar owners are pimps for doing the same thing ?

Get something straight. The bar-fine has NOTHING to do with sex.

How many times do you have to be told ? The bar fine is a fee the GIRL has to pay in order to leave her workplace without penalty.

SHE has to pay it, even if SHE just wants to leave work by herself, or decides SHE doesn't want to work at all that day.

From what I've seen/heard, the amount SHE pays to bar fine HERSELF, is less than what is required if YOU are paying HER fine for HER.

SHE will (usually) get you to pay HER bar fine. In that case, SHE gets a cut of the bar fine.

Even if you pay HER bar fine, she is in NO WAY committed to having sex with you. Got it ?

I doubt you'll understand it though.

Quite a few people losers seem to think paying the bar fine gives them virtual ownership of the girl.

They then get upset and whine like little kids when they find out the girl still has the option, the choice, about what she is/isn't willing to do with said loser.

So tell us, is that what happened ? You went out the other night to a farang-owned bar, paid a girl's bar fine, and she refused to have sex with you ? So now you are bitter towards farang bar owners in general, and specifically those whose bars charge bar fines ?

Are we getting close to the truth here ?

Kerryd. I don't know who all that was aimed at, me for saying I thought leftcross' post was good but that I didn't concur, or leftcross for what it actually said? I read your earlier posts when you mentioned about bar fining a friend and going out to dinner and nodded my head. I did the same for a friends 'girlfriend' and would take her out for the evening, no strings attached. I have never read this thread as being directed at falang bar owners, I thought it was aimed specifically at the concept of the bar fine. It appears I missed something somewhere along the line....

[kerryk]

Would Thailand's economy really suffer, or even break down? I think not. Have a look at the follwoing numbers and then extrapolate them:

GDP (purchasing power parity):

$560.7 billion (2005 est.)

Labor force:

35.36 million (2005 est.)

Labor force - by occupation:

agriculture: 49%

industry: 14%

services: 37%

Population:

64,631,595

HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS:

570,000 (2003 est.)

HIV/AIDS - deaths:

58,000 (2003 est.)

If we count sex workers as part of the working population and use Kerryk's example of 5million -

Part of the workforce: Let's assume that the workforce is split 50/50, then out of 17 million women employed, roughly 30% would be sex workers.

Not part of the workforce: Let's assume that the non-work registered female population is 15 million.

We then deduct those 0-14 (7 million) and those 64+ (2.8 million) and we are left with 5.2 million women between the ages of 15-65.

The percentage of prostitutes among Thailand's non-work registered women would be a staggering 90+% . . . and that includes women in their 50's and 60's!!!

Kerryk, possibly your numbers are off, which means that your statment about how much Thailand's economy would suffer is highly inaccurate.

Sex tourism isn't the only tourism in Thailand and as far as prostitution being an accepted part of Thai life . . . not a chance, Thais are some of the most conservative people in Asia.

Let me try again on a smaller scale. I don’t think anyone would debate in the city of Pattaya 80% of the tourists are there for the naughty nightlife in some way shape or form. If that industry was stopped 80% of the hotels would go broke. 80% of the restaurants and clubs would also fail as would many of the condos. The banks who hold the mortgages on those businesses would not be able to collect more than 10 cents on the dollar. I believe this would lead to a number of banks failing. If a number of banks fail the baht would fail. It would take decades for Pattaya to reformat itself as a family seaside resort. Even if my 80% is in error 50% would have the same effect. I don’t think the Thai economy could stand the collapse of Pattaya. And I don’t think any economist would disagree with me. If you throw in 30% loss of revenue and jobs in BKK you have a major major problem.

If my 5 million worker number is wrong 2 million would have the same effect as would 1 million, economic chaos.

A 10% drop in tourism would start a recession. A 20% drop cause the baht to fail and a major depression.

A paid mistress is prostitution and that is what a mia noi is and that is accepted in Thailand.

As far as prostitution being an accepted part of Thai life perhaps you know a Thai male who has not used the services of a prostitute. I have never met one.

A Thai general asked me for my daughters hand in marriage. After the financial negotiations he started telling me about himself. One of the things he said was he had no girlfriends and did not date around. He only went to fish bowl massage parlors and always used protection. He had been drinking a bit before we started talking as he was nervous.

Sorry but I disagree with you about conservative people. I have lived two years in Vietnam and they are conservative. Thailand is not conservative. I have been to too many Thai entertainment venues in Bangkok to even remotely think of Thais as conservative.

[robert2]

This topic and thread is huge and covers a lot of issues concerning bar girls.

Prostitution has always been a part of Thai life. I have no utopian fantasies about things changing anytime soon (as long as the Thai government lets business go on "as usual").

One question remains though:

Would you want your daughter, mother or sister work as a prostitute?

If the answer is "yes" your morale still offends me. But you won't be a hypocrite.

