Sex Tourism

[Sing_Sling]

I've stayed out of this discussion because of wonderful opinions that bargilrs are entrepreneurial businesswomen who own several houses, cars, earn more than doctors and are, basically, a second mother Theresa.

The point was rightly made as to how many of these Businesswomen of the Year end up with HIV and the rest . . . I have an acquaintance that might be able to give you a guided tour of a women's hostel, kerryk, where the majority of women are dying from AIDS . . . many of the bargirls.

davethailand comes up with his usualy gem of 'if you don't like it then don't complain or leave' or something to that extent. Gems, mate. Pure gems.

kerryd's geat words of wisdom: 'get a life' to someone who disagrees . . . Yes, well . . .

Why is it so difficult to accept that bar owners who operate under such circumstances are rightly called pimps? Can't change a fact.

Conversely, I don't buy the argument that Caucasian bar owners give Caucasians a bad name . . . Very few are in that trade and there are enough ways for Caucasians to give themselves a bad name.

All in all it is a business, is it not? Do the bar owners profit from bar fines? If so, then that makes them pimps. No value judgement here, not discussing the rights and wrongs of prostitution or the exploitation thereof.

A pimp is a pimp is a pimp.

Edited July 24, 2006 by Sing_Sling

[jbowman1993]

God, all this work keeping people from having sex, now i know how the Catholic church feels!

[Thaipwriter]

If we have learned one thing from this thread it is that it seems to be OK if your a whoremonger but not a pimp. Especially if your a farang.

I feel that both roles are on a similar rung of the social ladder, somewhere near the bottom but just above lawyer's and Farang real estate agents.

[Ling Kae]

JRingo, I drink in many bars and Go Go Clubs around Pattaya. Most are owned by Thais and some are owned by farangs. On many occasions I will be sitting in a bar having a beer when 2 ladies might walk up to the owner and ask if there are any jobs going to work in the bar. They come of their own accord and look for work in that bar. A lot of the time there are no jobs available so they move on to the next bar.

In all my years of travel to Thailand and the hundreds of bars I have frequented I have yet to see a woman forced into working in a bar. If I was to ever see someone handcuffed to a bed or a bar against their will I would report it to the authorities. If ever I saw under aged teenage girls being used as prostitutes I would report it also.

I know a lot of girls who work in this industry and the only thing they ever complain about is the lack of customers in the low season. At the end of the day it is their choice and as others say this is Thailand, live and let live.

I would also like to say that I find your comments regarding farang bar owners as being pimps for accepting bar fines offensive. It is you who can not understand the concept that a girl is in the bar to sell beer, dance or entice customers into the bar. Should someone want to take that girl away from her duties then someone somehow must compensate the owner. I have on many occasions seen bars where nearly all the girls have been barfined. They could not keep up with the service. In that case everybody pitches in and helps out, I mean the cashier, the mamsang, the boss even the 5 baht toilet collector. Why do you single out farang bar owners? The majority of bars and Go Go's are owned by Thais. If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the Thai bar owners then see how long you will last here.

[Sing_Sling]

If we have learned one thing from this thread it is that it seems to be OK if your a whoremonger but not a pimp. Especially if your a farang.

I feel that both roles are on a similar rung of the social ladder, somewhere near the bottom but just above lawyer's and Farang real estate agents.

No-one is even close to lawyers and caucasian real estate or timeshare mongers . . . !!!

[tourleadersi]

If we have learned one thing from this thread it is that it seems to be OK if your a whoremonger but not a pimp. Especially if your a farang.

I feel that both roles are on a similar rung of the social ladder, somewhere near the bottom but just above lawyer's and Farang real estate agents.

No-one is even close to lawyers and caucasian real estate or timeshare mongers . . . !!!

Sorry, but have you all forgotten about politicians?

[p_brownstone]

A Business – any business – hires staff to perform specific tasks and pays them accordingly.

I believe a Bar Owner should do the same - calculate the worth of each individual he employs and pay basic Salary appropriately, with each one being required to generate a certain level of income for the Bar from “Lady Drinks” – this would simply be comparable to a Sales Commission in any other business.

I employ staff here in Bangkok and pay them based upon what they contribute to the Company and how their worth compares to other staff I could employ in their place – i.e. their “market value” if you will.

