A question for Thai language experts

[rocketron57]

My girlfriends grand daughter who is 4 years old is called แพร can anyone tell me how this translates to English. Her school teacher is telling her it's "play" which is obviously wrong but is it "Pear" or "Phere" or maybe Phare" or is there no direct translation? Any help appreciated - Thanks

[eeeya]

could be the fruit.. not unusual for thai name Pear

[Scousebkk]

Kid in my school is called that... He translates it as, Pae.

[samran]

Prae?

[thailiketoo]

Phrae it's a fabric like silk

[metisdead]

Moved to the Thai language forum.

[jarrcbb]

Here is someone famous who writes it Phae http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B9%81%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%A3_%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%A1%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B5%E0%B9%88 ... Now that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way to write it..so many things are written in English in a way that guarantees people will mispronounce them. If you want to hear how it's pronounced you can listen to it here http://www.thai-language.com/id/134241

[kevvy]

Is it a peach ???

[rgs2001uk]

Phrae it's a fabric like silk

We are now into whats called clusters in Thai language, I agree with this.

Just did a google search for "แพร", very pleasing on the eye, yes the nickname Pear no doubt.

[Mole]

แพร does indeed mean a silk like fabric.

While the fruit "pear" would have been written as แพร์.

Correct pronunciation of แพร is "phrae" while แพร์ is "phae".

Although both would usually been pronounced the same as "phae" because Thais tend not to pronounce the "r".

If your girlfriend spells the Thai as แพร, then her intended meaning is the fabric, while if it's spelled as แพร์, it's the fruit. So you should confirm the exact Thai spelling with her.

[KhunBENQ]

Peach is very unlikely, as in this case Thais seem to have an own word for it (not a transcription from English).

Also as already written, the spelling does not fit for "peach".

And yes the Google image search brings up a nice top-models

In this dictionary of Thai first names, there are some entries starting with แพร and they about "silk" or "shining":

http://thaigoodname.com/23/%E0%B8%8A%E0%B8%B7%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%84%E0%B8%A5-%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%A9%E0%B8%A3-%E0%B8%9E.htm

[KhunBENQ]

too late to edit...

the three entries are:

แพรพิไล แปลว่า เเพรงาม (beautiful silk)
แพรวรุ่ง แปลว่า สว่างไสวแพรวพราว
แพรววนิต แปลว่า งามน่ารัก

The latter two are unlikely, because they refer to แพรว which sounds different (praeo = sparkling, shining).

[rocketron57]

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I'm pretty sure now that it should be "Phrae" that's the spelling we will be using anyway.

All I have to do now is convince her teacher that "Play" is wrong!

[Thongkorn]

Phrae it's a fabric like silk

Correct it is draped over the shoulder, you see them on Traditional Thai dancers with a scarf type cloth draped over their shoulder.

[jspill]

There are no set rules for transliteration so anything goes but girls in my experience would write it either Prae or Pear 99% of the time in their whatsapp / facebook names or wherever. Check social media

A 'Prae' on Twitter - https://twitter.com/Prae28509031

For แพรว you'll normally see 'Praew' - https://www.facebook.com/Praewpeundek?fref=ts (look at the URL)

and for แพรวา, 'Praewa' - https://www.facebook.com/pages/%E0%B9%81%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%B2-Praewa-Sugar-eyes/416451365096396 (name on page)

Good luck finding 'Play'

[Sattphalat]

Hi

ร - in the end of a word is pronounced n.

Have I learnt.

So I wold pronounced I like

เเพร - p(e)en

[Richard W]

'At the end' means in phonetic order. The problem is that given only a spelling แพร, one doesn't know whether the phonetic order is /ph/, /ae/, /n/ (= [M]phaen) or /ph/, (/r/), ae (= standard [M]phrae or substandard [M]phae). The posts above provided evidence for the latter order. A source of confusion is that English 'pear' would be transliterated แพร์ and pronounced [M]phae.

[SlyAnimal]

Hi

ร - in the end of a word is pronounced n.

Have I learnt.

So I wold pronounced I like

เเพร - p(e)en

At the end it's an "n" sound, however, ร can also be connected to the first letter, to make sounds like Br, Pr etc. I can't remember specifically which letters it applies to, but there's a list of the ones it applies to and the ones it doesn't (It usually just makes sense though, as they're generally the same places we might put an R in in English). The same thing applies to ล as well.

Although I have to admit, the way all of you guys are spelling แพร looks completely different to how I'd spell it. But then, that's why phonetic spelling is often not a good way to represent Thai, as our English sounds vary depending on our nationality and background etc.