[tourleadersi]

Let me try again on a smaller scale. I don’t think anyone would debate in the city of Pattaya 80% of the tourists are there for the naughty nightlife in some way shape or form. If that industry was stopped 80% of the hotels would go broke. 80% of the restaurants and clubs would also fail as would many of the condos. The banks who hold the mortgages on those businesses would not be able to collect more than 10 cents on the dollar. I believe this would lead to a number of banks failing. If a number of banks fail the baht would fail. It would take decades for Pattaya to reformat itself as a family seaside resort. Even if my 80% is in error 50% would have the same effect. I don’t think the Thai economy could stand the collapse of Pattaya. And I don’t think any economist would disagree with me. If you throw in 30% loss of revenue and jobs in BKK you have a major major problem.

Kerryk. You need to remember that if Pattaya's prostitution dissapeared overnight then so theoretically would its image. Take away that image and a large percentage of that 80% drop in trade would be negated by tourists who currently stay away because of the image.

[kerryk]

Economic Impact.

This is not Kansas. If a older Farang goes into a mall or grocery store and makes eye contact with a clerk and asks her out for a drink after work he will eventually be asked for money. If a older Farang goes to a coffee shop where uni girls hang out and buys one a cup of coffee and eventually a date he will be at some time be asked for money.

I would imagine one in ten Thai married men has a mia noi. That works out to 1,250,000 paid mistresses in Thailand.

Any way you look at it there approximately 5 million sex workers in Thailand. Five million people make a large impact on any economy. Sex workers defined as people who at some time during the year are engaged in pay for play. Estimates at some universities put the figure as high as 50% of the students. Massage workers; a high percent. Retail clerks; a small but significant number. Workers in the entertainment industry such as bars and clubs have a turnover of at least 100% a year so when you see a bar or club multiply the number of employees by 100% to get a yearly figure.

I would estimate there are 50,000 people working in the bar trade in Thailand that cater to people who come from outside Thailand. Conservatively I would estimate they make 300,000 Baht per year each. That is 15,000,000,000 baht that is spent mainly on consumer goods. That is 15 billion baht that does not come out of the ground like gas or oil and does not deplete a natural resource. That is 15 billion that goes to all levels of society including doctors, lawyers, police and ever other segment of society. To suggest that 15 billion would not be missed or is not a driving force in the economy is not accurate.

If one includes the Thai segment of the industry the total dollars are staggering.

I find it odd that Farangs get upset about this business. Thai people don’t seem to mind at all. I was at a birthday party a few weeks ago for a lady who owned a karaoke club. There were all different elements of society there, a banker, a doctor, a research scientist, soldiers, a few Japanese guys, restaurant workers, a couple of policeman and 10 bar girls who worked at various clubs. Everybody danced and socialized and was introduced to everyone’s babies and grandmothers. There was absolutely no social stigma attached to the bar girls or the bar owners.

If you have a hi so Thai wife ask her at what age her brothers started patronizing pay for play establishments. I think the answer may surprise you.

Another pearler - 5 million sex workers.

300,000 baht per year? All of them? Every single one? I believe some stunners do very well, but the entire bargirl population? And for every satang earned, are they swinging on their latest mobiles to their stockbrokers, checking out the most recent developments in property, stocks and bonds?

As for the first paragraph, I'll never look at taking the girlfriend to Starbucks in the same way again.

FYI - Some NGO's stick the sex-worker figure in Thailand much closer to 2mil.

Right, and so now we know why some men come here and pronounce this paradise, or the land of "alpha" women. It can appear that everything and everyone here is for sale in one way or another, and if you have the cash or the business acumen, then you too can make money off your little piece of paradise. Meanwhile, the business of prostitution in various forms has become one of the most developed and exportable skills in the country.

Yes, this is how it's done in Thailand. At one time, black people and other racial minorities had to accept their discrimination and second-class lifestyle as a way of life because that's how it was done; people and ethnic minorities in Burma have to accept military occupation, rape, and starvation because that's how it's done; in certain Islamic countries, women and girls are jailed for being raped because that's how it's done; entire villages and men in groups rape and molest children because that's how it's done.

I'm sorry, but that's not really a defense of ethics, if that's what we're talking about here. You come across as an intelligent man so I think you do know this.

But I agree, the statistics could be much higher than 2 million, which is why we don't have official statistics and definitions to begin with. There is a crisis here, but people are too busy enjoying and enriching themselves to do complain.

*another point of agreement KerryK: looking at things through Western eyes -- yes, I do, to an extent. As we all do to an extent when it comes to human rights and development - this is an unavoidable truth.

I understand the pull for a woman of very little means to gain a foothold through the most lucrative profession for women in this county. However, in Thailand this is no longer a foot-hold but a permanent stronghold, and yes, I do view that as a serious social problem for the future and dignity of women.

Kat are you really comparing being a bar girl to rape starvation, murder and child molestation?

As for human rights I would assume you would agree that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases.

I guess I should point out that it is not just bar girls but there are a whole lot of bar guys out there too.

Is it just as serious a problem for the future and dignity of men?

[kat]

Not really. For the most part, Pattaya is a shit hole. Polluted water, scarce water, average beaches and nothing special at all except for its trade.

*I know I'm going to get flamed, so I'm sorry in advance to the Pattaya lovers out there. This is just my opinion, but I believe most non-sex tourists to Thailand do not give Pattaya a second thought, excpet to stay away.