All Staff are allowed a certain number of days per year for illness and occasional “personal” days when they need to attend family functions or visit Government Offices on personal business without having their Salary reduced.

If they wish to take time off work for any other reason their Salary is deducted pro-rata, i.e. I do not deduct more than the equivalent of their Salary for the time they are not working.

To my mind any Bar Owner should be able to operate in a similar fashion, with penalties if the girl does not achieve her “Sales target” and pro-rata Salary deductions if she does not work the hours specified.

Simply put, if he makes a profit on the girl’s absence then he is a Pimp.

Patrick

Edited July 24, 2006 by p_brownstone

[jbowman1993]

Public urination is just wrong. Except during the Million Man March when protestors burned down our porta-potties and I used my stream of justice to put out the hate.

[johnh101]

those unfurtunate teenage girls lured from their village into the bright light's district

Sorry guys but most of these unfortunate teenage girls are not lured , they come of their own free will trying to earn much, much more money than they ever could in Issan. I too have never met a bar girl who had been forced into her profession. It may happen but i would expect that it would be far more prevalent in the facilities catering for locals.

As for the risk of Aids, I have been visiting / living in Thailand for 14 years and I have only actually met 1 person dying of Aids. Condoms are proven to prevent the spread of the Hiv virus. And before the godbothers start, yes I do get out of Pattaya and have seen many other facets of Thailand.

So many people with so many opinions and too little time to actually open their eyes .....

[bangsaenguy]

and kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous. would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? no.

The bar owners that I now would much rather you not pay a bar fine. Keeping the girls in the bar to entice you to buy more beer is much more profitable.

[tourleadersi]

Public urination is just wrong. Except during the Million Man March when protestors burned down our porta-potties and I used my stream of justice to put out the hate.

Huh?

[leftcross]

JRingo, I drink in many bars and Go Go Clubs around Pattaya. Most are owned by Thais and some are owned by farangs. On many occasions I will be sitting in a bar having a beer when 2 ladies might walk up to the owner and ask if there are any jobs going to work in the bar. They come of their own accord and look for work in that bar. A lot of the time there are no jobs available so they move on to the next bar.

In all my years of travel to Thailand and the hundreds of bars I have frequented I have yet to see a woman forced into working in a bar. If I was to ever see someone handcuffed to a bed or a bar against their will I would report it to the authorities. If ever I saw under aged teenage girls being used as prostitutes I would report it also.

I know a lot of girls who work in this industry and the only thing they ever complain about is the lack of customers in the low season. At the end of the day it is their choice and as others say this is Thailand, live and let live.

I would also like to say that I find your comments regarding farang bar owners as being pimps for accepting bar fines offensive. It is you who can not understand the concept that a girl is in the bar to sell beer, dance or entice customers into the bar. Should someone want to take that girl away from her duties then someone somehow must compensate the owner. I have on many occasions seen bars where nearly all the girls have been barfined. They could not keep up with the service. In that case everybody pitches in and helps out, I mean the cashier, the mamsang, the boss even the 5 baht toilet collector. Why do you single out farang bar owners? The majority of bars and Go Go's are owned by Thais. If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the Thai bar owners then see how long you will last here.

JRingo, I take drugs in Pattaya. Most drugs are peddled by Thais and some are peddled by farangs. On many occasions I will be sitting with a drug dealer selling heroin when 2 ladies might walk up to the owner and ask if there are any drugs for sale. They come of their own accord and look for drugs from that dealer. A lot of the time there are no drugs available so they move on to the next dealer.

In all my years of travel to Thailand and the hundreds of drug dealers I have used I have yet to see a user forced into taking drugs. If I was to ever see someone handcuffed to a dealer I would report it to the authorities. If ever I saw under aged teenage girls being sold drugs I would report it also.

I know a lot of users who take drugs and the only thing they ever complain about is the lack of dealers when the police crack down. At the end of the day it is their choice and as others say this is Thailand, live and let live.

I would also like to say that I find your comments regarding drug dealers as offensive. Why do you single out farang drug dealers? The majority of drugs are sold by Thais. If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the Thai drug dealers then see how long you will last here.

NOT THE BIGGEST LEAP OF FAITH IS IT???

bar fine collcetors = pimps, simple. you people make money out of misery, just like drug dealers. pimps are considered scum in the west and that is exactly what you are in thailand.

