Grouting question

[fdimike]

You can play semantics all you want. However, the fact remains that concrete can be made to be waterproof. Here's one companies solution to this problem: http://www.kryton.com/products/krystol-internal-membrane-kim/. There are other addiditives being used by other companies as well.

[fdimike]

Here's another companies solution to waterproofing concrete. http://www.lafargetarmac.com/solutions/readymix/topproof/

I have no idea what addiditive was used by our local CPAC readi mix contractor who supplied the concrete for our swimming pool and I cannot tell if it was effective or not because the pool is covered in tile.

[Anthony5]

You can play semantics all you want. However, the fact remains that concrete can be made to be waterproof. Here's one companies solution to this problem: http://www.kryton.com/products/krystol-internal-membrane-kim/. There are other addiditives being used by other companies as well.

I agree, someone on the job for several decades with a multinational, specialized in this kind of contructions, knows probably less than someone behind a keyboard on a Thai forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterproofing

Over the past two decades, the construction industry has had technological advances in waterproofing materials, including integral waterproofing systems as well as more advanced membrane materials. Integral systems such as hycrete work within the matrix of a concrete structure, giving the concrete itself a waterproof quality. There are two main types of integral waterproofing systems: the hydrophilic and the hydrophobic systems. A hydrophilic system typically uses a crystallization technology that replaces the water in the concrete with insoluble crystals. Various brands available in the market claim similar properties, but not all can react with a wide range of cement hydration by-products and thus require caution. Hydrophobic systems use fatty acids to block pores within the concrete, preventing water passage.

[fdimike]

It seems to me your latest post just backs up my previous post says regarding waterproofing concrete. BTW One can learn an awful lot by simply reading. Incidently I am not just someone sitting behind a keyboard. I learned about the construction trade with hands on courtesy of my now deceased father a long time ago.

[Valentine]

When [ouring concrete it is extremely important to use a vibrator to release the air inside the concrete mix.

[Chaichara]

A somewhat older thread, but looking for stuff about regrouting pools I just came across it.

Baht 70,000 to regrout a pool that size is excessive, even when taking into consideration the cost of the expensive Weber or Crocodile pool grout, labour time, labour salaries, and corporate overheads & profit for a bona fide pool firm. Do they all quote that much in Pattaya? Sounds as if there is some kind of cartel in operation.

[SwimmingPoolsThailand]

Other question.... If I don't do the grouting, does this bear any possible consecutive damage or is it just cosmetics?

Grout is very important and it is also important to use a grout that is designed for use in swimming pools. (the link is for information and the additional product information we provide - if you live near a store that stocks it you can probably save yourself the high shipping costs when purchasing from us.

Waterproof grout is an important additional water barrier. Missing or poorly applied grout can allow the water with its aggressive chemicals to eat away the tile adhesive under the tiles. This is the main cause for loose or broken tiles in swimming pools. Both a pH too high AND too low will attack cementitious products.

Done properly, with the right materials, and the water kept at a correct balance, grout can last for years - 8, 10, or even 12 years are no exceptions. Otherwise, pools quite often need regrouting after only 2 years.

[mikejphuket]

I have a few tiles (4x4") that have come loose in my pool. Fortunately close to the surface level so easy enough to lower pool level and replace. I am wondering if there is any special kind of mortar I should be using. This is a small job, but does cause a leak that I would like to correct. Thank you

[sappersrest]

Have a chat with the forum sponsor, remember a few tiles can easily become a few sq meters once you start.

[SwimmingPoolsThailand]

Pool tiles MUST be laid in the correct manner and ONLY using genuine tile adhesives and tile grouts that are specially developed for this purpose. The instructions for using and laying are on the bags and tubs in both English and Thai.

See the products at this page on our Swimming Pools Thailand web site. These products may be available locally and in more handy quantities.

[mikejphuket]

Thank you very much- just the info I am looking for.

