Fired Israeli minister slams Netanyahu for being 'out of touch'

[Ulysses G.]

Netanyahu has achieved nothing for Israel.

One of many false claims from the usual subjects. There was the release of Gilad Shalit, the fence on the Egyptian border and the OECD voted unanimously to invite Israel to join, ignoring Palestinian objections. The OECD lauded Israel's scientific and technological progress and described it as having "produced outstanding outcomes on a world scale."

[Ulysses G.]

France recognised Palestine last week and more will come.

So what? It really does nothing. Recognizing a Palestinian state has not caused any sharp or meaningful changes, and bears no authority to alter the status of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. Europe is pledging support to Palestinians on one hand and on the other, Britain and Sweden’s trade with Israel is on the rise.

Any want-to-be nation, wishing to declare independence, should meet three crucial elements: A strong central government, control of defined territory and security. The Palestinian Authority does not meet any of them.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

Lapid is the self proclaimed lapdog of the Obama regime and his words should be taken accordingly. I do hope said regime attempts to sabotage Netanyahu's reelection as nothing would do more to assure it. The reality is that the Arab states surrounding Israel don't give a stuff about the Palestinians and are currently cooperating with Netanyahu on areas of mutual interest, which boils down to thwarting any policies the current U.S regime adopts.

http://app.debka.com/p/article/24285/Netanyahu%E2%80%99s-epic-understandings-with-Egyptian-Saudi-and-UAE-rulers-%E2%80%93-a-potential-campaign-weapon

[Morch]

Netanyahu has achieved nothing for Israel. Very high cost of living thanks to crazy ill thought out military offensives in Gaza and the settlements fomenting more hostility in the West Bank.

The so called immigrant settlers and the ultra orthodox religious zealots contribute nothing to the economy but are the root of a lot of problems for Israel. In the case of the latter they refuse to work or join the military and appear to spend all their time creating ever increasing families funded by the Israeli taxpayers.

There are others in the more moderate Israel political scene with progressive views.

Israeli opposition leader, Isaac Herzog, says it's "absolutely possible" to make peace with the Palestinians. Speaking at the Brookings Institution in Washington DC, the leader of the Israeli Labour Party says it is a mistake to assume that peace is unreachable. He says that if he forms the next government he will lead Israel in a different direction

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/dec/06/israeli-opposition-leader-isaac-herzog-peace-video

My money is on Tzipi Livni.

Whatever the hot air from the usual posters that derails threads the facts are that Israel will have to accept a compromise.

France recognised Palestine last week and more will come.

The so-called "opposition leader" currently heads a party with 15 seats in parliament (out of 120). If one includes Lapid's (the

fired minister) party of 19 seats on the opposition side, then even the "opposition leader" title is questionable. I would take all

statements made prior to elections with a grain of salt, though. Saying that peace is "absolutely possible" costs nothing, and

amounts to little more than a sales phrase, while disregarding severe difficulties and hurdles.

So your money is on Tzipi Livni, then? Regarding what, exactly? Coming out as the new prime minister after the upcoming

elections? To be a part of whatever coalition government forms after the upcoming election? To get re-elected again as a

parliament member?

This topic (and indeed, these elections) is not essentially about peace between Israel and the Palestinians, even if some

posters choose to view the elections as a sort of referendum on this issue.

[Morch]

Netanyahu has achieved nothing for Israel.

One of many false claims from the usual subjects. There was the release of Gilad Shalit, the fence on the Egyptian border and the OECD voted unanimously to invite Israel to join, ignoring Palestinian objections. The OECD lauded Israel's scientific and technological progress and described it as having "produced outstanding outcomes on a world scale."

The release of Gilad Shalit was (and is) still a somewhat controversial issue in Israel. Well, not the release itself, rather the

terms agreed to, and future outcomes. Even choosing to ignore that, still need to demonstrate how it was mainly or solely

Netanyahu's achievement.

The fence along the Egyptian border was long overdue. Netanyahu's government (as were previous governments) was often

criticized regarding lack of progress and allocations of budgets. Again, the main association here would be of delays rather

than some swift achievement.

OECD praise notwithstanding, it refers to overall statistics, business trends and generally - things that look good for both big

business and government, less so for the average citizen. Cost of living has constantly been an issue, as well as quality of

life (along various dimensions and parameters). If there is one thing uniting left and right wings of the political map is that

Netanyhu's reign(s) was not exactly a beneficial one for middle and lower income populace.

