Thailand to 'allow' second DNA test for British murder accused

[draftvader]

The biggest problem that Westerners have with understanding the situation, is to ever believe that there is any real interest in the law, or even justice. Like many other multi-billion dollar companies, employing thousands, where the only thing that matters is the bottom line and the people at the very top will do anything to protect their bottom line, no matter how dirty things get at the lowest levels.

Of course the really dirty jobs have to be outsourced, just like those operating using slave labour, so there can be no direct connection back to the major players, but they in turn are protected and that is why no matter how much pressure is ever applied from the West, nothing will ever really change.

Once you understand human nature, without any form of conscience, then you can understand why brutal murders will continue to go unsolved and why the slave trade is both alive and flourishing.

In my opinion, the lowest of the absolute low, are the people who try to defend this type of regime.

A brilliant summation of the whole stinking edifice - and in your first post sir (or madame). Welcome.

You are right about nothing changing with pressure from the outside. It will only change from the inside and that change is coming soon, ironically probably expedited by the coup. It may even be advanced by this case. If so perhaps it will in time bring a small measure of comfort to the victims family.

The big question is how nasty the change will be.

Tick - tock

I would say the change is underway. How many times before have we seen cases brushed under the carpet with no repercussions. For whatever reason this time people (Thai and non-Thai alike) have said "Enough's enough, explain yourselves". I really hope we get TRUE clarity on this case but I feel that the cards have been dealt and we're just waiting for the bluffs to finish before hands are shown. I really hope that the wild card is sat happily in a document in the UK and will patiently wait until it is of domestic political use (this will be within 6 months or not at all). We are just observers now but the actions of the many have certainly allowed a new player to take a hand at the table even with only a few chips.

This case, whatever the outcome, will be the case where the Thai nation got a true voice. More-so than any of the protests over the years. This one allowed them to truly become international and that is just massive. The real question is how the people with power choose to work. Will it be with or against?

[draftvader]

I'm thinking more about my statement above and I think I missed something vital. This voice from Thailand was there in support of "farang". This wasn't a Thai national but 2 young Brits and the Thai people remained outraged by the ongoing miscarriage of justice. They have stood up, at great personal risk, and pushed this. As a Brit myself I would like to say "Thank you Thailand for your support". This has been a true act of international decency and a demonstration to the nation of how to behave. As much as people are besmirching Thailand internationally I think they should remember how many people, within the bounds of martial law, have directly stood up and objected. Humbling indeed and definitely worth remembering before blanket bombing the Thai people with generalisations about behaviour.

Edited November 1, 2014 by draftvader

[phuketandsee]

The biggest problem that Westerners have with understanding the situation, is to ever believe that there is any real interest in the law, or even justice. Like many other multi-billion dollar companies, employing thousands, where the only thing that matters is the bottom line and the people at the very top will do anything to protect their bottom line, no matter how dirty things get at the lowest levels.

Of course the really dirty jobs have to be outsourced, just like those operating using slave labour, so there can be no direct connection back to the major players, but they in turn are protected and that is why no matter how much pressure is ever applied from the West, nothing will ever really change.

Once you understand human nature, without any form of conscience, then you can understand why brutal murders will continue to go unsolved and why the slave trade is both alive and flourishing.

In my opinion, the lowest of the absolute low, are the people who try to defend this type of regime.

A brilliant summation of the whole stinking edifice - and in your first post sir (or madame). Welcome.

You are right about nothing changing with pressure from the outside. It will only change from the inside and that change is coming soon, ironically probably expedited by the coup. It may even be advanced by this case. If so perhaps it will in time bring a small measure of comfort to the victims family.

The big question is how nasty the change will be.

