Hospital in Bangkok clarifies 'ban' on pregnant employees

[IAMSOBAD]

Third world Thailand. How do these idiots become supervisors?

[IAMSOBAD]

Do we need anymore evidence of just how far behind the rest of the World this country is?

Truly astonishing that this could even be thought up yet alone make it to print.

And Thailand want to be the leading country in the Asean,,,, oh dear.

And the lemmings signed it.

[Soutpeel]

This story is also running in Daily Mail, another good publicity day for Thailand

[ClutchClark]

In response to the controversy, Rajavithi Hospital director Udom Chaowarin said he has cancelled the order, which only applied to one department. It was never endorsed as an official policy by the hospital directors, he said.

So why did he or his subordinate issue this illegal order? Whoever is responsible resign immediately please.

Have you ever asked your employer for vacation time and had the request denied ?

I keep asking this question of all the folks who think this manager should be punished beyond all reasonable measure and yet no one will respond.

[Bluespunk]

This story is also running in Daily Mail, another good publicity day for Thailand

You know I get the feeling the folks at the daily mail just don't like Thailand........

[Jonmarleesco]

'... the supervisor ... was worried that too many pregnancies at the same time would cause a labour shortage.' I should have expected it to create overtime, a power outage ... and an excess of labour.

[ClutchClark]

Call me old fashioned but I remember way back in the day when people were lucky to have work and when they accepted an offer of employment they were agreeing that the needs of the workplace would take priority over their own personal needs.

If the boss said he needed people to work OverTime, they did so and felt lucky to make the extra income. When the boss said work a weekend we again put the employer first. After all, we wanted the company to succeed so that we would have the money to raise a family.

Nowadays, its a very different world. Employees now expect their employer to cater to their needs and priorities. They fully expect the employer to make accommodations for said employees to take several months off of work for maternity leave with zero consideration how this impacts the company. Back in the day, if someone wanted to take extended time off for any reason then they would typically be given the opportunity to quit and possibly get re-hired when they were ready to make employment their priority again. They may have even been granted leave but the idea that they should continue to receive a daily wage would have been out of the question since it would be thoroughly unfair for all the other employees who were forced to work for their wage. Maternity leave continues to do just that--it creates special treatment for one sex that is not offered to the other--its called discrimination. It even discriminates within the same sex by rewarding women who want to have a baby but punishing women who choose not to or are unable to do to reproductive health, age or personal choice.

I have asked several times if any posters have ever requested a vacation and been told the dates requested were not in the interests of the employer and to choose new dates. No one has responded. I have a hunch because they know very well such demands are commonplace from a manager and that this entire OP is not very different from that. Had the manager been a bit more sophisticated, he would have simply worded this note to include "No time off except for illness."

But I realize I am old-school. I am so old-school that I am leaving Thailand and returning home just so that I can start working again. I miss it. I don't need the money--I just miss the personal reward of working.

[mrtoad]

What a farce, the [person responsible for this idiotic order should be fired, and most certainly not allowed to work in any hospital.

[ClutchClark]

What a farce, the [person responsible for this idiotic order should be fired, and most certainly not allowed to work in any hospital.

Yeah, lets end his livelihood and prevent him from finding other income in his profession. Thats not over-reacting.

Yeah, sure we have no idea how long he has worked there or what his past record of employment has been. He might have been voted most popular manager of the year, he might have saved countless peoples' lives, but none of that matters.

Lets impulsively over-react and punish this person to the most extreme level we can.

Why? Well because we are such compassionate human beings, ofcourse.

BTW, is there any way we can make his offspring suffer as well? It doesn't seem enough to just severely destroy this one managers life.

[kannot]

Not uncommon in Thailand some people to speak with their a$$e and not with their mouth.

If this had happened in Europe, the guy would have been dismissed immediately.

But this is Thailand...............

If this was written by a male, he should be castrated, preferable with a rusty penknife and two bricks.

And if a female she should be sterilised and have any kids she has taken of her.

Id say leave out the penknife!

[Basil B]

He said the division head might have been under stress because many staff members were pregnant, and hence had asked for cooperation for all women to take birth control.

Maybe time for the purchasing department too look at where they are buying their pharmaceuticals...

http://www.who.int/medicines/services/counterfeit/impact/ImpactF_S/en/index1.html

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26740

http://www.bluesci.org/?p=11082

Edited November 11, 2014 by Basil B

[Soutpeel]

This story is also running in Daily Mail, another good publicity day for Thailand

You know I get the feeling the folks at the daily mail just don't like Thailand........

