Yingluck's lawyer hit back at TDRI's Niphon

[marinediscoking]

On the face of it you appear to be the perfect voter, a true cynic. No expectations of honesty, accountability, performance or value for money. At what point would you complain about the loss of tax payer funds, when it's all gone, 50% gone or never, just write it off as "that's what governments do", unbelievable. I expect your personal slogan would be " The government can piss away all the money there is and leave the treasury bare. I pledge to never complain".

Most Thai's want to hard evidence not hyperbole! However no one in this country is allowed to vote so I am not sure who you are referring to. YL has asked for the trial to proceed quickly but it seems they don't have the evidence against her even at a Thai standard. Months and months have gone by, how long do they need to find it?

How many Thai government subsities have lost money over the last 50 years? Most have! So give us your standard in an amount (baht) that a PM should be prosecuted after a subsidy?

Many international academics have weighed in on this matter and they believe this is no more than political opposition trying to trump up a charge.

Having ran a business here over 10 years the real damage happens to the economy during coups and martial law.

edit spelling.

Edited November 7, 2014 by marinediscoking

[Si Thea01]

Thai at heart post # 5

Please note, nowhere did the 1tn baht make any mention of misappropriation. This subsidy was so big and for so long, it achieved this without any significant theft.

And as yet, not probably a baht to Yingluck herself. So.

Good luck to the prosecution.

Should be an easy matter to find the money trail to Dubai as opposed to little sister shouldn't it?

Um, considering Thailand conducts international business through the international clearing system, I am amazed they haven't found this gargantuan theft already.

Isn't 1tn baht enough to.make the Burj Dubai fall over.

You think the shins would actually be so stupid to steal from this?what did they say last week after the 3mn tonne scaremongering. 100,000 tonnes from 58,000,000 purchase. O.0? How much missing?

They have NOTHING to pin on her directly. Nothing.

Here we go again. Another tenuous Quote. Assumptions and speculation only. How in the hell would you know what they have or do not have on her? Are you privy to inside information that the rest of us are not.

I certainly do not know if she is guilty of not and I am sure you do not have access to the prosecution or defence's files so how can you make such a ludicrous statement.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Si Thea01

[Robby nz]

Thai at heart post # 5

Please note, nowhere did the 1tn baht make any mention of misappropriation. This subsidy was so big and for so long, it achieved this without any significant theft.

And as yet, not probably a baht to Yingluck herself. So.

Good luck to the prosecution.

Should be an easy matter to find the money trail to Dubai as opposed to little sister shouldn't it?

Except for the fact they can't find anyone's trails to arrest the ones with their fingers in the pie, most of the ones who will be found out are lower end ministers and rice buyers and producers with the odd miller thrown in.

Don't expect a link to Dubai to be found any time soon

There were documented links to Thaksin with video evidence established during the 2012 no confidence debate :

Check out :

Posted 2012-11-27 05:30:59

NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE

Rice deals with China fake : opposition

All this and more will be included in the NACC flies.

[jayboy]

The follow through of the rice scheme is the big test for the present government. If none of the big shots gets send to prison for long years all will be lost. Corruption in the top then will not be punished as usual. And this after the biggest steal in history. Then the general who started out doing rather well, especially compared to the horrible previous government, will be no real good after all.

So please please please save Thailand. Start the process of really fighting corruption. Lock up lil sis, Tarit, the wino Chalerm and the other top criminals. Then start working on bringing home the missunderstood fugitive, the big bad poisenous spider. Please please please care about the people.

This kind of incoherent post doesn't really merit a response though it's odd that the Yingluck haters appear to be uniformly inarticulate.However my attention was caught by the plea to care about the people.It's worth stressing that the way to achieve that objective is to restore democracy as soon as possible and hold early elections - very much the message that the civilised world had been pressing on the Thai dictatorship.

[brucec64]

On the face of it you appear to be the perfect voter, a true cynic. No expectations of honesty, accountability, performance or value for money. At what point would you complain about the loss of tax payer funds, when it's all gone, 50% gone or never, just write it off as "that's what governments do", unbelievable. I expect your personal slogan would be " The government can piss away all the money there is and leave the treasury bare. I pledge to never complain".

Most Thai's want to hard evidence not hyperbole! However no one in this country is allowed to vote so I am not sure who you are referring to. YL has asked for the trial to proceed quickly but it seems they don't have the evidence against her even at a Thai standard. Months and months have gone by, how long do they need to find it?

How many Thai government subsities have lost money over the last 50 years? Most have! So give us your standard in an amount (baht) that a PM should be prosecuted after a subsidy?

Many international academics have weighed in on this matter and they believe this is no more than political opposition trying to trump up a charge.

Having ran a business here over 10 years the real damage happens to the economy during coups and martial law.

edit spelling.

You are absolutely right. The loss of GDP from the coup and martial law in two years will exceed the total costs of the rice subsidy over 3 years!

