Sex Tourism

[leftcross]

do they have prostitutes working in the bar? do they charge men money to take the prostitutes away from the bar for sex?

if the answers are yes then they are pimps.

is a pimp who deals drugs a drug dealer or a pimp? they are both.

[Chang_paarp]

Wow a thread that involes the bar industry running 14 pages.

To the OP and all the "they are evil" folk.

We have ascertained several generalities, there are exceptions to all;

The bar industry exists.

The people who operate these enterprises are of all races and genders.

The staff in these places are usually there of their own free will.

The reason for many of the people to work in this industry is financial.

This is due to lack of education or other opportunities.

The simplist way to reduce the flesh trade is to provide opportunity for the "workers". There is no way the trade will stop as it is labeled the oldest proffession for a reason. No culture in human history has eliminated the trade.

Given this what are YOU doing to help the people you claim are the victims of this evil.

Have you started any enterprises to give employment, and to increase the prosperity of an area?

Have you helped in the education or these people?

Have you had any positieve input into the lives of the people you claim are the victims.

Or are you sitting on you spotty behind decrying their employers and expecting someone else to do something.

Think about it and give a positive resonse.

[Ling Kae]

i live and work in thailand. i'm married to a thai and don't use prostitutes. i don't need to tell people that being a pimp is wrong, they know that already. just don't insult my intelligence by denying what you are.

sing-sling - haha yes i was expecting that when i wrote it!! for the record i dont take drugs and rarely drink (maybe once a month)

tourleadersi - yes you are quite right, i don't mix in the circles of bargirls their pimps. i dont have anything against bar girls but i don't like men who make money off them. imagine you are a poor farm girl in a third world country trying to feed your family and you've got some stinking western loser funding his alcoholism by charging bar fines for your flesh. it's wrong, just plain wrong. havent these pimps got mothers wives and daughters of their own???

You sound like a decent man. For the record I do not own any bars or businesses in Thailand. I just live here part time and enjoy the bar scene, I have also travelled extensively throughout Thailand. I just don't think that because a couple my farang friends get "barfines" from their businesses that they should be labled Pimps. The system of "barfines" that Thai bar owners have been using has been around for decades, it is part of Thai society and not you or I are going to change it, live and let live, TIT.

Edited July 24, 2006 by Ling Kae

[tourleadersi]

tourleadersi - yes you are quite right, i don't mix in the circles of bargirls their pimps. i dont have anything against bar girls but i don't like men who make money off them. imagine you are a poor farm girl in a third world country trying to feed your family and you've got some stinking western loser funding his alcoholism by charging bar fines for your flesh. it's wrong, just plain wrong. havent these pimps got mothers wives and daughters of their own???

I'm sure they do (especially with the mothers bit!) and I am also sure that they would move heaven and earth to try and keep the people they cared about away from such situations. To be honest it is a difficult one. I should imagine some (and I stress some) of these women want to work in a bar where bar fines are in effect because it provides them with a steady income and security as opposed to standing out on a street with all the inherent dangers that are there. I am sure again that some if not most do not hate the bar owner for creating the situation that they are in nor the nature of their employment.

Anyone who exploits the misery of others for profit is worthy of stronger words than 'pimp'. I don't believe all are like that though, perhaps some show a genuine concern for the girls that work for them? I honestly don't know. This is such a vaste topic. What can be said for sure is:

Some are forced into the profession, some go of their own free will.

Some bar owners are definately pimps, whilst others are not.

Some johns are bad, and others are not.

To those who are incensed by comments on this topic, be secure in your own choices. Whoever you are and whatever you decide, that is who you are. Do not be afraid to have your choices critcised. After all you are only one voice, but so is your critic.

[Insight]

A note to the mods.

I appreciate the flexibility to discuss an issue which is a business in Thailand. A business which is good and bad but still a business. It is a driving force in Thailand doing much to support the economy and especially in places where without it poverty would become epidemic and lead to starvation and hardship for all.

I think people forget about all the support people that are involved with keeping one bar girl in the field.