Since to me, แพร would be said in exactly the same way as "Prayer", as in The Lord's Prayer (Although I'm from NZ, so our pronunciation might be a little bit different). And so I'd probably spell it "Prayer" or "Prair".

By comparison, I'd spell "Prae" or "Phrae" as "เพร".

But as I mentioned, everyone's phonetic sounds are a little different depending on their accents etc. To me, แ is "Sala Air" and so for phonetics I put "_air", เ is "Sala Ae" and so I think of it as "ae", so put "_ae" when writing phonetics.

[KhunBENQ]

At the end it's an "n" sound, however, ร can also be connected to the first letter, to make sounds like Br, Pr etc.

Correct and this applys for แพร. ("consonant cluster" พร).

Sorry, but "paen" or the like is simply wrong.

Care for some overkill ?

Then try to read and understand these reference articles (Inside a Thai Syllable: Part I and Part II):

(I don't claim to have)

http://www.thai-language.com/id/830221

http://www.thai-language.com/id/830222

I like to cite these articles for those "Thai is easy" callers

[Richard W]

Although I have to admit, the way all of you guys are spelling แพร looks completely different to how I'd spell it. But then, that's why phonetic spelling is often not a good way to represent Thai, as our English sounds vary depending on our nationality and background etc.

When the Thai language forum was new, we agreed on a method of transcribing Thai that is at least as accurate as Thai orthography. We took the Royal Thai General System (the dominant system on road signs in Thailand) and fixed its faults while still just using case-insensitive ASCII characters:

• Show tone (by letter M, L, F, H, R in square brackets before the syllable)
• Show length (by L or S in those square brackets, or doubling the first or only letter in a vowel symbol).
  • i and o after a different vowel do not count as part of the vowel symbol
  • 1-letter vowel symbols are short by default
  • 2-letter (or longer) vowel symbols are long by default - works well for 'ia', 'uea', 'ua', 'ae', 'oe' and 'aw'/'or' and fairly well for 'ue'
• Distinguish vowel sound represented, when long, by the letter อ as 'aw' or 'or' (preference to evolve)
• Distinguish consonant sound of จ cho chan as 'j'
• Allow both 'k' and 'g' for the sound of ก ko kai.

This system is anchored in the system that people in Thailand will find around them, and does not depend on nationality and background of the writer or reader. (The inability to pronounce or recognise the sounds does, though.) I think its biggest problem for use here is that too many people don't distinguish tones, and are reluctant to admit their ignorance. People's uncertainty as to vowel length may also have been a problem. Allowing '?' for unknown tone would have been useful, but no-one tried such a bold admission of ignorance.

[SlyAnimal]

So what does this system use to represent เ and แ?

E.g. แม่ & รถเมส์ I'd write as Mair [F] and Rot[H] Mae[M]

Is there a thread with the discussion or summary? As if it's a pretty well agreed upon method, I might sticky it (or get someone to summarize it and then sticky it).

[rgs2001uk]

So what does this system use to represent เ and แ?

E.g. แม่ & รถเมส์ I'd write as Mair [F] and Rot[H] Mae[M]

Is there a thread with the discussion or summary? As if it's a pretty well agreed upon method, I might sticky it (or get someone to summarize it and then sticky it).

The best answer I can give, is learn to read Thai asap, long and short vowels.

As for clusters, it took me a long time to come to terms with the pronounciation of countries such as Portugal, or in Thai sans clusters,

โปรตุเกส

recognition, recognition and memory.

The majority of Thais will know,

โปรตุเกส isnt a regular Thai word and will have been taught by rote to differentiate.

I hate it when trying to read English that has been written in Thai, engineering for example, where does the yor yak come from?

[rgs2001uk]

Maybe its we farang who have been misprouncing it all along.

Tokyo, โตเกียว.

I admit to being lost when I look at the arrivals/departures board at the airport.

The more I look at the above, maybe the Thais have it right. sorry not Japanese know nothing of the language.

To โต

kyo เกียว

[SlyAnimal]

Yeah kinda like Laos, where apparently the French spelt it (along with Vientiane), the way French people say it as opposed to how Asian people say it.

[Richard W]

So what does this system use to represent เ and แ?

E.g. แม่ & รถเมส์ I'd write as Mair [F] and Rot[H] Mae[M]

The sound of แม่ is written [F]mae (cf. RTGS Mae Rim for แม่ริม), and the sound of รถเมล์ is written [H]rot[M]mee. Contrast เพชร, whose sound is written [H]phet. The sound of แข็ง is written [RS]khaeng.

