Sweden recognises Palestinian state

[arjunadawn]

The government of Israel will surely recognize the state of "Palestine" if and when such a state actually exists with negotiations with the state of Israel being part of that creation, not unilateral actions.

The State of Palestine exists now. The majority of governments in the world have recognized it.

That's what you think. Somehow I doubt the Palestinians living in Gaza and West Bank actually think they have a real state yet.

Be clear, personally I do want them to have a real state, but they're going to have to deal with Israel, like it or not, or it's not really going to happen EVER.

It certainly won't happen with Likud in power.

And yes they do think that they are a nation. Occupied, but still a nation.

Yea, and thats rub, isnt it? They claim the very land they now possess, for which Israel exercises military control, is their land, their state (West Bank). From this it is hoped some solution can be found to afford them true Statehood from these possessions they now have, for which, yes, Israel exercises military control. However, IMO, the West Bank, for example, is not palestinian nor was it ever intended to be so. The palestinians, with the urging and instigation of the "occupiers" (Jordan) from 1948 to 1967, occupied legally titled land of the Jews. Unhappy with the mandate accords that they themselves conceeded to, they immediately began to push Jews to the sea and the armistice lines of 48 had this arab quasi possession of the West Bank. In any future agreement I applaud Israel if they concede the West Bank as in my estimation it was never intended to belong to those who were given the entire Hashemite Kingdom.

Some might think my attached link editorializing Islamic expansion is too global for such a narrow regional issue, but I disagree. The entire life of Islam has had tried and practiced behaviors for furthering Islam at every turn; two for today, victimization and outright conquest. Without question these two practices have been the foundation for Islamic expansion and intolerance since the Prophet migrated to Medina. Whenever Islam has been unable to outright conquer it has delcared itself a victim, over and over. In the modern case of the Levant there are really some true victims, unrelated to their religion- the local arabs. Without question many are aggrieved. But the larger context is set up by regional muslim players who overall follow the same tactics of islamic expansion for millenia.

For those of you who think the mideast problem will be solved by either single or combination creation of Palestine and obliteration of Israel, you dream! The Israel debacle is only a sideshow to islamic expansion. Dont think so? Ask them. Listen to what they tell us!

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/specialreports/archives/2014/11/20141106-215811.html

[Seastallion]

In any case, still the most popular party currently in Gaza AND West Bank is indeed HAMAS.

But they wouldn't be if Israel wasn't so cruel to ordinary civilian Palestinians. Very simple. Cease the cruelty, undermine Hamas' popularity.

And before you take offense at the word "cruel", denying Gazan children crayons and school books, proper medical care etc etc etc is unnecessary and cruel.

The Jerusalem Post article you quoted was full of equating anti-Israel sentiments as anti-semitic, which is plain wrong. Just as me and several other posters here who despise Israeli politics are not anti-semitic.

These people (and you) should stop trying to use the power of the "anti-semite" label to vilify political or ideological opposition to Israel's policies.

[Ulysses G.]

The Jerusalem Post article you quoted was full of equating anti-Israel sentiments as anti-semitic, which is plain wrong.

It is wrong sometimes. Mostly it is not. The recent anti-Semitic protests all over the world where left-wingers marched with neo-Nazis and supporters of radical Islam makes that more than obvious.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/11/anti-semitic-muslim-protesters-chant-heil-hitler-in-london/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-spills-into-europe-with-protests-anti-jewish-slogans/2014/07/30/36ca8d41-b5a4-4790-9b53-c94e75da4ba6_story.html

Edited November 9, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[up-country_sinclair]

The government of Israel will surely recognize the state of "Palestine" if and when such a state actually exists with negotiations with the state of Israel being part of that creation, not unilateral actions.

The State of Palestine exists now. The majority of governments in the world have recognized it.

That's what you think. Somehow I doubt the Palestinians living in Gaza and West Bank actually think they have a real state yet.

