US: Cleveland police shoot dead boy, 12, carrying fake gun

[webfact]

Cleveland police shoot dead boy, 12, carrying fake gun

(BBC) A 12-year-old boy has been shot dead by police in the US city of Cleveland, after brandishing what turned out to be a fake gun in a playground.

Police say an officer fired two shots at the boy after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

A caller reported the boy to police for scaring people with a gun but said that he did not know if it was real.

One of the officers was in his first year on the local force, the other had more than 10 years of experience.

'Airsoft'

The medical examiner for Cuyahoga County identified the boy as Tamir Rice.

Cleveland deputy police chief Ed Tomba said the boy was shot twice after pulling the gun from the waistband of his trousers. He died later in hospital.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30172433


-- BBC 2014-11-24

[Briggsy]

How would Thai police have handled such an eventuality in a public park?

[neverdie]

Terrible.

There's just a nano second of time from when one first sees a weapon and makes a decision on what to do about it. If the child reached for the weapon, it only takes a another split second for him to remove it from where it rested & fire it.

From even a short distance some toy or replica firearms can look real.

It's easy for mistakes to be made in high stress situations, this has been proven time and time again, regular and constant training helps but won't eliminate the chance.

The incident should be fully investigated, however people that have never walked in the police officers shoes shouldn't be too quick to judge.

RIP little boy, my thoughts are with you, your family and the police involved in this terrible tragedy.

[siampolee]

The result of a sick society that will not or cannot discourage or prohibit the use off and the carrying of firearms, thus society is on the whole living on a razor edge of fear.

Police offices who were or are perhaps also living on the razor edge of fear,indeed American society it seems has spawned an evil violence motivated society.

To have to make a decision as to whether to shoot or talk with a 12 year old boy should not be a difficult decision to make.

You talk, you do not shoot, you call for backup trained to deal with such a situation.

So yet again we are likely to see yet more outbreaks of wanton needless violence, riots the destruction of both private and public property and general civil disorder. Mad Max is becoming a reality as opposed to fiction I fear in the U .S .

[NeverSure]

The result of a sick society that will not or cannot discourage or prohibit the use off and the carrying of firearms, thus society is on the whole living on a razor edge of fear.

Police offices who were or are perhaps also living on the razor edge of fear,indeed American society it seems has spawned an evil violence motivated society.

To have to make a decision as to whether to shoot or talk with a 12 year old boy should not be a difficult decision to make.

You talk, you do not shoot, you call for backup trained to deal with such a situation.

So yet again we are likely to see yet more outbreaks of wanton needless violence, riots the destruction of both private and public property and general civil disorder. Mad Max is becoming a reality as opposed to fiction I fear in the U .S .

And just which Utopia do you live in which never has a needless death, any violence against children, and where people are perfect and immortal?

[siampolee]

Never Sure post # 5

And just which Utopia do you live in which never has a needless death, any violence against children, and where people are perfect and immortal?

Was a police officer and was trained as a firearms specialist we carried firearms in our dept at times, we were also trained to react accordingly.

Yes tragic unneeded deaths do occur however the killing of a 12 year old child is not a normal policing scenario.

And your experiences sir ?

[KarenBravo]

The cops did the right thing. They gave instructions to the boy and he refused to obey.

What if the gun was real and another child was killed?

[neverdie]

The result of a sick society that will not or cannot discourage or prohibit the use off and the carrying of firearms, thus society is on the whole living on a razor edge of fear.

Police offices who were or are perhaps also living on the razor edge of fear,indeed American society it seems has spawned an evil violence motivated society.

To have to make a decision as to whether to shoot or talk with a 12 year old boy should not be a difficult decision to make.

You talk, you do not shoot, you call for backup trained to deal with such a situation.

So yet again we are likely to see yet more outbreaks of wanton needless violence, riots the destruction of both private and public property and general civil disorder. Mad Max is becoming a reality as opposed to fiction I fear in the U .S .