[kamalabob2]

I've owned a swimming pool in Buriram province that was designed and built by JD Pools in 2007 and 2008. Salt Chlorinator was an extra cost option. I originally did not use Weber Swimming Pool Tile Grout. I've since had a bit of work done on my swimming pool and observed the renovations done in a neighbor's swimming pool in my small Buriram town. The 18.5 kilo buckets of Weber Swimming Pool tile grout and case lot purchases of Weber in smaller 3 kg buckets are certainly not all the same price at the Buriram Home Improvement stores I obtained prices and bought the tile grout. I was invited to listen to the presentation and training seminar of Crocodile swimming pool tile grout technical trainer in Buriram. I've paid an experienced Surin Based swimming pool contractor as has my friend for upgrades to our swimming pool control rooms and the actual tile grout. I certainly agree with Swimming Pools Thailand on post #37 and post #40. The swimming pool contractor I hired gave me choices of which tile grout to consider and I shopped for the lowest price in Buriram province.

[sappersrest]

Some useful info here.

http://www.weberthai.com/en/tile-grouts/help-and-advice/problem-and-solution/grouting-in-swimming-pool-spa-and-sauna.html

2 part epoxy grout is becoming more popular but adds quite a cost to a project, but has a longer life.

[sappersrest]

On has to ask the question why has my grout disappeared?

Some would say that it was the builders fault using incorrect grout or mixing procedures.

Others may say that it is the pool operators/owners fault, perhaps it is a mixture of both.

To keep your pool in top condition consideration must be given to balanced water i.e. the water is not corrosive or scale forming.

Corrosive water will eat way at grout, damage poolside fixtures and fittings, scale forming water will coat fixtures and fittings but the effect is more aesthetic than damaging especially with modern materials. to this end I have found a reasonably good online calculator to help you determine wether your pool water is corrosive or otherwise. Also it is the first one I have seen that takes into account of cynuric acid.

For those of you have salt pools nothing is to be gained by having to much salt in the pool go with the manufactures guidlines

http://www.pentairpool.com/support/calculators/langelier/

Also ensure if your pool is to be re grouted make sure the contractor removes all the old grout before applying new grout and sufficient time is left before refilling with water., on that note remember pools must not be filled or emptied no more than 750 mm per 24 hours or 31mm per hour

Some other useful calculators as well on that page.

[kamalabob2]

I was picking up some hardware items near the ring road in Buriram today. I noted that isaan Pools was picking up a pallet of Weber Swimming Pool Tile Grout for two different swimming pool building projects in Buriram. I was given the business card of an English speaking representative of Weber and a brochure in English of Weber Home Building and Swimming Pool Materials if I had any questions for my new home under construction near Kaen Dong. After my JD Pools customer experience I am more keen to hire a swimming pool builder based in Surin province or Buriram province that has English as a native language.

[Chaichara]

I think there's only one native English pool company in Surin and I belive it is one of the sponsors here.

If its the one I'm thinking of they are even recommended by Swimming Pools Thailand for whom Surin is just too far away.

[TonyBB]

I realize this is an old thread, but I've just learned some things re. pool grout that may help others. Our pool in Phuket needed re-grouting last year, at the age of about 7 years old since construction. We had this done and one year later, the grout is coming out, basically dissolving in our pool, and we are faced with re-grouting again. This time after just 1 year!  The contractor who did the last job refuses to take any responsibility. The grout he used was Weber.color HR ("high resistance") which is intended for pool use. If you read the Weber product specs, there are several application tips, e.g. leaving it for 3 days to set before refilling pool, and my guess is that our contractor may have not followed these requirements. We're not here full time to watch over stuff like this, so we don't know.

 

In any event, what I learned today is that there is a higher grade of pool grout, "Weber.color poxy" and it is available in Thailand.  It's an epoxy based grout which is supposed to have higher resistance to chlorine, water acidity, etc. It's in the Weber catalog - link provided above in this thread.

 

One thing I have learned the hard way in Thailand, and unfortunately keep re-learning:  Contractors often will use the cheapest material and will not let you know about choices you have. This is true when getting your car fixed, getting work done on the house, even getting a tooth filling at the dentist. By default it is always assumed: Use the cheapest available materials. 

 

Please note, I am not criticizing any of the Weber products. They seem like a good company. I am just pointing out that contractors always want to hit the lowest price points and use the lowest cost materials they can find... without explaining to you what the alternatives are.  Then of course the quality of the contractors' workmanship is entirely another issue... which readers of this forum know about already.

