Youths admit cheating at an early age, and many don't think it's bad, study finds

[rametindallas]

Having been involved in education in Thailand for quite a while, I can confirm that a huge % of students cheat. But when I worked in other countries a large % also cheated. Young people's brains develop slowly and a lot of that moral compass that guides us as adults simply is not well enough developed. Take a look at how young people are influenced by peer pressure. So the fact that kids cheat, and do lots of other bad things is not surprising.

What is surprising is the attitude of teachers, parents and those in responsible positions to it. In order for them to develop a sense of honesty, it has to be reinforced. Sadly, in Thailand it usually isn't.

Young people's brains develop slowly. You sure about that?

Generally, in most developed countries children LEARN to lie at circa aged 6 to 7, and it is individualistic and not peer pressured. They simply push unexplored boundaries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wSfbKwWSaY

As is observed, it is a passing test to be ready for the 'adult world', yet it generally stops very soon as lying is discovered, and embarassment sets in.

Also, as you correctly observe, the reinforcement of honesty is rarely followed, because parental guidance is misconstrued with lies and corruption - and that is where the difference lies.

However, I have to contest your obs that young people's brains develop slowly - you know that we learn 90% of what we will ever know before the age of 8 - the last 10% is definining it into what we become honed in to.

Denial, at the highest level (short and funny)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5vMPY0o70g

Children have to be taught it is wrong to lie and that the negative consequences of lying are not dependent on getting caught in the lie. By puberty, it is too late. I have met people who will lie even when the truth is a better story. Most politicians and lawyers are successful because of their skill at lying as are confidence men/women. The study is probably skewed to reflect a lower percentage of cheating because many of the respondents probably lied when they said they didn't cheat. It seems to be acceptable to lie in this culture as there are few, if any, penalties for lying. Lying, cheating, and stealing are fingers on the same hand.

[Oryx816]

There is no accountability for cheating, corruption or general deception. When kids are brought up seeing people climb to the top by any means possible and they earn respect, money and power....honesty is the last thing on their minds.

Years ago before I lived here I was once given too much change at a restaurant. I noticed as I was getting in the tuk tuk so I went back in and returned the money. The tuk tuk driver laughed and asked me why did I go back. I told him, it isn't mine, and this cashier could get in trouble and held responsible. He looked thoughtful for a moment, and then remarked, "but that is her problem!" I replied, "but it is my karma that is affected, she made a mistake, if I notice and keep it, it isn't a mistake for me, it is a decision to do something wrong."

He was quiet the rest of the way.....either contemplating what I said or contemplating what complete morons farangs are.

[Neeranam]

There is no accountability for cheating, corruption or general deception. When kids are brought up seeing people climb to the top by any means possible and they earn respect, money and power....honesty is the last thing on their minds.

Years ago before I lived here I was once given too much change at a restaurant. I noticed as I was getting in the tuk tuk so I went back in and returned the money. The tuk tuk driver laughed and asked me why did I go back. I told him, it isn't mine, and this cashier could get in trouble and held responsible. He looked thoughtful for a moment, and then remarked, "but that is her problem!" I replied, "but it is my karma that is affected, she made a mistake, if I notice and keep it, it isn't a mistake for me, it is a decision to do something wrong."

He was quiet the rest of the way.....either contemplating what I said or contemplating what complete morons farangs are.

So you base the entire Thai population on the morality of a Tuk Tuk driver, who probably didn't even understand all your moral speech?

Unbelievable - Thai kids are taught morality and ethics intensively at school. Religion is also taught, which includes karma.

Most Thai bashers are looking at/judging "Thai society" from a bar stool in Pattaya or Patong. They have a totally warped view. Learn the language, integrate and you'll see a totally different culture.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

"sprouts at an early age" .....

Yesterday morning the missus was teaching some Anuban 3 kids for extra classes on a Saturday morning. She asked me to whip up a work sheet for practicing the writing of Thai and Arabic numerals and Thai and English numbers in words.

I printed these out in 4 columns, with 4 blank columns for the students themselves to write in .... just initial an practice in physically writing the numbers and words, no need to really think that hard at all.

Fully half the kids were peering across at their neighbours work and copying what they were writing ... when the answer was already on the left hand side of their own page.

