British authorities at Koh Tao crime scene

[joebrown]

The relentless posting in defence of the police by JTJ, jdinasia and Baerboxer is extraordinary to say the least. So much that they cannot simply be dismissed as trolls. Why on earth would these people spend so much time defending the RTP case, when practically everyone else who has objectively considered this believes the case is corrupt. Not one person (farang or Thai) I have spoken to believes the Burmese boys carried out the crime. I can only assume these guys have a vested interest in the outcome.

Then you assume wrong, as in your assumption that what most posters post must become fact.

I want to see justice, real justice. I want the despicable low live scum that did this identified, arrested, prosecuted and when found guilty to receive the harshest punishment under law.

I doubt that will happen, given all the mishandling and contradictions that have occurred.

However, a trial by social media, with conspiracy theorists entering more 'facts", deciding who must have done it, decide on the way it was done, whose being covering up etc etc is not only stupid and silly is downright dangerous.

How do you think the Salem witch trials started and resulted in many innocent deaths? Some on here are trolling for sure, usually winding up those who are supporters of the "we know who did it, CSI LA told us brigade".

None of this rhetoric will influence the British Police. They are too professional. I eagerly await their report, which may divulge facts that are currently unknown, such as comments from the victims' friends about what happened that night.

I really hope real justice is served in this case.

I completely agree that trial by media is very dangerous. However people posting their FACTS on here create discussion and often these FACTS are shown to be not so. They do keep people looking at the case and the professionals will be able to filter these in order for real facts to be proven. Many FACTS have been ignored or overlooked from the beginning of this investigation. These need to be looked at again to find the killers.

It's quite strange that a major suspect can be cleared and therefore not undergo DNA testing with what appears to be a flimsy alibi. I believe they should take a closer look even if it is just to clear him finally and clearly.

Rumors are not "FACTS". (even in all CAPS )

You state it "appears to be a flimsy alibi " but that is based on what? Speculation and rumors bandied about, while the truth is that nobody but those who investigated know what information cleared him.

You're absolutely right, "nobody but those who investigated know what information cleared him". It's equally fair to say 'nobody knows whether 100m baht or 120m baht was paid under the table to clear him"! Bearing in mind the RTP recently introduced a scheme to reward RTP officers who refused bribes, it suggests to me the need for further investigation/verification of Nomsod's whereabouts and activities during the 3 days before, at the time of and 3 days after the murders. I'm aware the bribe/reward scheme was subsequently withdrawn, but it goes to show the RTP's awareness, extent and knowledge of corruption within their ranks.

[slygeeza]

I think we do know what information cleared him because he presented the evidence to the public himself, if there is any better evidence that he had that he gave to the police Im sure he would have released that to the public as well, theres no reason for him to want or need to hide it, unless, of course, that evidence consisted of a large amount of baht

Critical thinking would suggest that there could be many reasons a person would not reveal details of his life for conspiracy theorists to gossip about online.

maybe critical thinking isnt his strong point because the fact is he did reveal details of his life for conspiracy theorists to gossip about online

Edited October 28, 2014 by slygeeza

[boomerangutang]

Some of that is unknown but they say that they have DNA matches to 2 people on the cigarette and the semen.

I don't see how the cigg but can have any bearing on the case. First off, it was found far from the scene. Even if it had Hannah's saliva on it (as well as someone else's) ....so what? She could have tossed a but, and someone else picked it up and took a toke. She may have even stopped for a moment to talk to the Burmese guys hanging out around a fire, playing guitar. To me, it's moot and time wasting. Instead, there are glaring potential for clues which either haven't been looked in to by RTP or have been, but discounted because it doesn't implicate the Burmese.

some glaring omissions we've either heard very little or nothing about from Thai officialdom:

>>> no recreation of bar scene that night

>>> no checks on phone records of all 'people of interest.'

>>> nothing about prior history of suspects

>>> nothing about prior history of date-rapes and bullying connected to AC bar and its regulars

>>> incomplete scrutinization of hoe

>>> nothing viable about fatal injuries to David.

>>> no official testaments from Sean or others.

