Murders on Koh Tao: UK, Myanmar 'can observe'

[templedog]

Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

con·spir·a·cy

kənˈspirəsē/

noun

1. a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.

   "a conspiracy to destroy the government"

   synonyms: plot, scheme, plan, machination, ploy, trick, ruse, subterfuge;

   informalracket

   "a conspiracy to manipulate the results"

   • the action of plotting or conspiring.

     "they were cleared of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice"

     synonyms: plotting, collusion, intrigue, connivance, machination, collaboration;

     treason

     "conspiracy to commit murder"

     con·spir·a·cy the·o·ry

     noun

     1. a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event.

[BestBitterPhuket]

Could the UK do a "reverse" DNA test, testing siblings or parents of the accused and then compare that to possible DNA evidence at hand? Would that work?

[MJP]

Could the UK do a "reverse" DNA test, testing siblings or parents of the accused and then compare that to possible DNA evidence at hand? Would that work?

Good idea. But can the defence use the result?

[BestBitterPhuket]

Politics always rules.

Ignoring the circumstances of this case, if Thailand request or allow the British and/or Myanmar government to actually carry out an investigation, with their own tests it sets a precedent. Every foreigner charged with anything would cry fit up and ask for an independent foreign investigations. So would victims or their relatives dissatisfied with progress or results of investigations.

No country will ever allow the authority of its law enforcement to be put in that position.

Britain and Myanmar can observe only. That is, in political terms, a major concession. Will they have to sign non disclosure agreements?

Mark Kent is correct to seek a meeting regarding the behavior of the media. But, the police also should be looking at gagging those officers who fueled the media with all sorts of comments.

Thailand's judicial and law enforcement needs reform but it must come internally. No country will allow another country to determine this.

Unfortunately political expediency does cater for justice.

You are absolutely right, but Prayuth should use this as an opportunity to make heads roll in the police and not support them. The majority of Thais don't trust the police and by taking the police side, Prayuth is effectively cutting of his own popular support. This is a huge mistake on his part. The only thing that would help him regain lost support, is to make massive reforms in the police ASAP. Real reforms. Not just musical chairs. Edited October 15, 2014 by BestBitterPhuket

[templedog]

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Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

How do you come to that conclusion? TIT, I very much doubt the lawyer has any right to have more DNA tests run.

You are kidding right? You don't think the defense team is allowed to put on a defense or question evidence?

They without a doubt can submit their own test results to counter prosecution claims just as they can submit evidence to show confession were got illegally. Neither of which I believe will happen as I am fairly certain they will please guilty and show as much remorse as possible to escape the death penalty and have a chance to be able to see freedom again.

Well, there certainly won't be a trial by jury as Thailand has no such procedure, it is all up to the judge...and we know judges can easily be manipulated, whether politically or with bribes.

Edited October 15, 2014 by templedog

[american12bthai]

Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

i take it you never ever had a thai lawyer before.

[JohnThailandJohn]

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Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

How do you come to that conclusion? TIT, I very much doubt the lawyer has any right to have more DNA tests run.

You are kidding right? You don't think the defense team is allowed to put on a defense or question evidence?

They without a doubt can submit their own test results to counter prosecution claims just as they can submit evidence to show confession were got illegally. Neither of which I believe will happen as I am fairly certain they will please guilty and show as much remorse as possible to escape the death penalty and have a chance to be able to see freedom again.

Well, there certainly won't be a trial by jury as Thailand has no such procedure, it is all up to the judge...and we know judges can easily be manipulated, whether politically or with bribes.

Actually it will be judges and you are way off base if you believe there is a likely hood of a conviction in a case like this unless guilt is clear .... but what is likely is they are just going to be deciding a sentence since it is almost certain these two will plead guilty.

[casindonet]

I'm starting to lose interest in all this farce.....heck, guess that is part of RTP & the government plan is anyway.....drag & drag & drag the whole drama until everyone gets tired of it then sweep it under the rug.

[catweazle]

Super shallow blabla and basically nothing will change. They will have a stroll along the beach and do some superficial small talk, then it wil be sitting in a circle, in a nice comfy air-conditioned hotel lobby with some Tapas and cocktails, doing some more superficial blabla until everything continues as it did from the very start - downhill

Was I euphoric before, does this news article proof to me (and anyone else who can read between the lines) that the whole probe is nothing but a cheap media stunt to calm down emotions before the two Burmese midgets will take the fall for the mafia kids on Koh F#cK

Unless there is a complete independent investigation where the corrupt RTP will be ordered to "stay behind and just observe", the real murders will never be caught and proscecuted. The absurdity continues...