One thing that seems to go unnoticed in the haste to vilify the previous government is the cost of the protests, martial law and a coup to the country. According to the Economist, a coup cost about 7% of GDP, or 808 billion baht!!!! (http://www.economist...ailands-economy)

The members of the triumphant mob that cheered the army to power are still enjoying their victory. Playing politics with the economy is an expensive business. The costs to Thailand’s economy are still piling up. Compared with trend economic growth the cost will be perhaps $20 billion to $30 billion from 2014 to 2016, which makes it roughly equal in value to the wealth of the Thai monarchy. One can only hope the junta’s upcoming performance is good enough to offset such a loss.

It took the previous government 3 years to accumulate this loss, but actions by the current regime will accomplish this in two! Add in the loss of growth resulting from Suthep's long drawn out protests and election blocking, and the total loss to Thailand could top 1 trillion.

[jesimps]

Good luck to a beautiful, well-meaning and dignified lady against the orchs of the yellow peril. They're determined to pull you down by foul means because they know there's no way they can defeat you in free and fair elections. Go gal, fight them with everything you've got.

[plachon]

Thai at heart post # 5

Please note, nowhere did the 1tn baht make any mention of misappropriation. This subsidy was so big and for so long, it achieved this without any significant theft.

And as yet, not probably a baht to Yingluck herself. So.

Good luck to the prosecution.

Should be an easy matter to find the money trail to Dubai as opposed to little sister shouldn't it?

Um, considering Thailand conducts international business through the international clearing system, I am amazed they haven't found this gargantuan theft already.

Isn't 1tn baht enough to.make the Burj Dubai fall over.

You think the shins would actually be so stupid to steal from this?what did they say last week after the 3mn tonne scaremongering. 100,000 tonnes from 58,000,000 purchase. O.0? How much missing?

They have NOTHING to pin on her directly. Nothing.

And that's always been the beauty of being a prime minister in Thailand surely? You can get away with policy corruption without ever being brought to book. She may never have personally profited from the rice scheme, or maybe she did, but she used it as a system of tacit bribes to the Shin political network nationwide to keep them onside, well-fed and complicit in the game of wholesale kin muang that was going on under her government. It worked for her big brother and previous PMs so why shouldn't it work for her. The main difference was the size and audacity of this particular heist on the public purse. And there are many that think it is time this pattern was broken and PM's should not be above the law, as the baht stops with them over policies.

[jayboy]

Thai at heart post # 5

Please note, nowhere did the 1tn baht make any mention of misappropriation. This subsidy was so big and for so long, it achieved this without any significant theft.

And as yet, not probably a baht to Yingluck herself. So.

Good luck to the prosecution.

Should be an easy matter to find the money trail to Dubai as opposed to little sister shouldn't it?

Um, considering Thailand conducts international business through the international clearing system, I am amazed they haven't found this gargantuan theft already.

Isn't 1tn baht enough to.make the Burj Dubai fall over.

You think the shins would actually be so stupid to steal from this?what did they say last week after the 3mn tonne scaremongering. 100,000 tonnes from 58,000,000 purchase. O.0? How much missing?

They have NOTHING to pin on her directly. Nothing.

And that's always been the beauty of being a prime minister in Thailand surely? You can get away with policy corruption without ever being brought to book. She may never have personally profited from the rice scheme, or maybe she did, but she used it as a system of tacit bribes to the Shin political network nationwide to keep them onside, well-fed and complicit in the game of wholesale kin muang that was going on under her government. It worked for her big brother and previous PMs so why shouldn't it work for her. The main difference was the size and audacity of this particular heist on the public purse. And there are many that think it is time this pattern was broken and PM's should not be above the law, as the baht stops with them over policies.

Not a position I agree with but clearly sane and succinctly argued.As for the corruption, perhaps it makes sense simply to let the law take its course.So far there has been little other than fragmentary evidence: a forensic scrutiny is needed now.Those bureaucrats and businessmen (if any) found to be guilty under law should be dealt with accordingly.I don't think even Thaksin's bitterest enemies believes Khun Yingluck has benefited personally (that kind of wild paranoia is reserved for Thai Visa's small but vocal fruitcake community).Where I differ from you is that I suggest the jury is still out on the motivation for the scheme.Certainly it was ill advised and financially disastrous (not to say politically).But was it driven mainly by kin muang considerations or to appease the Shin network? Isn't it just as likely that it was designed to bolster up the Thaksinite party's popularity with the rural majority? No doubt there was a mixture of motives but to assign weightings now must be a subjective judgement.The critics of the scheme have sometimes got themselves into a dreadful muddle over the populist nature of the scheme.The crime is not the concept (eg the US support for grain farmers, the Japanese support for rice farmers etc) which is entirely legitimate for a fairly elected government to implement.Politics in every democracy is populist in this sense - not just subsidising farmers:the UK NHS is a classic "populist" organisation and none the worse for that.The problem lies in the execution and this is what we need to dig into now.

