Retirement visa affidavit from US consulate no longer valid?

[Chizod]

I was told yesterday, by an agency that handled my retirement visa application last year, that that the affidavit for proof of income from the US consulate is no longer sufficient as proof of income.

Apparently, immigration now requires that proof of income, whether it is pension, money in the bank, or a combination of both, must be provided directly to immigration when applying for my retirement visa extension.An affidavit from the US consulate is no longer enough.

I had not read anywhere about this prior to yesterday. Anyone heard about this?

My retirement visa needs to be renewed in December. Even if I had the funds to meet the financial requirements (which I don't), the required seeding period of having to have money in the bank for three months prior to application is not available to me.

Anyone have any recommendations as to how I can get my extension?

I own my own condo. As an asset it would cover the financial requirements but unfortunately the THB 800,000 is income based.

Ed visa is obviously an option but, for that, I would have to leave the country to apply.

If I leave the country (with re-entry permit) and return prior to the expiration of my visa, how much extra time would be stamped in my passport while I try to sort out the situation? Three months? A year

If anyone knows an agency that could help, please contact me.

[ubonjoe]

There has been no change in the rules that a income of 65k baht is not accepted. Some offices may want back up to your income affidavit to prove your income.

Perhaps best to go to immigration to do your extension yourself.

[mgjackson69]

I just received another Extension of Stay (based on marriage) using the income affidavit from the US Embassy. I have never been asked to show anything else re: income...this was my 7th extension.

[Chizod]

Ubonjoe, thanks for your reply. I do not have either the funds or sufficient pension, or a combination, to meet the requirements of 800,000. Last year the US consulate stamped an affidavit without requiring proof. From what I'm told, this is no longer accepted as "proof". I was told that immigration must now see all documentation showing financial resources.

[ubonjoe]

Ubonjoe, thanks for your reply. I do not have either the funds or sufficient pension, or a combination, to meet the requirements of 800,000. Last year the US consulate stamped an affidavit without requiring proof. From what I'm told, this is no longer accepted as "proof". I was told that immigration must now see all documentation showing financial resources.

They don't want to see 800k baht in the bank. They will just want to see some type of income stream such as regular transfers into the country to prove you have money to live on.

[Chizod]

mgjackson69. I as informed by the agency that this application of the "rule" came into effect in August and that there was longer an exemption for US citizens.

Where did you get your extension and how long ago? I am living in Chiang Mai

[Chizod]

I don't have an income stream that matches the 65,000 requirement.

One of the questions I asked, if I leave the country and re-enter before the expiration date, how much time will I receive on my passport. This is my first year on the retirement visa

[ubonjoe]

As I said there have been no rule changes. There was a new immigration order that came out on August 29th but there were no changes made to the requirements to get extensions for retirement.

There have been no reports of Chiang Mai immigration changing their local rules.

Perhaps your agent is working on getting you to pay him to "loan" you the money for a substantial fee.

[Jingthing]

Let's break this down.

You say you don't have the income STREAM going into Thailand.

OK, so I'd like to ask some more questions.

Do you have the ACTUAL INCOME that you were planning to state to the U.S. embassy, or not?

If so, then what is this real income from?

It seems to me if this income is real and it could have qualified you based on an embassy letter, there should be a way to show evidence of this income (as opposed to the stream which you have not been importing).

So in that case, it might help to state the source of your income and we can suggests ideas to prove it.

You do realize there has never been a rule (and is not now) that people using income methods must import the stated amount into Thailand?

Money shown in Thai banks for qualification with bank method (or combo) of course has already been imported but no need to import the full amount annually.

I agree there probably isn't any real rule change as you were told.

Generally, applicants using an income letter would be wise to bring in supporting evidence of their income when going in to immigration JUST IN CASE they are skeptical of your claim. This advice more so for applicants with letters from embassies that they KNOW do not require proof for the letter, like Americans.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

As I said there have been no rule changes. There was a new immigration order that came out on August 29th but there were no changes made to the requirements to get extensions for retirement.

There have been no reports of Chiang Mai immigration changing their local rules.

Perhaps your agent is working on getting you to pay him to "loan" you the money for a substantial fee.

I think the OP should consider doing extensions himself, assuming he can really qualify under the normal rules.

[Chizod]

I thank you all for your advice. I will go ahead with getting the affidavit from the US consulate, then do the extension myself and see if the affidavit alone is acceptable.

