Sex Tourism

[stumonster]

moral and immoral - sounds like a jihad to me.

further to the outrage expressed by the OP , I would like to suggest other ways of curtailing peoples free will.

any eatery serving some one who might make there living in an 'immoral ' fashion should be shut down so as not to provide sustanance to these abhorrant practices.

Building's which house people suspected of being part of this obscene way of life should be demolished , and vehicles which transport these mockers of decency to and from their places of vile worship need to be inpounded.

and while we are at it lets shutdown the power plants that provide electricity for these dens of vice.

or , you could just go back to talking to your mum.

[tourleadersi]

or , you could just go back to talking to your mum.

What a top line, made me spill my coffee!

[rob69]

Do you not think that some girls actually choose to work in a bar/karaoke/go-go bar etc!??

Lets do some simple maths, work in a shop/hotel etc, may get a salary between 3500 - 12000 Baht a month (the latter salary if you have a degree i suspect).

Go work in a bar/karaoke/go-go (which isnt forced), could potentially take home a monthly salary (including going with customer), of between 6000 - maybe 50000 Baht a month.

Many girls want the designer stuff/up to date mobiles/new clothes/make-up etc, and if they want it that bad i suppose some think ok i go work bar, etc, etc.

I did visit one go-go in Pattaya had a mamasal and that, really didnt like the set-up, and it looked like many girls (particularly in Pattaya i suspect) aren't there of their own accord. This i utterly condone, when someone is forced into this kind of work, as im sure all you guy (and girls) do.

A bar fine is a bar fine, lets not complain, if we dont like the ways of Thailand, then why stay here!?! A simple solution is try to stay out those kind of establishments!!

[Sing_Sling]

Do you not think that some girls actually choose to work in a bar/karaoke/go-go bar etc!??

Lets do some simple maths, work in a shop/hotel etc, may get a salary between 3500 - 12000 Baht a month (the latter salary if you have a degree i suspect).

Go work in a bar/karaoke/go-go (which isnt forced), could potentially take home a monthly salary (including going with customer), of between 6000 - maybe 50000 Baht a month.

Many girls want the designer stuff/up to date mobiles/new clothes/make-up etc, and if they want it that bad i suppose some think ok i go work bar, etc, etc.

I did visit one go-go in Pattaya had a mamasal and that, really didnt like the set-up, and it looked like many girls (particularly in Pattaya i suspect) aren't there of their own accord. This i utterly condone, when someone is forced into this kind of work, as im sure all you guy (and girls) do.

A bar fine is a bar fine, lets not complain, if we dont like the ways of Thailand, then why stay here!?! A simple solution is try to stay out those kind of establishments!!

Care to re-phrase that, Rob?

[JRingo]

So the OP doesn't like the idea of bar fines. The (farang) owners of bars that collect barfines are pimps.

Get a life for starters.

Tell me then Mr Know-it-all, how often do you try and get a girl working at McDonalds, or a restaurant, or a 7-11, to stop working at the drop of a hat and go out with you ?

Bet you do it all the time, no problems eh ? And I'll bet (in your world) that the business owners have no problems with you coming in and taking their staff away in the middle of their busiest periods ? This happens in bars all the time, and you get upset when they do something about it.

Bars make their money off selling booze. They hire women to help sell/serve that booze.

If a bar loses its staff to cheap charlie tourists looking for cheap dates, who is going to sell/serve the booze ?

The bar fine compensates the bar for the loss of the girl's services. As a result, she gets a portion of the fine, and doesn't get a cut in salary for missing that shift. The bar fine in NO WAY means the girl is going to have sex with you. That is a totally seperate arrangement between you and the girl. There are places in which this is easier to do than others, but that still is a seperate arrangement from the bar fine.

What do you think would happen to a girl working in another business that suddenly got up and left with a customer ? She'd be fired. What business would be able to operate if their staff kept vanishing on the spur of the moment ?

Frikkin world is teetering on the brink of a major war and you're up in arms about bar fines.

Pathetic.

Then it is perfectly clear that the girls are not in the bars to "work" in the bars but to draw in customers who are looking for someone to have sex with. They are prostitutes, the bar owner helps hook them up with customers and charges for his service, that makes him a pimp.