[tbthailand]

^ ^the function of the TDRI is to conduct policy research and publish its findings; thats it's job. Its why it exists.

right, it is not there to provide 'evidence' in a corruption case

you recall the NACC this summer based the impeachment entirely on the TDRI report and included only the cover page in the documents to the OAG.

Somehow the OAG thought that wasn't sufficient. Surprise, surprise.

And as you are familiar with the group, then you know as well as I do about their political bias. They don't even try to hide it.

As for 'that's why it exists', well, you could say the same about The Heritage Foundation, but that would be ignoring the true reason for it to exist.

[tbthailand]

On the face of it you appear to be the perfect voter, a true cynic. No expectations of honesty, accountability, performance or value for money. At what point would you complain about the loss of tax payer funds, when it's all gone, 50% gone or never, just write it off as "that's what governments do", unbelievable. I expect your personal slogan would be " The government can piss away all the money there is and leave the treasury bare. I pledge to never complain".

Most Thai's want to hard evidence not hyperbole! However no one in this country is allowed to vote so I am not sure who you are referring to. YL has asked for the trial to proceed quickly but it seems they don't have the evidence against her even at a Thai standard. Months and months have gone by, how long do they need to find it?

How many Thai government subsities have lost money over the last 50 years? Most have! So give us your standard in an amount (baht) that a PM should be prosecuted after a subsidy?

Many international academics have weighed in on this matter and they believe this is no more than political opposition trying to trump up a charge.

Having ran a business here over 10 years the real damage happens to the economy during coups and martial law.

edit spelling.

You are absolutely right. The loss of GDP from the coup and martial law in two years will exceed the total costs of the rice subsidy over 3 years!

One thing that seems to go unnoticed in the haste to vilify the previous government is the cost of the protests, martial law and a coup to the country. According to the Economist, a coup cost about 7% of GDP, or 808 billion baht!!!! (http://www.economist...ailands-economy)

The members of the triumphant mob that cheered the army to power are still enjoying their victory. Playing politics with the economy is an expensive business. The costs to Thailand’s economy are still piling up. Compared with trend economic growth the cost will be perhaps $20 billion to $30 billion from 2014 to 2016, which makes it roughly equal in value to the wealth of the Thai monarchy. One can only hope the junta’s upcoming performance is good enough to offset such a loss.

It took the previous government 3 years to accumulate this loss, but actions by the current regime will accomplish this in two! Add in the loss of growth resulting from Suthep's long drawn out protests and election blocking, and the total loss to Thailand could top 1 trillion.

good catch... if as longway claims, TDRI exists to do policy research and publish results, maybe they should research the economist and publish a paper?

Nah, it'll never happen...

[longway]

^ ^the function of the TDRI is to conduct policy research and publish its findings; thats it's job. Its why it exists.

right, it is not there to provide 'evidence' in a corruption case

you recall the NACC this summer based the impeachment entirely on the TDRI report and included only the cover page in the documents to the OAG.

Somehow the OAG thought that wasn't sufficient. Surprise, surprise.

And as you are familiar with the group, then you know as well as I do about their political bias. They don't even try to hide it.

As for 'that's why it exists', well, you could say the same about The Heritage Foundation, but that would be ignoring the true reason for it to exist.

I dont know or care about your obsession with the heritage foundation, i am addressing the function of the tdri, it works extensively with a large number of agencies, local and international, its job is to research policy and publish its findings. And that is what it has done.

The point is to use those findings so public policy can improve in the future, sorry if that interferes with the ptp's aim to steal as much money as possible and get away with it without consequence.

Its just ptp's bad luck that their corrupt scam has been exposed. Perhaps you need to specifically point out where you think the tdri has got it wrong instead of making accusations with nothing to back it up.

Try looking up their past research.

Edited November 7, 2014 by longway

[longway]

On the face of it you appear to be the perfect voter, a true cynic. No expectations of honesty, accountability, performance or value for money. At what point would you complain about the loss of tax payer funds, when it's all gone, 50% gone or never, just write it off as "that's what governments do", unbelievable. I expect your personal slogan would be " The government can piss away all the money there is and leave the treasury bare. I pledge to never complain".

Most Thai's want to hard evidence not hyperbole! However no one in this country is allowed to vote so I am not sure who you are referring to. YL has asked for the trial to proceed quickly but it seems they don't have the evidence against her even at a Thai standard. Months and months have gone by, how long do they need to find it?

How many Thai government subsities have lost money over the last 50 years? Most have! So give us your standard in an amount (baht) that a PM should be prosecuted after a subsidy?

Many international academics have weighed in on this matter and they believe this is no more than political opposition trying to trump up a charge.

Having ran a business here over 10 years the real damage happens to the economy during coups and martial law.

edit spelling.