Firstly, few people understand the difference between numerals and numbers.

Secondly, are you really trying to say that this is a Thai thing and kids that age in another country wouldn't do the same?

Thirdly, what did you or your wife do?

[cup-O-coffee]

I believe the question is, "Who?", and I believe the answer is, "Dad!".

The highest calling in this life, I believe, is to be a Dad. It is not for the faint-hearted.

The focus of these continuous articles would seem to want to dupe us into believing that without anyone else but Dad, then the children would be vulnerable.

It is the other way around, in my view.

Teachers, preachers, policemen, judges, social workers, sports figures, politicians and all that sort were not always around in the old times.

Dad was.

There was a time when things were simple. "Just ask Dad" was a fond saying. Dad kept things going. Dad always seemed to have the shoulders to bear the burden when things got tough. Sons admired their fathers and strove to be like them. Daughters looked for future husbands, who bore the characteristics of the first man they developed a healthy love and respect for.

Good 'ole Dad. When problems arose, they fell at Dad's feet. Dad took the burden and blame; or... the successes and glory.

When a child is born, Dad is sensed as God (A warm, loving presence just out of the consciousness, yet that which brings on a sense of security and well-being when that voice is heard). As the child develops and his or her consciousness increases, Dad becomes King (A loving yet firm ruler). As time progresses, and the child develops more of his or her father's characteristics, Dad's influence and role is eased to that of team-leader, because the children become more mature and able to deal with the knowledge that Dad had transferred into their character. They respect his word and wisdom, as well as his ability to say, "I don't know, but let's find out together." And finally, when the children are suited to be independent, Dad's role has been joyfully transformed to that of best friend and first mate until the day he passes on. "I don't know. I'll call Dad." was the way things were done before murder, lying, cheating and corruption ran amok.

"Civilization" has killed Dad, and is now reaping the harvest. Civilization no longer fears Dad. Even the definition of Dad has become diluted to a worthless meaning, and more or less a laughable interpretation. "Civilization" has pushed Dad out of the house and into a "singles" flat, or worse. There is no room for a Dad in the minds of this "New and Improved Civilization"; this civilization of entitlement.

I do not believe that this is a mistake of evolution, and moreover a contrivance of those who fear a genuine Dad, and do not want free-thinking, courageous and honorable Dads keeping a proper charge of their personal responsibilities, duties and obligations, as well as those of others: namely their children (future Dad's and Moms).

If there is any lying and cheating going on here, then it is lying and cheating about the truths, and refusing to address the truths for want of greedy agendas.

Simply ask any child, "What would your Dad say?", and the subsequent reaction is your answer to the problem.

There was a time when asking that question brought about swift attention and intense focus.

Not anymore, and that, indeed, is quite apparent. That question alone is no longer asked, as it is not a desirable part of the agenda. Civilization does not want Dad's input for the rearing of the new, entitled generation. I was not asked before this time for fear of what Dad might say to those in charge of his children. Now it is no longer asked simply because Dad is more or less a nuisance to the agenda: turn 'em into mindless drones... charges of the state.

Well. Sad to say the agenda has succeeded.

Sad to say... Dad has become a Myth of Legends, and hence the answers to society's problems as well: Myths of Legends.

Edited November 10, 2014 by cup-O-coffee

[Oryx816]

There is no accountability for cheating, corruption or general deception. When kids are brought up seeing people climb to the top by any means possible and they earn respect, money and power....honesty is the last thing on their minds.

Years ago before I lived here I was once given too much change at a restaurant. I noticed as I was getting in the tuk tuk so I went back in and returned the money. The tuk tuk driver laughed and asked me why did I go back. I told him, it isn't mine, and this cashier could get in trouble and held responsible. He looked thoughtful for a moment, and then remarked, "but that is her problem!" I replied, "but it is my karma that is affected, she made a mistake, if I notice and keep it, it isn't a mistake for me, it is a decision to do something wrong."

He was quiet the rest of the way.....either contemplating what I said or contemplating what complete morons farangs are.

So you base the entire Thai population on the morality of a Tuk Tuk driver, who probably didn't even understand all your moral speech?