Edited July 24, 2006 by kat

[smartecosse]

Let me try again on a smaller scale. I don’t think anyone would debate in the city of Pattaya 80% of the tourists are there for the naughty nightlife in some way shape or form. If that industry was stopped 80% of the hotels would go broke. 80% of the restaurants and clubs would also fail as would many of the condos. The banks who hold the mortgages on those businesses would not be able to collect more than 10 cents on the dollar. I believe this would lead to a number of banks failing. If a number of banks fail the baht would fail. It would take decades for Pattaya to reformat itself as a family seaside resort. Even if my 80% is in error 50% would have the same effect. I don’t think the Thai economy could stand the collapse of Pattaya. And I don’t think any economist would disagree with me. If you throw in 30% loss of revenue and jobs in BKK you have a major major problem.

Kerryk. You need to remember that if Pattaya's prostitution dissapeared overnight then so theoretically would its image. Take away that image and a large percentage of that 80% drop in trade would be negated by tourists who currently stay away because of the image.

i find that very hard to believe. its the "scene" that made it busy not its wonderous beaches etc

[kerryk]

This topic and thread is huge and covers a lot of issues concerning bar girls.

Prostitution has always been a part of Thai life. I have no utopian fantasies about things changing anytime soon (as long as the Thai government lets business go on "as usual").

One question remains though:

Would you want your daughter, mother or sister work as a prostitute?

If the answer is "yes" your morale still offends me. But you won't be a hypocrite.

Does my mother in law count?

[leftcross]

He barely changed any words and yet highlighted the similarities between some bar owners and drug dealers. I stand by my original opinion, it was a good post.

Except that it seems he only thinks this applies to "farang" bar owners, and has the opinion that all "farang" bar owners are pimps.

And as far as comparing bar owners to drug dealers ? Utterly ridiculous. Makes me seriously wonder if he has even the slightest clue what he is talking about.

Drug dealers like to get their clientele hooked on drugs. The addictive nature of those drugs doesn't matter to the dealer. All he is concerned about is getting more and more people hooked, so he can sell more and more drugs.

Try spending time in an area like the lower East Side of Vancouver. Talk to some of the social workers and some of the few that have been able to kick the habit. Talk to the police that have to deal with the dealers and their victims every day. Then tell me that drug dealers and bar owners are "same same".

What a load of crap.

The vast majority of the girls working in bars are there voluntarily. They may face pressure from family to earn money, but pretty much all the girls I've known came here on their own. They've heard from friends and other "relatives" about the big money that can be made.

Many don't tell their families what they do for a living. Some tell their families that they work as hair dressers and such. They want to be able to return home with their heads held high one day. Their families and neighbours may have their suspicions, but as long as it isn't voiced openly, everyone pretty much ignores the reality.

Many of the girls I know send at least half their income home to their parents.

Many of them have children at home, the result of dead-beat Thai boyfriends who dumped them when they got knocked up.

Yeah, they could take their grade 8 education and get a good job sweeping streets for minimum wage. Work their butts off in the hot sun everyday doing construction work, or collecting garbage. Of course, by the time they pay for their accommodations, food and day-to-day needs, it doesn't leave a lot to raise a child on, does it ?

So they go to work in the bars. Many of them earn more in a couple of years, than their parents earned in their whole lifetimes. Some use their money to pay off their parents debts and to support their children. Some bank the money. Some spend it like there's no tomorrow, just like I did during my first few years in the army.

Many girls work the trade for a few years until they have enough stashed away to meet their needs, then they quit and go home. Nobody forces them to stay.

Some meet nice guys, get married and quit working. Some don't (get married or quit working).

Meanwhile, bars exist to make money selling booze. They hire girls (mostly) to sell and serve the booze. Guys (mostly) go to the bars to drink and pick-up women. They could go to the malls, convenience stores and restaurants to pick up women (some do), but guess what ? Most of those women can't just up and leave work at a whim ! They'd get fired, period. No job, no money.

Bars are no different. They make most, if not all, their money selling BOOZE. Got it ? Booze.

A bar without staff wouldn't be able to operate now, would it ?

Yet some people seem to think that they should be able to take girls away from the bar, while they are working, without penalty or compensation.

They have no problem with morality when it comes to engaging in prostitution, but are resentful that a bar wants to be compensated for losing the services of an employee.

I tell you what. Next time you go to work, spend about an hour there, then just get up and leave. Go eat, hit a bar, get drunk and go home.

Go to work the next day. Spend an hour or two there, then leave. Go eat, drink, party and go home.

Do it all again the next day.

Oh wait. Probably won't be a next day, will there ? Your butt will probably be fired and rightfully so. What boss would put up with behaviour like that ?

Yet you seem to think that "farang" bar owners should put up with that kind of behaviour.

Which reminds me. Why is OK for the all the Thai bar owners (which represents the majority of bar owners) to charge bar fines, but "farang" bar owners are pimps for doing the same thing ?

Get something straight. The bar-fine has NOTHING to do with sex.

How many times do you have to be told ? The bar fine is a fee the GIRL has to pay in order to leave her workplace without penalty.

SHE has to pay it, even if SHE just wants to leave work by herself, or decides SHE doesn't want to work at all that day.