Edited July 24, 2006 by leftcross

[tourleadersi]

JRingo, I drink in many bars and Go Go Clubs around Pattaya. Most are owned by Thais and some are owned by farangs. On many occasions I will be sitting in a bar having a beer when 2 ladies might walk up to the owner and ask if there are any jobs going to work in the bar. They come of their own accord and look for work in that bar. A lot of the time there are no jobs available so they move on to the next bar.

In all my years of travel to Thailand and the hundreds of bars I have frequented I have yet to see a woman forced into working in a bar. If I was to ever see someone handcuffed to a bed or a bar against their will I would report it to the authorities. If ever I saw under aged teenage girls being used as prostitutes I would report it also.

I know a lot of girls who work in this industry and the only thing they ever complain about is the lack of customers in the low season. At the end of the day it is their choice and as others say this is Thailand, live and let live.

I would also like to say that I find your comments regarding farang bar owners as being pimps for accepting bar fines offensive. It is you who can not understand the concept that a girl is in the bar to sell beer, dance or entice customers into the bar. Should someone want to take that girl away from her duties then someone somehow must compensate the owner. I have on many occasions seen bars where nearly all the girls have been barfined. They could not keep up with the service. In that case everybody pitches in and helps out, I mean the cashier, the mamsang, the boss even the 5 baht toilet collector. Why do you single out farang bar owners? The majority of bars and Go Go's are owned by Thais. If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the Thai bar owners then see how long you will last here.

JRingo, I take drugs in Pattaya. Most drugs are peddled by Thais and some are peddled by farangs. On many occasions I will be sitting with a drug dealer selling heroin when 2 ladies might walk up to the owner and ask if there are any drugs for sale. They come of their own accord and look for drugs from that dealer. A lot of the time there are no drugs available so they move on to the next dealer.

In all my years of travel to Thailand and the hundreds of drug dealers I have used I have yet to see a user forced into taking drugs. If I was to ever see someone handcuffed to a dealer I would report it to the authorities. If ever I saw under aged teenage girls being sold drugs I would report it also.

I know a lot of users who take drugs and the only thing they ever complain about is the lack of dealers when the police crack down. At the end of the day it is their choice and as others say this is Thailand, live and let live.

I would also like to say that I find your comments regarding drug dealers as offensive. Why do you single out farang drug dealers? The majority of drugs are sold by Thais. If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the Thai drug dealers then see how long you will last here.

NOT THE BIGGEST LEAP OF FAITH IS IT???

bar fine collcetors = pimps, simple.

Well said.

[Ling Kae]

JRingo, I drink in many bars and Go Go Clubs around Pattaya. Most are owned by Thais and some are owned by farangs. On many occasions I will be sitting in a bar having a beer when 2 ladies might walk up to the owner and ask if there are any jobs going to work in the bar. They come of their own accord and look for work in that bar. A lot of the time there are no jobs available so they move on to the next bar.

In all my years of travel to Thailand and the hundreds of bars I have frequented I have yet to see a woman forced into working in a bar. If I was to ever see someone handcuffed to a bed or a bar against their will I would report it to the authorities. If ever I saw under aged teenage girls being used as prostitutes I would report it also.

I know a lot of girls who work in this industry and the only thing they ever complain about is the lack of customers in the low season. At the end of the day it is their choice and as others say this is Thailand, live and let live.

I would also like to say that I find your comments regarding farang bar owners as being pimps for accepting bar fines offensive. It is you who can not understand the concept that a girl is in the bar to sell beer, dance or entice customers into the bar. Should someone want to take that girl away from her duties then someone somehow must compensate the owner. I have on many occasions seen bars where nearly all the girls have been barfined. They could not keep up with the service. In that case everybody pitches in and helps out, I mean the cashier, the mamsang, the boss even the 5 baht toilet collector. Why do you single out farang bar owners? The majority of bars and Go Go's are owned by Thais. If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the Thai bar owners then see how long you will last here.

JRingo, I take drugs in Pattaya. Most drugs are peddled by Thais and some are peddled by farangs. On many occasions I will be sitting with a drug dealer selling heroin when 2 ladies might walk up to the owner and ask if there are any drugs for sale. They come of their own accord and look for drugs from that dealer. A lot of the time there are no drugs available so they move on to the next dealer.