Unbelievable - Thai kids are taught morality and ethics intensively at school. Religion is also taught, which includes karma.

Most Thai bashers are looking at/judging "Thai society" from a bar stool in Pattaya or Patong. They have a totally warped view. Learn the language, integrate and you'll see a totally different culture.

Whoa, Nellie! Get down off your high horse, give it a sugar cube, and let me dispel your assumptions.

First off, I gave an example, trying to indicate perspective, and how the world is full of varying perspectives. Further, the tuk tuk driver in question is someone I have hired many times over the years for small errands involving money and I have left valuables in his possession without incident, and this conversation did not change that, nor my belief that he is GENERALLY honest. My point was that honesty exists in shades of grey, particularly when there is underdevelopment and poverty in the equation.

Is there accountability in this country? Hardly. How often do people high up in society get away with murder and other abhorrent crimes? Two words....Red Bull.

Children learn from the examples they see from adults. If what they are taught isn't put into practice by the adults and society around them, it impacts their world view. The tuk tuk driver in question also attended school and learned these lessons. Would he steal something outright? From my experience I doubt it. Would he cheat to get ahead? Maybe. I don't know. The point is, throughout the world, the definition of honesty is not always the same. Extra change? Lucky me! Cheating? Who's going to know or get hurt? No one, so it is ok. Stealing from someone's home or bag? Hey, no way, that is wrong! I feel strongly that if there were more social and legal accountability, and repercussions for dishonesty, cheating, etc., then yes, people would think twice, and think more deeply about honesty.

Integrity isn't something you learn at school by the way, it is learned from observation. For example, if a child sees the attitude towards someone who is cheated is "som nom na", and if you get away with something then it is "mai pen lai" there is social reinforcement that if you are cheated you are a sucker, and if you get away with it, you are the victor. That isn't taught in school, it comes from social consensus.

If at school they teach that "stealing from someone is wrong", without context or discussion (which is generally lacking in schools here), then it can be interpreted in a very black and white way. Stories abound of the western farang male who gets taken for all he's worth....the response can be, "but he gave it to me, I didn't steal it." Does it make it right? To most people it isn't right, to some, it just isn't wrong because it isn't outright theft.

I am neither a basher nor an apologist for Thais nor any other nationality including my own. So put your judgment of me away as you just painted me and other expats with the very broad brush you accused me of using. I don't sit on bar stools as I don't even consume alcohol, I don't live in the places mentioned, I get by in Thai, and I have an abundance of educated Thai friends cultivated through my over 22 years of coming here and living here. I even celebrate Thanksgiving, an American holiday, with Thais. So don't condescend to me and tell me to integrate.

FYI, bar stool warmers are also part of society and entitled to their opinion. And just because someone is a tuk tuk driver doesn't mean he isn't counted as part of society either, or that his morality is immediately suspect. He is even entitled to think that farangs are morons, or that just this farang is a moron, and I am entitled to make a joke about it.....it's really okay to have an opinion.

You have your opinion and I have mine, and we each have our shades of grey that come into play dependent on circumstances and conditions.

Now please trot off on your high horse and patrol Thaivisa where you will find many posts to tickle your irascible sensibilities.

[oztaurus]

"sprouts at an early age" .....

Yesterday morning the missus was teaching some Anuban 3 kids for extra classes on a Saturday morning. She asked me to whip up a work sheet for practicing the writing of Thai and Arabic numerals and Thai and English numbers in words.

I printed these out in 4 columns, with 4 blank columns for the students themselves to write in .... just initial an practice in physically writing the numbers and words, no need to really think that hard at all.

Fully half the kids were peering across at their neighbours work and copying what they were writing ... when the answer was already on the left hand side of their own page.

Firstly, few people understand the difference between numerals and numbers.

Secondly, are you really trying to say that this is a Thai thing and kids that age in another country wouldn't do the same?

Thirdly, what did you or your wife do?

Firstly: - agreed! Basic numeracy needs to go beyond even that towards understanding the concepts of quantity and I have not even seen that attempted here. Concepts like; more than / less than; bigger than / smaller than; further than / closer than etc should be foundational, yet I see kids struggling to recognise these even at older ages.