From what I've seen/heard, the amount SHE pays to bar fine HERSELF, is less than what is required if YOU are paying HER fine for HER.

SHE will (usually) get you to pay HER bar fine. In that case, SHE gets a cut of the bar fine.

Even if you pay HER bar fine, she is in NO WAY committed to having sex with you. Got it ?

I doubt you'll understand it though.

Quite a few people losers seem to think paying the bar fine gives them virtual ownership of the girl.

They then get upset and whine like little kids when they find out the girl still has the option, the choice, about what she is/isn't willing to do with said loser.

So tell us, is that what happened ? You went out the other night to a farang-owned bar, paid a girl's bar fine, and she refused to have sex with you ? So now you are bitter towards farang bar owners in general, and specifically those whose bars charge bar fines ?

Are we getting close to the truth here ?

Kerryd. I don't know who all that was aimed at, me for saying I thought leftcross' post was good but that I didn't concur, or leftcross for what it actually said? I read your earlier posts when you mentioned about bar fining a friend and going out to dinner and nodded my head. I did the same for a friends 'girlfriend' and would take her out for the evening, no strings attached. I have never read this thread as being directed at falang bar owners, I thought it was aimed specifically at the concept of the bar fine. It appears I missed something somewhere along the line....

tourleadersi - you're not missing anything. kerryd is just having trouble coming to terms with what sort of a person he has become, that's all. he has managed to construct a lovely image in his mind where farm girls are given work by him and are not there to prostitute themselves. in his eyes the prostitutes are simply staff who are there to work in the bar. maybe his bar is different and there arent 10 girls sitting around eating som tam for 10 hours every day until someone gives him 400 baht for their flesh.

the drug dealer comparison is valid and easy to make. i simply changed one word and the whole thing read plausibly because there isnt that much difference between the pimps and the drug dealers.

his arguments are the standard defence - i didn't start it, the thais did it first, the girls come to me, i have to make a living etc etc the one thing that is missing is any kind of sense of moral evaluation of what he is doing.

his stupid statement that the bar fine doesnt have anything to do with sex is perhaps the most ridiculous statement i've heard since i started living in thailand. it is yet another sign that he is unable to be a man and admit what he is doing to himself.

[kat]

Kat are you really comparing being a bar girl to rape starvation, murder and child molestation?

As for human rights I would assume you would agree that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases.

I guess I should point out that it is not just bar girls but there are a whole lot of bar guys out there too.

Is it just as serious a problem for the future and dignity of men?

No, I think it's quite clear that I was comparing your rationale of "that's the way it is here" to similar rationales elsewhere. As an ethical argument it is simply meaningless.

Yes, I do recognize that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases - did I say anything different or contradictory to that effect???? Please go back and if you so choose comment on what I DID say, if you want to have a reasonable discussion about it.

I think the extent of prostitution as a whole is a serious threat to the future and dignity of the nation, as a matter of fact.

[robert2]

This topic and thread is huge and covers a lot of issues concerning bar girls.

Prostitution has always been a part of Thai life. I have no utopian fantasies about things changing anytime soon (as long as the Thai government lets business go on "as usual").

One question remains though:

Would you want your daughter, mother or sister work as a prostitute?

If the answer is "yes" your morale still offends me. But you won't be a hypocrite.

Does my mother in law count?

Your mother-in-law counts. This would also be about losing face and respect of the family name though.

[sbk]

Right, and so now we know why some men come here and pronounce this paradise, or the land of "alpha" women. It can appear that everything and everyone here is for sale in one way or another, and if you have the cash or the business acumen, then you too can make money off your little piece of paradise. Meanwhile, the business of prostitution in various forms has become one of the most developed and exportable skills in the country.

Yes, this is how it's done in Thailand. At one time, black people and other racial minorities had to accept their discrimination and second-class lifestyle as a way of life because that's how it was done; people and ethnic minorities in Burma have to accept military occupation, rape, and starvation because that's how it's done; in certain Islamic countries, women and girls are jailed for being raped because that's how it's done; entire villages and men in groups rape and molest children because that's how it's done.

I'm sorry, but that's not really a defense of ethics, if that's what we're talking about here. You come across as an intelligent man so I think you do know this.

But I agree, the statistics could be much higher than 2 million, which is why we don't have official statistics and definitions to begin with. There is a crisis here, but people are too busy enjoying and enriching themselves to do complain.

*another point of agreement KerryK: looking at things through Western eyes -- yes, I do, to an extent. As we all do to an extent when it comes to human rights and development - this is an unavoidable truth.

I understand the pull for a woman of very little means to gain a foothold through the most lucrative profession for women in this county. However, in Thailand this is no longer a foot-hold but a permanent stronghold, and yes, I do view that as a serious social problem for the future and dignity of women.

Kat are you really comparing being a bar girl to rape starvation, murder and child molestation?

As for human rights I would assume you would agree that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases.

I guess I should point out that it is not just bar girls but there are a whole lot of bar guys out there too.

Is it just as serious a problem for the future and dignity of men?

I'm with kat on this one too. You need to reread her post.