 

I cannot convince our previous contractor to help us. He refuses to re-do the job and take responsibility for the labor cost if I purchase the new material. So we're just going to bite the bullet and re-do the job with a new contractor. This time I will purchase the material myself and get the premium grade. This time I will schedule the job to be done while we are here.

[johng]

Whenever having work done  car, motorbike, house,aircon   you have to always be there and watch them

even then some will try "tricks"  if they think they can get away with it.

[petermik]

Surely you are capable of DIY ? you will find it rewarding and cost saving,allow a couple of days to do the job and following the manufacturers instructions.....

[sappersrest]

From a previous post no 44

 

"Also ensure if your pool is to be re grouted make sure the contractor removes all the old grout before applying new grout and sufficient time is left before refilling with water., on that note remember pools must not be filled or emptied no more than 750 mm per 24 hours or 31mm per hour"

 

 

I can assure you that  to apply a two part epoxy grout properly is no mean feat, and not to be carried out by even  the most ardent DIY person.

[TonyBB]

6 hours ago, petermik said:

Surely you are capable of DIY ? you will find it rewarding and cost saving,allow a couple of days to do the job and following the manufacturers instructions.....

Capable?  hmm, maybe.  Willing to sweat in the heat a couple of days doing this job? Not me!

[petermik]

3 minutes ago, TonyBB said:

Capable?  hmm, maybe.  Willing to sweat in the heat a couple of days doing this job? Not me!

Lazy bugger.............

[TonyBB]

Yes indeed!

[Naam]

when after seven years or a shorter period a pool needs regrouting it's 99% of the cases not the contractor's shoddy workmanship or the quality of the grout material. neither the average Farang nor the average poolboy has the faintest idea of optimal pool chemistry. that also applies to Somchai Poolbuilder and pool shops where basic and utmost important chemicals (Sodium Bicarbonate and Calcium Chloride) can't be bought and testing equipment available is limited to Cl and pH. 

 

it seems to me that "total alkalinity" and "total hardness" are obscene expressions and the chemicals to achieve the correct pool water balance which is not aggressively dissolving grout are on the list of illegal drugs.

 

oh well...

[sappersrest]

Naam is absolutely correct, I went to a pool and did some water testing for an organization and found that the cynuric acid was 480 ppm, a company that was carry out maintenance told me , I was lying and as they tested it and it was 100 ppm. just because the kit they had would only read up to 100 ,that was the figure they used.

Try to explain about diluting the sample and using a multiplier was beyond them.  The boss was not a Thai,whom claimed he  had years of experience.?????

 

 

[jimmybkk]

As a follow up to this - I have been doing the grouting myself and I can't say it's been a lot of fun. I started out by using a power washer to get rid of the old grout and clean the joints. This was effective but resulted in a large number of tiles being dislodged, some of which broke upon landing. I discovered that the company that laid the tiles originally had opted for the dollop-of-adhesive-on-the-back-of-the-tile-and-stick-it-to-the-wall technique, instead of spreading the wall with mortar/adhesive and bedding the tiles into it, which I believe is the correct approach. The result of doing it the wrong way with the dollop is that that there were gaps all around the back of the tile, except where the dollop was... This proved to be a real headache and is one of the reasons why the tiles were being dislodged by the pressure washer.

 

I discovered that the reason for the wide and deep joints was because when the pool was built the builders had used the standard trick of using a tile turned on its side as a spacer, and because the tiles they had used were very thick the joints were very wide... I also discovered that the tiles they had used were no longer available and so I had to make do with the closest match I could find.

 

I started out using only grout to fill the joints and it was a nightmare. I used the Crocodile brand swimming pool grout and it is not the easiest stuff to use. You don't get a lot of time to work with it and those wide joints with the gaps behind the tiles (around the dollops) meant that I was having to mix up fairly large batches at a time and was going through loads of the stuff -  and if I misjudged a tricky section or got distracted for whatever reason it would go off before I got round to using it. Loads was getting wasted but if I reduced the batch size it seemed like I was spending more time mixing than I was grouting.