Edited October 15, 2014 by catweazle

[dieseldave1951]

but they RTP know who it is THAT'S the point

Super shallow blabla and basically nothing will change. They will have a stroll along the beach and do some superficial small talk, then it wil be sitting in a circle, in a nice comfy air-conditioned hotel lobby with some Tapas and cocktails, doing some more superficial blabla until everything continues as it did from the very start - downhill

Was I euphoric before, does this news article proof to me (and anyone else who can read between the lines) that the whole probe is nothing but a cheap media stunt to calm down emotions before the two Burmese midgets will take the fall for the mafia kids on Koh F#cK

Unless there is a complete independent investigation where the corrupt RTP will be ordered to "stay behind and just observe", the real murders will never be caught and proscecuted. The absurdity continues...

[slipperylobster]

Perhaps the UK will one day boast of the size, and nature, of balls ...as which they possess.

When that day comes, it will be I, who shall ring the bell.

Although this is a "small" start, ball growth has not yet met full potential.

Hope to see you in the Ballpark.

[sabye]

It seems to me that the British who now have Hannah's body for some time should have done their own DNA testing for any semen found inside of her. They should then be able to check it against the DNA of the Myanmar suspects and that should tell us exactly where they stand.

[thaiguzzi]

Sign,it may help!

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/8427684?recruiter=24195962&utm_source=share_update&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=facebook_link&fb_action_ids=10152739224405926&fb_action_types=og.shares

Done. Fwd to some mates, some of them signed on as well.

[ajarnmarc]

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3 hrs is a long meeting, interesting.

Not really so long, when translation is involved...

That's assuming everything that was said,

needed to be translated.

If they were able to speak English to the foreigners,

then yes this would be a very long time for the BIB to concentrate on how to communicate.

[jacky54]

Lieland not Thailand, it's becoming embarrassing telling people i live here

[Rancid]

Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

Anyone that has spent enough time in Thailand knows exactly what is probably going down here. There are no conspiracy theories, just standard operating practice when involving the local constabulary and well connected persons. Scapegoats are found, preferably Burmese, convicted and then disappear, justice is done. Not that Thailand is the only country that has different laws for the rich, look at all the Banksters walking around free.

[Carrerakiss]

This is good news. Now British observers can examine first hand the DNA evidence and the circumstances surrounding the confessions. Can't wait to hear their report.

We will never hear or see their report. The best we will get is one of the following:

1. From the material made available to us, we have no reason to dispute the findings of the RTP.

2. From the material made available to us, we have reason to believe that further investigation may be required in order to fully establish all facts surrounding the case.

It'll be dry as a bone. There certainly won't be any, the RTP should have done this, should have done that, cocked this up, cocked that up, fabricated evidence etc etc.

Mores the pity.

But of course, while the RTP may think they are being clever in holding stuff back and laying a smoke screen, the British police will see through most of it and I can imagine that their private report will be a damning indictment of a botched investigation, and that's irrespective of whether the Myanmar guys are guilty or not.

What good that then is to the British government, I don't know. The Saudis followed through with some pretty serious repercussions when their nationals suffered, but the British have let some previous incidents slide quite badly.

We will see, assuming that the British police do actually arrive. The Thai government! including the PM, have a habit of saying one thing, doing another and then saying something else the next day. Pretty much nothing on this case has been or is clear, and the only way to know for sure is when British police boots hit Thai soil.

[Number 3]

An offer to visit the crime scene is lame and proves nothing. The scene is a beach area which I doubt has been guarded until now, there are photos of people wandering all over it and there's the small matter of the tide.

BBC World Television is reporting the PM declining British assistance as the evidence is ' strong '. It's also reported there's criticism of how the matter has handled but we know that's wrong as the PM has said so.

Kent now is the time to come strong out of the box. New meeting fresh dialogue please come out strong and restore faith in us all. Myanmar can do it so can Britannia.

[stephen terry]

If I may, a few words of advice to the British observers when they arrive at the scene.

1)Do not ask why cctv from the relevant bars have dissapeared. Nor ask why some tapes have been edited and have critical minutes "missing"

2)Do not ask whether police had checked mobile phone records from the morning of the murder.1am-5am Sairee beach. Koh Tao.

3)Do not ask certain local politicos why they said their son was on the island, and then changed story.

