Would Ebola Make You Leave Chiang Mai

[mccw]

There is a difference between "nanny state" as in the cradle to grave "benefits" system and over regulation and taxing; and the sensible functioning of what a states primary job should be , ie protecting it's citizens from harm such as infectious diseases and terrorism and such.

Seems most of west are great at the soppy nanny part and leave a lot to be desired in the physical protection department.

Such weak laws on detention and deportation; weak control of borders; weak law & order enforcement. In the UK especially weak on terror promotion and extremist preaching and terribly soft sentencing for worst criminals like pedos while still locking people up for peacefully trading in relatively safe recreational drugs.

[mccw]

Dr. Craig Spencer, an emergency doctor who was working with Doctors Without Borders in Ebola-stricken Guinea earlier this month, returned to the city last Friday.

Since then, city officials say, he visited a city park, had a meal at a restaurant, visited a Brooklyn bowling alley, took at least three subway trains and went for a 3-mile (4.8-km) run.

Very low risk any one else catching it?

The others could have spread it around already too and we just don't know it yet. Like that nurse on a plane and what about the walk through airport, a sneeze in a taxi, who knows.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

According to the news reports I read this morning, the doctor began to feel ill on Wednesday, stayed home at that point, and then felt worse on Thursday. At that point, he and his fiancee call authorities and he was taken to the hospital by an EMT crew in full Ebola gear.

So, the upshot of the account by NY health authorities, is they're claiming that the doctor most likely was not symptomatic and not contagious in the earlier days when he was out and around.

I have no idea if that's true, but that's the account the NY authorities are presenting, based on the account from the doctor.

Edited October 24, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Konini]

I hope it is true, but if I were in charge of panic control I'd be saying exactly that regardless.

I still call him irresponsible and foolhardy - what if he'd started getting the symptoms, therefore became contagious, whilst on the plane? I really think that at least 10 days of self quarantine before heading out to the airport would have been the only responsible thing to do. He could quite easily have holed up in a hotel rather than take the risk. It's a long flight from anywhere in Africa to America, he could quite easily have started showing symptom on the plane. Very low chance that any general public will have contracted it in New York, but still shockingly irresponsible for him to have flown home. What would have happened if he had started showing symptoms on the flight? Yes, anyone on the flight could have been infected, and any one of them could have started to show symptoms mid-flight, but it's been said time and again it isn't a particularly easy things to catch. And he had been exposed to people who were contagious, not carriers, but actually contagious. It's not only the people on the plane - he would have had to be met at the airport, providing he was sensible enough to alert people and not go through immigration etc. And if he weren't sensible enough to self quarantine, perhaps he wouldn't have.

The upshot of this may be a backlash against MSF. I've always had a lot of respect for them, but I would have thought that they would be enforcing some kind of halfway house quarantine for all volunteers who have been directly exposed to ebola, and frankly I'm very disappointed that they haven't got anything in place. I'm disappointed, I wonder if the people of New York will be angry.

[mesquite]

Who/what is MSF?

[Chiengmaijoe]

Dr. Craig Spencer, an emergency doctor who was working with Doctors Without Borders in Ebola-stricken Guinea earlier this month, returned to the city last Friday.

Since then, city officials say, he visited a city park, had a meal at a restaurant, visited a Brooklyn bowling alley, took at least three subway trains and went for a 3-mile (4.8-km) run.

Very low risk any one else catching it?

The others could have spread it around already too and we just don't know it yet. Like that nurse on a plane and what about the walk through airport, a sneeze in a taxi, who knows.

Not only is he a doctor but he is a doctor that has worked with Ebola, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that not only does he know about the dangers, but that he also isn't stupid. Very low risk of anyone catching it? Yes, because he obviously didn't have any symptoms. You really are a panic merchant aren't you? Are you the guy that used to walk around Chiang Mai with a gas mask on, by any chance?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Doctors without Borders/Medecins Sans Fronteires (MSF)

[Tokay]

Looks like they may have a case in Phuket. Well, he's dead now but he came from Nigeria and died of mysterious causes, body was badly decomposed after just 3 days. All medical personal and police on the scene have been told to keep tabs of their health for the next 21 days. Though, probably nothing has been told to his neighbors and there is no tracking here of where he may have went while he was ill before his death. I'm curious if they will actually admit if he died of ebola or not. That would be a catastrophic blow to what is left of tourism. Though, on second thought, I'm guessing they wouldn't admit it even if that is what killed it. Thailand going into high season with ebola... never.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

^^^^any sources or social media ??