[minikev]

To JD even in your words there has been some flimsy police work. What makes you so sure the alibi was checked till it could be proved fact.

I don't want to get dragged into your arguments. Generally I don't read your posts as they are so repetitive.

doesn't make any of that "FACT"...... even the last bit!

If you actually read my post 625 you would have seen that is what I am saying. You people could even make an argument with yourselves!

[jdinasia]

The relentless posting in defence of the police by JTJ, jdinasia and Baerboxer is extraordinary to say the least. So much that they cannot simply be dismissed as trolls. Why on earth would these people spend so much time defending the RTP case, when practically everyone else who has objectively considered this believes the case is corrupt. Not one person (farang or Thai) I have spoken to believes the Burmese boys carried out the crime. I can only assume these guys have a vested interest in the outcome.

Then you assume wrong, as in your assumption that what most posters post must become fact.

I want to see justice, real justice. I want the despicable low live scum that did this identified, arrested, prosecuted and when found guilty to receive the harshest punishment under law.

I doubt that will happen, given all the mishandling and contradictions that have occurred.

However, a trial by social media, with conspiracy theorists entering more 'facts", deciding who must have done it, decide on the way it was done, whose being covering up etc etc is not only stupid and silly is downright dangerous.

How do you think the Salem witch trials started and resulted in many innocent deaths? Some on here are trolling for sure, usually winding up those who are supporters of the "we know who did it, CSI LA told us brigade".

None of this rhetoric will influence the British Police. They are too professional. I eagerly await their report, which may divulge facts that are currently unknown, such as comments from the victims' friends about what happened that night.

I really hope real justice is served in this case.

I completely agree that trial by media is very dangerous. However people posting their FACTS on here create discussion and often these FACTS are shown to be not so. They do keep people looking at the case and the professionals will be able to filter these in order for real facts to be proven. Many FACTS have been ignored or overlooked from the beginning of this investigation. These need to be looked at again to find the killers.

It's quite strange that a major suspect can be cleared and therefore not undergo DNA testing with what appears to be a flimsy alibi. I believe they should take a closer look even if it is just to clear him finally and clearly.

Rumors are not "FACTS". (even in all CAPS )

You state it "appears to be a flimsy alibi " but that is based on what? Speculation and rumors bandied about, while the truth is that nobody but those who investigated know what information cleared him.

You're absolutely right, "nobody but those who investigated know what information cleared him". It's equally fair to say 'nobody knows whether 100m baht or 120m baht was paid under the table to clear him"! Bearing in mind the RTP recently introduced a scheme to reward RTP officers who refused bribes, it suggests to me the need for further investigation/verification of Nomsod's whereabouts and activities during the 3 days before, at the time of and 3 days after the murders. I'm aware the bribe/reward scheme was subsequently withdrawn, but it goes to show the RTP's awareness, extent and knowledge of corruption within their ranks.

Rumor mongering

[JacknDanny]

jdinasia, for the amount of posting you do on here, I would have thought that you could have worked out how to use the quote buttons!!!! Get it sorted, or are you just too lazy?

The reason I and I believe most people are posting on this subject matter is to ensure that the truth comes out and the right people are convicted and justice is served.

Therefore it makes it more difficult for the Thai police to simply brush this matter away. I believe social media has now made that impossible and at least there is a shred of light, particularly with the British Police now arriving.

I accept that there is a lot of rumour mongering, some of it undoubtedly false, but I believe a lot of it to be true ( my personal feelings, experience with RTP and what other Thais (connected) are coming out and saying)

But what I want to know jdinasia is this......

1) Do you genuinely have belief and confidence in the way the Thai Police conduct their business? YES/NO

2)Do you think the Thai Police have been absolutely truthful in the statements they have made so far?

3)Do you believe that there has been absolutely no cover up whatsoever by RTP in this investigation?

I dont want a rambling BS answer, or justification for your answers. Just a YES or NO from 1-3

My answers would be NO, NO and NO

[thailandchilli]

To the post one above: A good lawyer in a criminal matter can make a case either for the prosecution or the defendant. Arguing one side or another on here IMHO does not mean 'support' of anything -- just arguing the merits of either side of the case.