 

So then I changed tack and started using a regular sand & cement mortar with a bit of latex liquid mixed in as a base in the joints - this was a huge improvement - so much easier to work with and a heck of a lot cheaper than using all grout. I left the mortar recessed about 1/2" from the face of the tiles and roughed up the surface of the mortar a little before it went off to give the grout something to stick to. I left the mortar for a week to ensure it was fully cured and then went round with the grout. I would highly recommend this approach if you have wide and deep joints like mine.

 

If I was to do the job again I would probably re-tile the pool completely, and make sure the joints were kept to the bare minimum width. I would also make sure i had around 100 extra tiles to keep for replacements in the future.

 

A couple of tips I picked up along the way - when grouting vertical walls you should start at the bottom. Let gravity work with you. And the most important lesson i learned is that whether it's grout or mortar work, you should always wet your joints first. You can do this either with a spray bottle or with a paintbrush dipped in water - the reason for this is that if you apply your mortar or grout to a bone dry surface the dryness of the surface will suck some of the moisture from your grout/mortar mix, causing it to cure too quickly which will result in a weaker grout/mortar.

 

[Anythingleft?]

6 hours ago, jimmybkk said:

As a follow up to this - I have been doing the grouting myself and I can't say it's been a lot of fun. I started out by using a power washer to get rid of the old grout and clean the joints. This was effective but resulted in a large number of tiles being dislodged, some of which broke upon landing. I discovered that the company that laid the tiles originally had opted for the dollop-of-adhesive-on-the-back-of-the-tile-and-stick-it-to-the-wall technique, instead of spreading the wall with mortar/adhesive and bedding the tiles into it, which I believe is the correct approach. The result of doing it the wrong way with the dollop is that that there were gaps all around the back of the tile, except where the dollop was... This proved to be a real headache and is one of the reasons why the tiles were being dislodged by the pressure washer.

 

I discovered that the reason for the wide and deep joints was because when the pool was built the builders had used the standard trick of using a tile turned on its side as a spacer, and because the tiles they had used were very thick the joints were very wide... I also discovered that the tiles they had used were no longer available and so I had to make do with the closest match I could find.

 

I started out using only grout to fill the joints and it was a nightmare. I used the Crocodile brand swimming pool grout and it is not the easiest stuff to use. You don't get a lot of time to work with it and those wide joints with the gaps behind the tiles (around the dollops) meant that I was having to mix up fairly large batches at a time and was going through loads of the stuff -  and if I misjudged a tricky section or got distracted for whatever reason it would go off before I got round to using it. Loads was getting wasted but if I reduced the batch size it seemed like I was spending more time mixing than I was grouting.

 

So then I changed tack and started using a regular sand & cement mortar with a bit of latex liquid mixed in as a base in the joints - this was a huge improvement - so much easier to work with and a heck of a lot cheaper than using all grout. I left the mortar recessed about 1/2" from the face of the tiles and roughed up the surface of the mortar a little before it went off to give the grout something to stick to. I left the mortar for a week to ensure it was fully cured and then went round with the grout. I would highly recommend this approach if you have wide and deep joints like mine.

 

If I was to do the job again I would probably re-tile the pool completely, and make sure the joints were kept to the bare minimum width. I would also make sure i had around 100 extra tiles to keep for replacements in the future.

 

A couple of tips I picked up along the way - when grouting vertical walls you should start at the bottom. Let gravity work with you. And the most important lesson i learned is that whether it's grout or mortar work, you should always wet your joints first. You can do this either with a spray bottle or with a paintbrush dipped in water - the reason for this is that if you apply your mortar or grout to a bone dry surface the dryness of the surface will suck some of the moisture from your grout/mortar mix, causing it to cure too quickly which will result in a weaker grout/mortar.

 

Well done for sticking at it and having a go, this again shows that inferior work from the outset causes an awful lot of hardships and costs later on

At least you will now have the satisfaction of knowing that you have done it to the very best of your abilities and will probably appreciate the end result  far more than you otherwise would have using another local builder

[sappersrest]

Once you have completed this make sure your water is in balance by using the langlier or palin method for calculating balanced water. Once you have achieved a neutral balance i.e. non corrosive , slightly scale forming is acceptable your grout should last for 15 years or more.

 

Buy a good test kit  and do a bit of reading up on balanced water using the above calculation methods. the pallin method is the only one to use if you have a salt pool.