What Are/is Indigenous Thai Cattle?

[Maizefarmer]

So what constitutes a Thai cow – or what is a Thai cow?

It depends how far back you want to go back in history, but it’s generally accepted the existence of the “modern cow” as we know it today can be traced back in Thailand to around 3000BC.

The main/predominant genetic strain which flows through modern Thai “indigenous” cattle is

Bos Indicus, or in simple language, the Humped Zebu – more simple known as "Zebu".

Any cow you see in Thailand with a hump formation on the back – irrespective of the size of the hump or the animal – is carrying a large whack of Bos Indicus mitochondrial DNA, and is as close as you are going to get to defining Thai “indigenous” cattle.

From the Humped Zebu, the prominent indigenous Thai cow that Thai's bred is known in Thailand as the “Kao Lamphun” cow, also known as “Kho Chon”. This animal has a short straitish horn, and in its “pure form” is a dirty white colour - other colours coming in from some degree or other of other types of cattle, which if from a European herd, interestingly enough would be one or other of the breeds now common in Europe which were bred originally from Humpless Zebu (e.g. Fresian). The brown tendancy, and increase in milk production, comes from Sahiwal cattle - originally from Pakistan and which was bought to Thailand by the very first commercial dairy farmers in this country in the 1940's - 1950's, who were Pakistani immigrants living in and around Bangkok.

So – just what is so good about Kao Lumphun for Thailand and Thai conditions? Well, there is nothing complicated about it – it’s quite simply that the predominant Zebu genetic trait gives this cow resistance to local dieses that imported stock (like Friesian), do not have. It is also able to digest Asian grasses and plants much better than imported stock. And lastly, its water requirements are not as high as imported stock - in fact a chemical analysis of Kao Lamphun urine shows it similar in some respects to Asian camel urine. I don't know the "in's & out's" of that, but it has something to do with the animals ability to survive comfortable on limited water resources. That trait is not evident in European cattle of the Humpless Zebu.

But as a milk cow, it is a useless commercial proposition.

The Kao Lamphun is becoming increasingly rare in Thailand, and a genetic DNA study undertaken in 2003 by Khon Kaen Uni found that many of the herds that were belived “pure” 15 – 20 years ago are not pure, or are no longer pure – i.e. there are increasing amounts of Humpless Zebu genetics creeping in (from imported “European” cattle).

It is a dying breed simply because of its limited commercial value, not only as a milk animal, but also as a beef animal, because of its natural weight and size. Still, pure herds do exist, and it is not uncommon to come across the odd die-hard old-school Thai farmer who swears by them and earns his living from them - so it is possible.

As a side note: Dairy farming interestingly enough, was first practised in and around Bangkok in the 1940’s by Pakistani immigrants – of all people! Up until then rural Thai communities did not keep or breed cattle for dairy purposes and the consumption of milk in rural areas was so small as to be statistically insignificant. In fact it was seldom if ever consumed in rural Thailand and one of the reasons for that was, that for Homo Sapiens to digest milk they need an enzyme in the digestive tract to break down sugar lactose – without which we get sick (sugar lactose intolerance). The enzyme(s) is Lactase and Lipase.

It is a genetic fact that Asians have less resistance to sugar lactose than Europeans, and as a consequence, those who did drink cow’s milk in the old days, got sick – and from that grew the tendency in Thai (and other Asian cultures) not consume milk.

However, as we are changing so much genetically in modern society (just look at how many people are fat nowadays (Thai’s and Europeans), primarily as a result of the amounts of fat and sugar we are consuming in modern diets, so to is the human body’s ability to process sugar lactose – and from that has stemmed a year on year increase in the consumption of dairy milk by Thai’s (and other Asian cultures).

Tim

[chownah]

Maizefarmer,

I've never heard of a "Humpless Zebu" and have been looking around the internet to find out about it but have found nothing. Can you give me a reference...preferably a link...that talks about this animal?