To put it simply stating that just because that is the way it has always been done is not going to give you a moral high ground to stand on. There have been many things (and still are) that are morally reprehensible but still "the done thing". That doesn't make them right, it just makes them there.

[davethailand]

Not really. For the most part, Pattaya is a shit hole. Polluted water, scarce water, average beaches and nothing special at all except for its trade.

*I know I'm going to get flamed, so I'm sorry in advance to the Pattaya lovers out there. This is just my opinion, but I believe most non-sex tourists to Thailand do not give Pattaya a second thought, excpet to stay away.

Polluted and scarce water?

I will say that there is alot more on offer here than you probably know about.

[kerryk]

This topic and thread is huge and covers a lot of issues concerning bar girls.

Prostitution has always been a part of Thai life. I have no utopian fantasies about things changing anytime soon (as long as the Thai government lets business go on "as usual").

One question remains though:

Would you want your daughter, mother or sister work as a prostitute?

If the answer is "yes" your morale still offends me. But you won't be a hypocrite.

I think you make a good point.

I was party to a discussion about a relative becoming a mia noi.

The entire Thai family was in favor of the deal as the sin sot was substantial. I did not know that sin sot was paid for mia nois as it was paid for brides.

Because my Thai is not that great at first I thought the Thai man had proposed to her. He was 20 years older and we discussed that.

After I slept on it, it dawned on me that the guy was already married with two kids. The deal was 2 million baht and a car and some business discounts that were substantial. The families have mutual business ties.

I didn’t say anything more about the issue but I guess my acquiescence means my approval.

Lets say it happened in Farang land and we convert the cash to the same standard of living.

If I convert the sum to dollars and lifestyle differences and cost of living it would have been the same as offering me about 4 million US dollars for allowing my daughter to be a mistress in the US.

Lets say I am a generous father and I split it with her that means each of us gets two million dollars.

So my question becomes if one converts money and living standard differences from Thailand to the West, would you allow your daughter (if she wanted to) to become a mistress for 4 million dollars?

It would be a no brainer for my mother or sister. You go get em girls just lay that 4 mill on me (I never got along with mom that well).

In the case of my daughter, I really don’t know. 4 million dollars is a lot of money.

My point is if one looks it as a Farang you have to convert the amounts of money to make the view equal. It would be like my daughter telling me in the US, "Dad I am going off to be a stripper at a high contact club and I will be sending you $100,000 a year is that OK with you. To make the comparison equal dad would be a sharecropper earning $5,000 a year.

Remember the movie about the guy who was offered a million to let his wife sleep with Robert Redford?

[tourleadersi]

Let me try again on a smaller scale. I don’t think anyone would debate in the city of Pattaya 80% of the tourists are there for the naughty nightlife in some way shape or form. If that industry was stopped 80% of the hotels would go broke. 80% of the restaurants and clubs would also fail as would many of the condos. The banks who hold the mortgages on those businesses would not be able to collect more than 10 cents on the dollar. I believe this would lead to a number of banks failing. If a number of banks fail the baht would fail. It would take decades for Pattaya to reformat itself as a family seaside resort. Even if my 80% is in error 50% would have the same effect. I don’t think the Thai economy could stand the collapse of Pattaya. And I don’t think any economist would disagree with me. If you throw in 30% loss of revenue and jobs in BKK you have a major major problem.

Kerryk. You need to remember that if Pattaya's prostitution dissapeared overnight then so theoretically would its image. Take away that image and a large percentage of that 80% drop in trade would be negated by tourists who currently stay away because of the image.

i find that very hard to believe. its the "scene" that made it busy not its wonderous beaches etc

Very true, but more than one destination has 're-invented' itself over the years. I'm not saying there would be a complete replacement, but it probably would happen as all those beer bars are bulldozed to make way for nice parks, water parks, amusements and other 'family oriented' attractions. A walk along the sea front along that promenade with nice lighting would be more than pleasant, especially if there were small cafe's scattered along it instead of the present offerings....

[kat]

Not really. For the most part, Pattaya is a shit hole. Polluted water, scarce water, average beaches and nothing special at all except for its trade.

*I know I'm going to get flamed, so I'm sorry in advance to the Pattaya lovers out there. This is just my opinion, but I believe most non-sex tourists to Thailand do not give Pattaya a second thought, excpet to stay away.

Polluted and scarce water?

I will say that there is alot more on offer here than you probably know about.

I'm sorry Dave. I heard you throw a mean TV pissup. I said polluted because Pattaya is directly down stream from the waste flow of BKK, right? And in regards to scarce water, Pattaya is or was having clean water problems.

I think you make a good point.

I was party to a discussion about a relative becoming a mia noi.

The entire Thai family was in favor of the deal as the sin sot was substantial. I did not know that sin sot was paid for mia nois as it was paid for brides.

Because my Thai is not that great at first I thought the Thai man had proposed to her. He was 20 years older and we discussed that.

After I slept on it, it dawned on me that the guy was already married with two kids. The deal was 2 million baht and a car and some business discounts that were substantial. The families have mutual business ties.

I didn’t say anything more about the issue but I guess my acquiescence means my approval.

Lets say it happened in Farang land and we convert the cash to the same standard of living.