In all my years of travel to Thailand and the hundreds of drug dealers I have used I have yet to see a user forced into taking drugs. If I was to ever see someone handcuffed to a dealer I would report it to the authorities. If ever I saw under aged teenage girls being sold drugs I would report it also.

I know a lot of users who take drugs and the only thing they ever complain about is the lack of dealers when the police crack down. At the end of the day it is their choice and as others say this is Thailand, live and let live.

I would also like to say that I find your comments regarding drug dealers as offensive. Why do you single out farang drug dealers? The majority of drugs are sold by Thais. If you don't like the system I suggest you take it up with the Thai drug dealers then see how long you will last here.

NOT THE BIGGEST LEAP OF FAITH IS IT???

bar fine collcetors = pimps, simple. you people make money out of misery, just like drug dealers. pimps are considered scum in the west and that is exactly what you are in thailand.

I think you have a drug problem.

[leftcross]

pimp, i never touch them

[Thaipwriter]

bar fine collcetors = pimps, simple. you people make money out of misery, just like drug dealers. pimps are considered scum in the west and that is exactly what you are in thailand.

So when your humping away on top of your not barfined poor unfortunate lady what the He11 are you?????

[Sing_Sling]

leftcross - you do realise there will be this huge whoooooooooooooooooooshing sound for most . . . get ready to be taken to task for using drugs . . .

(as for jbowman - - - )

[jbowman1993]

You know, I rather like this God fellow. Very theatrical, you know. Pestilence here, a plague there. Omnipotence ... gotta get me some of that.

[Donz]

I think being a pimp would be a great job, there is nothing wrong with it unless they treat the girl like crap.

The pimp makes cash, the girls make good money and someone gets a happy ending.

How can that be a bad thing??

[tourleadersi]

Before people start leaping on leftcross for his 'drug habit' I think it is safe to say that he was using the guise of a drug user to highlight that there is very little difference between a drug dealer and a pimp (or bar owner). This highlighted the point very well, indicating that both profit from the sale of illegal goods and exploit others weaknesses to their advantage.

I would also like to succour and defend leftcross (although I know he doesn't need it! ) as from previous posts on other threads he is quite clearly not someone who partakes in the industry currently under discussion.

[tourleadersi]

I think being a pimp would be a great job, there is nothing wrong with it unless they treat the girl like crap.

The pimp makes cash, the girls make good money and someone gets a happy ending.

How can that be a bad thing??

I guess because the whole thing is illegal? Alright I know it is endemic, but making money this way can be construed as a bad thing owing to its illegality.

[jbowman1993]

TELEVISION ANNOUNCER: We now return to the Smurfs...

(on television screen)

Smurf #1: Hey, did you have a good time last night?

Smurf #2: Smurf-tacular!

Smurf #1: Yeah, I saw you leave with Smurfette.

Smurf #2: Oh man, as soon as we got out of the bar, she started smurfing me.

Smurf #1: Shut the Smurf up!

Smurf #2: Yeah!

Smurf #1: Right in the Smurfing parking lot?

Smurf #2: Smurf-Yeah!

Smurf #1: Oh! That is freaking Smurf!

[tourleadersi]

You know, I rather like this God fellow. Very theatrical, you know. Pestilence here, a plague there. Omnipotence ... gotta get me some of that.

I shouldn't worry about becoming omnipotent. There are some fantastic medicines out there nowadays, the old fella will be as good as new in no time.

[Ling Kae]

I would also like to succour and defend leftcross (although I know he doesn't need it! ) as from previous posts on other threads he is quite clearly not someone who partakes in the industry currently under discussion.

That's all fine and dandy and I respect him for the way he leads his life but just because he doesn't agree with something doesn't mean we all have to. He can live his live and we can live ours and in the mean time he should jump on a plane (if he is not here) and come over here. Then hire out Pattaya City Hall and invite all the bar owners for a meeting and proceed to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. Tell all the Thais how immoral they are and how their businesses do not agree with his way of life. I am sure they will welcome another farang with all his great ideas.

[Sing_Sling]

I would also like to succour and defend leftcross (although I know he doesn't need it! ) as from previous posts on other threads he is quite clearly not someone who partakes in the industry currently under discussion.