A good lawyer can make a case if he has good evidence, a rogue or bought lawyer can make a defense with tainted evidence.

Debating and discussing the issues are good and thats the whole purpose of these threads, but when a couple of posters constantly refer to their opposing views as nothing but conspiracy theories then this leads to conflict and the resulting hijacking of threads, hence why so many of us have now set our ignore buttons to relieve ourselves of these righteous trolls

A good lawyer uses what he/she has to the benefit of the client.

Per the late US Senator and former Harvard Professor Daniel Patrick Moynihan:

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.

I'm sure the late US Senator and former Harvard Professor Daniel Patrick Moynihan would ensure that no matter how much he worked to the benefit of his client, the evidence produced on his behalf would be gathered professionally and honestly.

[BoristheBlade]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

[jdinasia]

Jack

I am not the topic.

The quotes show up fine on my iPhone using the app. Feel free to discuss this in the forum support section.

I won't be answering questions with the "yes/no" restrictions you put on them.

[BoristheBlade]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

[jdinasia]

Jack

I am not the topic.

The quotes show up fine on my iPhone using the app. Feel free to discuss this in the forum support section.

I won't be answering questions with the "yes/no" restrictions you put on them.

[JLCrab]

To the post one above: A good lawyer in a criminal matter can make a case either for the prosecution or the defendant. Arguing one side or another on here IMHO does not mean 'support' of anything -- just arguing the merits of either side of the case.

A good lawyer can make a case if he has good evidence, a rogue or bought lawyer can make a defense with tainted evidence.

Debating and discussing the issues are good and thats the whole purpose of these threads, but when a couple of posters constantly refer to their opposing views as nothing but conspiracy theories then this leads to conflict and the resulting hijacking of threads, hence why so many of us have now set our ignore buttons to relieve ourselves of these righteous trolls

A good lawyer uses what he/she has to the benefit of the client.

Per the late US Senator and former Harvard Professor Daniel Patrick Moynihan:

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.

I'm sure the late US Senator and former Harvard Professor Daniel Patrick Moynihan would ensure that no matter how much he worked to the benefit of his client, the evidence produced on his behalf would be gathered professionally and honestly.

Professionally and honestly maybe but that does not preclude an attorney using information of which he/she is not 100% sure if it helps his client. The value of such information in a non-jury country like Thailand would be for a judge to decide.

[MobileContent]

Is there any way that those replying to the trolls/apologists could just answer them without having to quote them? It fouls the threads for those of us who have them on ignore. Thanks.

Very good point. I have JD on ignore list and a couple of others but they still show up when someone replies to them by quote.

[JacknDanny]

Jack

I am not the topic.

The quotes show up fine on my iPhone using the app. Feel free to discuss this in the forum support section.

I won't be answering questions with the "yes/no" restrictions you put on them.

So either you are trolling or trying to derail the thread. Just as I thought. Hope to meet you one day jd.

I think it is despicable what you are doing.

2 innocent kids have been murdered. Dont forget that!

[Bleacher Bum East]

To the post one above: A good lawyer in a criminal matter can make a case either for the prosecution or the defendant. Arguing one side or another on here IMHO does not mean 'support' of anything -- just arguing the merits of either side of the case.

"A good lawyer in a criminal matter can make a case either for the prosecution or the defendant."

That is absolutely correct . . . And in fact, a good prosecutor needs to be able to make the case for the defense, and a good defense attorney needs to be able to make the case for the prosecution. If a lawyer cannot see and understand the strengths and weaknesses of both sides (and there are always strengths and weaknesses on both sides) then he is not a good lawyer and will not be able to do his job properly---whether that is representing the state as prosecutor or representing the accused as a defense attorney.

"Arguing one side or another on here IMHO does not mean 'support' of anything -- just arguing the merits of either side of the case."