It is the same thing with a soldier. It takes 8 support troops to keep one combat soldier operational.

The same can be said for bar girls. There at least 8 other people not directly involved in the pay for play industry that owe their living to one bar girl.

Without them Thailand’s economy would crash.

I know this comment is from a few pages back, but I've got to say I've never heard such <deleted> in all the topics I've ever viewed on this forum. Utter <deleted>.

During my trip to the office this morning I've been surrounded by regular Thais doing regular jobs. The amount of people I've walked passed would outweigh the population of Nana Plaza several times over. My office building is full of Thais doing regular office jobs that would surpass the population of Cowboy exponentially.

To make any comment that states the economy of Thailand owes anything to the bargirl/prostitution trade smacks of utter ignorance. I suggest you go back to your books.

To those that say the girls work in the bars under their own free will - this isn't exactly true either. A lot more trafficking goes than people realize or the girls are prepared to admit (obviously a huge risk element if they do). It's an incredibly sad fact, but it still does go on, and it could well be staring you in the face the next beer bar you dig up your amazing economic facts of Thailand from.

Edited July 24, 2006 by Insight

[jbowman1993]

(Brian and Stewie are on a German tour bus.)

German Tour Guide: You vill find more on Germany's contributions to ze arts in ze pamphlets ve have provided.

Brian : Yeah, about your pamphlet... uh, I'm not seeing anything about German history between 1939 and 1945. There's just a big gap.

Tour guide: Everyone vas on vacation. On your left is Munich's first city hall, erected in 15...

Brian : Wait, what are you talking about? Germany invaded Poland in 1939 and...

Tour Guide: We were invited. Punch vas served. Check vit Poland.

Brian : You can't just ignore those years. Thomas Mann fled to America because of Nazism's stranglehold on Germany.

Tour guide: Nope, nope. He left to manage a Dairy Queen.

Brian : A Dairy Queen? That's preposterous.

Tour guide: I vill hear no more insinuations about the German people. Nothing bad happened. Sie werden sich hinsetzen. Sie werden ruhig sein. Sie werden nicht beleidigen Deutschland. You will sit down. You will shut up. You will not insult Germany. (Throws his hand up in a Hitler salute.)

Brian : Uh, is that a beer hall?

Tour guide: (Snapping out of it) Oh yes, Munich is renowned for its historic beer halls.

[tourleadersi]

To make any comment that states the economy of Thailand owes anything to the bargirl/prostitution trade smacks of utter ignorance. I suggest you go back to your books.

Not 100% true Insight. No one can argue that a good percentage of the women working in the industry come from some of the poorest regions of the country and that their earning power is vastly superior to a similar person who chooses not to work in the sex trade. It stands to reason that after all of their living expenses have been deducted some of that money does filter back to their home towns supporting families that would otherwise remain destitute. These families spend their money on new phones, medicines, motorbikes, homes etc so the money is directly injected into the economy. It is therefore reasonable to say that the economy of Thailand does owe something to the bar girl industry.

[jbowman1993]

Sorry, just keeping the mood light. Mood was getting much to dark and dank on this thread.

Peace

[Insight]

To make any comment that states the economy of Thailand owes anything to the bargirl/prostitution trade smacks of utter ignorance. I suggest you go back to your books.

Not 100% true Insight. No one can argue that a good percentage of the women working in the industry come from some of the poorest regions of the country and that their earning power is vastly superior to a similar person who chooses not to work in the sex trade. It stands to reason that after all of their living expenses have been deducted some of that money does filter back to their home towns supporting families that would otherwise remain destitute. These families spend their money on new phones, medicines, motorbikes, homes etc so the money is directly injected into the economy. It is therefore reasonable to say that the economy of Thailand does owe something to the bar girl industry.

Okay, the Sick Buffalo Index might take a bit of a nose-dive, yeah, but I still believe the knock-on effect to the rest of the economy will be minimal at best/worst.

[davethailand]

Somehow falang bar owners justify collecting the "bar fine".

In America this is known as pimping and is not only looked down upon but is illegal.

