Muslims found Americas before Columbus says Turkey's Erdogan

[jpinx]

 

Muslims before Columbus, Vikings before the Muslims, Phoenicians before the Vikings, Egyptians before the Phoenicians and no doubt some African kid on a log that trumped them all.

 

It is not who discovered Americas, but who 'developed' it.

There is little or no arguments that Latinos, English and French produced the most profound effect.

Without going into the morals.

Define "developed"

Prior civilisations had developed it to suit their needs. Their touch was much lighter - they didn't bulldoze the Pyramids

[kaobang]

he is so wrong.the first ones to discover america were the asian ,about 20,000 years ago,through the boering strait

Edited November 17, 2014 by kaobang

[The Deerhunter]

Not sure if there is any credible evidence backing up the statement that muslim sailors met the latin Americans in 1178, but there is a case for the Chinese discovering and mapping America 70 years before Columbus showed up^.

A Chinese map has been discovered dating back to 1418 and is attributed to Chinese Admiral Zheng He. Zheng He — a Muslim eunuch — is arguably the most famous explorer in Chinese history. He was deployed by the emperor, he led Chinese fleets on voyages of discovery that helped expand the empire’s knowledge of the world to include previously unknown areas in the Middle East and Africa. His influence over Asian culture was so strong that he is still considered a god in some parts of Indonesia, so the possiblity that a muslim did actually discover America could actually be true.

Seems like he circumnavigated Australia too.

The map he used is the Piri Reis map. Google it. It opens all sorts of cans of worms including a coastline of Antarctica ice-free?????

Edited November 17, 2014 by The Deerhunter

[kaobang]

if muslim really found america before Colombo,america would be a muslim continent now.

at the time muslim piracy was at top and lot of bloody expeditions to italian,french and spanish coasts

however the muslim army faced a defeat in spain

maybe just a small battle in the mediterranean sea prevented the muslim ships to explore the south america.

around those years the muslim army almost conquered Austria

[Seastallion]

if muslim really found america before Colombo,america would be a muslim continent now.

He didn't find America, he found the murderer.

[Jingthing]

he is so wrong.the first ones to discover america were the asian ,about 20,000 years ago,through the boering strait

That theory is pretty strong but I'd like to add an adjustment to that I recently heard about. Sorry, no link. What I read was that the people who did migrate that way had ALREADY differentiated ethnically as Native American types rather than what we consider as "Asians" and that happened before the migration. So they weren't Asians like Han Chinese. Already something different.

Of course from that migration came some amazing ancient civilizations all over the Americas, complete with complex cities, pyramids, etc.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Jingthing

[F430murci]

So they built a Mosque and left because there were no infidel Christians to terrorize and kill. Americas were just fun for them back then.

[pmugghc]

I think the point is that America is supposed to give the land back to the Muslims. It is a common theme with that lot.

I'm reading through these posts then "BINGO!" You hit it spot on.

Is it possible a mosque was present when Columbus came? Yea, I think so. If one considers the mind blowing voyages of Zheng He, the eunuch navy commander of the Chinese emperor. Gavin Menzies wrote a remarkable and enjoyable book, 1434, which makes it possible that there was a mosque in the Americas. The fleet sailed thru malacas strts, around India and down African coast- of course there would have been Muslim stewards and hands. Moreover, Menzies makes a brilliant argument that the Bimini road was a repair slip, and that a part of the fleet was marooned in the Caribean. But this does not make a Muslim new world.

The new world was old in the 12th century, as far as europeans are concerned. (DNA tests on select people's up and down the the west coasts of Americas evidence clear Chinese DNA that was further clarified to be from a particular area in China, the shipyards).

The very observation that a man today ("I Want To Be A Caliph Erdogan") and declares that a spaniard did not find the new world, An Italian did not find the new world, but that a religion found the new world- his religion, should make anyone who appreciates the enlightenment cringe.

Islam never had an enlightenment process like Christianity had.

[thailiketoo]

Which place would one go to learn who discovered the Americas?

A or B?

[rgs2001uk]

No mention as of yet made of The Zen Brothers from Italy,

http://www.amazon.com/Venetian-Navigators-Voyages-Brothers-North-ebook/dp/B004PGMHM4

No mention as of yet made to Roslin Chapel.

[attento]

People from what is now Korea discovered America. Their descendants are the Native American Indians. Their origins were traced using DNA. They got there during the last ice age when the sea was frozen between what is now Alaska and Russia.

Christopher Columbus discovered the Bahamas, not America, on his first voyage. The Vikings had been visiting America for hundreds of years before Columbus. So why does the USA celebrate Columbus day?

and where did the first inhabitants of Korea originate ?

Why start the timeline in Korea ?

[arjunadawn]

I think the point is that America is supposed to give the land back to the Muslims. It is a common theme with that lot.

I'm reading through these posts then "BINGO!" You hit it spot on.