[Jingthing]

^^^^any sources or social media ??

Rumor mill ... start your engines!

[Tokay]

^^^^any sources or social media ??

Yes, a few. I don't think we're allowed to post links from them though. Check the Thai PBS site for a death of unknown causes. For whatever reason (*cough* military controlled media *cough*) this story isn't getting much traction on the big sites yet. Just smaller ones and social.

[Tokay]

^^^^any sources or social media ??

Rumor mill ... start your engines!

And I quote, "But the fact that the dead man came from Nigeria where an outbreak of Ebola has been taking place has health officials from the communicable diseases control office in Phuket to be on the alert and taken precautions."

Also... "Reporters, rescue workers and people at the condominium who were in close contact with the man and who were close to his body have been told to observe themselves if they develop fever within 21 days and to try to avoid contact with the other people."

They are taking precautions, and rightfully so. They also state his body was badly decomposed, as he had been dead 3 days (they say). Bodies don't badly decompose after only 3 days. There are 5 stages to decomposition, and badly decomposing after 3 days doesn't fit into how it works. Unless of course, you have ebola. I'm not saying he died from ebola, but coming from Nigeria and badly decomposing after only 3 days, should put the fear of God into everyone down there who was near his body until the tests return a clean result.

[Jingthing]

That's interesting. If people came into contact with him while he was symptomatic, it sounds to me that would be a weak reaction for his contacts. Shouldn't they be isolated? Can you supply a link about Ebola dead decomposing super quickly? Never heard of that.

[Tokay]

That's interesting. If people came into contact with him while he was symptomatic, it sounds to me that would be a weak reaction for his contacts. Shouldn't they be isolated? Can you supply a link about Ebola dead decomposing super quickly? Never heard of that.

Will send links in PM. Don't think I can post them here.

[Chicog]

Do you mean you can't post this link here?

A man believed to be a Briton who arrived in Phuket on October 7 from Nigeria via Dubai was found dead from an unknown causes at his luxurious condominium room on Patong beach in Phuket on Thursday.

Patong hospital director Dr Sirichai Silpa-archa and Krathu district police said they were yet to confirm whether the dead man was Mr Clark Martin John Roberts, a Briton, or not although the room where the body was found three days after his death belong to Mr Roberts.

But the fact that the dead man came from Nigeria where an outbreak of Ebola has been taking place has health officials from the communicable diseases control office in Phuket to be on the alert and taken precautions.

Reporters, rescue workers and people at the condominium who were in close contact with the man and who were close to his body have been told to observe themselves if they develop fever within 21 days and to try to avoid contact with the other people.

Police said that Mr Roberts fainted on Patong beach on October 15 and was rushed to Patong hospital where he was diagnosed of having heart problem.

The body found in Mr Roberts’ room was badly decomposed as he was thought to have died three days ago.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/mans-death-unknown-cause-sparks-concern-among-health-officials-phuket/

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

http://www.thephuketnews.com/puzzle-over-corpse-found-in-phuket-condo-unit-49306.php

This one has a photo and somewhat different story.

The question is who is the body ?

and why the heck haven't they tested it yet and announced a negative?

Edited October 25, 2014 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[mccw]

Do not panic

Rather - be prepared

Just a little bit could save your lives.

Up to u.

The media saying "it's not infectious" "very low risk"; so low risk that health workers in full protective gear are still catching it. So how risk you think it is to catch it from say getting sneezed on with zero protective gear?

It may not be as easy to catch as the flu; but it still looks plenty virulent enough to kill a whole load of people unfortunately.

(I was not; nor did I see any one wearing a full blown gas mask in town. I do see many Asians wearing face masks about places- not sure if that's a habit left over from the bird flu worries or if it's more about air quality or allergies or something)

Dr. Craig Spencer, an emergency doctor who was working with Doctors Without Borders in Ebola-stricken Guinea earlier this month, returned to the city last Friday.

Since then, city officials say, he visited a city park, had a meal at a restaurant, visited a Brooklyn bowling alley, took at least three subway trains and went for a 3-mile (4.8-km) run.

Very low risk any one else catching it?

The others could have spread it around already too and we just don't know it yet. Like that nurse on a plane and what about the walk through airport, a sneeze in a taxi, who knows.