[Morch]

Lapid is the self proclaimed lapdog of the Obama regime and his words should be taken accordingly. I do hope said regime attempts to sabotage Netanyahu's reelection as nothing would do more to assure it. The reality is that the Arab states surrounding Israel don't give a stuff about the Palestinians and are currently cooperating with Netanyahu on areas of mutual interest, which boils down to thwarting any policies the current U.S regime adopts.

http://app.debka.com/p/article/24285/Netanyahu%E2%80%99s-epic-understandings-with-Egyptian-Saudi-and-UAE-rulers-%E2%80%93-a-potential-campaign-weapon

Even the "article" quoted does not use anything resembling to "lapdog", nor did Lapid ever proclaim it. For those suffering from slight amnesia, Netanyau himself was the one attempting to meddle in USA elections, and is known to have very close connections with certain influence groups. That said, the USA government (and other elements, of course) were (are) always trying to effect the outcome of elections in Israel - usually, without great success (interesting commentary by Aaron Miller on that, recently).

Citing many things appearing on Debka as "facts" is amusing, to say the least. Rather, one may at least point out that Debka columns are decidedly right-wing. If one wishes to delve further, a certain relevant personal grudge may come to light....

[dexterm]

France recognised Palestine last week and more will come.

So what? It really does nothing. Recognizing a Palestinian state has not caused any sharp or meaningful changes, and bears no authority to alter the status of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. Europe is pledging support to Palestinians on one hand and on the other, Britain and Sweden’s trade with Israel is on the rise.

Any want-to-be nation, wishing to declare independence, should meet three crucial elements: A strong central government, control of defined territory and security. The Palestinian Authority does not meet any of them.

Recognition of Palestine is moving in the right direction though. I hope that it eventually translates into sanctions against Israel by EU its largest trading partner if Netanyahu wins and moves further to the right turning Israel into a more isolated pariah and apartheid state of Zionist fanatics.

Regarding borders..it would be nice if Israel ever got around to defining its own...they seem to keep moving.

[Ulysses G.]

"I hope that it eventually translates into sanctions"

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. European trade is increasing and that is unlikely to change. Israel has too much to offer in certain fields.

[Morch]

France recognised Palestine last week and more will come.

So what? It really does nothing. Recognizing a Palestinian state has not caused any sharp or meaningful changes, and bears no authority to alter the status of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. Europe is pledging support to Palestinians on one hand and on the other, Britain and Sweden’s trade with Israel is on the rise.

Any want-to-be nation, wishing to declare independence, should meet three crucial elements: A strong central government, control of defined territory and security. The Palestinian Authority does not meet any of them.

Recognition of Palestine is moving in the right direction though. I hope that it eventually translates into sanctions against Israel by EU its largest trading partner if Netanyahu wins and moves further to the right turning Israel into a more isolated pariah and apartheid state of Zionist fanatics.

Regarding borders..it would be nice if Israel ever got around to defining its own...they seem to keep moving.

And how would a Center/left led coalition manage things better? That is, if they win the election. No one is currently forecasting a decisive victory, so in all probability it would end with a compromise between the agendas of different coalition partners. Not all potential partners see eye to eye on the Palestinian issue.

Disregarding Netanyahu's many faults, low approval rating, and obvious failures - there is not competing candidate that got something much better to offer (in terms of leadership, personality, integrity etc..). Indeed, the call to arms taken by most of the opposition parties is "Just not Netanyahu". Doesn't exactly reflect that positively upon the competition and doesn't do all that much to inspire confidence. If the best they can say for themselves may be summed as "vote for us because we ain't him", then alright....there's a point there, just not a very appealing one.

And things do look different once a side is in power. Easy enough to float peace slogans from the opposition benches, much harder to transform them into realities, especially considering political necessities, public opinion and the inherent difficulties of the Palestinian side.

Then again, these election are not revolving, so far, around the Palestinian issue. It is one of the topics of the day, but not the only one.

[dexterm]

France recognised Palestine last week and more will come.

So what? It really does nothing. Recognizing a Palestinian state has not caused any sharp or meaningful changes, and bears no authority to alter the status of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. Europe is pledging support to Palestinians on one hand and on the other, Britain and Sweden’s trade with Israel is on the rise.

Any want-to-be nation, wishing to declare independence, should meet three crucial elements: A strong central government, control of defined territory and security. The Palestinian Authority does not meet any of them.