SP,

The decision to make could possibly have been. 1. Shoot to defend oneself or 2. Be shot & die.

Although limited information is available, I seriously doubt the police just rocked up and shot him without a word being spoken.

There are a series of 'options' for police to use at these times but to 'pause' the incident whilst further enquiries are made or other people are called was possibly not one of them.

There's a saying amoungst law enforcement offices around the world.

"It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6".

The problem for law enforcement officers in gpthe USA is just the fact that so many people are packing heat these days. It's more than possible that a 12y.o could be carrying a loaded firearm. Shocking but true.

Edited November 24, 2014 by neverdie

[neverdie]

No police officer in any civilised country in the world wakes up, puts on his uniform and heads out with the intent of gunning down a 12 year old that was playing with a toy gun.

[siampolee]

N.D we both speak the same language as we both know, agreed no one goes out with a ''shoot to kill policy''

To be fair we should be privy to the actual matters regarding this situation, recorded radio traffic, instructions given and taken or ignored and who made the final decision as to shoot to kill.

[neverdie]

Years ago I did a training scenario in a blackened wearhouse where I challenged two people inside, one being a priest wielding a bible and concealed firearm and the second was a young boy with a toy firearm.

I shot the priest twice and my offsider shot the child and as it turned out the scenario revealed the child's gun was a toy and the priest was the armed offender. There was no shortage on conversation taking place and at a point when someone reached for a weapon, no option existed except the one I took. Thank goodness it was a scenario using firearms with paint rounds.

Some incidents go from being normal run of the mill, oh hum nothings to armed and deadly situations in a moment.

Hopefully common sense prevails within the community at this time until investigations are conducted. I hope there is footage of the incident.

[KarenBravo]

Unfortunately, both sides of the US gun control argument are right.

There are too many guns in the USA and they need to be taken out of civilian hands (2nd amendment regarding militias excepted).

If you ban guns, only the criminals will have them.

As a Brit, I didn't even see a gun until I was over eighteen and saw them for the first time on the European mainland.

Therefore I'm a natural supporter of gun control.

But, in the USA it is far too late for that. It should have happened a hundred years ago and would of had a chance of succeding. Now, there are at least five guns for every citizen and even if gun control was brought in, it wouldn't work and the pro-gun mantra would come true.

Personally, instead of trying to control guns, that will work for hundreds of years, they should try and restrict ammunition, which has a shelf life.

[Credo]

Many years ago, I had taken one of the kids to a birthday party and all the kids were given a gift of a toy gun. I didn't pay much attention to it, but we were driving home and he was sitting in the back seat playing with the gun. We were suddenly surrounded by police cars, and ordered out of the car with our hands in the air.

Some people had reported to the police seeing a child with a gun in the car and they took immediate action.

No harm was done, but no toy guns were ever allowed in the house. We didn't have any real ones either.

[neverdie]

N.D we both speak the same language as we both know, agreed no one goes out with a ''shoot to kill policy''

To be fair we should be privy to the actual matters regarding this situation, recorded radio traffic, instructions given and taken or ignored and who made the final decision as to shoot to kill.

It depends what your talking about.

Firstly, where I was trained, we only 'Shoot to kill', we aim for the centre of body mass and only use the firearm to imobilise (read kill) the target. We are not trained to try and shoot weapons from peoples hands.

I'm also from somewhere where ALL police carry firearms and sometimes operate as a single unit and called to incidents with 'backup' a considerable distance away.

Without any more information we don't know what transpired immediately before this tragedy.

Did police just drive upon this individual or were they responding to a call regarding someone armed with a firearm? ...... Or was it any one of the other million combinations possible?

Once that is known we can discuss everything else.

I do realise that not everywhere is same as where I worked, which may or may not be like cleverland.

[Scott]

I would guess that a kid with a firearm on school property would add even stress to the situation.

I am sure that the last thing the police officers want to live with is having killed a child.

RIP to the victim.

[NeverSure]

Never Sure post # 5

And just which Utopia do you live in which never has a needless death, any violence against children, and where people are perfect and immortal?