Anyone else have a problem with this?

Seems kind of rotten to take advantage of someones misfortune to make money.

The girls obviously do it because they were born poor with few opportunities.

Shouldn't falangs set a better example and not exploit them?

JRingo...can I clear one thing up?

As I understand it, you are perfectly happy to go with one of these girl and support the industry that way, and it's simply the bar fine you don't approve of, or a least the part of the bar-fine that the girl doesn't get, and only those bar fines raised by farang?

I have not gone out with a bar girl in close to 15 years now.

In my opinion, falang bar owners who collect barfines are nothing more than pimps.

They give falangs a bad name.

They give farangs a bad name.

Yes you are right. These do gooders that get into fights everynight and abuse the girls and thai's are angels.

[davethailand]

and kerryd - your arguments are ridiculous. would a bar be unable to operate without bar fines? no.

The bar owners that I now would much rather you not pay a bar fine. Keeping the girls in the bar to entice you to buy more beer is much more profitable.

In alot of cases of course.

[tourleadersi]

To make any comment that states the economy of Thailand owes anything to the bargirl/prostitution trade smacks of utter ignorance. I suggest you go back to your books.

Not 100% true Insight. No one can argue that a good percentage of the women working in the industry come from some of the poorest regions of the country and that their earning power is vastly superior to a similar person who chooses not to work in the sex trade. It stands to reason that after all of their living expenses have been deducted some of that money does filter back to their home towns supporting families that would otherwise remain destitute. These families spend their money on new phones, medicines, motorbikes, homes etc so the money is directly injected into the economy. It is therefore reasonable to say that the economy of Thailand does owe something to the bar girl industry.

Okay, the Sick Buffalo Index might take a bit of a nose-dive, yeah, but I still believe the knock-on effect to the rest of the economy will be minimal at best/worst.

I like it! The Sick Buffalo Index! Top line.

As I don't know the numbers working in the industry, nor how much they realistically earn I can't really dispute this any further. I would guess that the income is sufficient enough that certain law makers don't come down on it too hard for fear of losing popularity.....

[davethailand]

the attempts from the pimps to try and justify themselves makes sickening reading.

bar girls, on the whole, are not women who make lots of money and enjoy a great life. they are on the poverty line (or below it) and are forced to go with men to survive (and for their families to survive)

the farang pimps who peddle their flesh take a cut of that. i dont know how they can look at themselves in the mirror.

in my post before i said ... ''would a bar be unable to operate without barfines? No''

it's poor english (double negative) but it means that bars CAN operate without barfines a la gullivers (and everywhere in cambodia etc).

give the money direct to the girl and dont give a pimp the cash she needs.

Some girls would fit under your description, most in Pattaya would'nt.

There are girls here that earn over 70000bht a month and thats theirs, not a bar owners.

[sbk]

tourleadersi - yes you are quite right, i don't mix in the circles of bargirls their pimps. i dont have anything against bar girls but i don't like men who make money off them. imagine you are a poor farm girl in a third world country trying to feed your family and you've got some stinking western loser funding his alcoholism by charging bar fines for your flesh. it's wrong, just plain wrong. havent these pimps got mothers wives and daughters of their own???

I'm sure they do (especially with the mothers bit!) and I am also sure that they would move heaven and earth to try and keep the people they cared about away from such situations. To be honest it is a difficult one. I should imagine some (and I stress some) of these women want to work in a bar where bar fines are in effect because it provides them with a steady income and security as opposed to standing out on a street with all the inherent dangers that are there. I am sure again that some if not most do not hate the bar owner for creating the situation that they are in nor the nature of their employment.

Anyone who exploits the misery of others for profit is worthy of stronger words than 'pimp'. I don't believe all are like that though, perhaps some show a genuine concern for the girls that work for them? I honestly don't know. This is such a vaste topic. What can be said for sure is:

Some are forced into the profession, some go of their own free will.

Some bar owners are definately pimps, whilst others are not.

Some johns are bad, and others are not.