Tick - tock

I would say the change is underway. How many times before have we seen cases brushed under the carpet with no repercussions. For whatever reason this time people (Thai and non-Thai alike) have said "Enough's enough, explain yourselves". I really hope we get TRUE clarity on this case but I feel that the cards have been dealt and we're just waiting for the bluffs to finish before hands are shown. I really hope that the wild card is sat happily in a document in the UK and will patiently wait until it is of domestic political use (this will be within 6 months or not at all). We are just observers now but the actions of the many have certainly allowed a new player to take a hand at the table even with only a few chips.

This case, whatever the outcome, will be the case where the Thai nation got a true voice. More-so than any of the protests over the years. This one allowed them to truly become international and that is just massive. The real question is how the people with power choose to work. Will it be with or against?

Probably what is different this time is social media but, as you well put, still brave of the people to stand up.

We all (well, all except the 2 you-know-whos) hope there is a wild card in the UK. After all the previous unsolved deaths and miscarriages of justice, maybe, just maybe, this time they have sufficient direct evidence to put an end to this crap. I'm convinced that's why Cameron acted.

[draftvader]

The biggest problem that Westerners have with understanding the situation, is to ever believe that there is any real interest in the law, or even justice. Like many other multi-billion dollar companies, employing thousands, where the only thing that matters is the bottom line and the people at the very top will do anything to protect their bottom line, no matter how dirty things get at the lowest levels.

Of course the really dirty jobs have to be outsourced, just like those operating using slave labour, so there can be no direct connection back to the major players, but they in turn are protected and that is why no matter how much pressure is ever applied from the West, nothing will ever really change.

Once you understand human nature, without any form of conscience, then you can understand why brutal murders will continue to go unsolved and why the slave trade is both alive and flourishing.

In my opinion, the lowest of the absolute low, are the people who try to defend this type of regime.

A brilliant summation of the whole stinking edifice - and in your first post sir (or madame). Welcome.

You are right about nothing changing with pressure from the outside. It will only change from the inside and that change is coming soon, ironically probably expedited by the coup. It may even be advanced by this case. If so perhaps it will in time bring a small measure of comfort to the victims family.

The big question is how nasty the change will be.

Tick - tock

I would say the change is underway. How many times before have we seen cases brushed under the carpet with no repercussions. For whatever reason this time people (Thai and non-Thai alike) have said "Enough's enough, explain yourselves". I really hope we get TRUE clarity on this case but I feel that the cards have been dealt and we're just waiting for the bluffs to finish before hands are shown. I really hope that the wild card is sat happily in a document in the UK and will patiently wait until it is of domestic political use (this will be within 6 months or not at all). We are just observers now but the actions of the many have certainly allowed a new player to take a hand at the table even with only a few chips.

This case, whatever the outcome, will be the case where the Thai nation got a true voice. More-so than any of the protests over the years. This one allowed them to truly become international and that is just massive. The real question is how the people with power choose to work. Will it be with or against?

Probably what is different this time is social media but, as you well put, still brave of the people to stand up.

We all (well, all except the 2 you-know-whos) hope there is a wild card in the UK. After all the previous unsolved deaths and miscarriages of justice, maybe, just maybe, this time they have sufficient direct evidence to put an end to this crap. I'm convinced that's why Cameron acted.

I to would like to think he's canny enough to only start an international maneuver that he can finish!

[Fat Haggis]

As I've asked in other threads why is the second set of results from the accused taking longer to publish and release compared to Nomsods press opportunities with his daddy?

[Bleacher Bum East]

The biggest problem that Westerners have with understanding the situation, is to ever believe that there is any real interest in the law, or even justice. Like many other multi-billion dollar companies, employing thousands, where the only thing that matters is the bottom line and the people at the very top will do anything to protect their bottom line, no matter how dirty things get at the lowest levels.

Of course the really dirty jobs have to be outsourced, just like those operating using slave labour, so there can be no direct connection back to the major players, but they in turn are protected and that is why no matter how much pressure is ever applied from the West, nothing will ever really change.

Once you understand human nature, without any form of conscience, then you can understand why brutal murders will continue to go unsolved and why the slave trade is both alive and flourishing.