Anyone who has additional information please contact me.

[Jingthing]

I thank you all for your advice. I will go ahead with getting the affidavit from the US consulate, then do the extension myself and see if the affidavit alone is acceptable.

Anyone who has additional information please contact me.

Not a bad idea.

Following up from my questions. if the income claimed in the letter is based on actual income, then do consider bringing along some kind of evidence of that JUST IN CASE it is asked of you at immigration. For example, if it is a pension, surely you can produce some kind of document from the pension paying authority?

If the income is not real, well ... best of luck!

[pmarlin]

As I said there have been no rule changes. There was a new immigration order that came out on August 29th but there were no changes made to the requirements to get extensions for retirement.

There have been no reports of Chiang Mai immigration changing their local rules.

Perhaps your agent is working on getting you to pay him to "loan" you the money for a substantial fee.

I think the OP should consider doing extensions himself, assuming he can really qualify under the normal rules.

He already stated that he doesn't and he has already admitted to using a false income letter in the past. Maybe the agency knows this and didn't want to be caught up with a problem if questioned.

[Jingthing]

As I said there have been no rule changes. There was a new immigration order that came out on August 29th but there were no changes made to the requirements to get extensions for retirement.

There have been no reports of Chiang Mai immigration changing their local rules.

Perhaps your agent is working on getting you to pay him to "loan" you the money for a substantial fee.

I think the OP should consider doing extensions himself, assuming he can really qualify under the normal rules.

He already stated that he doesn't and he has already admitted to using a false income letter in the past. Maybe the agency knows this and didn't want to be caught up with a problem if questioned.

In my reading he did not state that explicitly so I don't agree that he did. In my reading he said he couldn't show the full income stream coming into Thailand. That's not the same thing as openly admitting claiming income falsely in the past or intention to do so in future. It is the OP'S right to say as much or as little as he chooses. There has never been any immigration requirement that all the annual income claimed (whether 65K per month in full or part of that using the combo method) actually is required to be imported into Thailand. There have sometimes at some offices been enforcement "crackdowns" where it was threatened or even enforced that immigration needed to see at least a FEW MONTHS of stated income being imported, but those were just temporary localized enforcement glitches and certainly did not reflect any national rule change to require annual import of all income claimed.

It is always useful to keep in mind that whatever the actual immigration laws or expectations about current enforcement changes (which do tend to be fluid and vary locally based on office) that immigration officers do have every legal right to ask further questions, demand additional evidence for anything claimed in your application. Not saying they often or usually do, but that remains a right they will always have. Some applicants choose to be prepared for such questions, and some don't.

Cheers.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Jingthing

[pmarlin]

As I said there have been no rule changes. There was a new immigration order that came out on August 29th but there were no changes made to the requirements to get extensions for retirement.

There have been no reports of Chiang Mai immigration changing their local rules.

Perhaps your agent is working on getting you to pay him to "loan" you the money for a substantial fee.

I think the OP should consider doing extensions himself, assuming he can really qualify under the normal rules.

He already stated that he doesn't and he has already admitted to using a false income letter in the past. Maybe the agency knows this and didn't want to be caught up with a problem if questioned.

In my reading he did not state that explicitly so I don't agree that he did. In my reading he said he couldn't show the full income stream coming into Thailand. That's not the same thing as openly admitting claiming income falsely in the past or intention to do so in future. It is the OP'S right to say as much or as little as he chooses. There has never been any immigration requirement that all the annual income claimed (whether 65K per month in full or part of that using the combo method) actually is required to be imported into Thailand. Cheers.

read reply 11 above. After he already stated he didn;t have the income.

[Jingthing]

read reply 11 above. After he already stated he didn;t have the income.

Not my reading of it that it was said explicitly. In any case, whether income stated is fraudulent or not, if you can't produce evidence of it if asked, then I don't see much difference in the situation. An honest applicant might be able at least say, I can come in later and show you some evidence though. That is if the evidence he could get would be acceptable. If they were actually asking to show some months of full stated income transfers into Thailand then of course you can't do that retroactively.

The guy isn't on trial here... he asked for info, I think he got some, and now the next step is up to him.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Jingthing

[mgjackson69]

mgjackson69. I as informed by the agency that this application of the "rule" came into effect in August and that there was longer an exemption for US citizens.