So Keeryd, you say the world is on the brink of a major war so I suppose that makes it okay somehow to condone immorality?

[sbk]

Do you not think that some girls actually choose to work in a bar/karaoke/go-go bar etc!??

Lets do some simple maths, work in a shop/hotel etc, may get a salary between 3500 - 12000 Baht a month (the latter salary if you have a degree i suspect).

Go work in a bar/karaoke/go-go (which isnt forced), could potentially take home a monthly salary (including going with customer), of between 6000 - maybe 50000 Baht a month.

Many girls want the designer stuff/up to date mobiles/new clothes/make-up etc, and if they want it that bad i suppose some think ok i go work bar, etc, etc.

I did visit one go-go in Pattaya had a mamasal and that, really didnt like the set-up, and it looked like many girls (particularly in Pattaya i suspect) aren't there of their own accord. This i utterly condone, when someone is forced into this kind of work, as im sure all you guy (and girls) do.

A bar fine is a bar fine, lets not complain, if we dont like the ways of Thailand, then why stay here!?! A simple solution is try to stay out those kind of establishments!!

Care to re-phrase that, Rob?

Condone:

To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure.

[Gary A]

I would simply suggest that Ringo and the league of bleeding hearts stay out of the bars in Thailand. That's the way things are done here in the Land Of Smiles and if you don't like it GO HOME.

There are groups of bible thumpers here. Maybe you could join their ranks and try to change things if you insist on staying.

[davethailand]

No, what I am saying is that this topic is heading towards making bars look better than they really are.

And why are they bad in the first place?

because they sell alchohol Dave

The swines

[davethailand]

I would simply suggest that Ringo and the league of bleeding hearts stay out of the bars in Thailand. That's the way things are done here in the Land Of Smiles and if you don't like it GO HOME.

There are groups of bible thumpers here. Maybe you could join their ranks and try to change things if you insist on staying.

That's the way things are done here in the Land Of Smiles and if you don't like it GO HOME.

I think that quote from Gary sums this whole issue up.

[sbk]

Well, davethailand that may apply for some people but not others. I find that a very simplistic approach to dealing with things as a farang living in Thailand.

Let me tell you about my experience living on an island that did not have bargirls until about 3 years ago. My husband and his family are all local and after having lived here for quite some time, I am quite in touch with what real local people think (ie natives who have lived here their whole lives).

None of them consider the bargirl scene the "real Thailand" and none of them want it on the island. Men and women alike do not like the attitudes, dress or behavior of most of these girls as very few of them dress in a manner that is considered respectable for here nor manage to behave in a manner that is considered polite here.

So, your "real thailand" may involve go-go bars and barfines but it is certainly not the entire country and it certainly isn't shared by any of the Thai people I know. Where do you suggest they go?

[mittheimp]

I would simply suggest that Ringo and the league of bleeding hearts stay out of the bars in Thailand. That's the way things are done here in the Land Of Smiles and if you don't like it GO HOME.

There are groups of bible thumpers here. Maybe you could join their ranks and try to change things if you insist on staying.

I don't think you have to be a bible thumper to consider the pros and cons of the sex tourist scene. I think its perfectly legitimate to discuss the moral and ethical questions associated with it. I agree its not a black or white situation - if the girls wernt in the bars where would they be? (farming rice in issan??) and what would the overall economy of Thailand be like??. It seems likely that many girls do have a lot of independence in their trade and are reasonably well looked after - on the other hand exploitation clearly happens and is something people should be aware of and not just brush it aside because it's Thailand.

To be really pedantic - the thread started off by calling farang girlie bar owners pimps -

pimp ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pmp)

n.

One who finds customers for a prostitute; a procurer.

intr.v. pimped, pimp·ing, pimps

To serve as a procurer of prostitutes.

You might not like the negative connotations associated with the word - but you can't really argue that they are not!

[mrbojangles]

Then it is perfectly clear that the girls are not in the bars to "work" in the bars but to draw in customers who are looking for someone to have sex with. They are prostitutes, the bar owner helps hook them up with customers and charges for his service, that makes him a pimp.

