Stabbed in the back.

[SlyAnimal]

I think it's a bit harsh to give the OP grief over not having a prepared lesson plan etc. I wouldn't "expect" that I'd need to give a demo lesson unless the school had notified me beforehand. And if they didn't have projectors or even whiteboards, then much of the prep would have been wasted anyway lol.

I think that even without having had more than say 5-10 minutes to prepare a demo lesson, most teachers could still hash something up based on a previous lesson (Which is I think what the OP did).

Not being informed of the need for a demo lesson also essentially removes the expectation that you'd have a written lesson plan + worksheets etc available. Which are of limited value to the school anyway, since prepared material for a demo lesson might not necessarily reflect the teacher's usual preparation (e.g. LostinIsaan's example of providing another teacher with a demo lesson).

Also a school which isn't organized enough to tell applicants to be prepared to give a demo lesson, likely aren't as focused on a teacher's organization/preparation. Instead they are probably more looking at the teacher's rapport with the students, general methodology, classroom control and confidence.

Edited November 15, 2014 by SlyAnimal
Saw some typos lol

[EASYDOGG]

The moment I read that you didn't have a lesson plan to hand I stopped reading. That's sloppy!

[stubuzz]

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Yes. I would of asked who the demo lesson was intended for during the interview. If they didn't know, i would of prepared 2 or 3 different lesson incorporating the same ides at varying levels of difficulty. It shows that you are prepared and have planned beforehand.

I was asked to have a demo lesson once, they told me during the interview not before so I got 5 min to prepare... And they had arranged for a mixed class so students from M1 to M6... How do you prepare for that?!

In that situation i would of walked away. They were not looking for a professional teacher only an edutainer.

[Mudcrab]

"But if you were in a western country, and someone gave you a bad reference, I very much doubt you could take any legal action against them"

You can definitely be sued in western countries for giving a 'bad reference', but you have a good chance of winning if you have evidence to support what you've said. Seehttp://www.nytimes.c...g-too-much.html. For example, you would want to have performance reviews or disciplinary records that corroborate what is being said in the reference letter. Of course, there's a lot that makes someone a less-than-ideal employee that does not make it into formal performance reviews, and that's where the problem lies.

My point wasn't so much that you can't take legal action, but that it's almost impossible to win and usually not worth even attempting (Unless it's for millions or clear cut).

As per your article:

The law is very much on the bosses' side. Employers have the right to discuss their employees with others who have a common interest in them. And it is a fundamental legal principle that neither true statements nor statements of opinion can be defamatory, no matter how hurtful they are. Indeed, employers are only liable for defamation if they knowingly or recklessly spread false information. A No-Win Case for Employers

Essentially in the west, the employer is allowed to give a bad reference, provided it's based on the truth (as they see it). If they provide information which isn't based on the truth, then they open themselves up, but even then, the employee needs to actually get access to that information (And most companies which don't hire you, don't give a detailed breakdown on why they didn't hire you, let alone explain the particulars of your bad reference).

People can sue them, but the ex-employee usually loses, so has to waste time + pay legal fees + often the employer will be awarded a portion of costs as well, not to mention of course that it's essentially airing the employee's dirty laundry for all to see, and providing a black mark against them for any future employees.

The company also has to waste time/money defending the case, and may cop some bad publicity, but legally they're usually rock solid.

Generally litigation for a bad reference is a lose lose situation for both parties, although the employee is usually going to lose the most (Unless they can just get their employer to settle outside of court).

The same goes for most legal action against employers, unless it's pretty clear cut that the employee was mistreated. I've seen some cases in the news where employees have told their boss to "Go **** yourself, and stick your job up your ****!!) then been fired for serious misconduct. But the employee somehow works out that they have a case, and then manage to win it. If you goggled the name of a prospective applicant, and saw a report about them doing that... and then the boss having to pay them out.... how likely would you be to hire them lol.

The same goes with references, if you found out that one of your ex-employees tried to sue another ex-employer for defamation based on a reference, would you give them a reference at all? And if you did decide to, and just cover your bases, you'd probably inform the new employer that the employee has previously taken legal action over employment disputes (Which, if I were their new employer, would sink any chances they had of working for my company).

I have two responses.

If the employee was good, I tell the truth.

If the employee was no good I respond with "I don't give personal references".

[steven100]

You want some good advice ....

Forget it and move on ... it's a lesson learnt.

This is Thailand .. not the US.

Have you ever heard of a farang suing a thai for defamation and winning ... no , I didn't think so

[konying]

Not a teacher but have business and employ people.

When someone comes for job interview with a wife, husband, friends, boyfriend, girlfriend, mother, daughter, son or whoever else, i do not even bother to interview them.

If a grown up man/woman can not attend interview without someone holding their hand, i surely would not be trusting them with any kind of job.

Back in AU, i also had a business, and in all honestly, i have never had anyone come for job interview with a wife, husband, friends, boyfriend, girlfriend, mother, daughter, son or whoever else and if anyone did, i never saw that person.