I don't think its a case of dislike per se, but typically the types of stories that come out of Thailand are usually of the type they like to report ie sensationalist, tabloid stuff.

[Morakot]

Wow, I mean, just wow.

What century is this again?

Heard similar stories, where directors suggested "people" should "coordinate" their pregnancies so not everyone will be on leave at the same time. It wasn't an idiotic note like this this, but more like an informally voiced concern at the staff lunch.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Morakot

[mrtoad]

What a farce, the [person responsible for this idiotic order should be fired, and most certainly not allowed to work in any hospital.

Yeah, lets end his livelihood and prevent him from finding other income in his profession. Thats not over-reacting.

Yeah, sure we have no idea how long he has worked there or what his past record of employment has been. He might have been voted most popular manager of the year, he might have saved countless peoples' lives, but none of that matters.

Lets impulsively over-react and punish this person to the most extreme level we can.

Why? Well because we are such compassionate human beings, ofcourse.

BTW, is there any way we can make his offspring suffer as well? It doesn't seem enough to just severely destroy this one managers life.

You really haven't got a clue have you?

Sorry, I have worked in Healthcare Management for the past 20 years - there is no place for dated dinosaurs like this end of. Has to be one of the stupidest orders ever given, and certainly not one that would be expected of a senior manager. Managers are paid to make decisions, and take the rap when they make wrong ones.

He would certainly have been fired back in the UK for that without a doubt.

As for the rest of your diatribe it is totally irrelevant, but fairly typical of your posturing.

[DennisF]

You think this manager is evil?

When I was a Manager I used to tell staff when and when they couldn't take vacations based on the needs of the organization.

Yes, its true. I used to tell both men AND women when they could request time off and I even sent out memos stating there will be no vacation leave allowed during such and such months.

Let the stoning begin.

If thats evil I must be the devil incarnate!!

As a former employer of many, I did the same think... and some even worse.. I stopped pay if they went on a sickie!!

Day off before or after a public holiday... no pay for holiday as was sick and sickness benefit rules applied... etc..etc..

[Monkorn]

You think this manager is evil?

When I was a Manager I used to tell staff when and when they couldn't take vacations based on the needs of the organization.

Yes, its true. I used to tell both men AND women when they could request time off and I even sent out memos stating there will be no vacation leave allowed during such and such months.

No, but I don't find him to be the sharpest tool in the shed either.

I agree completely about vacation time, but that's not what we're talking about here. Competent management understands this difference and plans for it accordingly.

Insinuating that vacation time and maternity leave are the same thing is misguided and distorting the facts at hand. I can't speak about Thailand, but to your previous comment about American women getting months off of paid maternity leave, you're generalizing an anomaly. Most receive unpaid leave or schedule their vacation around the time of birth. At best, that's the only link between expectant parents and vacation time. Vacation time is a request whereas maternity leave isn't, consider the latter a right that doesn't need company permission if the employee falls within the stated protocol.

[smileydude]

Knee-jerk reaction resulting from frustration and lack of proper oxygen supply to brain or perhaps the lacking of a brain itself.

Social media has in a good way made us more accountable for our actions.

Edited November 11, 2014 by smileydude

[ClutchClark]

What a farce, the [person responsible for this idiotic order should be fired, and most certainly not allowed to work in any hospital.

Yeah, lets end his livelihood and prevent him from finding other income in his profession. Thats not over-reacting.

Yeah, sure we have no idea how long he has worked there or what his past record of employment has been. He might have been voted most popular manager of the year, he might have saved countless peoples' lives, but none of that matters.

Lets impulsively over-react and punish this person to the most extreme level we can.

Why? Well because we are such compassionate human beings, ofcourse.

BTW, is there any way we can make his offspring suffer as well? It doesn't seem enough to just severely destroy this one managers life.

You really haven't got a clue have you?

Sorry, I have worked in Healthcare Management for the past 20 years - there is no place for dated dinosaurs like this end of. Has to be one of the stupidest orders ever given, and certainly not one that would be expected of a senior manager. Managers are paid to make decisions, and take the rap when they make wrong ones.

He would certainly have been fired back in the UK for that without a doubt.