So Keeryd, you say the world is on the brink of a major war so I suppose that makes it okay somehow to condone immorality?

Ringo, why are you picking on the farang and in particular "men". To my knowledge, the majority of bars are owned by Thais and they practise this method of business. There are also many bars owned by women and they too practise this method (so in your view they would be pimpesses).

So, stop picking on farang and particular men.

Prostitution is as old as civilisation itself and goes on in nearly, if not every, country in the world (some legally and some illegally). Do i condone it? Well if the girl is willing, YES. If forced into it, NO. This "business" WILL go on, long after we are gone. So get used to it and if you want to crusade about it, look at how you can improve their health (i.e. not contracting and spreading AIDS) and their welfare.

Edited July 23, 2006 by mrbojangles

[Gary A]

I live out in the boonies of Thailand where VERY few farangs are ever seen. If you would like to go to one of the thousands of villages you would see that barfines are the norm rather than the exception. I happen to be happily married and don't use those services BUT I didn't just fall off the back of a turnip truck either. Thai men from the villages don't seem to have a problem with the barfine system. Since Thai men comprise 99.9999 percent of the customers out here in the sticks I would have to say that this is the way things are.

Well, davethailand that may apply for some people but not others. I find that a very simplistic approach to dealing with things as a farang living in Thailand.

Let me tell you about my experience living on an island that did not have bargirls until about 3 years ago. My husband and his family are all local and after having lived here for quite some time, I am quite in touch with what real local people think (ie natives who have lived here their whole lives).

None of them consider the bargirl scene the "real Thailand" and none of them want it on the island. Men and women alike do not like the attitudes, dress or behavior of most of these girls as very few of them dress in a manner that is considered respectable for here nor manage to behave in a manner that is considered polite here.

So, your "real thailand" may involve go-go bars and barfines but it is certainly not the entire country and it certainly isn't shared by any of the Thai people I know. Where do you suggest they go?

[davethailand]

Well, davethailand that may apply for some people but not others. I find that a very simplistic approach to dealing with things as a farang living in Thailand.

Let me tell you about my experience living on an island that did not have bargirls until about 3 years ago. My husband and his family are all local and after having lived here for quite some time, I am quite in touch with what real local people think (ie natives who have lived here their whole lives).

None of them consider the bargirl scene the "real Thailand" and none of them want it on the island. Men and women alike do not like the attitudes, dress or behavior of most of these girls as very few of them dress in a manner that is considered respectable for here nor manage to behave in a manner that is considered polite here.

So, your "real thailand" may involve go-go bars and barfines but it is certainly not the entire country and it certainly isn't shared by any of the Thai people I know. Where do you suggest they go?

And what can you do about the fact that "bargirls" are on your Island?

Nothing.

Thats what i'm saying! If a Thai decides to allow that kind of thing where it has'nt happened before then there is nothing we can do about it, we have to either leave or just get on with it.

I never said that my views of Thailand were all gogo bar and bargirl related but it does seem to me that sometimes there are double standards set here by authorities, government and the thai owners. They hate the whole idea and scene as it were but not the cash that it produce's.

[JRingo]

And what can you do about the fact that "bargirls" are on your Island?

Nothing.

Thats what i'm saying! If a Thai decides to allow that kind of thing where it has'nt happened before then there is nothing we can do about it, we have to either leave or just get on with it.

Reminds me of the old bumperstickers, "America, love it or leave it" that people put on thier cars in response to the Vietnam war protesters.

No, we don't have to either leave or get on with it Dave. There is a third option, stay and don't participate in the sordid business.

[sbk]

Prostitutes that cater to Thais and prostitutes that cater to farangs behave and present themselves in very different manners. So, altho there were some prostitutes on this island before it was not much (and no, I am not sticking my head in the sand, it is a very small island and I am well aware of the underbelly)and we are now under literal invasion from these girls. The crime rate has risen, certainly some locals have always broken into bungalows but now peoples houses are being broken into as well. Is this the bargirls fault? Some do, some don't but it shows that with prostitution and the sex tourists come a much shadier group of people. Believe me, after living in the same place for 17 years I do know what I am talking about, the changes are, to me and to my husband's many relatives, very obvious.