You are absolutely right. The loss of GDP from the coup and martial law in two years will exceed the total costs of the rice subsidy over 3 years!

One thing that seems to go unnoticed in the haste to vilify the previous government is the cost of the protests, martial law and a coup to the country. According to the Economist, a coup cost about 7% of GDP, or 808 billion baht!!!! (http://www.economist...ailands-economy)

The members of the triumphant mob that cheered the army to power are still enjoying their victory. Playing politics with the economy is an expensive business. The costs to Thailands economy are still piling up. Compared with trend economic growth the cost will be perhaps $20 billion to $30 billion from 2014 to 2016, which makes it roughly equal in value to the wealth of the Thai monarchy. One can only hope the juntas upcoming performance is good enough to offset such a loss.

It took the previous government 3 years to accumulate this loss, but actions by the current regime will accomplish this in two! Add in the loss of growth resulting from Suthep's long drawn out protests and election blocking, and the total loss to Thailand could top 1 trillion.

good catch... if as longway claims, TDRI exists to do policy research and publish results, maybe they should research the economist and publish a paper?

Nah, it'll never happen...

You need to consult a dictionary so you can understand the meaning of words.

Try these specifically 'policy' and 'research'.

You might get yourself a clue.

Edited November 7, 2014 by longway

[Local Drunk]

The charge her lawyer is going to have to defend her against is almost impossible to defend... Criminal Negligence. She can't say... "Yes, I was the head of the government and therefore the head this rice pledging policy. However, I never attended the meetings so I never knew what was happening." What's she gonna do, blame her cabinet? For every finger she points at them a hundred will be pointing back.

What was the response of her government when questioned about the rice pledging scheme? Everything is hunky dory.

She should just be honest and say... "I'm not very bright. I am totally unqualified to read a speech teleprompter, much less lead a nation of 60 million people. I got to where I am because of family connections and nothing more. My understanding of how a Democracy and my own government works is limited to what my brother and the cabinet he told me appoint said. I'm so very sorry... I'm shedding public tears."

[Local Drunk]

Good luck to a beautiful, well-meaning and dignified lady against the orchs of the yellow peril. They're determined to pull you down by foul means because they know there's no way they can defeat you in free and fair elections. Go gal, fight them with everything you've got.

Are you serious? She's is and has been out of touch with reality since birth. A trait you both seem to share.

[Thai at Heart]

Thai at heart post # 5

Please note, nowhere did the 1tn baht make any mention of misappropriation. This subsidy was so big and for so long, it achieved this without any significant theft.

And as yet, not probably a baht to Yingluck herself. So.

Good luck to the prosecution.

Should be an easy matter to find the money trail to Dubai as opposed to little sister shouldn't it?

Um, considering Thailand conducts international business through the international clearing system, I am amazed they haven't found this gargantuan theft already.

Isn't 1tn baht enough to.make the Burj Dubai fall over.

You think the shins would actually be so stupid to steal from this?what did they say last week after the 3mn tonne scaremongering. 100,000 tonnes from 58,000,000 purchase. O.0? How much missing?

They have NOTHING to pin on her directly. Nothing.

On the face of it you appear to be the perfect voter, a true cynic. No expectations of honesty, accountability, performance or value for money. At what point would you complain about the loss of tax payer funds, when it's all gone, 50% gone or never, just write it off as "that's what governments do", unbelievable. I expect your personal slogan would be " The government can piss away all the money there is and leave the treasury bare. I pledge to never complain".

I don't expect much from my politicians. If Tony Blair can lie and send young men to war, then anything goes. The system has to be able to catch corruption, and thailand has no history of doing this.

That said, parties are elected to run countries, and it cannot be that a legal policy can become politically illegal for expedient purposes.

Holding the PM accountable for things like this has to be done on very clear legal grounds and principle, or it will cause problems later.

Note, in the other paper, still non progress on the case. Reading it, they are really struggling to define on what grounds they will empeach her and how.

It isn't illegal for a govt to lose money. There are dozens of tax breaks given to the rich in Thailand, which cost the state billions. Why can't they be debated?

Edited November 7, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[JAG]

Good luck to a beautiful, well-meaning and dignified lady against the orchs of the yellow peril. They're determined to pull you down by foul means because they know there's no way they can defeat you in free and fair elections. Go gal, fight them with everything you've got.

Are you serious? She's is and has been out of touch with reality since birth. A trait you both seem to share.

Took a while Jessimps, but you got a bite in the end mate!

By the way, I rather agree with you.

Edited November 7, 2014 by JAG

[Thai at Heart]

The charge her lawyer is going to have to defend her against is almost impossible to defend... Criminal Negligence. She can't say... "Yes, I was the head of the government and therefore the head this rice pledging policy. However, I never attended the meetings so I never knew what was happening." What's she gonna do, blame her cabinet? For every finger she points at them a hundred will be pointing back.