As for the rest of your diatribe it is totally irrelevant, but fairly typical of your posturing.

I see you still lack communication skills and resort to your usual negativity and name-calling rather than provide persuasive counterpoint. I have yet to ever read a thought provoking post by you. Its always just an over-reacting sky is falling thailand is terrible mantra.

Once again, you still fail to respond to the question and instead play it off as inconsequential simply because you are at a loss to defend your lame argument.

BTW, this is Thailand--its not your "back home". You seem to often suffer confusion in that regard.

Edited November 11, 2014 by ClutchClark

[ClutchClark]

You think this manager is evil?

When I was a Manager I used to tell staff when and when they couldn't take vacations based on the needs of the organization.

Yes, its true. I used to tell both men AND women when they could request time off and I even sent out memos stating there will be no vacation leave allowed during such and such months.

No, but I don't find him to be the sharpest tool in the shed either.

I agree completely about vacation time, but that's not what we're talking about here. Competent management understands this difference and plans for it accordingly.

Insinuating that vacation time and maternity leave are the same thing is misguided and distorting the facts at hand. I can't speak about Thailand, but to your previous comment about American women getting months off of paid maternity leave, you're generalizing an anomaly. Most receive unpaid leave or schedule their vacation around the time of birth. At best, that's the only link between expectant parents and vacation time. Vacation time is a request whereas maternity leave isn't, consider the latter a right that doesn't need company permission if the employee falls within the stated protocol.

Thanks for actually engaging in a dialogue, I appreciate it. And you didn't call me any names ;-)

Fully agree he is not the sharpest tool in the shed. I do consider context though, in that the US and the developed world has adjusted to women in the workplace over the past 40 years and legislation and sensitivity training has had an opportunity to develop along with the changes. In Thailand, they have only just started adjusting to the Western habits with globalization. These things cannot be learned overnight.

No distortion though, maternity leave is a request by an employee for personal leave. In a fair society, the reason personal leave is granted should not be based on gender.

You did further the subject when you mentioned, "most receive unpaid leave or schedule their vacation around time of birth". In other words, it is often considered vacation time. Furthermore, I personally think if a woman wants to have a child and her absence will place an undue burden on the employer then the woman has the right to quit--just like a man should have the right to quit if his priorities change. You see, I support "equality" and not preferential treatment based on gender, or its ugly step sister " gender discrimination".

On a sidenote, American women do seem to frequently "plan" for their pregnancies. Do you know if this is the same for Thai women? Family Planning? Any insight appreciated.

Again, thanks.

[mrtoad]

What a farce, the [person responsible for this idiotic order should be fired, and most certainly not allowed to work in any hospital.

Yeah, lets end his livelihood and prevent him from finding other income in his profession. Thats not over-reacting.

Yeah, sure we have no idea how long he has worked there or what his past record of employment has been. He might have been voted most popular manager of the year, he might have saved countless peoples' lives, but none of that matters.

Lets impulsively over-react and punish this person to the most extreme level we can.

Why? Well because we are such compassionate human beings, ofcourse.

BTW, is there any way we can make his offspring suffer as well? It doesn't seem enough to just severely destroy this one managers life.

You really haven't got a clue have you?

Sorry, I have worked in Healthcare Management for the past 20 years - there is no place for dated dinosaurs like this end of. Has to be one of the stupidest orders ever given, and certainly not one that would be expected of a senior manager. Managers are paid to make decisions, and take the rap when they make wrong ones.

He would certainly have been fired back in the UK for that without a doubt.

As for the rest of your diatribe it is totally irrelevant, but fairly typical of your posturing.

I have yet to ever read a thought provoking post by you. Its always just an over-reacting sky is falling thailand is terrible mantra.

You still fail to respond to the question and instead play it off as inconsequential simply because you are at a loss to defend your lame argument.

BTW, this is Thailand--its not your "back home". You seem to often suffer confusion in that regard.

Clearly you misread.

I do not for one moment think the sky is falling. I certainly ain't a Thailand basher.

You could start an argument with yourself.

As for the manager it pretty much contravenes employment law anyhow, but i am sure you are an expert on Thai labor laws as everything else. Ive only spent 10 years here working so i bow down to your superiority.