As for davethailand's point, well, I personally can't kick them all out, and the locals can't do much either when it is the local police collecting payments from each bar to stay open BUT that doesn't mean I don't have the right to an opinion. And it doesn't mean that I am not allowed to voice it, which seems to be the prevailing attitude.

[LoveDaBlues]

In the few small bars I've been in (classic example: bar, 4 tables, a pool table) that had BG I believe the 'business arrangement' is like this. The BG's are allowed to sit around and 'show their wares' for potential customers. I don't believe they are paid anything by the owner. If a customer buys a drink (even a soft drink) for the BG the BG will get half the purchase price. If a customer decides to take the BG from the bar for a night of bible studies the owner and BG split the bar fine. It seems to me with this arrangement the BG is actually paying the owner for providing her with a place to work from; much better (and safer) than the BG walking the streets like many do in large US cities. I don't consider the bar owner to be a pimp. A true pimp has a 'stable' of girls and this is his only business. The bar owner is just that; a bar owner. He may/may not provide some girls a place to work out of.

I have heard that there are Thai places where there are only girls and nothing else.........no bar, no music, just the ladies. Now a place like that I would consider the owner

to be a pimp in the classic sense.

Regardless of your opinion.....if you don't like the scene.....stay away from it. Plenty of places to go without BG.

This is a sticky issue (pun intended) and I can fully understand sbk's post. I have nothing against the BG scene but would not want it to invade my back yard.

LDB

[mittheimp]

Well, davethailand that may apply for some people but not others. I find that a very simplistic approach to dealing with things as a farang living in Thailand.

Let me tell you about my experience living on an island that did not have bargirls until about 3 years ago. My husband and his family are all local and after having lived here for quite some time, I am quite in touch with what real local people think (ie natives who have lived here their whole lives).

None of them consider the bargirl scene the "real Thailand" and none of them want it on the island. Men and women alike do not like the attitudes, dress or behavior of most of these girls as very few of them dress in a manner that is considered respectable for here nor manage to behave in a manner that is considered polite here.

So, your "real thailand" may involve go-go bars and barfines but it is certainly not the entire country and it certainly isn't shared by any of the Thai people I know. Where do you suggest they go?

And what can you do about the fact that "bargirls" are on your Island?

Nothing.

Thats what i'm saying! If a Thai decides to allow that kind of thing where it has'nt happened before then there is nothing we can do about it, we have to either leave or just get on with it.

I never said that my views of Thailand were all gogo bar and bargirl related but it does seem to me that sometimes there are double standards set here by authorities, government and the thai owners. They hate the whole idea and scene as it were but not the cash that it produce's.

So if you don't like something or disagree with it you should do nothing - this is Thailand and if you don't like it then go home??

nonsense!

There are 60 million Thais in Thailand - and believe it or not DaveThailand - they don't all think the same way and agree with each other about everything. One Thai doesnt necessarily have jurisdiction over the rest! Demonstrations and protest do happen and have had some success. Just because I'm not thai doesnt mean i Cant have an opinion and express it - should I tell my wife that she can't complain, protest, moan, discuss anything that happens in London coz she's not English and that if she doesnt like it then she can always just go home?

Edited July 23, 2006 by mittheimp

[davethailand]

Well, davethailand that may apply for some people but not others. I find that a very simplistic approach to dealing with things as a farang living in Thailand.

Let me tell you about my experience living on an island that did not have bargirls until about 3 years ago. My husband and his family are all local and after having lived here for quite some time, I am quite in touch with what real local people think (ie natives who have lived here their whole lives).

None of them consider the bargirl scene the "real Thailand" and none of them want it on the island. Men and women alike do not like the attitudes, dress or behavior of most of these girls as very few of them dress in a manner that is considered respectable for here nor manage to behave in a manner that is considered polite here.

So, your "real thailand" may involve go-go bars and barfines but it is certainly not the entire country and it certainly isn't shared by any of the Thai people I know. Where do you suggest they go?

And what can you do about the fact that "bargirls" are on your Island?

Nothing.

Thats what i'm saying! If a Thai decides to allow that kind of thing where it has'nt happened before then there is nothing we can do about it, we have to either leave or just get on with it.