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

“Humpless Zebu” – type in “Bos Taurus”, as opposed to “Bos Indicus”

This confusion is common because depending on the article written, you will find many geneticists use the terminology Indicus for “Humped” and “Taurine” for Humpless – so may also try a search on the net for “Bos Taurine”

Tim

[chownah]

Maizefarmer,

Everything I can find says that Zebu all have humps....if it doesn't have a hump it is not Zebu. I'm aware of Bos Indicus vs. Bos Taurus. As far as I can tell a "Humpless Zebu" does not exist. A zebu is one type of Bos Indicus. Bos Indicus is the line of cows that descended from wild oxen that were domesticated on the Indian subcontinent (probably) and are most likely (from the genetic evidence) from a different variant of the wild oxen that were domesticated further north which gave descent to Bos Tuarus which is also referred to as European cattle. All of the descendants of the Indian domesticated wild oxen (the descendents are called Bos Indicus) have humps....the Zebu is one of these descendent lines and they all have humps (as far as I have ever been able to find out). All of the descendents of the wild oxen which were domesticated farther north (the descendents are called Bos Tuarus) do not have humps...a Friesen I assume has no hump and since it is a European cow it would be a Bos Taurus...and it would be a mistake to call it a "Humpless Zebu" because Zebu are Bos Indicus.

Anyway that is my current understanding of the situation. I have never heard of a "Humpless Zebu" and am still wondering if you could figure out where you got the reference to this critter.

Also, did you know that the ITIS has stopped using Bos Indicus as taxonomic indicator and all animals which were previously indicated Bos Indicus are now include with Bos Taurus? This seems a bit strange because (it is my understanding) that all of the Bos Indicus genotypes and the Bos Tuarus genotypes cluster separately and the difference between these two clusters is much broader (x10) than the differences within each cluster...and...there is historic data that suggests that the domestication the wild oxen did happen in two distinct places and that there were genetic differences in the wild populations that would be consistent with the distance between the two clusters of genotypes. So, it appears that ITIS has combined two lines which common sense (whatever that is) would argue should be maintained seperate....but they're the experts and I'm just a rice farmer in northern Thailand.

Also, I'm wondering about your comment, "Any cow you see in Thailand with a hump formation on the back – irrespective of the size of the hump or the animal – is carrying a large whack of Bos Indicus mitochondrial DNA, and is as close as you are going to get to defining Thai “indigenous” cattle."

Are you suggesting that the hump is genetically passed on by the mitochondrial DNA?...and thus that it is only passed on by the female since (I believe) that all mitochondrial DNA is passed throught the egg since no mitochondria exist in sperm? Also, I have always thought that mitochondria only functioned at the inter-cellular level and thus would have no effect on grosser anatomical feature whose development requires intra-cellular action. If you are correct then I need to do some reading about mitochondrial DNA since there is something important there that I have missed.

Also, are you saying that any cow that has a hump "is as close as you are going to get to defining Thai “indigenous” cattle." I think that this is incorrect....for instance...there are lots of Brahma mix and probably even some almost pure Brahma cattle in Thailand...they have " a hump formation on the back " but I definitely would not say that they are "as close as you are going to get to defining Thai “indigenous” cattle." I think it is more correct to say that if it has a hump it has at least some Bos Indicus heritage.

Chownah

Edited August 6, 2006 by chownah

[Maizefarmer]

Chownah

Now. my other half is the specialist on this subject (i.e. humps and lack thereof and what is what ect…….) – she is a vet and a lecturer at Uni in animal genetics, and in taking guidance from her when posting the start to the thread, she was advising me to define all I said very carefully. I said no – this is a forum for a bunch of Western society dropouts – KISS – keep it simple stupid so all can relate to it and find it practical. Er…. – shes grinning now, how right she was!!

I fear we are going down a path beyond the scope of this forum, but fair comment you raise the questions, if I am to be bold enough to comment, then I should clarify the point if asked or challenged.

So we take a step back in the origin of Bos Indicus and Bos Tuarus, and find that both originate from the Auroch (Bos Primigenius) – the dominant observable physical difference been, the former has a hump, the latter does not.

However, this is where perhaps I should have included a clearer definition……..and I cut & paste from the other half, as it is she who has replied – you are way beyond my personal knowledge level detail here.

“despite 2 distinct dichotomies in the mtDNA, if you take the matter further and study the phylogenetic network, you will find Indicus nodes in Taurus – which is often described as “Humpless Zebu”, partly because Zebu is genetically older than Taurus – and because they both stem originally from Auroch – the prime generator of their common genetics”

Personally when it gets to this level, it is my opinion we have drifted off the point, but for the record folks – Chownah’s comment, in the absence of the clarification now given, was a valid and correct comment i.e. Bos Taurus and Bos Indicus are different, and it would be incorrect to call a Fresian a “Humpless Zebu”.

If anyone wants to take this further – I’ll give you my other half’s email ……. !