Is it possible a mosque was present when Columbus came? Yea, I think so. If one considers the mind blowing voyages of Zheng He, the eunuch navy commander of the Chinese emperor. Gavin Menzies wrote a remarkable and enjoyable book, 1434, which makes it possible that there was a mosque in the Americas. The fleet sailed thru malacas strts, around India and down African coast- of course there would have been Muslim stewards and hands. Moreover, Menzies makes a brilliant argument that the Bimini road was a repair slip, and that a part of the fleet was marooned in the Caribean. But this does not make a Muslim new world.

The new world was old in the 12th century, as far as europeans are concerned. (DNA tests on select people's up and down the the west coasts of Americas evidence clear Chinese DNA that was further clarified to be from a particular area in China, the shipyards).

The very observation that a man today ("I Want To Be A Caliph Erdogan") and declares that a spaniard did not find the new world, An Italian did not find the new world, but that a religion found the new world- his religion, should make anyone who appreciates the enlightenment cringe.

Islam never had an enlightenment process like Christianity had.

I think it's fair to say there's a reformation of sorts taking place in Islam. IMO the modernists are not faring well to the fundentalists who have clear doctrine and scripture on their side.

Had there been a mosque there would have been an imam. Had that been tru there would have been people. Had there been people there would have been detritus and tells and other evidence. There is none. While its reputed a statement was made regarding a natural structure looking like a mosque, this does not constitute a settlement. Clingmans Dome in NC might also be described the same way and it's a natural park. Seafarers and mercenaries generally prayed facing the qibla on their travels and did not build mosques.

Had there been Muslims here earlier would hardly be as important as whether there were Arabs, etc. Muslims see all through thr lens of religion and this alone is alarming. Nevertheless, neither were here prior to Europeans. Yet curiously, in the levant no less, there was crusade era documents in the Templar troves referring to America across the waters. This would have been 11-13th century. So much for the Amergio Vespuci story.

[attento]

he is so wrong.the first ones to discover america were the asian ,about 20,000 years ago,through the boering strait

That theory is pretty strong but I'd like to add an adjustment to that I recently heard about. Sorry, no link. What I read was that the people who did migrate that way had ALREADY differentiated ethnically as Native American types rather than what we consider as "Asians" and that happened before the migration. So they weren't Asians like Han Chinese. Already something different.

Of course from that migration came some amazing ancient civilizations all over the Americas, complete with complex cities, pyramids, etc.

You are correct.

The theory is that there were many waves of migration, across asia and into north america.

During the many thousands of years, after leaving Africa, there was sufficient evolutionary time enough to develop distinct "racial" types.

It all stated in Africa . . . . ( Bible fundamentalists, please ignore that last sentence ).

[attento]

 

Muslims before Columbus, Vikings before the Muslims, Phoenicians before the Vikings, Egyptians before the Phoenicians and no doubt some African kid on a log that trumped them all.

 

It is not who discovered Americas, but who 'developed' it.

There is little or no arguments that Latinos, English and French produced the most profound effect.

Without going into the morals.

Dont forget the profound commercial effects of the Italian Mafia.

[arjunadawn]

I think the point is that America is supposed to give the land back to the Muslims. It is a common theme with that lot.

I'm reading through these posts then "BINGO!" You hit it spot on.

Is it possible a mosque was present when Columbus came? Yea, I think so. If one considers the mind blowing voyages of Zheng He, the eunuch navy commander of the Chinese emperor. Gavin Menzies wrote a remarkable and enjoyable book, 1434, which makes it possible that there was a mosque in the Americas. The fleet sailed thru malacas strts, around India and down African coast- of course there would have been Muslim stewards and hands. Moreover, Menzies makes a brilliant argument that the Bimini road was a repair slip, and that a part of the fleet was marooned in the Caribean. But this does not make a Muslim new world.

The new world was old in the 12th century, as far as europeans are concerned. (DNA tests on select people's up and down the the west coasts of Americas evidence clear Chinese DNA that was further clarified to be from a particular area in China, the shipyards).

The very observation that a man today ("I Want To Be A Caliph Erdogan") and declares that a spaniard did not find the new world, An Italian did not find the new world, but that a religion found the new world- his religion, should make anyone who appreciates the enlightenment cringe.

I thought your opening line was sarcasm in response to sarcasm. But then you spoilt it. UG's comment was simply a snide and cynical jab at Palestine.

Of course Erdogan was not saying that!

I find the notion quite ridiculous, and I would have thought that your personal view of Muslims, though radical, wouldn't stoop to such silly nonsense as believing for a nanosecond that Erdogan ever considered such an outrageous thought.

Or have I fallen for your joke? If I have, well, you got a good one over me, well done.