Be clear, personally I do want them to have a real state, but they're going to have to deal with Israel, like it or not, or it's not really going to happen EVER.

You'll need to put some Windex on that crystal ball.

But in all seriousness, this is what has the Palestine demonizers so frightened---the increasing likelihood of Israel being irrelevant in the process which leads to Palestinian statehood.

[Scott]

Please post in a civil manner. If members are going to post in an inflammatory manner, then warnings will have to be given.

[up-country_sinclair]

The Jerusalem Post article you quoted was full of equating anti-Israel sentiments as anti-semitic, which is plain wrong.

It is wrong sometimes. Mostly it is not. The recent anti-Semitic protests all over the world where left-wingers marched with neo-Nazis and supporters of radical Islam makes that more than obvious.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/11/anti-semitic-muslim-protesters-chant-heil-hitler-in-london/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-spills-into-europe-with-protests-anti-jewish-slogans/2014/07/30/36ca8d41-b5a4-4790-9b53-c94e75da4ba6_story.html

It's this type of disingenuous post which causes so many posters to raise questions as to your credibility.

The protests were most definitely not anti-semitic in nature. At worst they could be described anti-Israeli policy, but more accurately they were pro-Palestine. This is not to say that there weren't some anti-semitics in the crowds, but by no means did they make up the majority.

To say that leftists marched with neo-nazis and "supporters of radical Islam" is also not accurate. It's quite plain to any casual observer that the neo-nazis and "supporters of radical Islam" marched with the leftists. There is a significant difference between the two. For example, how many racists do you think attended the Republican National Convention in 2012. Any reasonable person would say that there had to be some in the crowd. But few would say that they made up the majority. So would it be accurate to phrase it as "Republicans held a conference with racists"? I really don't think you would, because that wouldn't fit your agenda.

[Jingthing]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

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[Loptr]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

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Oh my, I guess the poor, defenseless Israelis will just have to live with the derision of the rest of the world...

[jdinasia]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

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No, if you say kill Jews from the river to the sea it is at best ethnic cleansing and at worst genocide.

Then again, if you feel that strongly then do you describe the Likud charter as genocidal?

I certainly would describe the actions of Israel over the years as ethnic cleansing of areas that were not part of the original area ceeded to Israel.

[Jingthing]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Oh my, I guess the poor, defenseless Israelis will just have to live with the derision of the rest of the world...

Not defenseless any more thanks to the Jewish state. Israel demonizers would be happy to see Jews defenseless again.

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[japsportscarmad]

Tough, iron clad trade sanctions on Israel are long overdue. The UN needs to make this a priority.

Why not? The UN seems to make everything else about Israel demonization a priority.

The UN don't need to demonise anyone do they, through strong public opinion Sweden acted. The UK recently voted as well and they're not a tiny insignificant country or economy.

I watched Aljazera last night, and I know they have an agenda and who funds them before anyone moans. However there was plenty of evidence that the settlers (who do not own the land they settle on) were stopping the Palestinians from harvesting their olives which they have so for centuries. Significantly, there was video of the settlers attacking and harassing the farmers.

How can you reconcile the actions of these people supported, protected and subsidised by the Israeli state attacking people doing something they have done for centuries. These sorts of incidents are why the world has woken up, as before easy to take video was cheaply available, we were told (lied to) that these sorts of things were not happening.

Posts on here talk about one German MP saying that the Israeli regime is not Nazi Germany he is correct Hitler was truly evil and headed an organised killing machine.

However, it is unfortunate that considering the history of those now settling in Israel you can draw several comparisons with what went on in Germany during the Second World War including:

Forced expulsion from land.

Stopping trade by Palestinian business (by severely restricting movement and separating communities).

Settling on land grabbed from a minority.

Detention without trial.

Extra judicial murders by the state, both inside and outside Israel.

Shelling and murder of civilians even when it is clear they are civilians (UN compound).

Terrorist acts such as the U.S. Spy ship.

Separating communities with the wall built and forcing communities to live in certain areas (Ghettos).