Secondly: My only experience of education from the front of the room is in Thailand, so I have no valid reference point to comment on the educational systems of other countries. Not a Thai bash by any means, just a comment that I was surprised to see that when the exercise was "copy from here to there" (just to have practice in writing the words and begin associating the unfamiliar with the familiar) they tried to copy from their friends instead.

Thirdly: I pointed out to one of the students that his friend might be wrong (there is one girl in the class who is mildly dyslexic - reversing her 3's, 7's and e's, though she is one of the more advanced students so the others wait for her to answer, then quickly echo her when asked a question). we also moved the chairs a little further apart.

[Bluespunk]

Have a read of the Indian students perspective on cheating on the BBC website.

Makes the Thai attitude seem reasonable in comparison.

[Mr Somtam]

Well, what to say? When the role models are corrupt or missing, this is the end result.

I think if the Highest Person in Thailand would tell them to be more responsible (especially on the roads) that it will work. I always thought that buddhist are responsible people who won't harm eachother.

Also those minibuses from the big (expensive) schools should drive more responsible, all the kids sit hours in those buses and start thinking that driving like that is the normal way to drive.

I think being a Thai trumps being a Buddhist on most occasions. They have a number of Buddhist traits, but seem to cherry pick the ones that they like and sit well with them. No vice and gambling? ...hmmm....

They lie, drink, smoke, eat meat, are corrupt and then go to the wat for the lucky Numbers (luang por blinked 6 times...)

That must be what gautama tried to teach his followers! 555 only real buddhists here live in the forest monasteries, wat pah Pong, nanachat fi

[Neeranam]

There is no accountability for cheating, corruption or general deception. When kids are brought up seeing people climb to the top by any means possible and they earn respect, money and power....honesty is the last thing on their minds.

Years ago before I lived here I was once given too much change at a restaurant. I noticed as I was getting in the tuk tuk so I went back in and returned the money. The tuk tuk driver laughed and asked me why did I go back. I told him, it isn't mine, and this cashier could get in trouble and held responsible. He looked thoughtful for a moment, and then remarked, "but that is her problem!" I replied, "but it is my karma that is affected, she made a mistake, if I notice and keep it, it isn't a mistake for me, it is a decision to do something wrong."

He was quiet the rest of the way.....either contemplating what I said or contemplating what complete morons farangs are.

So you base the entire Thai population on the morality of a Tuk Tuk driver, who probably didn't even understand all your moral speech?

Unbelievable - Thai kids are taught morality and ethics intensively at school. Religion is also taught, which includes karma.

Most Thai bashers are looking at/judging "Thai society" from a bar stool in Pattaya or Patong. They have a totally warped view. Learn the language, integrate and you'll see a totally different culture.

drivel omitted

I am neither a basher nor an apologist for Thais nor any other nationality including my own. So put your judgment of me away as you just painted me and other expats with the very broad brush you accused me of using. I don't sit on bar stools as I don't even consume alcohol, I don't live in the places mentioned, I get by in Thai, and I have an abundance of educated Thai friends cultivated through my over 22 years of coming here and living here. I even celebrate Thanksgiving, an American holiday, with Thais. So don't condescend to me and tell me to integrate.

So there are some educated 'decent' Thais but they have to be cultivated 22 years and you "get by" in Thai? - hardly integration if you ask me. In 22 years living here, you are the first Yank that I've ever heard of with an abundance of Thai friends, and educated to boot. Is "honesty the last thing on their minds"? Is your gf Thai/Chinese?

I hope you don't mean you celebrate Thanksgiving in Thailand. Do your Thai friends know the truth behind the Thanksgiving thing? http://www.manataka.org/page269.html

Edited November 10, 2014 by Neeranam

[Oryx816]

There is no accountability for cheating, corruption or general deception. When kids are brought up seeing people climb to the top by any means possible and they earn respect, money and power....honesty is the last thing on their minds.

Years ago before I lived here I was once given too much change at a restaurant. I noticed as I was getting in the tuk tuk so I went back in and returned the money. The tuk tuk driver laughed and asked me why did I go back. I told him, it isn't mine, and this cashier could get in trouble and held responsible. He looked thoughtful for a moment, and then remarked, "but that is her problem!" I replied, "but it is my karma that is affected, she made a mistake, if I notice and keep it, it isn't a mistake for me, it is a decision to do something wrong."