If I convert the sum to dollars and lifestyle differences and cost of living it would have been the same as offering me about 4 million US dollars for allowing my daughter to be a mistress in the US.

Lets say I am a generous father and I split it with her that means each of us gets two million dollars.

So my question becomes if one converts money and living standard differences from Thailand to the West, would you allow your daughter (if she wanted to) to become a mistress for 4 million dollars?

It would be a no brainer for my mother or sister. You go get em girls just lay that 4 mill on me (I never got along with mom that well).

In the case of my daughter, I really don’t know. 4 million dollars is a lot of money.

My point is if one looks it as a Farang you have to convert the amounts of money to make the view equal. It would be like my daughter telling me in the US, "Dad I am going off to be a stripper at a high contact club and I will be sending you $100,000 a year is that OK with you. To make the comparison equal dad would be a sharecropper earning $5,000 a year.

Remember the movie about the guy who was offered a million to let his wife sleep with Robert Redford?

Yes, but you are comparing monetary values - which are not exact btw: 2 million baht does not equal 4 million dollars, by any cost indexed comparison - not ethical ones. This thread is about the ethics of making money based on prostitution, or on relationships based on economic transactions.

In the West, there are plenty of marriages and relationships founded on this same principle. However, there are many more that are not, and I think that is directly a result of the many options that women and men have available to support themselves, and make a better life. We also have plenty of desirable options that are NOT solely based on making lots and lots of money.

Edited July 24, 2006 by kat

[davethailand]

Not really. For the most part, Pattaya is a shit hole. Polluted water, scarce water, average beaches and nothing special at all except for its trade.

*I know I'm going to get flamed, so I'm sorry in advance to the Pattaya lovers out there. This is just my opinion, but I believe most non-sex tourists to Thailand do not give Pattaya a second thought, excpet to stay away.

Polluted and scarce water?

I will say that there is alot more on offer here than you probably know about.

I'm sorry Dave. I heard you throw a mean TV pissup. I said polluted because Pattaya is directly down stream from the waste flow of BKK, right? And in regards to scarce water, Pattaya is or was having clean water problems.

I think you make a good point.

I was party to a discussion about a relative becoming a mia noi.

The entire Thai family was in favor of the deal as the sin sot was substantial. I did not know that sin sot was paid for mia nois as it was paid for brides.

Because my Thai is not that great at first I thought the Thai man had proposed to her. He was 20 years older and we discussed that.

After I slept on it, it dawned on me that the guy was already married with two kids. The deal was 2 million baht and a car and some business discounts that were substantial. The families have mutual business ties.

I didn’t say anything more about the issue but I guess my acquiescence means my approval.

Lets say it happened in Farang land and we convert the cash to the same standard of living.

If I convert the sum to dollars and lifestyle differences and cost of living it would have been the same as offering me about 4 million US dollars for allowing my daughter to be a mistress in the US.

Lets say I am a generous father and I split it with her that means each of us gets two million dollars.

So my question becomes if one converts money and living standard differences from Thailand to the West, would you allow your daughter (if she wanted to) to become a mistress for 4 million dollars?

It would be a no brainer for my mother or sister. You go get em girls just lay that 4 mill on me (I never got along with mom that well).

In the case of my daughter, I really don’t know. 4 million dollars is a lot of money.

My point is if one looks it as a Farang you have to convert the amounts of money to make the view equal. It would be like my daughter telling me in the US, "Dad I am going off to be a stripper at a high contact club and I will be sending you $100,000 a year is that OK with you. To make the comparison equal dad would be a sharecropper earning $5,000 a year.

Remember the movie about the guy who was offered a million to let his wife sleep with Robert Redford?

Yes, but you are comparing monetary values - which are not exact btw: 2 million baht does not equal 4 million dollars, by any cost indexed comparison - not ethical ones. This thread is about the ethics of making money based on prostitution, or on relationships based on economic transactions.

In the West, there are plenty of marriages and relationships founded on this same principle. However, there are many more that are not, and I think that is directly a result of the many options that women and men have available to support themselves, and make a better life. We also have plenty of desirable options that are NOT solely based on making lots and lots of money.

The water situation seams to be ok here now, its not drinkable but i've been washing, gargling and

(very rarey) had a mouthful and i've not had a problem as yet.

Seawater is ok aroud Pattaya but not as clean as around koh Larn or samet etc.

[kerryk]

Kat are you really comparing being a bar girl to rape starvation, murder and child molestation?

As for human rights I would assume you would agree that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases.

I guess I should point out that it is not just bar girls but there are a whole lot of bar guys out there too.

Is it just as serious a problem for the future and dignity of men?

No, I think it's quite clear that I was comparing your rationale of "that's the way it is here" to similar rationales elsewhere. As an ethical argument it is simply meaningless.

Yes, I do recognize that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases - did I say anything different or contradictory to that effect???? Please go back and if you so choose comment on what I DID say, if you want to have a reasonable discussion about it.

I think the extent of prostitution as a whole is a serious threat to the future and dignity of the nation, as a matter of fact.