Recognition of Palestine is moving in the right direction though. I hope that it eventually translates into sanctions against Israel by EU its largest trading partner if Netanyahu wins and moves further to the right turning Israel into a more isolated pariah and apartheid state of Zionist fanatics.

Regarding borders..it would be nice if Israel ever got around to defining its own...they seem to keep moving.

And how would a Center/left led coalition manage things better? That is, if they win the election.

A centrist party government would not push plans to make Israel a Jewish supremacist state, nor include members of fascist and racist parties who now openly talk about further ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

If Netanyahu wins and the above apartheid policies materialize, then I think it will just become another nail in the coffin of Israel’s future... endgame is closer..and not a snowball's chance in hell of Israel ever joining the EU, and just the reverse...EU sanctions.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Scott

[Jay Sata]

I was trying to think of a reply and then Dexterm came up with this which really says it all.

"A centrist party government would not push plans to make Israel a Jewish supremacist state, nor include members of fascist and racist parties who now openly talk about further ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

If Netanyahu wins and the above apartheid policies materialize, then I think it will just become another nail in the coffin of Israels future... endgame is closer..and not a snowball's chance in hell of Israel ever joining the EU, and just the reverse...EU sanctions."

[Ulysses G.]

Anyone fair, who has reads your and dexterm's posts knows that you NEVER have anything good to say about Israel, so who is going to take your opinions on what they should do or what will happen to them seriously? It would be like asking Tom what Jerry should do to avoid being eaten.

[dexterm]

Anyone fair, who has reads your and dexterm's posts knows that you NEVER have anything good to say about Israel, so who is going to take your opinions on what they should do or what will happen to them seriously? It would be like asking Tom what Jerry should do to avoid being eaten.

4 desperado fallacies ..appeal to false authority (who decides the "anyone fair"), ad hominem attacks, false analogy, and red herring. We must have hit a raw truth nerve, JS.

Notwithstanding that. If you read more carefully, UG, you’ll see I am promoting the centrist parties as best for Israel’s future. I think there is more hope of a negotiated peace agreement with them in a just 2 state solution...the only chance Israel has of retaining any of its Jewish identity. The further Israel moves to the right, the sooner its days are numbered. A one state solution will see Israel eventually swamped by Palestinians sooner. After a period of intensified apartheid, the EU will cry enough already and impose sanctions. Palestinians will be become fully equal citizens.

It may take decades but Israel will not survive as a Jewish state anyway. Natural transmigration and global political awareness will eventually transform Israel into a truly democratic state where no-one will give a hoot about religion or ethnicity. It’s just the natural evolution of history.

[Ulysses G.]

If you read more carefully, UG, youll see I am promoting the centrist parties as best for Israels future.

I used to read your posts very carefully to find and point out the many fabrications, but don't bother much anymore as your many dishonest posts and EXTREME bias towards Israel have been exposed repeatedly. They are like a broken record playing over and over again.

If Netanyahu is reelected - and there is a good chance that he will be - it will be back to business as usual without a lot of changes one way, or the other.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

If you read more carefully, UG, youll see I am promoting the centrist parties as best for Israels future.

I used to read your posts very carefully to find and point out the many fabrications, but don't bother much anymore as your many dishonest posts and EXTREME bias towards Israel have been exposed repeatedly. They are like a broken record playing over and over again.

If Netanyahu is reelected - and there is a good chance that he will be - it will be back to business as usual without a lot of changes one way, or the other.

Sadly and ironically it is moderates like me who are better friends of Israel than fanatical Zionists such as yourself, who are driving Israel deeper into isolation.

[Ulysses G.]

"Moderates". Tell that to someone who has not been reading your posts.

[ggold]

If you read more carefully, UG, youll see I am promoting the centrist parties as best for Israels future.

I used to read your posts very carefully to find and point out the many fabrications, but don't bother much anymore as your many dishonest posts and EXTREME bias towards Israel have been exposed repeatedly. They are like a broken record playing over and over again.

If Netanyahu is reelected - and there is a good chance that he will be - it will be back to business as usual without a lot of changes one way, or the other.

Sadly and ironically it is moderates like me who are better friends of Israel than fanatical Zionists such as yourself, who are driving Israel deeper into isolation.

How ironical indeed, who would have thought that someone who continually accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing would be a better friend to Israel than an Israeli.

The idiot has escaped the asylum!