Where did you get your extension and how long ago? I am living in Chiang Mai

I do my extensions at Korat Immigration (Dan Kwian).

My extension was up on 17 September. I made my first visit on 25 August and my follow-up on 17 October.

[Chizod]

I do have income, legitimate pension paid onto a debit card by the US government. My point was that the amount of the pension does not meet the 65,000 per month requirement. Combined with what I have in the bank, it doesn't come to the 800,000. The income affidavit issued by the US consulate last year does not require proof, or documentation, as some of you will know.

The agency I used last year is the same one that said the US affidavit was no longer sufficient this year, that I would be asked by immigration to provide proof.

[JLCrab]

I recently got a retirement extension using a US Consular Income affidavit. I was not asked for proof of income at Thai Immigration but I had to sign a form printed statement in front of the Thai IMM officer that I received the baht equivalent every month as noted in the affidavit.

As far as swearing to a US federal official that one has an income that one does not have, I'm not touching that one.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Perhaps your discussion with the visa agency is getting two different things confused:

1. For whatever portion of income you claim as monthly income, Immigration normally will accept just the Consulate income letter, and as stated above, there's been no policy change for that. Although, Immigration always has the right to ask for additional documentation.

2. For whatever portion you claim as Thai bank deposits, Immigration will want to see a letter from your Thai bank, your bank book, and possibly an ATM receipt from the day you apply, if your bank letter is dated from any earlier day.

That kind of application for a retirement extension is called the "combo method" -- using a combination of monthly income and Thai bank deposits to meet Thai Immigration's financial requirement.

One change that Immigration has begun enforcing as of August -- at least in BKK -- is now requiring that bank deposits used in a combo method application must have been on deposit for 3 months prior to your retirement extension application. In the past, combo method applications had no "seasoning" requirement for their Thai bank deposits.

[Jingthing]

I do have income, legitimate pension paid onto a debit card by the US government. My point was that the amount of the pension does not meet the 65,000 per month requirement. Combined with what I have in the bank, it doesn't come to the 800,000. The income affidavit issued by the US consulate last year does not require proof, or documentation, as some of you will know.

The agency I used last year is the same one that said the US affidavit was no longer sufficient this year, that I would be asked by immigration to provide proof.

Great!

Glad to hear you've actually got the income.

You sound legitimately qualified for a COMBO METHOD application (mix of income letter and Thai banked money).

Really, you should attempt to do this application yourself at immigration.

You don't need any agency.

As far as seasoning needed for the bank account portion, that is another question you need to determine the rules at your local immigration office.

Technically, no seasoning should be need if using the COMBO method, but as above report, different offices, different enforcement peculiarities.

Assuming no problem with the seasoning, I suggest bringing along some documentation about your pension income printed from the web from your pension authority, bank account statements of pension income transfer even if into accounts that are abroad. Just in case.

If your office DOES actually require seasoning for the COMBO method ... then you're out of luck and will need to start over with a new O visa.

BTW, another semi-paranoid proactive you could do now in case there is still time before your extension application date is start to make actual monthly transfers into Thailand of the stated income amount. This is not required under law (to TRANSFER in anything annually or monthly) but as you're obviously worried, showing that would be supportive of your claims in case of being challenged.

Cheers.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Jingthing

[pmarlin]

I do have income, legitimate pension paid onto a debit card by the US government. My point was that the amount of the pension does not meet the 65,000 per month requirement. Combined with what I have in the bank, it doesn't come to the 800,000. The income affidavit issued by the US consulate last year does not require proof, or documentation, as some of you will know.

The agency I used last year is the same one that said the US affidavit was no longer sufficient this year, that I would be asked by immigration to provide proof.

Great!

Glad to hear you've actually got the income.

You sound legitimately qualified for a COMBO METHOD application (mix of income letter and Thai banked money).

Really, you should attempt to do this application yourself at immigration.

You don't need any agency.

As far as seasoning needed for the bank account portion, that is another question you need to determine the rules at your local immigration office.

Technically, no seasoning should be need if using the COMBO method, but as above report, different offices, different enforcement peculiarities.

Assuming no problem with the seasoning, I suggest bringing along some documentation about your pension income printed from the web from your pension authority, bank account statements of pension income transfer even if into accounts that are abroad. Just in case.

If your office DOES actually require seasoning for the COMBO method ... then you're out of luck and will need to start over with a new O visa.