In my opinion, the lowest of the absolute low, are the people who try to defend this type of regime.

"Like many other multi-billion dollar companies, employing thousands, where the only thing that matters is the bottom line and the people at the very top will do anything to protect their bottom line, no matter how dirty things get at the lowest levels."

Let's assume this is true for the sake of discussion...

What happened on Koh Tao and its aftermath has had/will have a hugely negative impact, both tangible bottom line and intangible, on many people from the controlling families on Koh Tao all they up the social and economic ladder that will be way higher than it would have been if the situation had been handled properly from the beginning.

While some insiders may not care about this and will try just to protect the status quo, there will hopefully be some insiders that will realize it is in their own best interests, bottom line and otherwise, to change things so that this does not continue to happen.

Pressure for change needs to happen from the outside, but for real change to happen it must come from the inside. And this usually occurs when people on the inside realize it is in their own best interests to change (for an example see Burma over the last couple of years).

My hope for Thailand and the people I love here is that what happened in this case will be a catalyst for this to occur. Nobody powerful on the inside will admit this is happening, and it will require a long power struggle to change things over time, but hopefully this step backwards will result in some internal steps forward.

I know, I know, wishful thinking. But we've seen a lot of change in places where you never would have expected it.

The key is to get enough powerful people on the inside to realize that change really is in their own best interest.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[AleG]

The biggest problem that Westerners have with understanding the situation, is to ever believe that there is any real interest in the law, or even justice. Like many other multi-billion dollar companies, employing thousands, where the only thing that matters is the bottom line and the people at the very top will do anything to protect their bottom line, no matter how dirty things get at the lowest levels.

Of course the really dirty jobs have to be outsourced, just like those operating using slave labour, so there can be no direct connection back to the major players, but they in turn are protected and that is why no matter how much pressure is ever applied from the West, nothing will ever really change.

Once you understand human nature, without any form of conscience, then you can understand why brutal murders will continue to go unsolved and why the slave trade is both alive and flourishing.

In my opinion, the lowest of the absolute low, are the people who try to defend this type of regime.

Lynching mobs are also part of human nature, and that's what this threads with people trying to pin the murders on someone without one single shred of evidence to support the claim are.

[DennisF]

The biggest problem that Westerners have with understanding the situation, is to ever believe that there is any real interest in the law, or even justice. Like many other multi-billion dollar companies, employing thousands, where the only thing that matters is the bottom line and the people at the very top will do anything to protect their bottom line, no matter how dirty things get at the lowest levels.

Of course the really dirty jobs have to be outsourced, just like those operating using slave labour, so there can be no direct connection back to the major players, but they in turn are protected and that is why no matter how much pressure is ever applied from the West, nothing will ever really change.

Once you understand human nature, without any form of conscience, then you can understand why brutal murders will continue to go unsolved and why the slave trade is both alive and flourishing.

In my opinion, the lowest of the absolute low, are the people who try to defend this type of regime.

Lynching mobs are also part of human nature, and that's what this threads with people trying to pin the murders on someone without one single shred of evidence to support the claim are.

Lynching mobs are not a natural part of human nature in this modern and almost civilised world.

The no single shred of evidence theory can be attributed to both the RTP and the conspiracy theorists.

You pick.

[AleG]

The biggest problem that Westerners have with understanding the situation, is to ever believe that there is any real interest in the law, or even justice. Like many other multi-billion dollar companies, employing thousands, where the only thing that matters is the bottom line and the people at the very top will do anything to protect their bottom line, no matter how dirty things get at the lowest levels.

Of course the really dirty jobs have to be outsourced, just like those operating using slave labour, so there can be no direct connection back to the major players, but they in turn are protected and that is why no matter how much pressure is ever applied from the West, nothing will ever really change.

Once you understand human nature, without any form of conscience, then you can understand why brutal murders will continue to go unsolved and why the slave trade is both alive and flourishing.