He was quiet the rest of the way.....either contemplating what I said or contemplating what complete morons farangs are.

So you base the entire Thai population on the morality of a Tuk Tuk driver, who probably didn't even understand all your moral speech?

Unbelievable - Thai kids are taught morality and ethics intensively at school. Religion is also taught, which includes karma.

Most Thai bashers are looking at/judging "Thai society" from a bar stool in Pattaya or Patong. They have a totally warped view. Learn the language, integrate and you'll see a totally different culture.

drivel omitted

I am neither a basher nor an apologist for Thais nor any other nationality including my own. So put your judgment of me away as you just painted me and other expats with the very broad brush you accused me of using. I don't sit on bar stools as I don't even consume alcohol, I don't live in the places mentioned, I get by in Thai, and I have an abundance of educated Thai friends cultivated through my over 22 years of coming here and living here. I even celebrate Thanksgiving, an American holiday, with Thais. So don't condescend to me and tell me to integrate.

So there are some educated 'decent' Thais but they have to be cultivated 22 years and you "get by" in Thai? - hardly integration if you ask me. In 22 years living here, you are the first Yank that I've ever heard of with an abundance of Thai friends, and educated to boot. Is "honesty the last thing on their minds"? Is your gf Thai/Chinese?

I hope you don't mean you celebrate Thanksgiving in Thailand. Do your Thai friends know the truth behind the Thanksgiving thing? http://www.manataka.org/page269.html

This is my final response as you clearly lack reading comprehension skills.

Firstly, you inserted the term "decent" not me. Cultivated in this context means developed. Yes, friendships are developed through the years, a drink at a bar together does not constitute a friendship in my estimation. I didn't say I lived here for 22 years, again, your reading comprehension is lacking...you only get a pass on this if you are not a native English speaker.

Since I am not a lesbian, I don't have a girlfriend, but I do have a "Yank" husband. I have seen Americans with friends of all nationalities here, so I don't know why you are so surprised that I have Thai friends. An Emirati friend and a Yemeni friend visited us just last year here, and I am having lunch with a friend from Burundi later this week, so yes, I have friends from many places, not just Thai and not just American. Again, astounding assumptions on your part.

I was too busy focusing on Chinese and Indonesian (which I needed to make a living) to work on my Thai, which I did not need in any capacity until I made a permanent move here. And since I live in a city and not in Nakorn nowhere, I can take my time, as there are people who speak English here.

Lastly, I see you are not American, so you cannot fully appreciate Thanksgiving, and you aren't very discriminating in your sources of information, since you cited a Native American website, hardly impartial either. Just to elucidate you, Thanksgiving as a concept was celebrated in the New World as early as the 1500s by the Spanish. Quite frankly, most holidays don't resemble their initial historical counterparts.

The historical debate notwithstanding, the majority of Americans enjoy spending a day with their families and friends and taking a moment to reflect upon how grateful we are and should continue to be for all that we have. I personally, think it is important to do this daily, and to share it with friends and family once a year makes for a very special day indeed. That is the Thanksgiving I choose to celebrate.

Take care.

[Neeranam]

This is my final response as you clearly lack reading comprehension skills.

Firstly, you inserted the term "decent" not me. Cultivated in this context means developed. Yes, friendships are developed through the years, a drink at a bar together does not constitute a friendship in my estimation. I didn't say I lived here for 22 years, again, your reading comprehension is lacking...you only get a pass on this if you are not a native English speaker.

Try reading what I wrote again - who do you think has been living here 22 years?

Nothing wrong with my reading comprehension.

[Smurkster]

There is no accountability for cheating, corruption or general deception. When kids are brought up seeing people climb to the top by any means possible and they earn respect, money and power....honesty is the last thing on their minds.

Years ago before I lived here I was once given too much change at a restaurant. I noticed as I was getting in the tuk tuk so I went back in and returned the money. The tuk tuk driver laughed and asked me why did I go back. I told him, it isn't mine, and this cashier could get in trouble and held responsible. He looked thoughtful for a moment, and then remarked, "but that is her problem!" I replied, "but it is my karma that is affected, she made a mistake, if I notice and keep it, it isn't a mistake for me, it is a decision to do something wrong."