4)Do not ask if the above clan have a long record of hushed up sexcrimes and assaults. Do not ask if they were charged for employing illegal migrants, nor ask if they were charged as regards the drugs discovered in their premises a week after the murders.

5)Do not question why a serving policeman was trying to hang a potential witness.

6)Do not ask why the person mentioned in 5 is still on duty, wandering around with his firearm thinking he's cock of the rock.

7)Do not research the many many other murders and rapes/assaults that have occurred in this area.

8)Do not ask why the forensic/ballistic evidence does not correlate with the re-enactment, at all, in any shape or form.

If you start asking Q's such as these, there is a grave danger you will actually find. Motive. Evidence. The perps. This will not be suitable, nobody wants to see the Gen and Somyot lose face.

Whatever the outstanding questions that will never be answered, the RTP's case rests on DNA evidence linking the suspects to bodily fluids found on the female victim. Until that is independently verified, or not, the case will proceed to trial, the suspects will be found guilty, and they will be sentenced whatever they plead.

Nothing you, me, or the kitchen sink can do to change this reality. Once it is all over, there is no way that the authorities will sanction re-opening the case. QED.

[BangkokHank]

Aside from all of the other glaring inconsistencies that make me doubt that these Burmese guys are the actual murderers, there is one other thing that particularly baffles me about this case: If they really had committed the murders, would these guys have just hung around on the island, waiting to be caught? They had WEEKS before they became suspects in which to flee. They could have EASILY disappeared into some remote village in Burma, never to be heard from again. Yet they didn't. Now contrast THEIR behavior with that of the person who actually DID flee . . .

[TheCruncher]

So they get offered a Google earth link of the crime site, and that's it?

[JohnThailandJohn]

Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

Anyone that has spent enough time in Thailand knows exactly what is probably going down here. There are no conspiracy theories, just standard operating practice when involving the local constabulary and well connected persons. Scapegoats are found, preferably Burmese, convicted and then disappear, justice is done. Not that Thailand is the only country that has different laws for the rich, look at all the Banksters walking around free.

Agree 100% that the rich often get a different from of justice but in this case there is just overwhelming evidence against this guy and no reasonable reason to believe somebody else committed the crime especially the kid who was in Bangkok at the time of the murders.

Just because police don't share all the details doesn't mean what you don't know should be used to form a conspiracy. While you have people here who have wanted get people to send money to these suspects, you have another thread running now about the Train Killer talking about how they want to see blood... another case where DNA and confession and were conflicting reports were in the press and police made mistakes and a friend turned on the guilty party.

The difference here is a couple things ... police initially made a stupid comment about it being a foreigner and even worse saying something along the lines a Thai couldn't do this. My guess is the cop who said this had some info about the whole blonde hair thing at the scene and decided to use that info to not only form a conclusion but then to add the whole idiotic it couldn't be a Thai comment. Not only did this outrage foreigners but also smelled of a cover-up to pin this on a foreigner. Then they rightly interrogated the UK friend and saw him initially as a suspect ... further upsetting people.

Then of course it did turn out to be foreigners which seemed to confirm in some people's mind it was a cover up but what REALLY got the whole conspiracy thing going to the point of people not letting it go was the whole phone thing that all turned out to be BS. Then the conspiracy theories just got stupider because people couldn't get off that bandwagon as their mind was already set.

Of course the police have to take blame because there is a reason so many are angry and distrustful towards them. But where I can forgive them is that this is not a first world nation of well paid and organized officers who are experienced in keeping their mouth shut when it comes to releasing info. Any tidbits they released combined with translation and reporting issues just became fodder for conspiracy folks.

At some point though people have to realize, it looks like it did turn out to be foreigners in this case and they they likely are going to be pleading guilty just like the train killer.

[jaidam]

Aside from all of the other glaring inconsistencies that make me doubt that these Burmese guys are the actual murderers, there is one other thing that particularly baffles me about this case: If they really had committed the murders, would these guys have just hung around on the island, waiting to be caught? They had WEEKS before they became suspects in which to flee. They could have EASILY disappeared into some remote village in Burma, never to be heard from again. Yet they didn't. Now contrast THEIR behavior with that of the person who actually DID flee . . .

Indeed, and that they were photographed(or at least one of them was) being led to the DNA test soon after the murder, smiling faces, without a care in the world. Contrast to another set of people, threatening, escaping, lying, wiping cctv etc. What a crock of clarts.