What was the response of her government when questioned about the rice pledging scheme? Everything is hunky dory.

She should just be honest and say... "I'm not very bright. I am totally unqualified to read a speech teleprompter, much less lead a nation of 60 million people. I got to where I am because of family connections and nothing more. My understanding of how a Democracy and my own government works is limited to what my brother and the cabinet he told me appoint said. I'm so very sorry... I'm shedding public tears."

For it to be criminal, she has to have broken a law.

When a public servant distributes ANY service for free the government is by definition losing money.

You are talking about criminalising government.

[tbthailand]

^ ^the function of the TDRI is to conduct policy research and publish its findings; thats it's job. Its why it exists.

right, it is not there to provide 'evidence' in a corruption case

you recall the NACC this summer based the impeachment entirely on the TDRI report and included only the cover page in the documents to the OAG.

Somehow the OAG thought that wasn't sufficient. Surprise, surprise.

And as you are familiar with the group, then you know as well as I do about their political bias. They don't even try to hide it.

As for 'that's why it exists', well, you could say the same about The Heritage Foundation, but that would be ignoring the true reason for it to exist.

I dont know or care about your obsession with the heritage foundation, i am addressing the function of the tdri, it works extensively with a large number of agencies, local and international, its job is to research policy and publish its findings. And that is what it has done.

The point is to use those findings so public policy can improve in the future, sorry if that interferes with the ptp's aim to steal as much money as possible and get away with it without consequence.

Its just ptp's bad luck that their corrupt scam has been exposed. Perhaps you need to specifically point out where you think the tdri has got it wrong instead of making accusations with nothing to back it up.

Try looking up their past research.

I am exceptionally aware of the TDRI research and their political bias. Thanks.

I'm not mentioning the Heritage Foundation except as a point of reference for those who are not familiar with TDRI to point out that their 'research' is equally unbiased.

If you thing the TDRI is 'independent', well that is fine for you.

[tbthailand]

The charge her lawyer is going to have to defend her against is almost impossible to defend... Criminal Negligence. She can't say... "Yes, I was the head of the government and therefore the head this rice pledging policy. However, I never attended the meetings so I never knew what was happening." What's she gonna do, blame her cabinet? For every finger she points at them a hundred will be pointing back.

What was the response of her government when questioned about the rice pledging scheme? Everything is hunky dory.

She should just be honest and say... "I'm not very bright. I am totally unqualified to read a speech teleprompter, much less lead a nation of 60 million people. I got to where I am because of family connections and nothing more. My understanding of how a Democracy and my own government works is limited to what my brother and the cabinet he told me appoint said. I'm so very sorry... I'm shedding public tears."

For it to be criminal, she has to have broken a law.

When a public servant distributes ANY service for free the government is by definition losing money.

You are talking about criminalising government.

When a public servant distributes ANY service for free the government is by definition losing money.

like for a blimp?

[473geo]

Thai at heart post # 5

Please note, nowhere did the 1tn baht make any mention of misappropriation. This subsidy was so big and for so long, it achieved this without any significant theft.

And as yet, not probably a baht to Yingluck herself. So.

Good luck to the prosecution.

Should be an easy matter to find the money trail to Dubai as opposed to little sister shouldn't it?

Um, considering Thailand conducts international business through the international clearing system, I am amazed they haven't found this gargantuan theft already.

Isn't 1tn baht enough to.make the Burj Dubai fall over.

You think the shins would actually be so stupid to steal from this?what did they say last week after the 3mn tonne scaremongering. 100,000 tonnes from 58,000,000 purchase. O.0? How much missing?

They have NOTHING to pin on her directly. Nothing.

Only the promotion and miss-management of a scam that cost Thailand up to 1tn baht. That's before the cost of the school tablet scam and the first car buyers scam. It's amazing Thailand Treasury still has any more left after these 3 grand thefts.

Excellent price for rice over the last couple of years, son has a school tablet he is utiising to learn English, no truck figure there will be some good second hand on the market shortly with rice at the current price

Still 2 out of 3 not bad

What 'grand thefts'?

If 80% of the rice is deemed to be substandard, is the suggestion that it was purchased as substandard by.......?......or that it has depreciated

Do a quick calculation as to the major purchasers of rice in Thailand, I know who buys the rice off much more than 20% of farmers in my area. Interesting don't you think?

[Thai at Heart]

The charge her lawyer is going to have to defend her against is almost impossible to defend... Criminal Negligence. She can't say... "Yes, I was the head of the government and therefore the head this rice pledging policy. However, I never attended the meetings so I never knew what was happening." What's she gonna do, blame her cabinet? For every finger she points at them a hundred will be pointing back.

What was the response of her government when questioned about the rice pledging scheme? Everything is hunky dory.