No – I had no idea at all that IT IS had dropped one and grouped them both together – it makes no difference to my farming practises. I have no reason to be up to date on such matters - I refer to the other half for comment, to which she replies that it is been resisted by a huge sector of the academic community – in particular in South East Asia. The irony is that Indicus can be genetically profiled quite distinctly from Taurus, and furthermore: as stated in reply to your first comment: there is a lot of Indicus trait in Taurus – in particular in South East Asia, but not the other way round. And thirdly, what does everyone now do: throw out or rewrite thousands and thousands of academic papers from Asia and Australia? Not likely. We are in agreement on this – it is a daft idea.

Your 3rd point: - is the hump passed on by the mtDNA?

Well, depending at what level animal geneticists “extract” info from, or at what level they focus in on – which in turn depends on the objective of the exercise, one can say "yes" or "no". Surely something can't be black and white at the same time.

Strictly speaking you raise a valid point. That said, the other half replies as follows:

“the significant content of literature existing today in Asia on the genetics and phylogeography of various cattle types & strains, has been collated by way of polymerase chain reactions on the mtDNA extracted from individual cattle”. i.e. I was making my point again st the background of how it has been established - and on this point, yes Chownah - evidance of the hump been passed on is established from extracted mtDNA. I am married to a woman who spends a large part of who professional time conducting just such reasearch.

So, my statement was made against the background of what I was trying to convey, and once again, yes – maybe I should have defined what I said a little better, but hel_l – just how far do I to take it before it becomes impractical and of little consequence to readers.

As for your other comments regards mtDNA, I am to tell you that as you suggested, you do need to do some reading up on the subject.

And as for your last comment –

I was making a statement regards the significance of the hump in the Thai indigenous cow, which in the absence of examining the DNA, is the/a significant physical trait which separates it from other cattle in Thailand which do not have a hump, and that if the cow you are looking at does not have a hump, it's not a Koa Lamphun indigenous Thai cow.

But to reply directly to your question: am I saying that any cow in Thailand with a hump formation on the back – irrespective of the size of the hump or the animal – is carrying a large whack of Bos Indicus mitochondrial DNA – yes, I am. The other half says, I could have said, "if mtDNA is extracted from any cow in Thailand with a hump, you will find a genetic link to Bos Indicus - and this includes Brahma. " Yer, okay.............. if you want to bring Brahma into this, and make the point that they are not as close as one would get to defining a Thai indigenous cow, please note: I did qualify what I said by further narrowing down the argument in the next sentance to name a cow(e.g. Kao Lamphun) and provide some basic physical features about it, like colour and horn characteristics, and then went on further to add an example of how input from other types of cattle would effect it.

So quite what the point was in raising the Brahma in the context you did, I have missed…… its a detail that in the context of the statement and who I was addressing, is a fine point that adds little in practical terms.

But for the record for all who have the time to read through all this (!!) - Brahma is as a recognised independant breed, much the same as is Kao Lumphun - and both come from Bos Indicus.

Perhaps my re-action to your points is wrong, I am no specialist in animal genetics, my other half is an authority on the subject (at least as far as cattle in Thailand go – and it is in no small way that the success of this farm is down to her contribution). However, in the context of this forum, it is a complete mute point – and of little practical interest to readers. I feel you focused in very specifically on a few points, that in an academic context, yes, could have been defined more clearly by me in the original posting – but, hel_l, to what end in the context of this forum?

Let’s keep it simple……

Nu'f said - time to have breakfast.

Tim

[chownah]

Maizefarmer,

Not wanting to belabor the fine points of our ongoing discussion and having been able to extract the information I was looking for concerning the many issues of discussion, I thank you for your reply and only wish to pursue one thing:

You quoted your wife as saying, "Taurus – which is often described as “Humpless Zebu”. I have looked far and wide on the internet and have not been able to find any reference to the term "Humpless Zebu"....none.....nada....zip.....nothing. The things you have quoted your wife as saying indicate that she has some knowledge of the historic aspects of cattle breeding so I take her comments seriously. Will you kindly ask her if she can find some links to sites on the internets where the term "Humpless Zebu" is used?.....of course disallowing any link to a ThaiVisa discussion of Indigenous Thai Cattle.