I never said that my views of Thailand were all gogo bar and bargirl related but it does seem to me that sometimes there are double standards set here by authorities, government and the thai owners. They hate the whole idea and scene as it were but not the cash that it produce's.

So if you don't like something or disagree with it you should do nothing - this is Thailand and if you don't like it then go home??

nonsense!

There are 60 million Thais in Thailand - and believe it or not DaveThailand - they don't all think the same way and agree with each other about everything. One Thai doesnt necessarily have juristiction over the rest! Demonstrations and protest do happen and have had some success. Just because I'm not thai doesnt mean i Cant have an opinion and express it - should I tell my wife that she can't complain, protest, moan, discuss anything that happens in London coz she's not English and that if she doesnt like it then she can always just go home?

Moaning on here is'nt doing any good though... Is it?

What other plans of protest do you have?

Edited July 23, 2006 by davethailand

[davethailand]

Prostitutes that cater to Thais and prostitutes that cater to farangs behave and present themselves in very different manners. So, altho there were some prostitutes on this island before it was not much (and no, I am not sticking my head in the sand, it is a very small island and I am well aware of the underbelly)and we are now under literal invasion from these girls. The crime rate has risen, certainly some locals have always broken into bungalows but now peoples houses are being broken into as well. Is this the bargirls fault? Some do, some don't but it shows that with prostitution and the sex tourists come a much shadier group of people. Believe me, after living in the same place for 17 years I do know what I am talking about, the changes are, to me and to my husband's many relatives, very obvious.

As for davethailand's point, well, I personally can't kick them all out, and the locals can't do much either when it is the local police collecting payments from each bar to stay open BUT that doesn't mean I don't have the right to an opinion. And it doesn't mean that I am not allowed to voice it, which seems to be the prevailing attitude.

Yes you have your opinion and you are entitled to it!

I won't allow nudity or sexual behavour in my bar whatsoever and believe it or not some of the girls and farangs i see in Pattaya make me sick, I too voice my opinion but at the end of the day know that its falling on deaf ears so i just get on with life here.

[mittheimp]

This is a discussion - and why isnt it doing any good? we have the opportunity to read and understand other peoples opinions, perhaps learn new facts and maybe see things from a different perspective! I think thats all well and good.

I don't really understand those that say it's pointless and should leave well alone - not very progressive and suits the status quo -

Freedom of speech and opinion is a basic human right - whether it has the power to change - or not!!

[rob69]

To SBK

Care to re-phrase that, Rob?

Sorry i meant condemn (i think!). I just meant i dont agree with girls being forced to work in this type of work.

Bar fines eh!

[sbk]

To SBK

Care to re-phrase that, Rob?

Sorry i meant condemn (i think!). I just meant i dont agree with girls being forced to work in this type of work.

Bar fines eh!

Thats ok rob, we knew what you meant. Just picking on you a little bit

[tourleadersi]

To be really pedantic - the thread started off by calling farang girlie bar owners pimps -

pimp ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pmp)

n.

One who finds customers for a prostitute; a procurer.

intr.v. pimped, pimp·ing, pimps

To serve as a procurer of prostitutes.

You might not like the negative connotations associated with the word - but you can't really argue that they are not!

I'm not so sure mittheimp. I guess there are two ways of looking at it.

1. The bar owner fills the bar up with women so that he/she can profit from the bar fines.

2. The bar owner fills the bar up with women so that he/she can profit from the beer sales that will be earned from the customers drawn in.

In case 1 then yes they are a pimp, as they are offering prostitution services under the guise of a bar. In the latter however, the owner is filling the bar with attractive women to draw in punters, the fact that these same women may choose to leave their employer for the evening and participate in 'extra activities' is not the modus operandi of the bar owner. There was a bar in Newcastle that opened with all the staff being hired from a local modelling agency. This drew in the men which in turn drew in women in search of men. A month later the staff were replaced and the new employess began work in a very popular bar. Not saying the women in this instances were bargirls, but they were there to serve more than just beer, they were there to attract paying customers for the brewery.

I am certain that both are true, and as it has already been said, the subject is not black and white.