Kat,

Your words, “ I think the extent of prostitution as a whole is a serious threat to the future and dignity of the nation, as a matter of fact”

Prostitution is legal in some parts of the United States and Australia and is rampant in the parts where it is not legal. The same can be said for Great Britain France, Spain, Italy, Japan and almost any other country that I know of.

Maybe you can point out a country that does not have prostitution but I can’t think of any.

Far from being a threat to the dignity of a country it is the standard for earth and has been since humans began.

I can see numerous ways to make it safer for all parties involved but as far as effecting the dignity of a nation I don’t see that has anything to do with it. Or if it does at least we are all in the same undignified boat.

[Noel]

Very true, but more than one destination has 're-invented' itself over the years. I'm not saying there would be a complete replacement, but it probably would happen as all those beer bars are bulldozed to make way for nice parks, water parks, amusements and other 'family oriented' attractions. A walk along the sea front along that promenade with nice lighting would be more than pleasant, especially if there were small cafe's scattered along it instead of the present offerings....

When one of the waves of sporadic furore concerning the 'illegal 101 businesses' on Walking Street was in full cry not that long ago, I seem to recall some Thai 'visionary' who shall remain nameless authoritatively waxing lyrical about Walking Street-cum-Beach Road in Pattaya all set to become the 'Champs-Elysées' of Southeast Asia.

I am 'gohp'-smacked that to date it has never happened...

[kerryk]

Not really. For the most part, Pattaya is a shit hole. Polluted water, scarce water, average beaches and nothing special at all except for its trade.

*I know I'm going to get flamed, so I'm sorry in advance to the Pattaya lovers out there. This is just my opinion, but I believe most non-sex tourists to Thailand do not give Pattaya a second thought, excpet to stay away.

Polluted and scarce water?

I will say that there is alot more on offer here than you probably know about.

I'm sorry Dave. I heard you throw a mean TV pissup. I said polluted because Pattaya is directly down stream from the waste flow of BKK, right? And in regards to scarce water, Pattaya is or was having clean water problems.

I think you make a good point.

I was party to a discussion about a relative becoming a mia noi.

The entire Thai family was in favor of the deal as the sin sot was substantial. I did not know that sin sot was paid for mia nois as it was paid for brides.

Because my Thai is not that great at first I thought the Thai man had proposed to her. He was 20 years older and we discussed that.

After I slept on it, it dawned on me that the guy was already married with two kids. The deal was 2 million baht and a car and some business discounts that were substantial. The families have mutual business ties.

I didn’t say anything more about the issue but I guess my acquiescence means my approval.

Lets say it happened in Farang land and we convert the cash to the same standard of living.

If I convert the sum to dollars and lifestyle differences and cost of living it would have been the same as offering me about 4 million US dollars for allowing my daughter to be a mistress in the US.

Lets say I am a generous father and I split it with her that means each of us gets two million dollars.

So my question becomes if one converts money and living standard differences from Thailand to the West, would you allow your daughter (if she wanted to) to become a mistress for 4 million dollars?

It would be a no brainer for my mother or sister. You go get em girls just lay that 4 mill on me (I never got along with mom that well).

In the case of my daughter, I really don’t know. 4 million dollars is a lot of money.

My point is if one looks it as a Farang you have to convert the amounts of money to make the view equal. It would be like my daughter telling me in the US, "Dad I am going off to be a stripper at a high contact club and I will be sending you $100,000 a year is that OK with you. To make the comparison equal dad would be a sharecropper earning $5,000 a year.

Remember the movie about the guy who was offered a million to let his wife sleep with Robert Redford?

Yes, but you are comparing monetary values - which are not exact btw: 2 million baht does not equal 4 million dollars, by any cost indexed comparison - not ethical ones. This thread is about the ethics of making money based on prostitution, or on relationships based on economic transactions.

In the West, there are plenty of marriages and relationships founded on this same principle. However, there are many more that are not, and I think that is directly a result of the many options that women and men have available to support themselves, and make a better life. We also have plenty of desirable options that are NOT solely based on making lots and lots of money.

I was trying to equate the amount and its impact on the families life style as opposed to American lifestyle. In that case the two million baht and perks would have the same effect as 4 million on my previous lifestyle in the States.

[tourleadersi]

Very true, but more than one destination has 're-invented' itself over the years. I'm not saying there would be a complete replacement, but it probably would happen as all those beer bars are bulldozed to make way for nice parks, water parks, amusements and other 'family oriented' attractions. A walk along the sea front along that promenade with nice lighting would be more than pleasant, especially if there were small cafe's scattered along it instead of the present offerings....

When one of the waves of sporadic furore concerning the 'illegal 101 businesses' on Walking Street was in full cry not that long ago, I seem to recall some Thai 'visionary' who shall remain nameless authoritatively waxing lyrical about Walking Street-cum-Beach Road in Pattaya all set to become the 'Champs-Elysées' of Southeast Asia.

I thought it already was, or am I thinking of the Reeperbahn?

I am no visionary sitting here with rose tinted specs on I can assure you. My comments were in response to the idea that 'if' prostitution was to dissapear overnight then Pattaya would be like some of its current visitors, well and truly scr****d. That quite simply is not going to happen is it. But seeing as one person was theorising I put my 0.02 Satangs worth in to the mix.