Thanks,

Chownah

Edited August 7, 2006 by chownah

[bina]

general side comment:I don't know the "in's & out's" of that, but it has something to do with the animals ability to survive comfortable on limited water resources.

cant find the info to prove what i'm saying (its in hebrew) but: the baladi goats (the desert beduin types ) also have the ability to make maximum use of water; they require less water (their milk production is less, but the milk is very rich ), as is camel milk btw (drank some the other day).the israeli desert pariah dog: canaan dog also have a higher tolerance for arid conditions i.e. less water

why would having a high tolerance for lack of water (or ability to survive better during drought) be so needed in thailand when there seems to be water for the most part available year round... thailand is not 'desert belt' and not arid?? i'm aware that issaan has droughts, but in the past i thought this happened less, and this is a direct result of modern poor agricultural practices (cash crops etc) that caused soil erosions etc...

btw, i love animal genetics find this fascinating stuff and its great that there's a large animal vet accessible on the forum!!! (and thai i'm assuming, and a woman at that!!!)

and yes the lactose intolerance thing would be the the reason for a cow that was not speciality bred for milk production...

so the thai cow is a 'heirloom livestock' species??

[Maizefarmer]

COLIN - you can haul yourslef up here anytime for a weekend - I'm not far from Sam Muang - which is on the 2216. But you're gong to have to hang on a while - I am in the middle of cutting down the first maize crop and getting the next lot planted so we are all working 14 - 16 hour days till I guess around the 22nd - 23rd.

BINA - Why would any a cow be a better cow in Thailand if it had an ability to withstand dry conditions??

Get your self up to North East Thailand for anytime end of November to end of March - and you'll see why. Its barren and its brown - there is no rain, everything becomes dormant.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

Hey - can someone explain to me how you send private message to people please?

What do I click - where do I click.

Yer go on have laugh - I don't know much about using the inter and computers.

Thanx

Tim

[teletiger]

Hey - can someone explain to me how you send private message to people please?

What do I click - where do I click.

Yer go on have laugh - I don't know much about using the inter and computers.

Thanx

Tim

Tim.....just leftclick on the name of the person you want to contact.

regards

[teletiger]

Bina....if you have Encarta, look up Thailand. It talks about "the barren plateau of Issan".

We're in the middle of a very wet Monsoon at the moment, yet SiSaket has not had rain for 5 months and the rice harvest there is ruined. ( so the news says )

regards

[RamdomChances]

The easy way is just to click on "reply" when you open the PM

[bina]

yeah i realize the barren plateau etc... but was that a result of bad agricultural /grazing practices or always like that???.... i dont think issaan always had saline water in its wells etc.... so the cows would have been developed for past conditions, not conditions that are fairly recent (salt mining, etc...)...

and then why didnt desert (arid condition ) type farming develop then?

i know there are droughts in issaan from the movies and from friends etc that i speak to although when u speak to thais in general, u get the impression that water is every where... i'm always horrified on the throwaway style of water usage, coming from a water aware country... and the thai here cant understand when we yell about long showers, water veggies everyday, dumping water on the ground and not in gardens/lawns etc... i had to explain about droughts when i was in ban chiang, to school kids, they had no concept....

so back to the cows: anyone want to answer?

[Maizefarmer]

Bina - its always been like that - but "that" is a bit of a misnomer actually, because as soon as you move off the platuea into the surrounding hills, it becomes one of the lushest and least spolit areas of Thialand. It is remote and isolated with little infrastructure - it is behind the rest of the country.

Salt on the platuea has always been there - its the geology of the area and not from overgrazing, but natural.

Tim

[BambinA]

What Are/is Indigenous Thai Cattle?

let me think ..

em em emm ....i forget it

but i know what are/is DANGEROUS that cattle

- > (a) sick buffaloe(s)

he/she can make u paid plenty bucks

dangerous not indigenous

(same same but difference ..lol)

[bina]

the salt of course was always there; bt between overgrazing and over use of water, the water table changes.... btw, does this mean that the issaan thai cow can take higher salt content in forage like other mammmals do in areas with higher salts in forage/water?? wonder what that would have done for milk production?

ethnically then, the thai cow should be a lao cow, or issaan cow

[Maizefarmer]

Bina

Do you mean a Thai cow breed with genetic characteristics specificaly for Isaan, or do you mean a generic Thai cow living in Isaan.

No such thing as the former, and in the case of the latter - no the do not have any significant ability to handle the high salt content.

AS for a Thai cow (Lamphung) - yes, its more comfortable with Isaan conditions than other stock.

Just by way of background - the so-called indigenous Thai cow originally came into Thialand from the North-East (Cambodia & Laos) - which means it had to spend time in Isaan to pass through to the rest of the country. This is many moons ago - and before you ask, no I have no idea, what characteristics were established at various points in its migration with people as the moved down from the Northern parts of Asia - as is the origion of a lot Thais.

Tim