She should just be honest and say... "I'm not very bright. I am totally unqualified to read a speech teleprompter, much less lead a nation of 60 million people. I got to where I am because of family connections and nothing more. My understanding of how a Democracy and my own government works is limited to what my brother and the cabinet he told me appoint said. I'm so very sorry... I'm shedding public tears."

For it to be criminal, she has to have broken a law.

When a public servant distributes ANY service for free the government is by definition losing money.

You are talking about criminalising government.

When a public servant distributes ANY service for free the government is by definition losing money.

like for a blimp?

Could be. Or an aircraft carrier, or a bomb detector. As I said, prosecuting this type of thing has to be done to a high legal standard. Govts all over the world have subsidy programs.

They are pleading damage. How much damage is criminal. What was debt to GDP before and what is it now?

[Thai at Heart]

Thai at heart post # 5

Please note, nowhere did the 1tn baht make any mention of misappropriation. This subsidy was so big and for so long, it achieved this without any significant theft.

And as yet, not probably a baht to Yingluck herself. So.

Good luck to the prosecution.

Should be an easy matter to find the money trail to Dubai as opposed to little sister shouldn't it?

Um, considering Thailand conducts international business through the international clearing system, I am amazed they haven't found this gargantuan theft already.

Isn't 1tn baht enough to.make the Burj Dubai fall over.

You think the shins would actually be so stupid to steal from this?what did they say last week after the 3mn tonne scaremongering. 100,000 tonnes from 58,000,000 purchase. O.0? How much missing?

They have NOTHING to pin on her directly. Nothing.

And that's always been the beauty of being a prime minister in Thailand surely? You can get away with policy corruption without ever being brought to book. She may never have personally profited from the rice scheme, or maybe she did, but she used it as a system of tacit bribes to the Shin political network nationwide to keep them onside, well-fed and complicit in the game of wholesale kin muang that was going on under her government. It worked for her big brother and previous PMs so why shouldn't it work for her. The main difference was the size and audacity of this particular heist on the public purse. And there are many that think it is time this pattern was broken and PM's should not be above the law, as the baht stops with them over policies.

You are assuming she actually took money from the system.

Lest we forget, that 500 odd billion of this was actually PAID into the Thai economy and contributed to the GDP. This is not a loss from a governmental position

People here think I am defending the system. Was it the best system? Probably not. But on what level can you reasonably prosecute a politician for losing money? By this level Gordon brown would be locked up for 5 lifetimes.

He spent 500bn pounds. This crime is no more relevant than spending on unused infrastructure just to pump money into the economy .

Japan has loads of it, China loads. I am just very sceptical that they can hold her to criminal wrongdoing.

[Thai at Heart]

So the public are to be left in the dark as to the actual loss or misappropriation of the funds for the rice pledging scam scheme.

Indeed the truth is a creature with both a loud bark and a painful bite.

So if we set the standards by the comments made by Mr Norawich, any and all comments he or his team may make that are designed or aimed at defending his client are also deliberate attempts to both mislead and misinform the public?

Please note, nowhere did the 1tn baht make any mention of misappropriation. This subsidy was so big and for so long, it achieved this without any significant theft.

And as yet, not probably a baht to Yingluck herself. So.

Good luck to the prosecution.

""And as yet, not probably a baht to Yingluck herself. So""

Is stupidity a defence?? Mai kow-jai!

Good luck. So far, not very much hard evidence and its not like they are sprinting to court is it. Yingluck has them by the balls and she knows it.

Her lawyers will eat them all alive. This is where the yellow desire to keep the status quo hits reality. The shins will not lie down and no cooked up numbers will win.

They need bank accounts and hard numbers. A the rest is talk. Oooh. They lost money. Strewth, thats what politicians do

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she was charged with dereliction of duty or something similar, not theft. The truth is she was in charge, there are only 3 ways that can explain such a massive loss on her watch. 1. She knew that there was corruption all along the line and did nothing. 2. She was so negligent that she was unaware of anything. 3. She is stupid

Remember this one thing, about one year before the sh#t hit the fan, her finance minister Kittitrat said that the scheme was not financially sustainable and should be stopped. Was Yingluck aware of that. or was she blissfully ignorant of that as well. You do the people of this country a disservice by defending her, at least her lawyer has an excuse....he is getting paid.

You think this system lost money because of corruption?

This thing lost money because of the market.

[Robby nz]

""And as yet, not probably a baht to Yingluck herself. So""

Is stupidity a defence?? Mai kow-jai!

Good luck. So far, not very much hard evidence and its not like they are sprinting to court is it. Yingluck has them by the balls and she knows it.

Her lawyers will eat them all alive. This is where the yellow desire to keep the status quo hits reality. The shins will not lie down and no cooked up numbers will win.