To those who are incensed by comments on this topic, be secure in your own choices. Whoever you are and whatever you decide, that is who you are. Do not be afraid to have your choices critcised. After all you are only one voice, but so is your critic.

Excellent post.

Lets keep the debate clean guys. And lets keep it a debate too, shall we? As kerryk said:

I appreciate the flexibility to discuss an issue which is a business in Thailand. A business which is good and bad but still a business.

As so many of our members are involved in bars, want to become involved in bars or have been involved in bars it is a topic relevant to many. It raises many issues that many wannabee bar owners should seriously consider before opening a bar. And perhaps lets others reconsider some preconceived notions as well.

[davethailand]

I've stayed out of this discussion because of wonderful opinions that bargilrs are entrepreneurial businesswomen who own several houses, cars, earn more than doctors and are, basically, a second mother Theresa.

The point was rightly made as to how many of these Businesswomen of the Year end up with HIV and the rest . . . I have an acquaintance that might be able to give you a guided tour of a women's hostel, kerryk, where the majority of women are dying from AIDS . . . many of the bargirls.

davethailand comes up with his usualy gem of 'if you don't like it then don't complain or leave' or something to that extent. Gems, mate. Pure gems.

kerryd's geat words of wisdom: 'get a life' to someone who disagrees . . . Yes, well . . .

Why is it so difficult to accept that bar owners who operate under such circumstances are rightly called pimps? Can't change a fact.

Conversely, I don't buy the argument that Caucasian bar owners give Caucasians a bad name . . . Very few are in that trade and there are enough ways for Caucasians to give themselves a bad name.

All in all it is a business, is it not? Do the bar owners profit from bar fines? If so, then that makes them pimps. No value judgement here, not discussing the rights and wrongs of prostitution or the exploitation thereof.

A pimp is a pimp is a pimp.

I've stayed out of this discussion because of wonderful opinions

And you should have stayed out of it, this generalization of all bar owners being the same is tiresome.

Edited July 24, 2006 by davethailand

[leftcross]

Wow a thread that involes the bar industry running 14 pages.

To the OP and all the "they are evil" folk.

We have ascertained several generalities, there are exceptions to all;

The bar industry exists.

The people who operate these enterprises are of all races and genders.

The staff in these places are usually there of their own free will.

The reason for many of the people to work in this industry is financial.

This is due to lack of education or other opportunities.

The simplist way to reduce the flesh trade is to provide opportunity for the "workers". There is no way the trade will stop as it is labeled the oldest proffession for a reason. No culture in human history has eliminated the trade.

Given this what are YOU doing to help the people you claim are the victims of this evil.

Have you started any enterprises to give employment, and to increase the prosperity of an area?

Have you helped in the education or these people?

Have you had any positieve input into the lives of the people you claim are the victims.

Or are you sitting on you spotty behind decrying their employers and expecting someone else to do something.

Think about it and give a positive resonse.

just because it goes on in doesn't mean you should say to yourself 'oh, i can't stop it so i might as well have a piece of the action'

that is the line that drug dealers and pimps choose to cross. they see misery and instead of feeling empathy they try and make some money out of it. most men would never cross those lines.

if i think about the archetypal pimp i see a jive-talking black american dressed in purple satin and driving his leopard skin cadillac while his 'bitches' do the work for him.

perhaps we need to change that to an overweight westerner in shorts and a red bull/chang vest riding a 50cc honda wave while his 'LBFM' do his work for him.

[Chang_paarp]

So you think it is time to change the stereotype of a pimp. OK Talk to the image makers.

What have you done to change the system as it exists in Thailand? Do you have any positive sugestions to improve the lot of the people in the industry?

Being an armchair/internt critic is one thing, acutally doing something is a whole kettle of fish.

[beammeup]

So you think it is time to change the stereotype of a pimp. OK Talk to the image makers.

What have you done to change the system as it exists in Thailand? Do you have any positive sugestions to improve the lot of the people in the industry?

Being an armchair/internt critic is one thing, acutally doing something is a whole kettle of fish.