[ggold]

Anyone fair, who has reads your and dexterm's posts knows that you NEVER have anything good to say about Israel, so who is going to take your opinions on what they should do or what will happen to them seriously? It would be like asking Tom what Jerry should do to avoid being eaten.

4 desperado fallacies ..appeal to false authority (who decides the "anyone fair"), ad hominem attacks, false analogy, and red herring. We must have hit a raw truth nerve, JS.

Notwithstanding that. If you read more carefully, UG, you’ll see I am promoting the centrist parties as best for Israel’s future. I think there is more hope of a negotiated peace agreement with them in a just 2 state solution...the only chance Israel has of retaining any of its Jewish identity. The further Israel moves to the right, the sooner its days are numbered. A one state solution will see Israel eventually swamped by Palestinians sooner. After a period of intensified apartheid, the EU will cry enough already and impose sanctions. Palestinians will be become fully equal citizens.

It may take decades but Israel will not survive as a Jewish state anyway. Natural transmigration and global political awareness will eventually transform Israel into a truly democratic state where no-one will give a hoot about religion or ethnicity. It’s just the natural evolution of history.

"Natural transmigration and global political awareness will eventually transform Israel into a truly democratic state where no-one will give a hoot about religion or ethnicity. It’s just the natural evolution of history."

This really proves you have no idea of what you speak. The Muslims are on the verge of declaring a holy war and you think Israel would become a none religious state of one sort or another. Tell that to the Arabs they will say you are crazy! they would be right.

you have the nerve to say "4 desperado fallacies ..appeal to false authority (who decides the "anyone fair"), ad hominem attacks,

false analogy, and red herring"

So my question is why do you say the things you say, when they are false analogies, and red herrings, and the ad hominem well shall we say insults that you spread with falsehoods and then claim to be a friend to Israel. You are a piece of work indeed.

Edited December 9, 2014 by ggold

[dexterm]

If you read more carefully, UG, youll see I am promoting the centrist parties as best for Israels future.

I used to read your posts very carefully to find and point out the many fabrications, but don't bother much anymore as your many dishonest posts and EXTREME bias towards Israel have been exposed repeatedly. They are like a broken record playing over and over again.

If Netanyahu is reelected - and there is a good chance that he will be - it will be back to business as usual without a lot of changes one way, or the other.

Sadly and ironically it is moderates like me who are better friends of Israel than fanatical Zionists such as yourself, who are driving Israel deeper into isolation.

How ironical indeed, who would have thought that someone who continually accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing would be a better friend to Israel than an Israeli.

The idiot has escaped the asylum!

Next time you are in Jerusalem take a stroll through..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_the_Righteous_Among_the_Nations

You will find dozens of gentiles who acted against their own government which was ethnic cleansing Jews at the time. It's a pity their fellow citizens didn't emulate their bravery rather than being mere sheeple.

Strange how history repeats itself.

[ggold]

I used to read your posts very carefully to find and point out the many fabrications, but don't bother much anymore as your many dishonest posts and EXTREME bias towards Israel have been exposed repeatedly. They are like a broken record playing over and over again.

If Netanyahu is reelected - and there is a good chance that he will be - it will be back to business as usual without a lot of changes one way, or the other.

Sadly and ironically it is moderates like me who are better friends of Israel than fanatical Zionists such as yourself, who are driving Israel deeper into isolation.

How ironical indeed, who would have thought that someone who continually accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing would be a better friend to Israel than an Israeli.

The idiot has escaped the asylum!

Next time you are in Jerusalem take a stroll through..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_the_Righteous_Among_the_Nations

You will find dozens of gentiles who acted against their own government which was ethnic cleansing Jews at the time. It's a pity their fellow citizens didn't emulate their bravery rather than being mere sheeple.

Strange how history repeats itself.

another insult from a friend of Israel.

So tell me please if you understand the meaning of "ethnic cleansing" How many Arabs have been murdered on a daily basis in Israel. I would have thought someone who claims this is happening would be able to say how many arabs were put in ovens to hide the bodies from the world. Are we talking 100's 1000's or would it be millions?

Where has it been reported that Arabs are fleeing the west bank for other arab countries to get away from the slaughter you continually claim is happening? If there is ethnic cleansing, why are there more arabs in Israel now then there were two years ago? SO WHERE IS THIS ETHNIC CLEANSING HAPPENING please enlighten me?

Edited December 9, 2014 by ggold

[Morch]

So what? It really does nothing. Recognizing a Palestinian state has not caused any sharp or meaningful changes, and bears no authority to alter the status of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. Europe is pledging support to Palestinians on one hand and on the other, Britain and Sweden’s trade with Israel is on the rise.