Not only is he a doctor but he is a doctor that has worked with Ebola, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that not only does he know about the dangers, but that he also isn't stupid. Very low risk of anyone catching it? Yes, because he obviously didn't have any symptoms. You really are a panic merchant aren't you? Are you the guy that used to walk around Chiang Mai with a gas mask on, by any chance?

[Ulysses G.]

Are you the guy that used to walk around Chiang Mai with a gas mask on, by any chance?

That was probably Crazy Tony. He usually was dressed in army fatigues with a ZZ Top style beard.

[Cheesekraft]

ebola is extremely infectious, however it is not very contagious. It takes an extremely small amount of the virus (which is present in huge quantities when the person is symptomatic) to cause an infection, however, it only passes through direct contact. Its kind of the opposite of HIV, where even if you have sex unprotected with someone who is HIV positive, you are around .001 - 1% to catch the virus, whereas if you had unprotected sex with a person suffering from ebola, your odds would not fare well. HIV is extremely contagious because the persons carrying it can spread it throughout their lives, sometimes even unaware they have it, but it is not highly infectious, at least this is my understanding of it. The current strain of ebola (Zaire) has shown some propensity to be a bit more contagious than other strains, and theres some experts saying it can be spread through aerosol methods, like when someone flushes a toilet some particles are released into the air, or, more obviously, someone coughs and expels saliva, blood, mucus, they can travel short distances, and if you are unlucky enough to have them contact a permeable part of your body you are likely to absorb a few virons.

That said, best to avoid people who are coughing up black blood for the time being. I like the idea of buying a couple months of food and water just in case as well, and a 3M P95 mask (~200 baht), lots of hand sanitizer to use liberally, and some basic supplies. Its not likely to be as bad as Africa in Thailand, but then again, Thailand is not the most sanitary of places. If there is an outbreak, you don't want to be out getting oil massages in the area.

Do not panic
Rather - be prepared
Just a little bit could save your lives.

Up to u.

The media saying "it's not infectious" "very low risk"; so low risk that health workers in full protective gear are still catching it. So how risk you think it is to catch it from say getting sneezed on with zero protective gear?

It may not be as easy to catch as the flu; but it still looks plenty virulent enough to kill a whole load of people unfortunately.

(I was not; nor did I see any one wearing a full blown gas mask in town. I do see many Asians wearing face masks about places- not sure if that's a habit left over from the bird flu worries or if it's more about air quality or allergies or something)

Dr. Craig Spencer, an emergency doctor who was working with Doctors Without Borders in Ebola-stricken Guinea earlier this month, returned to the city last Friday.
Since then, city officials say, he visited a city park, had a meal at a restaurant, visited a Brooklyn bowling alley, took at least three subway trains and went for a 3-mile (4.8-km) run.

Very low risk any one else catching it?
The others could have spread it around already too and we just don't know it yet. Like that nurse on a plane and what about the walk through airport, a sneeze in a taxi, who knows.

Not only is he a doctor but he is a doctor that has worked with Ebola, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that not only does he know about the dangers, but that he also isn't stupid. Very low risk of anyone catching it? Yes, because he obviously didn't have any symptoms. You really are a panic merchant aren't you? Are you the guy that used to walk around Chiang Mai with a gas mask on, by any chance?

[mccw]

Would you leave chiang Mai if Ebola got here?

I would stay in my house until it had blown over.

Keep the kids out of school at the first sign of it of course.

Have enough supplies not to leave the house. One wouldn't want to be going down Rimping / tesco if there's a full on outbreak.

Don't just leave peppering to if it arrives- coz that when everybody else would be out after the same stuff. Maybe too late to avoid potential infection also.

The same supplies would be very useful in case of other senarios; such as a mutated bird Flu or mass flooding interrupting supply lines; a prolonged electricity failure or oil crises. Economic crises. Etc etc.

I wonder how many people live day to day taking cash out of the ATM; how would eat with out access to that cash? If there was a prolonged power outage for example.

[mccw]

If Ebola had reached chiang Mai then no where to run left really I expect; and if there were the process of running/ through air ports or public places would be very dangerous/ risk of infection. Best to stay put and avoid the public completely until it was bought under control.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

What do we know based on the news story about Mr. Robert?