That's all fine and dandy and I respect him for the way he leads his life but just because he doesn't agree with something doesn't mean we all have to. He can live his live and we can live ours and in the mean time he should jump on a plane (if he is not here) and come over here. Then hire out Pattaya City Hall and invite all the bar owners for a meeting and proceed to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. Tell all the Thais how immoral they are and how their businesses do not agree with his way of life. I am sure they will welcome another farang with all his great ideas.

Where does leftcross state that he expects you to agree? This is a discussion forum and he is giving his opinion, as are you.

[jdinasia]

You seem to be missing the point Kerryd.

It is not the barfine in of itself that I find offensive, it is the pimps that charge it.

They are making money off of the least fortunate of our world.

It is clearly exploiting the girls misfortune of being born poor,

which makes the practice despicable.

Nor does JR seem to object to prostitution ... just paying the exrta cash to the guy that gives a girl a monthly salary.

Freelancer bars by nature are more dangerous for the customer. Not to mention that in two of the bars mentioned there are "uncles" <real pimps> running girls.

[tourleadersi]

I would also like to succour and defend leftcross (although I know he doesn't need it! ) as from previous posts on other threads he is quite clearly not someone who partakes in the industry currently under discussion.

That's all fine and dandy and I respect him for the way he leads his life but just because he doesn't agree with something doesn't mean we all have to. He can live his live and we can live ours and in the mean time he should jump on a plane (if he is not here) and come over here. Then hire out Pattaya City Hall and invite all the bar owners for a meeting and proceed to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. Tell all the Thais how immoral they are and how their businesses do not agree with his way of life. I am sure they will welcome another farang with all his great ideas.

He does live out here and holds strong opinions on the subject which he does not worry about vocalising. Whilst I don't agree with many of his points of view, he did make a valid point by comparing pimps with drug dealers. As I said in a previous post, if the bar owner is operating a bar for the sole purpose of making profits from prostitution then it is hard to describe them as anything else, however if it is to make money from beer then the area becomes a lot more grey.

As Sing Sling said, it is a forum and he can express his opinions here freely. If you don't agree with him then say so. I did and we had a fun couple of days banging heads.

[Ling Kae]

I would also like to succour and defend leftcross (although I know he doesn't need it! ) as from previous posts on other threads he is quite clearly not someone who partakes in the industry currently under discussion.

That's all fine and dandy and I respect him for the way he leads his life but just because he doesn't agree with something doesn't mean we all have to. He can live his live and we can live ours and in the mean time he should jump on a plane (if he is not here) and come over here. Then hire out Pattaya City Hall and invite all the bar owners for a meeting and proceed to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. Tell all the Thais how immoral they are and how their businesses do not agree with his way of life. I am sure they will welcome another farang with all his great ideas.

Where does leftcross state that he expects you to agree? This is a discussion forum and he is giving his opinion, as are you.

This.

bar fine collcetors = pimps, simple.

[leftcross]

That's all fine and dandy and I respect him for the way he leads his life but just because he doesn't agree with something doesn't mean we all have to. He can live his live and we can live ours and in the mean time he should jump on a plane (if he is not here) and come over here. Then hire out Pattaya City Hall and invite all the bar owners for a meeting and proceed to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. Tell all the Thais how immoral they are and how their businesses do not agree with his way of life. I am sure they will welcome another farang with all his great ideas.

i live and work in thailand. i'm married to a thai and don't use prostitutes. i don't need to tell people that being a pimp is wrong, they know that already. just don't insult my intelligence by denying what you are.

sing-sling - haha yes i was expecting that when i wrote it!! for the record i dont take drugs and rarely drink (maybe once a month)

tourleadersi - yes you are quite right, i don't mix in the circles of bargirls their pimps. i dont have anything against bar girls but i don't like men who make money off them. imagine you are a poor farm girl in a third world country trying to feed your family and you've got some stinking western loser funding his alcoholism by charging bar fines for your flesh. it's wrong, just plain wrong. havent these pimps got mothers wives and daughters of their own???

[Ling Kae]

As I said in a previous post, if the bar owner is operating a bar for the sole purpose of making profits from prostitution then it is hard to describe them as anything else, however if it is to make money from beer then the area becomes a lot more grey.

Most of the beers bars I visit sell great volumes of beer, I doubt such legitimate businesses survive on "bar fines". Calling owners of such businesses pimps is wrong.