In theory, that should be the case. But in reality, a vast majority of those posting on both sides of the TVC debate have put on blinders and (unlike a good lawyer or independent observer) can only see one side of the case. This, among other things, is why a vast majority of the posts (although not all) are worthless and maddeningly repetitive (seriously, to both sides, how many times a day do you need to say the exact same thing on TVC? Do you really think this helps your cause?).

A good lawyer also needs to be able to separate provable fact from inference, and be able to separate reasonable inference (reasonably derived from known facts and circumstances, and which help his or her argument) from wildly speculative guesses (not derived from known facts and circumstances, or unreasonably derived, and which actually hurt his or her argument).

All of us on TVC have very few known facts to base our arguments or inferences on . . . and I mean very few.

All that being said, at the investigation stage, it is OK for investigators for the state and for the defense to follow speculative assertions to see where they lead ... but good investigators have an experienced professional sense of which speculations are worth following up on, and which are a waste of time.

Finally, a good judge will be able to see the strengths and weaknesses of both sides, determine what is fact, what is reasonable inference that should be considered, and what is speculation that should not be considered. Then a good judge will weigh all of this and decide if the prosecution has met the burden of proof.

In my opinion, there a very few good armchair lawyers, judges, investigators, or even debaters on these TVC threads (on either side), which is why those posting are confined to a handful of people shouting in an echo chamber---and why very few "outsiders" are willing to throw themselves into the mud pit of these threads. Which is a shame, because it means a lot of people with interesting and valuable opinions never even consider joining a TVC debate.

The good news is that there are very good investigators, and I hope very good lawyers, working on the case. I believe they have many known facts and circumstance to work with that TVC posters do not have, and will be able to draw professional and experienced inferences from those facts and circumstances. I believe that this is what will ultimately lead to the truth being discovered and revealed in court, one way or the other, about what happened to Hannah and David.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[jdinasia]

Jack

I am not the topic.

The quotes show up fine on my iPhone using the app. Feel free to discuss this in the forum support section.

I won't be answering questions with the "yes/no" restrictions you put on them.

So either you are trolling or trying to derail the thread. Just as I thought. Hope to meet you one day jd.

I think it is despicable what you are doing.

2 innocent kids have been murdered. Dont forget that!

HUH??

You try to make it about me. Not the conspiracy theories.

You add a veiled threat.

You ignore that I want a trial with a vigorous defense for the accused.

I attend TVF events and organize gatherings so I am certainly meetable

[JLCrab]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

Edited October 28, 2014 by JLCrab

[BoristheBlade]

got out of control to such an extent, that after gang raping the deceased, (and I don't want to go into detail what they did to the lady) she was still putting up such a fight , that, not only did they kill her, BUT, they left he without a face!!!

Bullshit

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

[CharlieH]

Post removed

Agree/debate/disagree but do not make personal comments.

[jdinasia]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

Means

Motive

Opportunity

Weapon sorted

Theft and rape for a motive

Presence sorted

[JLCrab]

got out of control to such an extent, that after gang raping the deceased, (and I don't want to go into detail what they did to the lady) she was still putting up such a fight , that, not only did they kill her, BUT, they left he without a face!!!

Bullshit

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

You asked for a contrary motive -- that is a contrary motive yours to accept or not. Really no less implausible than someone committing such a crime for being told: Sorry -- no blow job tonight for you.

Edited October 28, 2014 by JLCrab

[BoristheBlade]

You should be ashamed of yourself and your Friends

I look forward to the next TVF get together, I would love to meet you and I am sure this event will be very well attended. You have built up a large fan club. Perhaps the moderators could arrange the get together the day after the British Police publish there findings. Plenty to talk about that day

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

Means
Motive
Opportunity

Weapon sorted

Theft and rape for a motive

Presence sorted

[BoristheBlade]

Clearly it's not acceptable to the Thai courts, so that says a lot.

There is no evidence against these guys, apart from a cigarette butt, ...

So lets hang then for daring to smoke an LM on the beach at night.....Amazing Thailand Indeed.

got out of control to such an extent, that after gang raping the deceased, (and I don't want to go into detail what they did to the lady) she was still putting up such a fight , that, not only did they kill her, BUT, they left he without a face!!!