In my opinion, the lowest of the absolute low, are the people who try to defend this type of regime.

Lynching mobs are also part of human nature, and that's what this threads with people trying to pin the murders on someone without one single shred of evidence to support the claim are.

Lynching mobs are not a natural part of human nature in this modern and almost civilised world.

The no single shred of evidence theory can be attributed to both the RTP and the conspiracy theorists.

You pick.

Your first point is factually wrong, your second incomprehensible.

I pick rational thinking and evidence based judgement.

[jdinasia]

The biggest problem that Westerners have with understanding the situation, is to ever believe that there is any real interest in the law, or even justice. Like many other multi-billion dollar companies, employing thousands, where the only thing that matters is the bottom line and the people at the very top will do anything to protect their bottom line, no matter how dirty things get at the lowest levels.

Of course the really dirty jobs have to be outsourced, just like those operating using slave labour, so there can be no direct connection back to the major players, but they in turn are protected and that is why no matter how much pressure is ever applied from the West, nothing will ever really change.

Once you understand human nature, without any form of conscience, then you can understand why brutal murders will continue to go unsolved and why the slave trade is both alive and flourishing.

In my opinion, the lowest of the absolute low, are the people who try to defend this type of regime.

Lynching mobs are also part of human nature, and that's what this threads with people trying to pin the murders on someone without one single shred of evidence to support the claim are.

Lynching mobs are not a natural part of human nature in this modern and almost civilised world.

The no single shred of evidence theory can be attributed to both the RTP and the conspiracy theorists.

You pick.

Google "mobile kills"

[kuma]

boomerangutang, on 31 Oct 2014 - 12:48, said:boomerangutang, on 31 Oct 2014 - 12:48, said:

IslandLover, on 29 Oct 2014 - 18:43, said:IslandLover, on 29 Oct 2014 - 18:43, said:

For all those asking again, yes, post-mortems were carried out on Hannah, and presumably David, as soon as the bodies were returned to the U.K., by a "Home Office" pathologist no less (source: BBC News), in other words, a forensic specialist. I have no idea whether the bodies were embalmed or not before repatriation, or what effect that would have had on these 2nd post-mortems, as there has been no official statement on this.

I realize that it's considered routine to do a forensic investigation of Brit Subjects when (or just before) they're returned to Britain. Did the BBC News mention it as being 'protocol' (should happen, in a general sense) or whether it specifically took place re; this Ko Tao crime? It's key to these many allegations of Thai police skewing DNA evidence. If Brit authorities have DNA results, then I think they should announce it sooner than later. If it's put off (some say until January), then it might be too late to save the Burmese 2, who I still think are scapegoats.

Note: when they pleaded guilty on the 1st day they were held, they were probably told something like, "you plead guilty and you'll get a prison sentence. If you plead not-guilty, and we find you guilty in court, you're going to get the death penalty." Such coersive talk (to plead guilty) is common in such scenarios, and could explain why the Burmese were reluctant, even when they had lawyers, to retract their forced confessions.

All that was said by the BBC was that post-mortem(s) had been carried out by a Home Office pathologist, which would indicate full forensic tests given the nature of this crime. I'm not sure if this meant just for Hannah, or also for David. I can't find the article now on the BBC website so I can't check it. I read about it just before Hannah's funeral a few weeks back. Nothing further has been said in the British press so I guess we will have to wait for the inquest.

Just to be specific a "Home Office" (government) pathogist is used in serious crimes, and they are forensic specialists.

So not sure what to make of the message today....watched BBC for a few minutes at noon time Bkk so it was a Sunday AM broadcast and the closing story was a extended enough piece of the international puppet show being held in Bkk now, with puppeteers from 80 countries.

Part of a carrot/stick approach, or signal that any campaign for what is right is restricted to a few obscure community boards, or setting the stage to announce all is well with what happened, the proper conclusion has been reached?