Was a police officer and was trained as a firearms specialist we carried firearms in our dept at times, we were also trained to react accordingly.

Yes tragic unneeded deaths do occur however the killing of a 12 year old child is not a normal policing scenario.

And your experiences sir ?

I'm a certified firearms instructor. I've been around guns all of my life.

They are making toy guns for kids now that look real. That's what should be illegal.

Look at these two guns. The first one with the blue background is a real 9mm Beretta 92FS. The second one on the wooden background is a toy replica. It even has the grip door open to receive the C02 cartridges to fire the soft projectiles.

Point either one of those at me and the result for you will be the same.

[lovetotravel]

N.D we both speak the same language as we both know, agreed no one goes out with a ''shoot to kill policy''

To be fair we should be privy to the actual matters regarding this situation, recorded radio traffic, instructions given and taken or ignored and who made the final decision as to shoot to kill.

And perhaps you shouldn't so quickly berate an entire country over this??? Especially as you say not all the info is known.

Your quote:

The result of a sick society that will not or cannot discourage or prohibit the use off and the carrying of firearms, thus society is on the whole living on a razor edge of fear.

Being from the US, I never lived on a razor edge of fear. Never. Well....there was that one time in college....

[Mosha]

Cleveland police are already under review dor an incident 2 years ago, when they fired 130 shots at an unarmed African American couple.

[Briggsy]

The 911 call tape, already released, has a member of the public claiming the boy has been scaring people by pointing the gun at them, Thus the 911 call to the police.

[Credo]

I am pretty sure that a police force the size of Cleveland is under review much of the time for something or another. Unless it is one of the involved officers, I don't see much relevance.

[NeverSure]

Unfortunately, both sides of the US gun control argument are right.

There are too many guns in the USA and they need to be taken out of civilian hands (2nd amendment regarding militias excepted).

If you ban guns, only the criminals will have them.

As a Brit, I didn't even see a gun until I was over eighteen and saw them for the first time on the European mainland.

Therefore I'm a natural supporter of gun control.

But, in the USA it is far too late for that. It should have happened a hundred years ago and would of had a chance of succeding. Now, there are at least five guns for every citizen and even if gun control was brought in, it wouldn't work and the pro-gun mantra would come true.

Personally, instead of trying to control guns, that will work for hundreds of years, they should try and restrict ammunition, which has a shelf life.

I have enough ammunition to last a lifetime. I also reload and can cast bullets from lead. I have enough reloading components to last another lifetime. They are a good investment. The value does nothing but go up.

Ammo has a shelf life? I fire ammo in my 30-06 that is from WWII.

BTW the US Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that the militia was intended to mean the people coming together if necessary. Private citizens. That's long settled law.

[Scott]

The issue here is a 12 year old boy with a gun. It was a toy gun, but that wasn't known at the time.

Please stay on the topic. This topic isn't about the Constitution or gun laws.

[TomYumpoochai]

there is no minimum age limit to firing a lethal weapon at someone as long as youre able to pull the trigger. He was told to put his hands up but went to his waistband to draw the weapon. He must have known it was a fake so id say he was looking for a darwin award ...12yrs old is old enough to know what he was doing.

[Credo]

there is no minimum age limit to firing a lethal weapon at someone as long as youre able to pull the trigger. He was told to put his hands up but went to his waistband to draw the weapon. He must have known it was a fake so id say he was looking for a darwin award ...12yrs old is old enough to know what he was doing.

A 12 year old is not old enough to be aware of the consequences of his actions.

[Daffy D]

Easy to blame the police but I blame the parents.

In this day and age what responsible parent would let their child go out waving around scaring people.

I doubt the media will be "brave" enough to question the parents regarding their sons actions.

All the attention will be on the Policeman.

[Ulysses G.]

there is no minimum age limit to firing a lethal weapon at someone as long as youre able to pull the trigger. He was told to put his hands up but went to his waistband to draw the weapon. He must have known it was a fake so id say he was looking for a darwin award ...12yrs old is old enough to know what he was doing.