Bullshit

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

You asked for a contrary motive -- that is a contrary motive yours to accept or not. Really no less implausible than someone committing such a crime for being told: Sorry -- no blow job tonight for you.

Edited October 28, 2014 by BoristheBlade

[DarloKnight]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

Means

Motive

Opportunity

Weapon sorted

Theft and rape for a motive

Presence sorted

JD are you a retired lawyer? I know it's nothing to do with the thread but just curious due to you knowledge (not having a go either)

[jdinasia]

To the post one above: A good lawyer in a criminal matter can make a case either for the prosecution or the defendant. Arguing one side or another on here IMHO does not mean 'support' of anything -- just arguing the merits of either side of the case.

"A good lawyer in a criminal matter can make a case either for the prosecution or the defendant."

That is absolutely correct . . . And in fact, a good prosecutor needs to be able to make the case for the defense, and a good defense attorney needs to be able to make the case for the prosecution. If a lawyer cannot see and understand the strengths and weaknesses of both sides (and there are always strengths and weaknesses on both sides) then he is not a good lawyer and will not be able to do his job properly---whether that is representing the state as prosecutor or representing the accused as a defense attorney.

"Arguing one side or another on here IMHO does not mean 'support' of anything -- just arguing the merits of either side of the case."

In theory, that should be the case. But in reality, a vast majority of those posting on both sides of the TVC debate have put on blinders and (unlike a good lawyer or independent observer) can only see one side of the case. This, among other things, is why a vast majority of the posts (although not all) are worthless and maddeningly repetitive (seriously, to both sides, how many times a day do you need to say the exact same thing on TVC? Do you really think this helps your cause?).

A good lawyer also needs to be able to separate provable fact from inference, and be able to separate reasonable inference (reasonably derived from known facts and circumstances, and which help his or her argument) from wildly speculative guesses (not derived from known facts and circumstances, or unreasonably derived, and which actually hurt his or her argument).

All of us on TVC have very few known facts to base our arguments or inferences on . . . and I mean very few.

All that being said, at the investigation stage, it is OK for investigators for the state and for the defense to follow speculative assertions to see where they lead ... but good investigators have an experienced professional sense of which speculations are worth following up on, and which are a waste of time.

Finally, a good judge will be able to see the strengths and weaknesses of both sides, determine what is fact, what is reasonable inference that should be considered, and what is speculation that should not be considered. Then a good judge will weigh all of this and decide if the prosecution has met the burden of proof.

In my opinion, there a very few good armchair lawyers, judges, investigators, or even debaters on these TVC threads (on either side), which is why those posting are confined to a handful of people shouting in an echo chamber---and why very few "outsiders" are willing to throw themselves into the mud pit of these threads. Which is a shame, because it means a lot of people with interesting and valuable opinions never even consider joining a TVC debate.

The good news is that there are very good investigators, and I hope very good lawyers, working on the case. I believe they have many known facts and circumstance to work with that TVC posters do not have, and will be able to draw professional and experienced inferences from those facts and circumstances. I believe that this is what will ultimately lead to the truth being discovered and revealed in court, one way or the other, about what happened to Hannah and David.

Very few people weigh in on the side of being opposed to trial by social media.

The people that do call for exactly what you do. An actual trial with a vigorous defense for the accused, are subject to personal attacks.

The "everyone knows exactly who did it " crowd ignore the reality that their claim is untrue and amounts to a lynch mob mentality.

If people believe it is a stitch up they should want a trial at the defense' earliest convenience.

[BoristheBlade]

I would love this to come to trial, a fair and open trial, one in a civilized court....hey and even better, lets televise it....let the world see Thai justice in action.

Lets call the British Police officers to give there views....ok?

Lets get the phone records on show

Lets see the DNA evidence, tell us which lab did the tests

Lets see the autopsy report, the toxicology reports.

Lets do it, fair and open

To the post one above: A good lawyer in a criminal matter can make a case either for the prosecution or the defendant. Arguing one side or another on here IMHO does not mean 'support' of anything -- just arguing the merits of either side of the case.