[jdinasia]

Pardon. 2 posts ago should have read "Google mob kills"

[DennisF]

Interesting that the UK police, who went back, apparently, just before the infamous dna photoshoot

have had nothing to say yet.

Their report will be interesting.

Lets hope they do not wait until the inquest.

[abitmiffed]

As I've asked in other threads why is the second set of results from the accused taking longer to publish and release compared to Nomsods press opportunities with his daddy?

Because its all bs and they have no idea what they are doing. Dirty rotten barstewards.

[DennisF]

As I've asked in other threads why is the second set of results from the accused taking longer to publish and release compared to Nomsods press opportunities with his daddy?

Because its all bs and they have no idea what they are doing. Dirty rotten barstewards.

AFAIK they havent taken a second sample, just offered to.

If the B2 have good lawyers they will refuse as an offer like this may just have ulterior motives, such as the first test was not conclusive.

They are not required to take a second test and to insist on it would add credibility to the conspiracy theories.

Even the RTP cant afford any more bad publicity!

[DennisF]

boomerangutang, on 31 Oct 2014 - 12:48, said:boomerangutang, on 31 Oct 2014 - 12:48, said:

IslandLover, on 29 Oct 2014 - 18:43, said:IslandLover, on 29 Oct 2014 - 18:43, said:

For all those asking again, yes, post-mortems were carried out on Hannah, and presumably David, as soon as the bodies were returned to the U.K., by a "Home Office" pathologist no less (source: BBC News), in other words, a forensic specialist. I have no idea whether the bodies were embalmed or not before repatriation, or what effect that would have had on these 2nd post-mortems, as there has been no official statement on this.

I realize that it's considered routine to do a forensic investigation of Brit Subjects when (or just before) they're returned to Britain. Did the BBC News mention it as being 'protocol' (should happen, in a general sense) or whether it specifically took place re; this Ko Tao crime? It's key to these many allegations of Thai police skewing DNA evidence. If Brit authorities have DNA results, then I think they should announce it sooner than later. If it's put off (some say until January), then it might be too late to save the Burmese 2, who I still think are scapegoats.

Note: when they pleaded guilty on the 1st day they were held, they were probably told something like, "you plead guilty and you'll get a prison sentence. If you plead not-guilty, and we find you guilty in court, you're going to get the death penalty." Such coersive talk (to plead guilty) is common in such scenarios, and could explain why the Burmese were reluctant, even when they had lawyers, to retract their forced confessions.

All that was said by the BBC was that post-mortem(s) had been carried out by a Home Office pathologist, which would indicate full forensic tests given the nature of this crime. I'm not sure if this meant just for Hannah, or also for David. I can't find the article now on the BBC website so I can't check it. I read about it just before Hannah's funeral a few weeks back. Nothing further has been said in the British press so I guess we will have to wait for the inquest.

Just to be specific a "Home Office" (government) pathogist is used in serious crimes, and they are forensic specialists.

So not sure what to make of the message today....watched BBC for a few minutes at noon time Bkk so it was a Sunday AM broadcast and the closing story was a extended enough piece of the international puppet show being held in Bkk now, with puppeteers from 80 countries.

Part of a carrot/stick approach, or signal that any campaign for what is right is restricted to a few obscure community boards, or setting the stage to announce all is well with what happened, the proper conclusion has been reached?

Frankly, I dont think anything can be read into it.

The UK contingent have not been home long enough to give a comprehensive report.

If and when it is released it may confirm the theories or it might confirm the sterling job the RTP has done.

We have to wait and see.

Frustrating as hell isnt it?

[changnaam]

I am sure they will have a lot to say now they are home. These guys are professionals. If the man on the street can smell a rat then they will see it a million miles away

[jdinasia]

I am sure they will have a lot to say now they are home. These guys are professionals. If the man on the street can smell a rat then they will see it a million miles away

Because the man on the Internet (not street) is just never wrong!!

[BoristheBlade]

............Says a man on the internet......