It is also ironic as Germany took down the Berlin Wall and yet Israel has continued to build a very large one cutting across Palestinian lands.

In the past much that was going on could be denied as there was little proof and we took Israel's word for it, but now it is easy to send video and pictures of things happening in real time. Significantly, when Israel denies it did something then video emerges showing the opposite what do you think people think?

Edited November 9, 2014 by japsportscarmad

[Jingthing]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

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No, if you say kill Jews from the river to the sea it is at best ethnic cleansing and at worst genocide.

Then again, if you feel that strongly then do you describe the Likud charter as genocidal?

I certainly would describe the actions of Israel over the years as ethnic cleansing of areas that were not part of the original area ceeded to Israel.

Many Jews including me consider the chant as being pro genocide. I won't speak to Likud. I am not even Israeli.

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[jdinasia]

It seems awfully convenient to focus on one group and ignore the genocidal /ethnic cleansing rhetoric of the leaders of the other group.

Edit -many anti zionist Jews agree with the sentiment that Israel doesn't belong there.

Edited November 9, 2014 by jdinasia

[japsportscarmad]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Oh my, I guess the poor, defenseless Israelis will just have to live with the derision of the rest of the world...

Not defenseless any more thanks to the Jewish state. Israel demonizers would be happy to see Jews defenseless again.

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I don't think anyone Is demonising Israel they're just trying to get a point across, no one wants to see Jews murdered, but what is going on does not help in convincing the world that the Palestinians are anything more than innocent bystanders dealing with a cruel regime. We know many are not so innocent, but many are and that's the point isn't it as what goes on in the actions of the state turns the moderates into radicals, so it is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Edited November 9, 2014 by japsportscarmad

[Jingthing]

It seems awfully convenient to focus on one group and ignore the genocidal /ethnic cleansing rhetoric of the leaders of the other group.

Edit -many anti zionist Jews agree with the sentiment that Israel doesn't belong there.

Yes we know full well how the Israel demonization set love to point to the minority of Jews who don't want Israel to exist.

On your other point I refuse to be sucked into a trollish game of defending the most right wing aspects of Israeli actions and politics which I have never supported. Some posters on here are happy to defend the river to the sea chants. Talk about a double standard.

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Edited November 9, 2014 by Jingthing

[japsportscarmad]

The Jerusalem Post article you quoted was full of equating anti-Israel sentiments as anti-semitic, which is plain wrong.

It is wrong sometimes. Mostly it is not. The recent anti-Semitic protests all over the world where left-wingers marched with neo-Nazis and supporters of radical Islam makes that more than obvious.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/11/anti-semitic-muslim-protesters-chant-heil-hitler-in-london/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-spills-into-europe-with-protests-anti-jewish-slogans/2014/07/30/36ca8d41-b5a4-4790-9b53-c94e75da4ba6_story.html

As far as I can see Right wing groups in the UK and lefties always fight and in fact the right wing groups such as the National front, BNP and English Defence League regularly now hold the Israeli flag at their meetings are they are totally anti Islam and it provokes Muslim outrage.

Neo Nazi groups now see the Muslims as a bigger threat than Jews and there are many Jews in the E.D.L. actually I know a few. If you go on sites such Stormfront which is a White Power message site most anger is against Muslims and very few posts condemn Jews or Israel anymore, which has changed significantly over the last 10 years.

Actually the British government discourages the EDL from marching, and puts all sorts of restrictions, harasses its members, arrests for no reason, and won't allow the routes near Muslim areas or near lefty flash points as there will be big fights.

If you google EDL and watch on You Tube you will often see the Israeli flag at marches, that's why I don't bother going anymore as it's the English Defence league not the Israeli Defence league.

You will never get the socialist workers and right wing groups to march together or they will fight each other.

[jdinasia]

It seems awfully convenient to focus on one group and ignore the genocidal /ethnic cleansing rhetoric of the leaders of the other group.