A 12 year old is not old enough to be aware of the consequences of his actions.

I certainly was. When I was growing up, we handled guns all the time, but were not stupid enough to point them at anyone. A 7 year old child is a different story, but a 12 year old should be old enough to realize what he is doing.

[smedly]

The result of a sick society that will not or cannot discourage or prohibit the use off and the carrying of firearms, thus society is on the whole living on a razor edge of fear.

Police offices who were or are perhaps also living on the razor edge of fear,indeed American society it seems has spawned an evil violence motivated society.

To have to make a decision as to whether to shoot or talk with a 12 year old boy should not be a difficult decision to make.

You talk, you do not shoot, you call for backup trained to deal with such a situation.

So yet again we are likely to see yet more outbreaks of wanton needless violence, riots the destruction of both private and public property and general civil disorder. Mad Max is becoming a reality as opposed to fiction I fear in the U .S .

I see your point but have to disagree - on the face of it it seems like a harsh judgement call for a police officer to shoot a 12 yo but you or I not being at the scene under tense pressure and risk of possibly being shot - likely in an area of high crime rate and gun crime regularly being confronted with young teens carrying guns - if he was given clear instructions of what to do and didn't follow them then there is little else the police could have done, be interesting to hear a more detailed report of what took place

Don't forget we are in an age were young teens take firearms to school and on some occasions have been known to start shooting - who would ever have thought we'd have signs in schools saying "no firearms"

[F430murci]

So sad. The bigger problem is why do we have a 12 year old acting like a gang banger and having no respect for authority. These tragedies are the fault of the parents.

[F430murci]

The result of a sick society that will not or cannot discourage or prohibit the use off and the carrying of firearms, thus society is on the whole living on a razor edge of fear.

Police offices who were or are perhaps also living on the razor edge of fear,indeed American society it seems has spawned an evil violence motivated society.

To have to make a decision as to whether to shoot or talk with a 12 year old boy should not be a difficult decision to make.

You talk, you do not shoot, you call for backup trained to deal with such a situation.

So yet again we are likely to see yet more outbreaks of wanton needless violence, riots the destruction of both private and public property and general civil disorder. Mad Max is becoming a reality as opposed to fiction I fear in the U .S .

I see your point but have to disagree - on the face of it it seems like a harsh judgement call for a police officer to shoot a 12 yo but you or I not being at the scene under tense pressure and risk of possibly being shot - likely in an area of high crime rate and gun crime regularly being confronted with young teens carrying guns - if he was given clear instructions of what to do and didn't follow them then there is little else the police could have done, be interesting to hear a more detailed report of what took place

Don't forget we are in an age were young teens take firearms to school and on some occasions have been known to start shooting - who would ever have thought we'd have signs in schools saying "no firearms"

There are having to use metal detectors even in elementary schools now in some cities. My brother had to respond to incident once where a 13 year old beat a teacher nearly to death with a chair.

We have friends that were teachers in some of the rougher areas that quit teaching because they were in fear for their safety. Schools have become a war zone.

[Credo]

there is no minimum age limit to firing a lethal weapon at someone as long as youre able to pull the trigger. He was told to put his hands up but went to his waistband to draw the weapon. He must have known it was a fake so id say he was looking for a darwin award ...12yrs old is old enough to know what he was doing.

A 12 year old is not old enough to be aware of the consequences of his actions.

I certainly was. When I was growing up, we handled guns all the time, but were not stupid enough to point them at anyone. A 7 year old child is a different story, but a 12 year old should be old enough to realize what he is doing.

No, UG, you weren't. A 12 year old does not have the brain development to fully realize the consequences of their action. That is the reason that there are juvenile courts to deal with issues related to juveniles. That is also why parents are sometimes held responsible for the behavior of children. He was far from having the maturity of an adult.

It would take a child to some how pull a toy gun on armed police.