Is there a thread with the discussion or summary? As if it's a pretty well agreed upon method, I might sticky it (or get someone to summarize it and then sticky it).

The prompting request for a system arose in topic This Old House (in a post by Simon43) and the basics were quickly thrashed out in Transcribing Thai and used later in the originating thread. The preference for words like ห้อง was eventually selected as [RS]hawng.

If you have access to a list of formerly pinned posts, it may be worth checking the topics pinned by RDN.

[Richard W]

Maybe its we farang who have been misprouncing it all along.

Tokyo, โตเกียว.

I admit to being lost when I look at the arrivals/departures board at the airport.

The more I look at the above, maybe the Thais have it right. sorry not Japanese know nothing of the language.

To โต

kyo เกียว

The vowels in Thai are a representation of the English pronunciation, not the Japanese pronunciation. The English spelling is an accurate representation of the Japanese pronunciation, but the English tendency to pronounce the 'y' as a vowel rather than as a consonant does not give an accurate reflection of the Japanese pronunciation.

The majority of Thais will know, โปรตุเกส isnt a regular Thai word and will have been taught by rote to differentiate.

What do you mean by 'not regular'? Do you just mean that the rules for reading Thai do not resolve the ambiguity?

I hate it when trying to read English that has been written in Thai, engineering for example, where does the yor yak come from?

The short answer is that it comes from the 'r'. In detail: English engineer is pronounced /endʒɪˈnɪə/, so engineering is /endʒɪˈnɪərɪŋ/. This is naturally adopted by Thai as [M]en[M]ji[M]nia[F]ring, whence the spelling เอ็นจิเนียริ่ง. (A stressed penultimate in English leads to falling tone on the final syllable in Thai.)

[SlyAnimal]

So if แม is Mae and เม is Mee, what is มี? (And likewise มู) (How would you spell the nickname เอ, as Ee? I'd usually spell it as "Ae")

It seems like an interesting system. When you are writing the above words in this system, do you think that they actually sound like the phonetic you're writing? Or is it more that you're sticking to the system (And thus, if people understand the system, then they'll understand even with a few words which don't fit).

As I'm curious about whether it's because I'm not American/British (And thus not from the major accent groups), as to why the phonetics you're describing aren't that close to how I'd say either of these words. I assume the RTSG system was based on American accents, as the Americans were heavily involved with Thailand in the past. Although I'm from NZ, so my accent is a bit of a minority in the major scheme of things, so I'm pretty understanding of the fact these are probably correct for others, but simply not for me (Which is why I'm particularly grateful that I learnt to read Thai early on lol).

But yeah, is there more regarding this transcription thread? It seems like just a few posts from you regarding it, with a dissenters, along with references to a newsgroup having used it? (From your initial post, I had thought there'd be a huge thread on TV discussing it?).

[Richard W]

So if แม is Mae and เม is Mee, what is มี? (And likewise มู) (How would you spell the nickname เอ, as Ee? I'd usually spell it as "Ae")

มี is mi in the RTGS, so we get [M]mii.

มู is mu in the RTGS, so we get [M]muu.

เอ is e in the RTGS, so we get [M]ee, or if you think capitalisation rules should be followed, [M]Ee. (The scheme is designed to be liberal.)

Note that มิ is mi in the RTGS, so we get [H]mi.

It seems like an interesting system. When you are writing the above words in this system, do you think that they actually sound like the phonetic you're writing? Or is it more that you're sticking to the system (And thus, if people understand the system, then they'll understand even with a few words which don't fit).

As I'm curious about whether it's because I'm not American/British (And thus not from the major accent groups), as to why the phonetics you're describing aren't that close to how I'd say either of these words. I assume the RTSG system was based on American accents, as the Americans were heavily involved with Thailand in the past. Although I'm from NZ, so my accent is a bit of a minority in the major scheme of things, so I'm pretty understanding of the fact these are probably correct for others, but simply not for me (Which is why I'm particularly grateful that I learnt to read Thai early on lol).

The application of vowel symbols for RTGS comes from the tradition of European scholarship. The vowel symbols represent the quality nominally of Italian but really of typical 5-vowel systems such as Spanish, or older Maori for that matter. Vowel length is an additional feature. Like tone, it is simply ignored in the RTGS. The idea back in the '30s was that if one wanted such details, one should use the precise system, a bold and failed attempt to combine sound and spelling. The space above the vowel symbols was reserved for showing length (or rather, shortness) and tone.