This is a Blog dude where people voice there opinions

[Donz]

I love your avatar, I think that applies to so many people in Thailand

[Gary A]

Things have changed in the bar trade. It is the girls rather than the bar owner who dictate terms. An aquantance of mine handles a lot of money but doesn't really get to keep much. He has about 50 girls working at his Go Go and the stunners get a basic wage of about 20,000 baht a month. He often remarks that his top girls make more money than he does. He cringes when someone wants to barfine one of the stunners. He WANTS them in the bar. He must be careful because if the barfine is too high the customers get upset and won't come back. He makes his money from overpriced booze. If there are no beautiful ladies there the customers refuse to pay a high price for a drink and just leave. It is a balancing act and you can't afford to make many mistakes. All I tell him is that it's better him than me.

[tourleadersi]

I love your avatar, I think that applies to so many people in Thailand

And what does your avatar 'The Monobrowed Assasin' say?

[Totster]

This is a Blog dude where people voice there opinions

No.. this is a forum... the blogs are HERE

totster

[alexth]

I love your avatar, I think that applies to so many people in Thailand

Of course none of them are members on this forum

[Donz]

I love your avatar, I think that applies to so many people in Thailand

And what does your avatar 'The Monobrowed Assasin' say?

What are you talking about, the little kid is back. I can see him on my computer right now.

[tourleadersi]

I love your avatar, I think that applies to so many people in Thailand

And what does your avatar 'The Monobrowed Assasin' say?

What are you talking about, the little kid is back. I can see him on my computer right now.

The kid is back only unless she has the eyebrows of Zorba the Greek and is going to a fancy dress party dressed as a ninja turtle. Trust me Donz, I'm still getting the ninja. Don't know about others? Maybe I need to log out and come back in again?

[longway]

Before people start leaping on leftcross for his 'drug habit' I think it is safe to say that he was using the guise of a drug user to highlight that there is very little difference between a drug dealer and a pimp (or bar owner). This highlighted the point very well, indicating that both profit from the sale of illegal goods and exploit others weaknesses to their advantage.

I would also like to succour and defend leftcross (although I know he doesn't need it! ) as from previous posts on other threads he is quite clearly not someone who partakes in the industry currently under discussion.

i dont think left cross's post had that much relevance. replacing bar owner with drug dealer can just as easily applied to a shop keeper.

a bar owner may or may not be a pimp. but he does call pimps the scum of the earth. i dont think all bar owners fall into that category. some are scum and some are not whether or not they collect barfines has very little to do with it.

for a girl to be exploited the bar owner will maximise their income from the money the girls makes, in the tourist bars at least, this is mostly not the case.

call them pimps if you must but the other accusations that you and others bandy about is rather childish.

these girls face a dearth of choices, this is not the barowners fault.

btw i am not a barowner.

[Totster]

I love your avatar, I think that applies to so many people in Thailand

And what does your avatar 'The Monobrowed Assasin' say?

What are you talking about, the little kid is back. I can see him on my computer right now.

The kid is back only unless she has the eyebrows of Zorba the Greek and is going to a fancy dress party dressed as a ninja turtle. Trust me Donz, I'm still getting the ninja. Don't know about others? Maybe I need to log out and come back in again?

The Ninja is there...

totster

[Donz]

I love your avatar, I think that applies to so many people in Thailand

Of course none of them are members on this forum

Ofcourse not

[kerryk]

They are not all there because they want to be, and yes some of them are forced to work there.

You're losing ground now.

Very few are forced into the trade. Those that are, are generally confined to either the Thai or "Asian" only tourist venues, and they are put there by other Thais. Never heard of any farang involvement in any of those places.

Oddly enough, I've never heard a girl in a bar/club complain about the bar fine (except to try and get a farang to pay it for her). Most push for you to pay it, as it is a benefit for them.

I do know a couple girls (that have Thai boyfriends) that will often pay their own fine if the night is going slow, or they want to do something with their boyfriend.

They are making enough money that it isn't a financial burden for them to pay their own fine once in awhile, though they'd prefer if you paid it for them obviously.