May be the admin of the school sees things the same way i do

PS, I am not sure how and why it would be illegal to seek reference from previous employer.

Edited November 15, 2014 by konying

[ggt]

Drop it! You are all worked up over "hearsay" evidence...move on...try another school...maybe try leaving the school you think is giving you a bad report out of your resume...

Don't waste your time or money on a frivolous lawsuit...you will not win...This my friend is Thailand...

[gunnerterry]

Thank you to all that have added comments, even the slightly negative ones. Like I said, this happened about 3 weeks to a month ago. @stubuzz, What I did was question sometimes why the school kept using techniques of teaching that were dated/failures and also why some gifted students from non-bilingual classes could not get a scholarship into the MEP program. We all know an MEP program is just a money making machine and the school wants top dollar, regardless of the students abilities. To the guys who commented about the lesson plan, how can you write one when you are given no information about the class you would teach??? Sure, I had a lesson plan but it was in my head, like many others I could have done. I would like you to put into a room blind and pull a lesson off..........seriously! A written lesson plan is just a piece of paper, it's what you can do in the classroom that matters the most.

You talk about slander and sueing someone, but i think you ought to be careful what you write yourself! .... You state .. quote ' We all know an MEP Program is just a money making machine and the school wants top dollar regardless of the student's abilities' ..... Well no! we don't all know this. For example the MEP at my school has 'kicked out' in the region of 10 students during the last 2 semesters because their grades and performance does not meet the standards we require. We are not a large MEP and we need the money but standards and quality comes first. Maybe there is a simple answer to your situation. Maybe you were just not good enough!!!

[lostmebike]

With regard to the reference, perhaps you could find a contact person at that school who has a more positive take on your previous time there. If you spent 4-5 years there and were so bad, then why didn't they get rid of you before then?

I work with Thai admin and I am the one who often gets to do the termination. The reasons given to me are things like: too old, not polite, doesn't dress nicely, speaks too loudly, speaks too softly, we don't like his accent, the students don't understand him (when in fact it's the principal who doesn't understand).

Being late and absences are also a big issue. Classroom management is also a big issue. Many of these teachers use me as a reference and they do get a positive one from me.

There are loyalty issues at school and there is face. If you left, and it caused them to lose face, then they will be less than forgiving. If they got rid of you, then they have to be justify their actions.

With regard to the demonstration, that can be a problem. I often have a job opening, but I might move people around to make sure that we have the best teacher in a position. I usually ask teachers to pick a subject/topic and a grade level that they are comfortable with and demonstrate before me and a Thai admin.

A lesson plan is a VERY good idea and I am impressed with people that give me a lesson plan and have a work sheet prepared as well. Good teachers can often punt -- I had a nice, well experienced lady who did 'air writing' and had us spell the words!!

So, first check with your reference, or supply them with a contact person at the school that will provide a positive response.

Second, plan a lesson, have a written lesson plan and back up material. Even if they ask for you do something different, at least you can show them this is what you prepared.

Best of luck.

I can imagine the pain it causes you Scott.

[SheungWan]

One time I applied for a job which was advertised internally. I knew I had to apply but that internal politics would probably stop me. Of course they short-listed me but I was determined to put on a show for the interview. I did an excellent job even if I say so myself and wanted to make the panel not have it easy. Needless to say I didn't get the job, but when the HoD came out after the appointment was announced and asked me whether I wanted feedback (to which i was entitled) I said 'no' as I didn't trust anything that the HoD would have said to me. And I didn't want to give the HoD the opportunity to talk BS on this occasion. Went home had a shower and reported for work the next day. The actual appointment made wasn't a success. ...... What I am saying to the OP is that he cannot trust the snippets of info for the reason he didn't get the job ie last college reference. Sometimes you can do a brilliant performance in the interview and even the presentation but if someone else has been lined up for a shoe-in, then you are just a filler for the day. And that happened to me on another interview day..........And so it goes. Eventually your time will come.

Edited November 15, 2014 by SheungWan

[MJP]

One time I applied for a job which was advertised internally. I knew I had to apply but that internal politics would probably stop me. Of course they short-listed me but I was determined to put on a show for the interview. I did an excellent job even if I say so myself and wanted to make the panel not have it easy. Needless to say I didn't get the job, but when the HoD came out after the appointment was announced and asked me whether I wanted feedback (to which i was entitled) I said 'no' as I didn't trust anything that the HoD would have said to me. And I didn't want to give the HoD the opportunity to talk BS on this occasion. Went home had a shower and reported for work the next day. The actual appointment made wasn't a success. ...... What I am saying to the OP is that he cannot trust the snippets of info for the reason he didn't get the job ie last college reference. Sometimes you can do a brilliant performance in the interview and even the presentation but if someone else has been lined up for a shoe-in, then you are just a filler for the day. And that happened to me on another interview day..........And so it goes. Eventually your time will come.

Out of likes.

[connda]

Walk away. Apply for other jobs. Hiring cycles go like this: rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection -- Hired!!!