They need bank accounts and hard numbers. A the rest is talk. Oooh. They lost money. Strewth, thats what politicians do

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she was charged with dereliction of duty or something similar, not theft. The truth is she was in charge, there are only 3 ways that can explain such a massive loss on her watch. 1. She knew that there was corruption all along the line and did nothing. 2. She was so negligent that she was unaware of anything. 3. She is stupid

Remember this one thing, about one year before the sh#t hit the fan, her finance minister Kittitrat said that the scheme was not financially sustainable and should be stopped. Was Yingluck aware of that. or was she blissfully ignorant of that as well. You do the people of this country a disservice by defending her, at least her lawyer has an excuse....he is getting paid.

You think this system lost money because of corruption?

This thing lost money because of the market.

You are digging a hole deeper and deeper for yourself TaH give it up

Just one of the proven instances of corruption that has lost the country money, linked to guess who :

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/737022-rice-fraud-verdict-on-thaksins-aide-due-today/page-3

Thaksin aide jailed for rice fraud

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The Samut Prakarn provincial court Tuesday sentenced a close aide to ex-pm Thaksin Shinawatra to six years in jail and fined him Bt12,000 after finding him guilty of embezzlement and fraud for his failure to deliver a Bt200-million rice shipment to Iran.

The defendant, 50-year-old Apichat Chansakunporn, alias Sia Pieng, managing director of President Agri Co Ltd, and a close Thaksin aide, was prosecuted by the Office of the Attorney-General on embezzlement charges.

The court was told they took place during the Yingluck government when his company failed to deliver 20,000 tonnes of 5 per cent broken rice destined for Iran.

The court said the defendant violated the contract signed with the Commerce Ministry and embezzled the rice after his company sold the 20,000 tonnes of rice, which his company was obligated to deliver to Iran, to another country.

As I posted elsewhere, his one corrupt action has had ongoing effects for the country as Iran, previously one of Thailands biggest rice customers, has refused to buy Thai rice ever since.

The present administration are trying to get that market back :

Rice exports to Iran may resume soon

PETCHANET PRATRUANGKRAI

THE NATION

BANGKOK: -- THAILAND is expected to export more rice to Iran soon after that country lifts an import ban imposed three years ago after a Thai exporter defaulted on a rice-shipment contract, the Foreign Trade Department has said.

[robblok]

The charge her lawyer is going to have to defend her against is almost impossible to defend... Criminal Negligence. She can't say... "Yes, I was the head of the government and therefore the head this rice pledging policy. However, I never attended the meetings so I never knew what was happening." What's she gonna do, blame her cabinet? For every finger she points at them a hundred will be pointing back.

What was the response of her government when questioned about the rice pledging scheme? Everything is hunky dory.

She should just be honest and say... "I'm not very bright. I am totally unqualified to read a speech teleprompter, much less lead a nation of 60 million people. I got to where I am because of family connections and nothing more. My understanding of how a Democracy and my own government works is limited to what my brother and the cabinet he told me appoint said. I'm so very sorry... I'm shedding public tears."

For it to be criminal, she has to have broken a law.

When a public servant distributes ANY service for free the government is by definition losing money.

You are talking about criminalising government.

Stupid remark..

The program was not included in the budget, the budget was already at its max deficit. They did not want to include it as that would mean they could not spend as much money as they wanted.

By saying it was self financing it was out of the budget. Total year budget was already at the max. So this only made it worse. It was a LOSS but your comments would have been justified if it was taken into the budget.

She might have broken the law by keeping it out of the budget while knowing better.

[smutcakes]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she was charged with dereliction of duty or something similar, not theft. The truth is she was in charge, there are only 3 ways that can explain such a massive loss on her watch. 1. She knew that there was corruption all along the line and did nothing. 2. She was so negligent that she was unaware of anything. 3. She is stupid

Remember this one thing, about one year before the sh#t hit the fan, her finance minister Kittitrat said that the scheme was not financially sustainable and should be stopped. Was Yingluck aware of that. or was she blissfully ignorant of that as well. You do the people of this country a disservice by defending her, at least her lawyer has an excuse....he is getting paid.

Ramrod,

At what point does a scheme become a loss make to an extent where a PM is punished for dereliction of duty? Is there a financial amount?etc surely its very arbitrary. Is the 40bn pay out by the Junta which is a straight up payment with nothing in return an okay loss? Is the army buying aircraft carriers negligent? what about an order for 2700 kekler hochs etc etc etc the list goes on and on. Okay they are smaller amounts, but at what point does it become okay to take action against a PM?

I am ambivalent as to whether she should be or will be punished, all i would like to see is some clarity and fairness in the application of laws.

As far as I am concerned she was negligent at best. Any other cases that arise would have to be addressed on an individual basis. Without rancor or a wish for confrontation, I would ask you a simple question. If you had stock in a corporation and a loss on such a massive scale took place, there was proof that the CFO had warned the CEO that it was going to happen, and the CEO did nothing to mitigate the loss, who would you hold responsible? Would you stand up at the stockholders meeting and blame the mail room staff? Would you want to see heads roll, or would you be philosophic about your lost money and give the CEO another chance? Please don't give me the ridiculous argument that the scheme was designed to lose money, so it's a massive success.