Did you guys read this:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=76574&st=0

The girl ended up in a bar in Phuket as a virtual slave.

I suspect the same type of story for many of the bargirls.

Of course they will never tell you this.

Jringo. I gotta ask. How many bargirls do you know? You are out of the loop.

Bar girls are people. Most well to do. They are fun to be with. As long as you are not getting hustled by them.

Yes, you might have surmised I am in the business. I have been in the business for a long time.

I have been in the business in Taiwan, Thailand, Canada and the US.

I know 200 bar girls in Thailand.

They are not impoverished. They are not forced to work. They are relatively pleasant business women who have chosen that line of work until they can find a rich Farang to buy a bar or farm for them.

I ran strip clubs in Tampa and Denver. I owned bars all over the place. Thai women are the most pleasant and endearing women on the planet. They very rarely get hustled.

Your admirable sympathy is misplaced.

This country works fine.

There is a reason all of the men from Japan come here. There is a reason all the men from the West come here. There is a reason all the men from China come here.

It is not to take advantage of Thai women. It is to meet Thai women who are the Alpha women of the planet.

I went to the grocery store yesterday. I liked the lady who weighed my bananas. I asked her out for a drink. The drink turned out to be dinner and dinner turned out to be most of the evening and she told me she needed a little extra cash for her rent.

I didn’t think this unusual. This is Thailand and she was worth every penny.

....and out of the 200 girls you know - how many have suffered serious STD infection, even HIV? How many are now dependent on drugs? How many have been the victim of physical abuse? How many end up in bonded slavery due to debts / gambling etc? Yes we all know there are relative success stories and the picture isn't as often painted in the media - however the ridiculous rosy picture you paint suggest you aren't anywhere near in touch with reality. There are good, clear and intelligent arguments in favour of legalised and controlled prostitution however these have to be balanced with the downside - something you seem unable to acknowledge exists at all.

I honestly don’t know any who have aids. I know a few with a gambling problem and a few with a drug problem. The great majority have been in the business 3 years plus and are doing well. I know one lady who owns a couple of business North of Chiang Mai who I met in 1969. She is still hustling, bless her heart, although she does not really need the money she is 60 plus years.

I would not be exposed to women who are having problems because I have not met these women as a customer. I met them because I have friends who own clubs and or are involved with them in business dealings outside of the club that have to do with investment.

You are right about me not seeing the bad side of the business because all of the women I know have money and are looking to invest it. If I had to guess I would say 10% of the bar ladies do very well 40% do OK and the rest do less than that.

[tourleadersi]

Before people start leaping on leftcross for his 'drug habit' I think it is safe to say that he was using the guise of a drug user to highlight that there is very little difference between a drug dealer and a pimp (or bar owner). This highlighted the point very well, indicating that both profit from the sale of illegal goods and exploit others weaknesses to their advantage.

I would also like to succour and defend leftcross (although I know he doesn't need it! ) as from previous posts on other threads he is quite clearly not someone who partakes in the industry currently under discussion.

i dont think left cross's post had that much relevance. replacing bar owner with drug dealer can just as easily applied to a shop keeper. Except a shopkeeper is selling goods legally....[/

a bar owner may or may not be a pimp. but he does call pimps the scum of the earth. Pot and Kettle then.

i dont think all bar owners fall into that category. I agree and have said as much.

some are scum and some are not whether or not they collect barfines has very little to do with it.

for a girl to be exploited the bar owner will maximise their income from the money the girls makes, in the tourist bars at least, this is mostly not the case. But it does happen....

call them pimps if you must but the other accusations that you and others bandy about is rather childish. If you read my posts you will notice that I don't agree with most of what leftcross says, but I will acknowledge a good, well thought out post when I see one.

these girls face a dearth of choices, this is not the barowners fault. As leftcross said in his post linking it to drug taking, the addict has a choice. So its not the dealers fault? They are above repute?

btw i am not a barowner. Nor am I or most on here I should imagine. Members like Dave who do own a bar but not of the type under discussion do have a lot of valuable info to share however.