No joke. You should know by now I'm not funny. I Also hold no radical views. All views are personal- for all! My comments on Islam are most absent emotion or such. I remain measured, mostly dispassionate, and seek objectivity. The fact that I differ greatly from you does not make my views radical. Indeed, it can be argued both ways. But I wouldn't because attacking your perspective and not your ponts makes me an inferior man.

To esteem Erdogan with leadership and wisdom that is sorely lacking in his CV blinds. This man, by numerous accounts, is quite fundementally in bed with the Muslim Brotherhood and seeks a dissolution of secular Turkey.

When taken in context: the MB, his Islamist track record, overt support for IS, vehement antisemitism, and the long history of Muslims appropriating everything from Buddha to Córdoba, to Abrham to Jesus and Mary, itd be continued folly (as the west practices daily toward the specter of rising Islamization) to marginalize such comments. There meaningless, but we should not rationalize a meaning other than what the Islamists tel us listen! They want global domination, not only as a religion but as an ideology of commerce, justice, military, and social. Listen to what they are saying not what we prefer to believe.

[pmugghc]

I think the point is that America is supposed to give the land back to the Muslims. It is a common theme with that lot.

I'm reading through these posts then "BINGO!" You hit it spot on.

Is it possible a mosque was present when Columbus came? Yea, I think so. If one considers the mind blowing voyages of Zheng He, the eunuch navy commander of the Chinese emperor. Gavin Menzies wrote a remarkable and enjoyable book, 1434, which makes it possible that there was a mosque in the Americas. The fleet sailed thru malacas strts, around India and down African coast- of course there would have been Muslim stewards and hands. Moreover, Menzies makes a brilliant argument that the Bimini road was a repair slip, and that a part of the fleet was marooned in the Caribean. But this does not make a Muslim new world.

The new world was old in the 12th century, as far as europeans are concerned. (DNA tests on select people's up and down the the west coasts of Americas evidence clear Chinese DNA that was further clarified to be from a particular area in China, the shipyards).

The very observation that a man today ("I Want To Be A Caliph Erdogan") and declares that a spaniard did not find the new world, An Italian did not find the new world, but that a religion found the new world- his religion, should make anyone who appreciates the enlightenment cringe.

Islam never had an enlightenment process like Christianity had.

I think it's fair to say there's a reformation of sorts taking place in Islam. IMO the modernists are not faring well to the fundentalists who have clear doctrine and scripture on their side.

Had there been a mosque there would have been an imam. Had that been tru there would have been people. Had there been people there would have been detritus and tells and other evidence. There is none. While its reputed a statement was made regarding a natural structure looking like a mosque, this does not constitute a settlement. Clingmans Dome in NC might also be described the same way and it's a natural park. Seafarers and mercenaries generally prayed facing the qibla on their travels and did not build mosques.

Had there been Muslims here earlier would hardly be as important as whether there were Arabs, etc. Muslims see all through thr lens of religion and this alone is alarming. Nevertheless, neither were here prior to Europeans. Yet curiously, in the levant no less, there was crusade era documents in the Templar troves referring to America across the waters. This would have been 11-13th century. So much for the Amergio Vespuci story.

You don't answer the question regarding enlightenment. Did Islam have that process?

[arjunadawn]

"pmugghc"

I didn't see a question.

I'm uncertain you'd call the Christian reformation an Enlightenment of the religion itself. The "Enlightenment" as we know in western history if far more diversified than faith alone. The "Reformation" was the equivalent soul searching and this generally hinged on papal authority as vicar and then a few significant theological issues. From a non religious perspective I don't consider any believers "Enlightened" rather they're still in Plato's Cave staring at shadows.

Still, toying with your "question," I'm uncertain that the premise is sound- that a given religion would or should have an "Enlightenment," necessarily. Since the book is closed for further prophecy in Islam and the nature of dualism and status as "slaves of Al Lah," I don't believe an environment exists for enlightened inquiry, or even disputing tenets. Therefore, I think an "Enlightenment" in Islam will never happen. I do believe a reformation of sorts is taking place. Like many here I pay close attention but I see a literal "reform" movement taking place to restore central practices and 7th century trappings. The reform is spreading through the body of Islam under the titles of Islamist, jihadist, etc., but they're all clearly more or less orthodox. They have Islamic jurisprudence overwhelmingly on their side. The "silent majority" of Islam this reform moves within are actually unorthodox Muslims. They are not simply redding Koranic lore differently,mother are in most instances not adhering to Shar 'ia. That's why the reform moves mostly unimpeded thru the Islamic world, with "radical Islam" growing. Radical Islam, that modern title to a timeless religion that has only been quiet these few generations, would be called... "Islam!" in every previous age. Thus the reform will restore first principles and the moderate Muslims will be increasingly absorbed, sidelined, or perhaps it's possible, fracture.

This is my best appraisal but I do not think it is a given that any ideology necessarily has an "Enlightenment" phase.

Edited November 17, 2014 by arjunadawn