As Thai has 9 vowel qualities, not 5, 4 extra symbols were needed for the RTGS. Original they were systematic - the two missing low vowels were provided by adding a mark below, in the same scholarly tradition that one will find in discussions in the same period of Middle English - the probable intention was 'ę' and 'ǫ'. The unrounded back vowels were provided by adding a horn to 'o' and 'u' and yielding 'ơ' and 'ưʹ as is done in Vietnamese. The first revision substituted æ (as traditionally used in IPA for English) and (as in French and used by Cdès) for 'ę' and 'ǫ'. This system languished as untypable until the ligatures were decomposed and the diacritic marks were dropped in 1968. Note that the vowel symbols were not based on any English accent.

But yeah, is there more regarding this transcription thread? It seems like just a few posts from you regarding it, with a dissenters, along with references to a newsgroup having used it? (From your initial post, I had thought there'd be a huge thread on TV discussing it?).

Most of the ideas had been raised in other threads. Some of the minor details of the scheme were later dealt with in the course of the other threads, for example the use of 'aw' as a vowel symbol, which I didn't like because it runs the risk of being misinterpreted as the vowel เ-า. (I liked 'or' because the 'r' couldn't possibly be intended to be read as a final consonant symbol.) I don't recall a thread formally setting it out. It was a matter of using it and fixing it if problems arose. Sabaijai was leading the forum at that time. Note that the scheme I am talking about is not the one used in soc.culture.thai; the scheme I am talking about was devised on this forum.

The dissent was opposition to transcription, and are therefore irrelevant.

[SlyAnimal]

Ok, just seems weird how far apart some of the transliteration is from how I'd write them lol

e.g. From the ones I've asked you about:

แม = Mae, but I'd write Mair

เม = Mee, but I'd write Mae

มี = Mii, but I'd write Mee

มู = Muu, I'd write Mu or Muu aswell

มอง = Mawng, but I'd write Mong

This makes this all quite confusing for me lol. Makes me glad that I don't have to worry about phonetics/transliteration anymore, unless I'm posting here for someone who can't read Thai lol (And if they do, I'll hope that they pronounce things the same way I do lol, since this method seems too foreign for me to learn).

[rgs2001uk]

Maybe its we farang who have been misprouncing it all along.

Tokyo, โตเกียว.

I admit to being lost when I look at the arrivals/departures board at the airport.

The more I look at the above, maybe the Thais have it right. sorry not Japanese know nothing of the language.

To โต

kyo เกียว

The vowels in Thai are a representation of the English pronunciation, not the Japanese pronunciation. The English spelling is an accurate representation of the Japanese pronunciation, but the English tendency to pronounce the 'y' as a vowel rather than as a consonant does not give an accurate reflection of the Japanese pronunciation.

The majority of Thais will know, โปรตุเกส isnt a regular Thai word and will have been taught by rote to differentiate.

What do you mean by 'not regular'? Do you just mean that the rules for reading Thai do not resolve the ambiguity?

I hate it when trying to read English that has been written in Thai, engineering for example, where does the yor yak come from?

The short answer is that it comes from the 'r'. In detail: English engineer is pronounced /endʒɪˈnɪə/, so engineering is /endʒɪˈnɪərɪŋ/. This is naturally adopted by Thai as [M]en[M]ji[M]nia[F]ring, whence the spelling เอ็นจิเนียริ่ง. (A stressed penultimate in English leads to falling tone on the final syllable in Thai.)

Sorry I apoligise, I aint a teacher of the lanhuage neither am I linguist, I will be the first to admit, I lack the vocabulary to express myself in these terms.

Pity the poor student of the language who is taught all about clusters and how to read, he is presented with one of the most heard terms, even if he doesnt know it.

โปรด ทราบ

now compare with, โปรตุเกส

What I mean by non regular Thai word is, its a Thai spelling of a farang word.

As for Farangised spellings of Thai words, pity the poor tourist who tells a taxi driver to take him to สนามบิน สุวรรณภูมิ, English written as per the Thai writing, not as it is pronounced.

Yes I am aware of the difference of written and spoken Thai.

Over on another thread someone asks about the merits of having a farang teacher of the language, when I was at school all I was told was, exception, but it could never be explained as to why (rote learning?)

Its a moot point anyway, even if the teacher could explain, my Thai at the time was such I probably couldnt understand anyway.

BTW, I agree with the points raised by SA.

กิน, ปิด, the exact same vowel, one being short the other long, yet if I read the vowel in Thai its the exact same, difference is in how its spoken.

No wonder it does my head in, one step forward, two steps back.

Thanx for taking the time to explain.