[A1Str8]

No. Don't observe. Interfere coz apparently they are not able to do it by themselves.

[heyexile]

The BBC just announced that Britain's offer for help has been rejected.

This trial is going to be railroaded through regardless.

Yes, other press reporting very different statements. See links.

AH tweeted: Prayut downplays Brit concerns, rebukes offer of help.

PM is reported saying "don`t forget what is our business should remain ours." ie MYOB.

Also reported saying I consider the case to be reliable.

PM reported to deny UK or Myanmar have concerns, that they are happy with investigation.

Also reported as denying Thai charge d`affairs was summoned to FO in London.

http://twitter.com/Atomicalandy

http://asiancorrespondent.com/127396

Edited October 15, 2014 by heyexile

[jesimps]

Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

You ever wondered why you're the only one in step?

Edited October 15, 2014 by jesimps

[gemini81]

Aside from all of the other glaring inconsistencies that make me doubt that these Burmese guys are the actual murderers, there is one other thing that particularly baffles me about this case: If they really had committed the murders, would these guys have just hung around on the island, waiting to be caught? They had WEEKS before they became suspects in which to flee. They could have EASILY disappeared into some remote village in Burma, never to be heard from again. Yet they didn't. Now contrast THEIR behavior with that of the person who actually DID flee . . .

Confess to anything when you're interrogated brutally... now who on earth has earned themselves such a reputation, and think of all the things they've covered up and done time & time again with nearly every single case we read & hear about; particularly protecting those with influence.

Edited October 15, 2014 by gemini81

[Mooner]

Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

Anyone that has spent enough time in Thailand knows exactly what is probably going down here. There are no conspiracy theories, just standard operating practice when involving the local constabulary and well connected persons. Scapegoats are found, preferably Burmese, convicted and then disappear, justice is done. Not that Thailand is the only country that has different laws for the rich, look at all the Banksters walking around free.

Agree 100% that the rich often get a different from of justice but in this case there is just overwhelming evidence against this guy and no reasonable reason to believe somebody else committed the crime especially the kid who was in Bangkok at the time of the murders.

Just because police don't share all the details doesn't mean what you don't know should be used to form a conspiracy. While you have people here who have wanted get people to send money to these suspects, you have another thread running now about the Train Killer talking about how they want to see blood... another case where DNA and confession and were conflicting reports were in the press and police made mistakes and a friend turned on the guilty party.

The difference here is a couple things ... police initially made a stupid comment about it being a foreigner and even worse saying something along the lines a Thai couldn't do this. My guess is the cop who said this had some info about the whole blonde hair thing at the scene and decided to use that info to not only form a conclusion but then to add the whole idiotic it couldn't be a Thai comment. Not only did this outrage foreigners but also smelled of a cover-up to pin this on a foreigner. Then they rightly interrogated the UK friend and saw him initially as a suspect ... further upsetting people.

Then of course it did turn out to be foreigners which seemed to confirm in some people's mind it was a cover up but what REALLY got the whole conspiracy thing going to the point of people not letting it go was the whole phone thing that all turned out to be BS. Then the conspiracy theories just got stupider because people couldn't get off that bandwagon as their mind was already set.

Of course the police have to take blame because there is a reason so many are angry and distrustful towards them. But where I can forgive them is that this is not a first world nation of well paid and organized officers who are experienced in keeping their mouth shut when it comes to releasing info. Any tidbits they released combined with translation and reporting issues just became fodder for conspiracy folks.

At some point though people have to realize, it looks like it did turn out to be foreigners in this case and they they likely are going to be pleading guilty just like the train killer.

The kid in Bangkok as you put it had a alibi from a girl, his cousin I believe that she was drinking the night of the murder with him in Bangkok. Shame she didn't consult her Facebook before making the statement as it clearly showed her in Pattaya with her boyfriend.

Also this CCTV evidence from his University that turned out to be his apartment block. Not saying he is guilty but why the lies to cover his ass?

[JohnThailandJohn]

Sadly it was a great opportunity for Thailand to improve and restore the worlds faith in the RTP. It is no surprise that this action has been given. I would trust the BBC more than the Nation on its reporting and hopefully they will get it right soon.. Anyone with a small amount of intelligence can see there are inconsistences and lots of questions unanswered with these murders. This case will not go away and with the world and social media following it closely, this could end up to hurt Thailand more than ever.

It is a shame that this opportunity was wasted. Same old crap of saving face instead of having transparency. Nothing seems to change and at times just gets worse which is frustrating when you want to see improvement for all. There was me thinking that the country was developing. Only in my dreams.