I am not really sure of the relevance of your question, and how it relates to my post. I am sure if I was an investor i would be baying for blood in the circumstances you portray, but i am sure i would also be baying for blood should the CEO decide to give 40 bn baht away.

That is what I was referring to in my post. Yes, punish her, but why is it okay for the new Govt to throw away 40 bn?, army/police, Govt ministries to chuck money away? Whats the difference?

All i ask is for fair and equitable application of the law. In a land of law breaking and corruption going back since the beginning of time, the only people they seem interested in prosecuting is the Shins. If they went after all people, i am sure people would be less in favor of the shins. There support is boosted by the actions of those trying to bury them.

[Baerboxer]

The follow through of the rice scheme is the big test for the present government. If none of the big shots gets send to prison for long years all will be lost. Corruption in the top then will not be punished as usual. And this after the biggest steal in history. Then the general who started out doing rather well, especially compared to the horrible previous government, will be no real good after all.

So please please please save Thailand. Start the process of really fighting corruption. Lock up lil sis, Tarit, the wino Chalerm and the other top criminals. Then start working on bringing home the missunderstood fugitive, the big bad poisenous spider. Please please please care about the people.

This kind of incoherent post doesn't really merit a response though it's odd that the Yingluck haters appear to be uniformly inarticulate.However my attention was caught by the plea to care about the people.It's worth stressing that the way to achieve that objective is to restore democracy as soon as possible and hold early elections - very much the message that the civilised world had been pressing on the Thai dictatorship.

Indeed. Once the criminal elements have been removed from involvement. No country can or should tolerate a government that allows itself to be dictated to by a non elected criminal fugitive. Or one that seems to condone violence on any who protest against that situation.

[jayboy]

The follow through of the rice scheme is the big test for the present government. If none of the big shots gets send to prison for long years all will be lost. Corruption in the top then will not be punished as usual. And this after the biggest steal in history. Then the general who started out doing rather well, especially compared to the horrible previous government, will be no real good after all.

So please please please save Thailand. Start the process of really fighting corruption. Lock up lil sis, Tarit, the wino Chalerm and the other top criminals. Then start working on bringing home the missunderstood fugitive, the big bad poisenous spider. Please please please care about the people.

This kind of incoherent post doesn't really merit a response though it's odd that the Yingluck haters appear to be uniformly inarticulate.However my attention was caught by the plea to care about the people.It's worth stressing that the way to achieve that objective is to restore democracy as soon as possible and hold early elections - very much the message that the civilised world had been pressing on the Thai dictatorship.

Indeed. Once the criminal elements have been removed from involvement. No country can or should tolerate a government that allows itself to be dictated to by a non elected criminal fugitive. Or one that seems to condone violence on any who protest against that situation.

I presume that by "criminal elements" you refer primarily to Thaksin? The trouble is that by using that term a great many players could also be described as "criminal elements" - for example Abhisit, Suthep,the Thai Army itself just for starters -all accused of crimes arguably more serious than those levied against Thaksin.If you narrow the definition to those found guilty of crimes in a court of law that certainly restricts the field.But even here we know from Wikileaks and other sources that the establishment was desperate to pin something,anything on him.In the event it only managed a relatively trivial case and when Thaksin went into exile (foolishly in my view) it wasn't possible to extradite him because of the clear political motivation involved.The major human right case (drugs war) was never for a second invoked because so many of the establishment were enthusiastic supporters/complicit.The Thai body politic is suffused with criminality - as the saga over the puppet government's asset declarations appears to demonstrate.Furtherrmore if Thaksin is non-elected the parties associated with him have time and time again won the support of Thailand's electorate.Not a mandate for him personally of course but the popular enthusiasm does place him and his party in a different position to the hopeless unelectable Democrats and by a huge measure Suthep's gangster movement and the military takeover it spawned.

[candide]

The "good" General has announced they would sell 500 000 tonnes every month, so it should be sold in 36 months.

Now we have this guy talking about 10 years, in order to be able to put forward a 1 trillion baths figure in the media. I don't know about the other figures quoted, but this one clearly shows it's politically motivated.

I am always enlighted by the ability of Thai people to make contradictory or incoherent statements, even if they are on the same political side (well, they even contradict themselves over time... )

[Robby nz]

The "good" General has announced they would sell 500 000 tonnes every month, so it should be sold in 36 months.

Now we have this guy talking about 10 years, in order to be able to put forward a 1 trillion baths figure in the media. I don't know about the other figures quoted, but this one clearly shows it's politically motivated.

I am always enlighted by the ability of Thai people to make contradictory or incoherent statements, even if they are on the same political side (well, they even contradict themselves over time... )

Link please.

If not then just another lot of bull.