Any want-to-be nation, wishing to declare independence, should meet three crucial elements: A strong central government, control of defined territory and security. The Palestinian Authority does not meet any of them.

Recognition of Palestine is moving in the right direction though. I hope that it eventually translates into sanctions against Israel by EU its largest trading partner if Netanyahu wins and moves further to the right turning Israel into a more isolated pariah and apartheid state of Zionist fanatics.

Regarding borders..it would be nice if Israel ever got around to defining its own...they seem to keep moving.

And how would a Center/left led coalition manage things better? That is, if they win the election.

A centrist party government would not push plans to make Israel a Jewish supremacist state, nor include members of fascist and racist parties who now openly talk about further ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

If Netanyahu wins and the above apartheid policies materialize, then I think it will just become another nail in the coffin of Israel’s future... endgame is closer..and not a snowball's chance in hell of Israel ever joining the EU, and just the reverse...EU sanctions.

The right wing's recent attempts at fascist and racist legislation (no argument there), do not necessarily bear directly on Israel's conflict with the Palestinians. They may have long reaching consequences regarding domestic and social affairs, and possibly negative effects on Israel's foreign relationship with Western countries.

Granted that a more moderate coalition government will not go there, but still does not answer the question of how will a center or center/left government will be better able to deal with Palestinian issues (given previously detailed constraints).

[Morch]

Anyone fair, who has reads your and dexterm's posts knows that you NEVER have anything good to say about Israel, so who is going to take your opinions on what they should do or what will happen to them seriously? It would be like asking Tom what Jerry should do to avoid being eaten.

4 desperado fallacies ..appeal to false authority (who decides the "anyone fair"), ad hominem attacks, false analogy, and red herring. We must have hit a raw truth nerve, JS.

Notwithstanding that. If you read more carefully, UG, you’ll see I am promoting the centrist parties as best for Israel’s future. I think there is more hope of a negotiated peace agreement with them in a just 2 state solution...the only chance Israel has of retaining any of its Jewish identity. The further Israel moves to the right, the sooner its days are numbered. A one state solution will see Israel eventually swamped by Palestinians sooner. After a period of intensified apartheid, the EU will cry enough already and impose sanctions. Palestinians will be become fully equal citizens.

It may take decades but Israel will not survive as a Jewish state anyway. Natural transmigration and global political awareness will eventually transform Israel into a truly democratic state where no-one will give a hoot about religion or ethnicity. It’s just the natural evolution of history.

A center (or rather, center/left) led coalition government may be better suited to reach an agreement with the Palestinians (assuming the Palestinians are up for it and that they sort their domestic issues), but probably less so when it comes to achieving public consensus over reached agreement or passing relevant legislation with a decent margin.

[Scott]

Inflammatory post and replies removed.

[ggold]

Netanyahu has achieved nothing for Israel. Very high cost of living thanks to crazy ill thought out military offensives in Gaza and the settlements fomenting more hostility in the West Bank.

The so called immigrant settlers and the ultra orthodox religious zealots contribute nothing to the economy but are the root of a lot of problems for Israel. In the case of the latter they refuse to work or join the military and appear to spend all their time creating ever increasing families funded by the Israeli taxpayers.

There are others in the more moderate Israel political scene with progressive views.

Israeli opposition leader, Isaac Herzog, says it's "absolutely possible" to make peace with the Palestinians. Speaking at the Brookings Institution in Washington DC, the leader of the Israeli Labour Party says it is a mistake to assume that peace is unreachable. He says that if he forms the next government he will lead Israel in a different direction

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/dec/06/israeli-opposition-leader-isaac-herzog-peace-video

My money is on Tzipi Livni.

Whatever the hot air from the usual posters that derails threads the facts are that Israel will have to accept a compromise.

France recognised Palestine last week and more will come.

The reality is, from a resent poll 63% of voter prefer Netanyahu to remain PM. At the end of the day regardless of political persuasion, when it comes to the survival of the State of Israel. Israelis stand 100% behind a secure and strong Country. Even if the left did win they would not find it so easy to make peace with the Palestinians. Not just because of Palestinian demands!

[Jingthing]

A lot can happen between now and election day in Israel. Given all the coalition games going on, Netanyahu's job isn't exactly secure. Personally I think Israel could do better, but could also do worse.