Edited November 11, 2014 by mrtoad

[Soutpeel]

BTW, this is Thailand--its not your "back home". You seem to often suffer confusion in that regard.

funny that

you are always bleating on about "back home" in your posts in fact in your follow up to this post, you do it twice there...

pots and kettles and all...Clutchy boy

[ClutchClark]

What a farce, the [person responsible for this idiotic order should be fired, and most certainly not allowed to work in any hospital.

You really haven't got a clue have you?

Sorry, I have worked in Healthcare Management for the past 20 years - there is no place for dated dinosaurs like this end of. Has to be one of the stupidest orders ever given, and certainly not one that would be expected of a senior manager. Managers are paid to make decisions, and take the rap when they make wrong ones.

He would certainly have been fired back in the UK for that without a doubt.

As for the rest of your diatribe it is totally irrelevant, but fairly typical of your posturing.

I have yet to ever read a thought provoking post by you. Its always just an over-reacting sky is falling thailand is terrible mantra.

You still fail to respond to the question and instead play it off as inconsequential simply because you are at a loss to defend your lame argument.

BTW, this is Thailand--its not your "back home". You seem to often suffer confusion in that regard.

Clearly you misread.

I do not for one moment think the sky is falling. I certainly ain't a Thailand basher.

You could start an argument with yourself.

As for the manager it pretty much contravenes employment law anyhow, but i am sure you are an expert on Thai labor laws as everything else. Ive only spent 10 years here working so i bow down to your superiority.

Well toad if you would actually want to provide a post with your insights into employment law gleaned over your ten years here then I would be quite interested--but instead you take the lazy approach of name calling.

Perhaps you could start by telling me if Thailand's labor laws allow for the accused employee to be given the opportunity to offer an explanation and offer testimony in their defense prior to being summarily dismissed from their employment and not allowed to work in their profession ever again--as you suggested in your earlier post. I would argue your desire for summary judgement and penalty without the right to fair representation is far more archaic and backwards than what would be deemed fair in most countries, but then you are the expert in Thailand and with 20+ years in this healthcare field. Is this how you did it back home?

Edited November 11, 2014 by ClutchClark

[ClutchClark]

BTW, this is Thailand--its not your "back home". You seem to often suffer confusion in that regard.

funny that

you are always bleating on about "back home" in your posts in fact in your follow up to this post, you do it twice there...

pots and kettles and all...Clutchy boy

Yes, I certainly talk about "back home"; however, I am not of the opinion I have any right to insist Thailand follow or heed the practices of my own country. My posts always support an independent Thailand that is fully capable of governing their own people without assistance from the colonial-era mindset often displayed here. I consider Thailand a sovereign nation and since I am a guest here, it is my choice to accept their laws and Traditions or refuse them by returning home.

So, is that a photo of a Thai skunk or other member of the genus, Mephitis?

Edited November 11, 2014 by ClutchClark

[Soutpeel]

So, is that a photo of a Thai skunk or other member of the genus, Mephitis?

No dear boy, not a Thai skunk, one assumes given your background, you are well familiar with skunks and eating squirrel for Sunday lunch, but that animal is a Honey Badger called Zuma.

and if your tried to eat him or even milk him, one suspects he would have your testicles off rather rapidly...

[JacChang]

I believe it was a honest mistake. The director simply wanted "to increase revenue". By having their pharmacy department dispense more contraceptive pills to "customers".

[ClutchClark]

So, is that a photo of a Thai skunk or other member of the genus, Mephitis?

No dear boy, not a Thai skunk, one assumes given your background, you are well familiar with skunks and eating squirrel for Sunday lunch, but that animal is a Honey Badger called Zuma.

and if your tried to eat him or even milk him, one suspects he would have your testicles off rather rapidly...

Your pettiness never ceases. Two posts and still nothing to address the OP subject, only criticisms of me.

You have made it an artform to bring others down to your level rather than rise up to ours.

Last words to you.

[Monkorn]

No distortion though, maternity leave is a request by an employee for personal leave. In a fair society, the reason personal leave is granted should not be based on gender.

You did further the subject when you mentioned, "most receive unpaid leave or schedule their vacation around time of birth". In other words, it is often considered vacation time. Furthermore, I personally think if a woman wants to have a child and her absence will place an undue burden on the employer then the woman has the right to quit--just like a man should have the right to quit if his priorities change. You see, I support "equality" and not preferential treatment based on gender, or its ugly step sister " gender discrimination".