In what world do police layout the case for the public before it goes to court? The problem here is police releasing some information and people speculating on the rest. They should have just kept their mouth shut from the get go as other more modern forces do and not have been releasing info of who was the current suspect or about bits of possible evidence and making idiotic personal opinion statements based on limited information.

Anyone with a small amount of knowledge about crimes know that it is rare for there not be unanswered questions even after a verdict and even if the suspect pleaded guilty and confessed. Confessions are usually self serving and the confessor often minimizes what they did by saying things like they were drunk or on drugs and yes I killed the child but didn't rape her or no, I didn't have sex with the person after killing them or yes I hit them with the blunt edge of the hoe but didn't intend to kill them.

They have confessed to police, lawyer and their embassy advocates. The DNA matches. They were in and around the scene at the time of the crime as verified by video and witnesses. Their friend will testify against them including being given the phone of one of the victim's to get rid of and destroy. If there is doubt then that is what a trial is for and why the y have lawyers who again, can have DNA results put in question and retested.

There is absolutely no reason and it would be against all international protocol given the circumstances of this case to have the police ask the UK to get involved. If anything, they'd ask the FBI for help if they needed it. But the police have built their case and have the evidence they need, they don't need help. If the defense teams needs help then they can certainly ask the UK, if they are willing, to help provide them resources to defend the suspects. But almost surely none of this is going to happen because the two will almost surely plead guilty to what they did.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Why is it conspiracy theorists can't grasp the fact that these two admitted murdering rapists have lawyers who can run whatever DNA tests they want including getting the UK involved in the defense.

Anyone that has spent enough time in Thailand knows exactly what is probably going down here. There are no conspiracy theories, just standard operating practice when involving the local constabulary and well connected persons. Scapegoats are found, preferably Burmese, convicted and then disappear, justice is done. Not that Thailand is the only country that has different laws for the rich, look at all the Banksters walking around free.

Agree 100% that the rich often get a different from of justice but in this case there is just overwhelming evidence against this guy and no reasonable reason to believe somebody else committed the crime especially the kid who was in Bangkok at the time of the murders.

Just because police don't share all the details doesn't mean what you don't know should be used to form a conspiracy. While you have people here who have wanted get people to send money to these suspects, you have another thread running now about the Train Killer talking about how they want to see blood... another case where DNA and confession and were conflicting reports were in the press and police made mistakes and a friend turned on the guilty party.

The difference here is a couple things ... police initially made a stupid comment about it being a foreigner and even worse saying something along the lines a Thai couldn't do this. My guess is the cop who said this had some info about the whole blonde hair thing at the scene and decided to use that info to not only form a conclusion but then to add the whole idiotic it couldn't be a Thai comment. Not only did this outrage foreigners but also smelled of a cover-up to pin this on a foreigner. Then they rightly interrogated the UK friend and saw him initially as a suspect ... further upsetting people.

Then of course it did turn out to be foreigners which seemed to confirm in some people's mind it was a cover up but what REALLY got the whole conspiracy thing going to the point of people not letting it go was the whole phone thing that all turned out to be BS. Then the conspiracy theories just got stupider because people couldn't get off that bandwagon as their mind was already set.

Of course the police have to take blame because there is a reason so many are angry and distrustful towards them. But where I can forgive them is that this is not a first world nation of well paid and organized officers who are experienced in keeping their mouth shut when it comes to releasing info. Any tidbits they released combined with translation and reporting issues just became fodder for conspiracy folks.

At some point though people have to realize, it looks like it did turn out to be foreigners in this case and they they likely are going to be pleading guilty just like the train killer.

The kid in Bangkok as you put it had a alibi from a girl, his cousin I believe that she was drinking the night of the murder with him in Bangkok. Shame she didn't consult her Facebook before making the statement as it clearly showed her in Pattaya with her boyfriend.

Also this CCTV evidence from his University that turned out to be his apartment block. Not saying he is guilty but why the lies to cover his ass?

No cover up - just you wanting to believe their was one. He was took a test at the university. I never heard anything about a girlfriend and if what you say is true am sure it is just more nonesense like the phone theory and talking of one girl and a picture of another. There were students at the university including whoever provided the rest and time stamped video of him at his apartment and probably other cooperating facts and witnesses that police didn't release all the details about and they shouldn't because he is not a suspect. The suspects whose DNA matches and who admitted to the crime are now in jail.