"A good lawyer in a criminal matter can make a case either for the prosecution or the defendant."

That is absolutely correct . . . And in fact, a good prosecutor needs to be able to make the case for the defense, and a good defense attorney needs to be able to make the case for the prosecution. If a lawyer cannot see and understand the strengths and weaknesses of both sides (and there are always strengths and weaknesses on both sides) then he is not a good lawyer and will not be able to do his job properly---whether that is representing the state as prosecutor or representing the accused as a defense attorney.


"Arguing one side or another on here IMHO does not mean 'support' of anything -- just arguing the merits of either side of the case."

In theory, that should be the case. But in reality, a vast majority of those posting on both sides of the TVC debate have put on blinders and (unlike a good lawyer or independent observer) can only see one side of the case. This, among other things, is why a vast majority of the posts (although not all) are worthless and maddeningly repetitive (seriously, to both sides, how many times a day do you need to say the exact same thing on TVC? Do you really think this helps your cause?).

A good lawyer also needs to be able to separate provable fact from inference, and be able to separate reasonable inference (reasonably derived from known facts and circumstances, and which help his or her argument) from wildly speculative guesses (not derived from known facts and circumstances, or unreasonably derived, and which actually hurt his or her argument).

All of us on TVC have very few known facts to base our arguments or inferences on . . . and I mean very few.

All that being said, at the investigation stage, it is OK for investigators for the state and for the defense to follow speculative assertions to see where they lead ... but good investigators have an experienced professional sense of which speculations are worth following up on, and which are a waste of time.

Finally, a good judge will be able to see the strengths and weaknesses of both sides, determine what is fact, what is reasonable inference that should be considered, and what is speculation that should not be considered. Then a good judge will weigh all of this and decide if the prosecution has met the burden of proof.

In my opinion, there a very few good armchair lawyers, judges, investigators, or even debaters on these TVC threads (on either side), which is why those posting are confined to a handful of people shouting in an echo chamber---and why very few "outsiders" are willing to throw themselves into the mud pit of these threads. Which is a shame, because it means a lot of people with interesting and valuable opinions never even consider joining a TVC debate.

The good news is that there are very good investigators, and I hope very good lawyers, working on the case. I believe they have many known facts and circumstance to work with that TVC posters do not have, and will be able to draw professional and experienced inferences from those facts and circumstances. I believe that this is what will ultimately lead to the truth being discovered and revealed in court, one way or the other, about what happened to Hannah and David.

Very few people weigh in on the side of being opposed to trial by social media.

The people that do call for exactly what you do. An actual trial with a vigorous defense for the accused, are subject to personal attacks.

The "everyone knows exactly who did it " crowd ignore the reality that their claim is untrue and amounts to a lynch mob mentality.

If people believe it is a stitch up they should want a trial at the defense' earliest convenience.

[JLCrab]

So who were you at the last TVF get together?

[jdinasia]

In any murder investigation in a civilized country, the prosecution would have to produce evidence which included something very, very important....MOTIVE

Where was the motive in this case and please don't give the bullsh*t that the 2 Burmese were aroused by the actions of the victims.

Now when the toxicology reports become public knowledge, if there was evidence of a date rate drug......we begin to see a motive.

If the RTP had followed up earlier claims of Foreign female tourists rape claims on Koh Tao, maybe they would have caught the murderers before they had committed another crime.

Why has the RTP not done any mobile phone investigation ie phone records, sms records...WHY? because they know they will lead to people who are untouchable

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

Means

Motive

Opportunity

Weapon sorted

Theft and rape for a motive

Presence sorted

JD are you a retired lawyer? I know it's nothing to do with the thread but just curious due to you knowledge (not having a go either)

Neither retired nor a lawyer.

I have employed lawyers FT for businesses I have been a director for in the past. (not criminal lawyers though)

I currently work with several.

[BoristheBlade]

I did not have that pleasure, back in the motherland

So who were you at the last TVF get together?

[JLCrab]

I did not have that pleasure, back in the motherland

So who were you at the last TVF get together?

Well you only joined this Forum 2 weeks after the incident so who's to say?