He collapsed and was taken the hospital and they diagnosed him with a heart problem and released.

http://www.macleans.ca/society/health/ebola-what-you-need-to-know-ii/

"Ebola is sneaky. It attacks immune cells, repressing the body’s ability to fight it off, and weakens the blood vessels, leading to internal and external bleeding. The causes of death vary from person to person. Some are simply overwhelmed by the virus and the immune response from their bodies. Others seem to die of heart attacks or respiratory distress. Hiccups are a death knell in the Ebola patient; a warning that the diaphragm is quitting. "

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Here is another good article

Maybe he had a record of heart disease

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/771032-puzzle-over-corpse-found-in-phuket-condo-unit/page-2

[chiang mai]

Perhaps he just died, that happens sometimes, shock and horror I know but true nevertheless!

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

It's certainly a possibility but the first Texas guy who died was looked at also and discharged.

Anyone have any theories of the very decomposed characterization of the corpse?

How long does a post mortem test take in BKK?

Has to be some pressure to not associate ebola with Phuket right before the critical tourist high season.

I am sure they are hoping for the best but are they preparing for the worst?

[Chicog]

It's certainly a possibility but the first Texas guy who died was looked at also and discharged.

Anyone have any theories of the very decomposed characterization of the corpse?

How long does a post mortem test take in BKK?

Has to be some pressure to not associate ebola with Phuket right before the critical tourist high season.

I am sure they are hoping for the best but are they preparing for the worst?

Do you think they'll admit it if it is Ebola?

Or just cross their fingers and hope for the baht best?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Maybe behind the scenes they are taking it really seriously.

If your a struggling African nation without a lot of tourism then no real downside of asking for immediate help.

It's somewhat unusual here because raising the flag of alarm would be a death blow to local industry and anger many unsavory and intimidating interests.

Kind of an all or nothing approach

or the proverbial

stuck between a rock and a hard place

Edited October 25, 2014 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

from the other thread test results are due tomorrow.

Let's keep our fingers crossed

BANGKOK, Oct 25 -- Laboratory tests on a Nigerian national who died in a room in the southern resort province of Phuket earlier this week are expected to be known this Sunday, said Dr Narong Sahametapat, permanent secretary of the Public Health Ministry.

Dr Narong said the Nigerian national traveled from Lagos and arrived in Phuket on October 7.

On October 15, the tourist fainted while walking on a beach and was sent to a hospital for treatment.

Following diagnosis, doctors at the hospital found that the patient previously suffered from heart disease while the Ebola virus was not found during the examination.

The patient was treated and allowed to return to his apartment.

Police found the tourist died in the room on Thursday and asked the Public Health Ministry to help determine the cause of death.

Dr Narong said since the victim had travelled from Nigeria, and although the United Nations World Health Organisation announced on October 20 that the country was free from Ebola, doctors at the hospital decided to conduct a complete diagnosis whether this person contracted the deadly disease.

It is expected that the results would be known this Sunday, he said.

Meanwhile, Dr Sopon Mekthon director-general of the Disease Control Department, said the body of the Nigerian man is being kept at a hospital under the Public Health Ministry while some 25 persons who had contact with the victim while providing treatment would be monitored closely for three weeks as required by medical standards.

So far 2,415 persons suspected of possibly contracting Ebola and arrived in the kingdom have been closely monitored by medical personnel, said Dr Sopon. But so far no one was found to have contracted the disease. (MCOT online news)

-- TNA 2014-10-25

[Konini]

Maybe behind the scenes they are taking it really seriously.

If your a struggling African nation without a lot of tourism then no real downside of asking for immediate help.

It's somewhat unusual here because raising the flag of alarm would be a death blow to local industry and anger many unsavory and intimidating interests.

Kind of an all or nothing approach

or the proverbial

stuck between a rock and a hard place

You have a fair point there. I really hope that it's just a co-incidence, him being Nigerian. More than likely is, but I could see it being a huge problem if the E word were to be widely circulated in the same sentence as any optional, leisure hotspot. Very easy to find another beach with no E's mentioned.

[LivinginKata]

You have a fair point there. I really hope that it's just a co-incidence, him being Nigerian. More than likely is, but I could see it being a huge problem if the E word were to be widely circulated in the same sentence as any optional, leisure hotspot. Very easy to find another beach with no E's mentioned.

I am following this Patong story very closely, being a Phuket resident.

The stories in various news outlets have been all over the place.

First it was thought to be Sam an Indian national.

Then it was thought to be a Nigerian national.

Now it seems to be confirmed as Martin John Roberts Clark. Nationality ???

I don't know what to think other than the Phuket newspapers have very poor reporters.