Edit -many anti zionist Jews agree with the sentiment that Israel doesn't belong there.

Yes we know full well how the Israel demonization set love to point to the minority of Jews who don't want Israel to exist.

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You and many others think.... OK

Other Jews and many of them are not Zionists.

This has nothing to do with demonizing Israel.

I agree to the right of Israel to exist. I also think that your avoidance of addressing the severe issue of the Likud is intellectually dishonest.

Let's look at the maps from 47 until now. Then consider who has practiced ethnic cleansing.

http://joshberer.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/map12_move_borders.jpg

Edit - just saw your edit. The double standard is in refusing to acknowledge the current governing party of Israel and only talking about the extremists on the other side.

Likud is not a fringe element, they are the ruling party.

Edited November 9, 2014 by jdinasia

[Jingthing]

The vast majority of Jews support the existence of Israel as a state with a dominant Jewish character. That is Zionism. Anyone who agrees with the river to the sea chant can't possibly support the right of Israel to exist. Such an assertion wouldn't fool anyone.

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Edited November 9, 2014 by Jingthing

[Seastallion]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

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It wouldn't be genocide if they went back to Europe where most of them came from only one or two generations ago.

Not saying that I support that, just that you are being a bit dramatic with your genocide accusation.

[Jingthing]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It wouldn't be genocide if they went back to Europe where most of them came from only one or two generations ago.

Not saying that I support that, just that you are being a bit dramatic with your genocide accusation.

There it is folks. The classic Israel delegitimatization big lie. No response needed.

So you support the right of Israel to exist do you? Why not be more honest?

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Edited November 9, 2014 by Jingthing

[Seastallion]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It wouldn't be genocide if they went back to Europe where most of them came from only one or two generations ago.

Not saying that I support that, just that you are being a bit dramatic with your genocide accusation.

There it is folks. The classic Israel delegitimatization big lie. No response needed.

So you support the right of Israel to exist do you? Why not be more honest?

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What is untruthful there? Nothing.

[Ulysses G.]

The Jerusalem Post article you quoted was full of equating anti-Israel sentiments as anti-semitic, which is plain wrong.

It is wrong sometimes. Mostly it is not. The recent anti-Semitic protests all over the world where left-wingers marched with neo-Nazis and supporters of radical Islam makes that more than obvious.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/11/anti-semitic-muslim-protesters-chant-heil-hitler-in-london/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-spills-into-europe-with-protests-anti-jewish-slogans/2014/07/30/36ca8d41-b5a4-4790-9b53-c94e75da4ba6_story.html

It's this type of disingenuous post which causes so many posters to raise questions as to your credibility.

The protests were most definitely not anti-semitic in nature.

Only posters who deny reality and plenty of evidence. Those protest were reported as anti-Semitic by mainstream media all over the world and that is exactly what they were. I put your complaint in the same box as anti-Semites that claim to be "anti-Zionists": Camouflage .

The protests have triggered warnings that the spectre of anti-Semitism has returned to haunt Europe.

Protesters have attacked synagogues, smashed the windows of Jewish-owned business and torched others, in scenes disturbingly reminiscent of the 1938 Kristallnacht in France. The marchers have chanted “Jews to the gas chambers”, and Jewish people have been attacked on the streets of Berlin.

http://rt.com/uk/180600-gaza-police-jews-tension/

But what a picture. These are the people who stayed at home throughout the Syrian civil war, stayed at home when ISIS rampaged across Iraq, stayed at home when Boko Haram and Al-Shabaab carried out their atrocities across central Africa and showed no concern whatsoever when the Muslim Brotherhood was running Egypt into the ground. Yet they pretend to care about Muslims.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/07/londons-pro-palestine-rally-was-a-disgusting-anti-semitic-spectacle/

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2014/07/23/antisemitism-seeping-into-france-n1865007

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyside-neo-nazis-arrested-after-planning-8072355

[Ulysses G.]