BTW, another semi-paranoid proactive you could do now in case there is still time before your extension application date is start to make actual monthly transfers into Thailand of the stated income amount. This is not required under law (to TRANSFER in anything annually or monthly) but as you're obviously worried, showing that would be supportive of your claims in case of being challenged.

Cheers.

Read what he states above again, while he says he has income he also says it is not enough to reach the 65,000 baht number. He earlier said he didn't have enough to meet the combo method to reach 800,000 baht. According to his own writing here he is not qualified to extend for the purpose of retirement. That is the only answer he needs and not encouragement to commit fraud by swearing to an false official document.

[Jingthing]

Thanks for the correction. Indeed he is not qualified. I was too lazy in reading his post. My apologies.

Please note that I have never encouraged anyone to make a fraudulent application

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited October 25, 2014 by Jingthing

[NancyL]

In the past Chiang Mai hasn't required seasoning when using the combo method, but this could be changing.

Believe it or not, there are honest visa agents in Chiang Mai and they could indeed be preparing the applicant for the distinct possibility that he may be asked to show proof beyond the Consulate Letter of his income. Normally an annual pension statement, tax return, something like that would work -- as stated, one doesn't actually have to bring the funds into Thailand. It would seem from his own posts that the OP doesn't actually have sufficient income AND funds in the bank to meet the financial requirements. The visa agent doesn't want to be "caught out" in representing a client making a fraudulent application, if that client is asked to provide further proof. This could destroy that agent's credibility with Immigration for future work.

Chiang Mai Immigration does ask U.S. citizens to provide further proof from time-to-time, especially if the applicant has come to their attention during the past year. Pleading poverty and inability to pay the bill at a hospital is one way they can come to the attention of Immigration for further questioning during their next visa extension. If they truly have the funds for a retirement visa, then why do they have problems paying a hospital bill?

Edited October 25, 2014 by NancyL

[Jingthing]

The OP if seasoning isn't an issue can legally borrow the needed amount to make up the diff in a combo application. No rule against borrowing per se believe it or not.

This way he can make a legal application.

State the true amount in income letter

Gather evidence to prove that to use if challenged

Borrow extra amount needed for bank. Agent can likely assist with that.

Nothing illegal in that. Maybe a little dodgy but doesn't violate any written rules

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited October 25, 2014 by Jingthing

[NancyL]

Jingthing, I think there is at least one visa agent in Chiang Mai who will not suggest "Borrow extra amount needed for bank. Agent can likely assist with that." I know others will and they make a pretty penny in the process, too. Perhaps the OP actually is working with a legit visa agent who wants to stay in business long-term, even after what will probably be an inevitable crack-down on visa agents who encourage clients to misrepresent income on their Income Letters and visa agents to make "dodgy" loans to their clients.

Jingthing, surely you've noticed there's a new sheriff in town?

Edited October 25, 2014 by NancyL

[rocket3rider]

Hi there

Is anyone able to post an example of the wording for the affidavit from embassy attesting to income?

Thanks in advance

R3R

[Tywais]

Hi there

Is anyone able to post an example of the wording for the affidavit from embassy attesting to income?

Thanks in advance

R3R

Here is the form from the Embassy site in .pdf format - http://photos.state.gov/libraries/thailand/231771/acs/income_affidavit_template.pdf

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Hi there

Is anyone able to post an example of the wording for the affidavit from embassy attesting to income?

Thanks in advance

R3R

[Jingthing]

Jingthing, I think there is at least one visa agent in Chiang Mai who will not suggest "Borrow extra amount needed for bank. Agent can likely assist with that." I know others will and they make a pretty penny in the process, too. Perhaps the OP actually is working with a legit visa agent who wants to stay in business long-term, even after what will probably be an inevitable crack-down on visa agents who encourage clients to misrepresent income on their Income Letters and visa agents to make "dodgy" loans to their clients.

Jingthing, surely you've noticed there's a new sheriff in town?

We're talking about entirely different things. He could get a loan from a friend for the shortage. Even better if wired for in from abroad.

An example of something not legit. 800k account all borrowed and presented as seasoned when it is not.

I am not talking morality here. Rather following the rules and you can't show me there is a rule against borrowing per se because there isn't. Of course seasoning rules when in effect clearly are designed to be a disincentive for borrowing but an outright prohibition they are not.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited October 25, 2014 by Jingthing