Learn from the failures and prepare for the future interviews, including information gleaned from your post here on TV. That's just life. I get discrimated against based on age. That's just life too. So adapt! Move on!

Edited November 15, 2014 by connda

[jacksam]

OP grow up...get over it. You sound very young which actually is an asset for teaching. Fact us learn by your poor preparation and LEARN.

Next time find out what is required.

[Jools]

You really have no chance for justice as a farang in Thailand. A defamation lawsuit would go nowhere and might get you in worse trouble. Move on.

[ResandePohm]

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I read a reference once which said 'This person has absolutely no mental health problems'.

Just as disconcerting "This young corporal will continue through life pushing on doors that say pull. "

The most foretelling reference I have seen was in India when recruiting a new housemaid:

"This woman deserves a good birth. The wider the better"

She presented this very proud that she deserved a good birth.

[mgjackson69]

I read a reference once which said 'This person has absolutely no mental health problems'.

Just as disconcerting "This young corporal will continue through life pushing on doors that say pull. "

The most foretelling reference I have seen was in India when recruiting a new housemaid:

"This woman deserves a good birth. The wider the better"

She presented this very proud that she deserved a good birth.

”birth”???

Or was that ”berth?”

[ResandePohm]

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I read a reference once which said 'This person has absolutely no mental health problems'.

Just as disconcerting "This young corporal will continue through life pushing on doors that say pull. "

The most foretelling reference I have seen was in India when recruiting a new housemaid:

"This woman deserves a good birth. The wider the better"

She presented this very proud that she deserved a good birth.

”birth”???

Or was that ”berth?”

I stand corrected. We are not all English Language teachers or even native English speakers

[Eddy B]

Again. I would like to thank you all for the comments and I feel I will knock the school off my CV as they still hold a grudge. I will just use the school that I used to teach at voluntary because I wanted to keep teaching. Now I have a family it would be just nice to find a nice mon-fri job plus teach my privates. @gunnerterry I am not the greatest teacher but even my students that I taught from P3 in 2005 still come back as they want ME to teach them. If a moderator wants to close this topic down I will leave it upto them. Again, thank you to all the guys who understand. P.s. My interview was not done in a school but a Tessabarn government building and my wife was outside of the interview room, waiting in the main office in the A/C.

[Doc50]

As constructive as you will really get in Thailand.

TIT get over it.

[Doc46]

Bite you bottom lip and move on,,,This is Thailand,,, You Lose,,,

[LawrenceN]

Yes. I would of asked who the demo lesson was intended for during the interview. If they didn't know, i would of prepared 2 or 3 different lesson incorporating the same ides at varying levels of difficulty. It shows that you are prepared and have planned beforehand.

Oh, you "would of" would you? I wouldn't. I would have or would've, if you prefer. I doubt you're in a position to give advice about teaching English. Can we skip the "grammar nazi" accusation, please? Someone presumes to give teaching advice who's semi-literate himself.

[jacko45k]

OP and others.

Stop comparing to 'back home' and other countries.

Thailand and Thais do things in their own unique way......

I would not consider legal action and likely there is not much you can do about a prior school giving negative reviews.

Did you receive any written references?

You sound like a competent person and I expect you will find a suitable position.

[Strangebrew]

Look as far as suing forget it your a farang and you lose. Secondly if your able to teach then return to your own country and teach there I'm sure they could use good teachers. Why try to teach where your not wanted. The money can't be issue. Cambodia needs teachers so dose Vietnam. Just stop whinning and go to where your wanted.

[connda]

Again. I would like to thank you all for the comments and I feel I will knock the school off my CV as they still hold a grudge. I will just use the school that I used to teach at voluntary because I wanted to keep teaching. Now I have a family it would be just nice to find a nice mon-fri job plus teach my privates. @gunnerterry I am not the greatest teacher but even my students that I taught from P3 in 2005 still come back as they want ME to teach them. If a moderator wants to close this topic down I will leave it upto them. Again, thank you to all the guys who understand. P.s. My interview was not done in a school but a Tessabarn government building and my wife was outside of the interview room, waiting in the main office in the A/C.

Now you have a game plan. Excellent. Constantly reassess your interviewing skills, and once you have a job again, constantly reassess your teaching skill. Note your strengths, note your weaknesses, develop a plan to capitalize on your strengths and seek out methods to improve your weaknesses. Over time, you'll develop confidence in your abilities to both teach and to find teaching jobs. Job turnover in this profession (and this country) is just a fact of life; try not to take it personally. Eventually you might find you are a really good fit in one specific school you work for, you become an integral part of their team, and working and teaching becomes a joy. Patience - you'll get there! Best of luck!

Edited November 16, 2014 by connda

[GaryAdriaenssens]

As Mr. Simpson stated, don't waste your precious time with them. They all backing up each other most often when they know they're wrong. Number one hypocrites (but don't say that!) and above all complete amateurs. So move on buddy, when you're a native speaker of English you're not going to have problems to find more decent schools. Moreover you're a teacher with experience and qualities so they lost and not you. Good luck.

[SlyAnimal]

Closing thread at the request of OP.