On a sidenote, American women do seem to frequently "plan" for their pregnancies. Do you know if this is the same for Thai women? Family Planning? Any insight appreciated.

I've been lucky as my employer (USA) provides 2 weeks paid paternity leave and an additional 2 weeks unpaid. As such, I didn't have to request time off as I had the right to it regardless of what more employer wanted. In my department, about 40 people, it's always been a non-issue regarding time off even with slightly more than half of my colleagues being women. I benefited from an egalitarian policy though I wouldn't have complained if it were only given to women since they are doing the delivery. That said, employers shouldn't look at this as a vacation because it's far from it. Unfortunately, women are usually faced with exhausting their vacation time/pay for birthing purposes.

My wife is Thai, but naturalized as an American, and she (we) definitely planned the birth. She's also an adjunct professor at one of the colleges near our home in America so she works on a 9 month contract and doesn't get vacation time. Although she only missed a couple of days due to the pregnancy, she was docked pay for those dates. Her friends, here in Thailand, also planned their pregnancies. To answer your question, in my opinion, education level is the key variable in family planning although there are exceptions as anyone who's not taking birth control is at risk. Planning is also subjective. Should one plan around personal convenience or that of the employer? I think you know where I stand.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Monkorn

[ClutchClark]

No distortion though, maternity leave is a request by an employee for personal leave. In a fair society, the reason personal leave is granted should not be based on gender.

You did further the subject when you mentioned, "most receive unpaid leave or schedule their vacation around time of birth". In other words, it is often considered vacation time. Furthermore, I personally think if a woman wants to have a child and her absence will place an undue burden on the employer then the woman has the right to quit--just like a man should have the right to quit if his priorities change. You see, I support "equality" and not preferential treatment based on gender, or its ugly step sister " gender discrimination".

On a sidenote, American women do seem to frequently "plan" for their pregnancies. Do you know if this is the same for Thai women? Family Planning? Any insight appreciated.

I've been lucky as my employer (USA) provides 2 weeks paid paternity leave and an additional 2 weeks unpaid. As such, I didn't have to request time off as I had the right to it regardless of what more employer wanted. In my department, about 40 people, it's always been a non-issue regarding time off even with slightly more than half of my colleagues being women. I benefited from an egalitarian policy though I wouldn't have complained if it were only given to women since they are doing the delivery. That said, employers shouldn't look at this as a vacation because it's far from it. Unfortunately, women are usually faced with exhausting their vacation time/pay for birthing purposes.

My wife is Thai, but naturalized as an American, and she (we) definitely planned the birth. She's also an adjunct professor at one of the colleges near our home in America so she works on a 9 month contract and doesn't get vacation time. Although she only missed a couple of days due to the pregnancy, she was docked pay for those dates. Her friends, here in Thailand, also planned their pregnancies. To answer your question, in my opinion, education level is the key variable in family planning although there are exceptions as anyone who's not taking birth control is at risk. Planning is also subjective. Should one plan around personal convenience or that of the employer? I think you know where I stand.

Thanks for the insights. I am encouraged by the egalitarian policy.

I was not suggesting that someone plan around the needs of the employer as much as I was suggesting when one's personal priorities are no longer in jive with the employer then the employee should consider relinquishing their job. I do not feel it is the responsibility of the employer to placate their employees personal needs but rather to operate a successful company. If retaining the employee offers the best opportunity to operate a successful company then the choice should be up to the employer but not mandated by law.

But one question about your own workplace--what if a male employee was not going to father a child? Would they not be allowed 2 weeks paid paternity leave and two additional weeks without pay? If they are not entitled to this same benefit, then your workplace is not fully "egalitarian", IMO.

Congrats on fatherhood.

[Tonawatchee]

A weeks stay at the inactive hospital post will make all well again.

[mrtoad]

So, is that a photo of a Thai skunk or other member of the genus, Mephitis?

No dear boy, not a Thai skunk, one assumes given your background, you are well familiar with skunks and eating squirrel for Sunday lunch, but that animal is a Honey Badger called Zuma.

and if your tried to eat him or even milk him, one suspects he would have your testicles off rather rapidly...

Your pettiness never ceases. Two posts and still nothing to address the OP subject, only criticisms of me.

You have made it an artform to bring others down to your level rather than rise up to ours.

Last words to you.

Hows the view from your ivory tower?