He was quiet the rest of the way.....either contemplating what I said or contemplating what complete morons farangs are.

So you base the entire Thai population on the morality of a Tuk Tuk driver, who probably didn't even understand all your moral speech?

Unbelievable - Thai kids are taught morality and ethics intensively at school. Religion is also taught, which includes karma.

Most Thai bashers are looking at/judging "Thai society" from a bar stool in Pattaya or Patong. They have a totally warped view. Learn the language, integrate and you'll see a totally different culture.

Learning Thai, "integrating" and living an existence here other than from a bar stool in Pattaya or Patong isn't going to necessarily show you a completely different culture and side of Thailand that you hadn't seen before, in fact it might just make things worse...not all people who speak their mind about what they see here, amongst the native population(even if what they are speaking of mind be completely negative) are uneducated and uniformed about how things "truly are" here...infact, in many cases, their seasoned knowledge and understanding (ok, one can never FULLY understand this place) are what have caused them to draw conclusions or perceive things in a certain light here...

and being taught morality at school? I'm curious as to where that notion comes from, honestly, I am not challenging said notion, but I'd like to know in what context they learn morality? By studying buddhism and as you say Karma??

[Smurkster]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

There is no accountability for cheating, corruption or general deception.

Sometimes here in Thailand, I go looking for my three friends: Accountability, Common Sense and Foresight... I will tell you what, they have this joint cased and are really good at hiding out and avoiding people here

[boomerangutang]

It reminds me of when Thaksin's son was caught cheating on an exam. T was PM at the time. The son was facing having to re-do the entire year. T told the U superintendent woman to go easy on his boy. The next day, the superintendent announced that cheating, in Thailand, is so common, that it's essentially acceptable. The boy was excused.

Thaksin himself was a great role-model. Right after being convicted of a crime, he wanted to split from Thailand to go see the Beijing Olympics. He promised officials he would come right back to Thailand. Of course, he didn't.

[Smurkster]

It reminds me of when Thaksin's son was caught cheating on an exam. T was PM at the time. The son was facing having to re-do the entire year. T told the U superintendent woman to go easy on his boy. The next day, the superintendent announced that cheating, in Thailand, is so common, that it's essentially acceptable. The boy was excused.

Thaksin himself was a great role-model. Right after being convicted of a crime, he wanted to split from Thailand to go see the Beijing Olympics. He promised officials he would come right back to Thailand. Of course, he didn't.

somehow the topic was guaranteed to come back to "T"

Edited November 10, 2014 by Smurkster

[Fatty123]

This is my final response as you clearly lack reading comprehension skills.

Firstly, you inserted the term "decent" not me. Cultivated in this context means developed. Yes, friendships are developed through the years, a drink at a bar together does not constitute a friendship in my estimation. I didn't say I lived here for 22 years, again, your reading comprehension is lacking...you only get a pass on this if you are not a native English speaker.

Try reading what I wrote again - who do you think has been living here 22 years?

Nothing wrong with my reading comprehension.

Maybe. But there's something wrong with your attitude. Do you speak to people like this in real life? Thought not.

[MexicanFarang]

"The highest calling in this life, I believe, is to be a Dad."

Pretty low bar. It's been done by literally billions of men in the world...

[benalibina]

Having been involved in education in Thailand for quite a while, I can confirm that a huge % of students cheat. But when I worked in other countries a large % also cheated. Young people's brains develop slowly and a lot of that moral compass that guides us as adults simply is not well enough developed. Take a look at how young people are influenced by peer pressure. So the fact that kids cheat, and do lots of other bad things is not surprising.

What is surprising is the attitude of teachers, parents and those in responsible positions to it. In order for them to develop a sense of honesty, it has to be reinforced. Sadly, in Thailand it usually isn't.

Very good comment. Many of us on here have cheated, or tried to, when doing tests or exams at school. We however accepted the consequences, when caught, and for sure would not tell our parents about it.

Honesty is a very expensive gift.....do not expect it from cheap people.