Let's look at the maps from 47 until now. Then consider who has practiced ethnic cleansing.

You mean the map of what the Palestinians were offered in 47, that they TURNED DOWN and declared war on Israel instead? That sounds like a problem that the Palestinians are responsible for themselves - like most of their problems.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[up-country_sinclair]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It wouldn't be genocide if they went back to Europe where most of them came from only one or two generations ago.

Not saying that I support that, just that you are being a bit dramatic with your genocide accusation.

There it is folks. The classic Israel delegitimatization big lie.

Just out of curiosity, how many "big lies" are there? I'm starting to lose track.

[jdinasia]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It wouldn't be genocide if they went back to Europe where most of them came from only one or two generations ago.

Not saying that I support that, just that you are being a bit dramatic with your genocide accusation.

There it is folks. The classic Israel delegitimatization big lie. No response needed.

So you support the right of Israel to exist do you? Why not be more honest?

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You might try to read what he said. He was just showing your genocide claim as hyperbole

[jdinasia]

Let's look at the maps from 47 until now. Then consider who has practiced ethnic cleansing.

You mean the map of what the Palestinians were offered in 47, that they TURNED DOWN and declared war on Israel instead? That sounds like a problem that the Palestinians are responsible for themselves - like most of their problems.

Nice bit of deflection. 5 countries attacked. Yet the Jewish settlers had already begun ethnic cleansing. (as well as terror attacks)

[Jingthing]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It wouldn't be genocide if they went back to Europe where most of them came from only one or two generations ago.

Not saying that I support that, just that you are being a bit dramatic with your genocide accusation.

There it is folks. The classic Israel delegitimatization big lie. No response needed.

So you support the right of Israel to exist do you? Why not be more honest?

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

What is untruthful there? Nothing.

So disingenuous! River to the sea? Israel would fight. If they lost there would be genocide. Also to Jews hearing go back to Poland etc. is massively inflammatory and antisemitic. Similar to racists saying African Americans should go back to Africa. I've had enough of responding to such obviously disingenuous and inflammatory baits.

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[jdinasia]

The vast majority of Jews support the existence of Israel as a state with a dominant Jewish character. That is Zionism. Anyone who agrees with the river to the sea chant can't possibly support the right of Israel to exist. Such an assertion wouldn't fool anyone.

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I have no idea if "the vast majority of Jews" think one way or another.

I can say that the vast majority of countries in the world have recognized Palestine

[Jingthing]

If you chant Free Palestine river to the sea you're supporting genocide of Jews. That's pretty darned antisemitic..

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It wouldn't be genocide if they went back to Europe where most of them came from only one or two generations ago.

Not saying that I support that, just that you are being a bit dramatic with your genocide accusation.

There it is folks. The classic Israel delegitimatization big lie. No response needed.

So you support the right of Israel to exist do you? Why not be more honest?

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You might try to read what he said. He was just showing your genocide claim as hyperbole

No he was trying to rationalize genocidal rhetoric and I was not fooled nor are most Jews about the implications of river to the sea.

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[Ulysses G.]

Let's look at the maps from 47 until now. Then consider who has practiced ethnic cleansing.

You mean the map of what the Palestinians were offered in 47, that they TURNED DOWN and declared war on Israel instead? That sounds like a problem that the Palestinians are responsible for themselves - like most of their problems.

Nice bit of deflection. 5 countries attacked. Yet the Jewish settlers had already begun ethnic cleansing. (as well as terror attacks)

Nice bit of nonsense. The Palestinian Arabs began the violence and terrorism long before the Jews responded. Even before the Mandate for Palestine was assigned to Great Britain by the Allies and endorsed by the League of Nations in 1920, Palestinian Arabs were carrying out organized attacks against Jewish communities in Palestine.

The Arabs caused the war that they declared and then LOST and have been whining about ever since. They need to take responsibility for their own actions for a change, instead of blaming everyone else. .

Edited November 9, 2014 by Ulysses G.