I am sure they will have a lot to say now they are home. These guys are professionals. If the man on the street can smell a rat then they will see it a million miles away

Because the man on the Internet (not street) is just never wrong!!

[Bleacher Bum East]

I am sure they will have a lot to say now they are home. These guys are professionals. If the man on the street can smell a rat then they will see it a million miles away

I wouldn't expect to hear anything from the British government right away.

They would much rather not have to make any public reports/statements that conflict with or criticizes the results of the Thai investigation.

So if they do have conflicting information or harsh criticisms, they will keep them close to the vest right now and see how the process plays out in Thailand ... at least until there is a formal charge and possibly even until after a trial and verdict (which may be why they pushed the coroners inquiry into January).

At the same time they will be nudging/pushing the Thai authorities behind the scenes in the right direction by making them aware of what they know and/or processes they think are unfair to try and get the Thai authorities to do the right thing on there own.

Only if all else fails and it appears a travesty of justice is likely to happen will they issue a critical report to the public.

Of course all of this is assuming they actually have conflicting information ... if they don't and they've been satisfied the DNA testing was reliable, then they will simply issue a cause of death report and let the results stand as they come out.

This is my guess how it will play out ... and yes it is a guess.

I think for issues like this, what the British investigator observers are actually doing, etc., speculation is harmless and interesting.

We'll see how it plays out.

[heyexile]

For all those asking again, yes, post-mortems were carried out on Hannah, and presumably David, as soon as the bodies were returned to the U.K., by a "Home Office" pathologist no less (source: BBC News), in other words, a forensic specialist. I have no idea whether the bodies were embalmed or not before repatriation, or what effect that would have had on these 2nd post-mortems, as there has been no official statement on this.

I realize that it's considered routine to do a forensic investigation of Brit Subjects when (or just before) they're returned to Britain. Did the BBC News mention it as being 'protocol' (should happen, in a general sense) or whether it specifically took place re; this Ko Tao crime? It's key to these many allegations of Thai police skewing DNA evidence. If Brit authorities have DNA results, then I think they should announce it sooner than later. If it's put off (some say until January), then it might be too late to save the Burmese 2, who I still think are scapegoats.

Note: when they pleaded guilty on the 1st day they were held, they were probably told something like, "you plead guilty and you'll get a prison sentence. If you plead not-guilty, and we find you guilty in court, you're going to get the death penalty." Such coersive talk (to plead guilty) is common in such scenarios, and could explain why the Burmese were reluctant, even when they had lawyers, to retract their forced confessions.

They have not pled guilty. They confessed.

It's obligatory for an inquest and a post mortem when bodies of residents of England and Wales are returned to the UK, if they died in suspicious circumstances. Their families may also request a British police inquiry into the circumstances surrounding their deaths but this must take place in the UK, if authorities in the country the murder took place don't allow British police to investigate there (many European countries cooperate on this). This doesn't apply in Scotland and Northern Ireland, nor does it apply in Jersey where David is from, as they are not strictly speaking British. However, Jersey has its own laws which may be similar and certainly it applies in Hannah's case. In Thailand the families of murder and rape victims are entitled to request an independent investigation by the DSI which could order new forensic tests to be done by the Khunying Pornthip's forensic team which is also under the Ministry of Justice, but I don't know, if this still applies once the case is under the jurisdiction of the court, once the police have wrapped up their investigation. Also it is now up to the DSI's board to decide whether to accept cases or not after the latest revamp of their rules following several years of political involvement when the DSI chief could order investigations by himself.

The Channel Isles inc Jersey are odd Crown Protected Territories with their own banking and tax regimes,

However their international affairs, defense and the like are handled by the crown ie UK Gov.

As the inquests involve murders o`seas, it seems likely that Jersey and England will cooperate with coroners` inquest, maybe just have the one coroner for both tragic deaths. The same home office pathologist appears to have been used for both post-mortem in UK if I remember Brit press, Jersey post etc?