Edited July 24, 2006 by tourleadersi

[kat]

Kat are you really comparing being a bar girl to rape starvation, murder and child molestation?

As for human rights I would assume you would agree that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases.

I guess I should point out that it is not just bar girls but there are a whole lot of bar guys out there too.

Is it just as serious a problem for the future and dignity of men?

No, I think it's quite clear that I was comparing your rationale of "that's the way it is here" to similar rationales elsewhere. As an ethical argument it is simply meaningless.

Yes, I do recognize that a woman owns her body and can do with it as she pleases - did I say anything different or contradictory to that effect???? Please go back and if you so choose comment on what I DID say, if you want to have a reasonable discussion about it.

I think the extent of prostitution as a whole is a serious threat to the future and dignity of the nation, as a matter of fact.

Kat,

Your words, “ I think the extent of prostitution as a whole is a serious threat to the future and dignity of the nation, as a matter of fact”

Prostitution is legal in some parts of the United States and Australia and is rampant in the parts where it is not legal. The same can be said for Great Britain France, Spain, Italy, Japan and almost any other country that I know of.

Maybe you can point out a country that does not have prostitution but I can’t think of any.

Far from being a threat to the dignity of a country it is the standard for earth and has been since humans began.

I can see numerous ways to make it safer for all parties involved but as far as effecting the dignity of a nation I don’t see that has anything to do with it. Or if it does at least we are all in the same undignified boat.

Here we go - comparing prostitution here to prostitution in other countries. Not all similar or like things are equal - not even prostitution itself! You know this, I know this, and we all know this, so let's not even waste time going there. *Perhaps YOU do not have to worry about travelling abroad as a Thai woman with a Thai passport, but most do and that is very real, and it did not appear overnight.

We are talking about scale and scope here - magnitude. The size and scope also determines the impact on social norms, development, formal economy, and future progress. If prostitution has begun to take on the same characteristics of a sizeable, formal sector in an economy that is still transitioning, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the impact this can have on the future skills set, education, development and ethics of a society.

*which is an example of magnitude, if you had to ask.

Edited July 24, 2006 by kat

[mittheimp]

Just some observations and corrections from recent posts -

In no way what so ever could 2 million Baht be equivalent to 4 million US dollars.

Thailand is no where near the most conservative country in Asia - (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Brunai, Indonesia, etc etc etc etc -- a very ridiculous statement!!

The reason Farang bar owners are being discussed and not Thai ones is because generaly this website is read by expats and not Thais - not to do with double standards.

Disagreeing with the idea that girlie bar owners are not pimps should not be put down to a disappointing experience with a girl when the bar fine has been paid.

Oh and prostitution is part of Thai culture, as it is in many asian cultures where they place a very high importance on female pre-marital virginity - this however is not really the issue being discussed!

[jdinasia]

So you think it is time to change the stereotype of a pimp. OK Talk to the image makers.

What have you done to change the system as it exists in Thailand? Do you have any positive sugestions to improve the lot of the people in the industry?

Being an armchair/internt critic is one thing, acutally doing something is a whole kettle of fish.

yes i have a positive suggestion, stop the pimps taking the bar fine to feed their own grubby little wallet.

i have no moral objection to prostitution or to the people who use prostitutes.

my only objection is to the middle men pimps who take money out of the loop for themselves

what do you expect me to do in thailand? can't vote, no thai nationality, and nobody gives a fk what i think. but that doesnt stop me from having negative feelings towards pimps, drug dealers etc etc

No moral objection to hooking ...... just a moral objection to the guys that make it safer <a bit> by moving it off the streets? oi

[kat]

Actually, the bulk of prostitution here is not even in the "street" or in bars, it's by freelance arrangements and other "non-sex" venues.

[Stephen Cleary]

Some of the guys really do come out with some truly amazing statistics from time to time.

Just how many Thais visit Pattaya as tourists? Are they there for the prostitution? I very doubt it! It doesn't matter how long they stay, but hundreds on thousands of Thai tourists pass through Pattaya/Bang Saen/Rayong every month.

Just how many Thais have condos etc... in Pattaya? A darned lot.....

Just how many foreign tourists descend upon Pattaya just because it is part of their package tour?

There is no way that 80% of the tourists that go to Pattaya, are there for the prostitution.

Even if the govt clamped down on prostitution in Pattaya it would not destroy the place in the long run. It would just attract a lot more 'proper' tourists instead.

Just how many Thai/Foreign families refrain from taking thier kids to Pattaya for fun because they dont want them to witness hundreds of foreigners sat on bar stools and being touched up by bargirls??

Can you remember Patpong? Once upon a time that was the seediest joint that you would ever take your family.

10 years back, i remember expats prophecising that Patpong's days were numbered because restaurants/bookstores/nice live music bars were moving in. They said Patpong would die if the commercialism continued - they were wrong. Now, the place is half respectable for even kids!

The same would and shall happen to Pattaya.

Edited July 24, 2006 by stevesuphan

[jdinasia]

Actually, the bulk of prostitution here is not even in the "street" or in bars, it's by freelance arrangements and other "non-sex" venues.

Not with Farang owners And those venues have their fee too ... to keep it off the street