As for addressing the OP questions, you are only scratching the surface my friend. To get so wound up over the bar fine issue is to ignore the other areas of prostitution such as, exploitation, traffiking, corruption, indifference, hostility and abuse. Its a bit like getting annoyed at the makers of Katyusha missles in the present Middle East crisis. There are a lot bigger issues at play I am afraid.

[Stephen Cleary]

I did visit one go-go in Pattaya had a mamasal and that, really didnt like the set-up, and it looked like many girls (particularly in Pattaya i suspect) aren't there of their own accord. This i utterly condone, when someone is forced into this kind of work, as im sure all you guy (and girls) do.

Are the bar-girls in Pattaya etc... forced into the job!?

"Darling honey, i come work the bar because i need money to take care my family" blah blah.....

The girls could have found a factory, restaurant, street cleaning job etc.... but instead they chose prostitution because it's quick easy money. Then there is also the possible that they could get lucky and marry some rich generous Farang.

A lot of bar-girls talk a lot of garbage about needing money for this and that but in reality many of them send very little to their families. A high percentage of them spend their earnings on alcohol, parties, pubs, mobiles, clothes, drugs and even Thai boyfriends/husbands.

There are many a decent-hearted bar-girl but at the end of the day......none of them are forced into prostitution!

Edited July 23, 2006 by stevesuphan

[Gary A]

As a matter of fact I love living here and don't want to leave, BUT, if it got on my nerves that much I WOULD seek greener pastures. I keep a low profile and unlike others here on this board I don't even consider discussing politics or complain about the Thai culture. I'm a guest here and behave myself as such. We have a lot of Pattaya bashers and other bashers who are powerless to change anything and all they are accomplishing is creating hard feelings. It disgusts me what some farangs say about Thaksin when they know nothing and have no right to say anything. I was never in the love it or leave it camp BUT I have more in common with that group than with the basher group. If you live here you do NOT have the right to express all your opinions.

[JRingo]

There are many a decent-hearted bar-girl but at the end of the day......none of them are forced into prostitution!

Maybe you should read this:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=76574

[davethailand]

I did visit one go-go in Pattaya had a mamasal and that, really didnt like the set-up, and it looked like many girls (particularly in Pattaya i suspect) aren't there of their own accord. This i utterly condone, when someone is forced into this kind of work, as im sure all you guy (and girls) do.

Are the bar-girls in Pattaya etc... forced into the job!?

"Darling honey, i come work the bar because i need money to take care my family" blah blah.....

The girls could have found a factory, restaurant, street cleaning job etc.... but instead they chose prostitution because it's quick easy money. Then there is also the possible that they could get lucky and marry some rich generous Farang.

A lot of bar-girls talk a lot of garbage about needing money for this and that but in reality many of them send very little to their families. A high percentage of them spend their earnings on alcohol, parties, pubs, mobiles, clothes, drugs and even Thai boyfriends/husbands.

There are many a decent-hearted bar-girl but at the end of the day......none of them are forced into prostitution!

Do you know what the wage would be for "road sweeping" or "factory work"?

No they don't have to do it but are you aware of how many of them have absolute ****holes of parents who sit on thier <deleted> demanding money?

It does happen.

[davethailand]

As a matter of fact I love living here and don't want to leave, BUT, if it got on my nerves that much I WOULD seek greener pastures. I keep a low profile and unlike others here on this board I don't even consider discussing politics or complain about the Thai culture. I'm a guest here and behave myself as such. We have a lot of Pattaya bashers and other bashers who are powerless to change anything and all they are accomplishing is creating hard feelings. It disgusts me what some farangs say about Thaksin when they know nothing and have no right to say anything. I was never in the love it or leave it camp BUT I have more in common with that group than with the basher group. If you live here you do NOT have the right to express all your opinions.

Have to say i agree

[Stephen Cleary]

There are many a decent-hearted bar-girl but at the end of the day......none of them are forced into prostitution!

Maybe you should read this:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=76574

I was talking about bar-girls and the likes of Pattaya.

Under-age prostitutes (usually hill-tribes) are often sold into the flesh-trade/brothels by the parents. These are a completely different kettle of fish to the girls who head on the first bus from the north-east looking for a job in a bar.