Koh Tao - Witnesses 'scared to testify' over Brit tourist murders: Thai lawyer

[sambum]

This appraoch solved a few problems.

http://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/nation-building-police-reform-lessons-from-georgia-4696/

Excellent article!

[sambum]

How is it that we have heard nothing whatever about the British findings?

Yawn! zzzzzzzzzzz!

[sambum]

The Brits never did anything about the Kirsty Jones murder. So i do not expect any change in policy.

http://www.samuitimes.com/breakthrough-murdered-backpacker-kirsty-jones-investigation/

There have been some developments.

Good - 14 years later, but still an open case. Part of the article stood out liker a sore thumb to me :-

"At the time of Kirsty’s murder, the Royal Thai police were accused of bungling the investigation. Officers failed to seal off the scene of the crime and vital evidence could have been contaminated."

[Robby nz]

Hannah Witheridge, the British forensics and Scotland yard are now the key to all this. In my opinion forensics in the UK will have found DNA on Hannah and have their own results of this. They will also know if the body will have been purposely ''Cleaned in an attempt to hide evidence'' either way this will be the case. Secondly obtaining DNA from the 2 boys is not a big undertaking. I am sure Scotland yard will have obtained it somehow either directly or indirectly if the Thai authorities refused to offer it too them. This has to be the starting point as far as the 2 boys are concerned, can Scotland yard or will Scotland yard release a statement saying they can prove that these two boys DNA is a match or not? If not then the Thai authorities have a serious chose to make. Do they undermine the evidence given to them by one of the most respected forensics people on earth or will they think of the consequences of disregarding what Scotland yards Forensics find. I am sure that now these boys have been officially charged the British will now make their move.

I think you're living in a "Fantasy Island of Wishful Thinking", this is not going to happen IMO. IF indeed Scotland Yard would hold such a trump-card, they would have played it by now, don't you think? So, if true what you say, what "consequences of ignoring" are you talking about? I bet most Thais never even heard of Scotland yard. On top of that, it is easy for the Thais to put a Thai-spin to that story, if such a story would ever emerge. I am afraid it will be too late for B2.

The wise thing for them to do now is to plead guilty to avoid certain death and hope that the world will not forget and pray for a miracle. I hope the lawyers will tape that new confession and explain why they plead guilty.

BTW : What happened to the mysterious Number 3 report who claimed the RTP already got the trump-card which is apparently also referring to a gunshot wound?

All is speculation and therefore all posts by everybody should end with IMHO (in my humble opinion).

IMHO

A guilty plea should never be contemplated for if they plead guilty then no one will ever know what evidence the cops have against them.

Its not a matter of trying to avoid a death penalty and accepting life in jail, which would work out about the same thing or possibly even worse.

Its about getting the truth out and if they are innocent then they must plead that way, it would seem they have competent legal representation with the Burmese Govt, the lawyers council and human rights watch backing, a combination which should not be able to be paid off.

Can you imagine how pleased the hardened crims inside would be to see a couple of small young men put in with them and what use they would put them to?

I would be very disappointed if a guilty plea was entered for it would mean those mentioned earlier had given up on the 2 accused and corruption had won again.

[sambum]

From the Phuket news

Phuket: Koh Tao murder suspects to enter pleas Monday

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrSbmoKk4FUnggAL0pXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZjJnbW1sBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDU0OF8x/RV=2/RE=1417806731/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.thephuketnews.com%2fkoh-tao-murder-suspects-to-enter-pleas-monday-49992.php/RK=0/RS=rn9YG3xLnAIXGWMJXp9wE7K7dXw-

Quote:

Speaking about the torture allegations, Thawatchai Saengjaew, chief of the Public Prosecution's Region 8 Office, said no injuries had been found on either of the suspects while lawyers were also present when the interrogations were carried out via interpreters.

Pick the bones out of that.................

I'm (almost) lost for words! "Lawyers present"? "Interrogations"? "Interpreters"?

[Willy Eckerslike]

The Brits never did anything about the Kirsty Jones murder. So i do not expect any change in policy.

http://www.samuitimes.com/breakthrough-murdered-backpacker-kirsty-jones-investigation/

There have been some developments.

Good - 14 years later, but still an open case. Part of the article stood out liker a sore thumb to me :-

"At the time of Kirsty’s murder, the Royal Thai police were accused of bungling the investigation. Officers failed to seal off the scene of the crime and vital evidence could have been contaminated."

Great news especially after 14 years..............I am not sure how new that news is though as there are two comments at the bottom one from Oct and one from Nov ??

[Willy Eckerslike]

Update:

Phuket: Koh Tao murder suspects to enter pleas Monday

[mcm991]

From the Phuket news

Phuket: Koh Tao murder suspects to enter pleas Monday

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrSbmoKk4FUnggAL0pXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZjJnbW1sBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDU0OF8x/RV=2/RE=1417806731/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.thephuketnews.com%2fkoh-tao-murder-suspects-to-enter-pleas-monday-49992.php/RK=0/RS=rn9YG3xLnAIXGWMJXp9wE7K7dXw-

Quote:

Speaking about the torture allegations, Thawatchai Saengjaew, chief of the Public Prosecution's Region 8 Office, said no injuries had been found on either of the suspects while lawyers were also present when the interrogations were carried out via interpreters.

Pick the bones out of that.................

I'm (almost) lost for words! "Lawyers present"? "Interrogations"? "Interpreters"?

The police said themselves that no lawyers were present at the interrogations at the safehouse because the B2 had not requested any.

and no bruises either ... mind you.... nobody looked until several weeks after the fact.

B*llocks - all of it.

[sambum]

The Brits never did anything about the Kirsty Jones murder. So i do not expect any change in policy.

http://www.samuitimes.com/breakthrough-murdered-backpacker-kirsty-jones-investigation/

There have been some developments.

Good - 14 years later, but still an open case. Part of the article stood out liker a sore thumb to me :-

"At the time of Kirsty’s murder, the Royal Thai police were accused of bungling the investigation. Officers failed to seal off the scene of the crime and vital evidence could have been contaminated."

Great news especially after 14 years..............I am not sure how new that news is though as there are two comments at the bottom one from Oct and one from Nov ??

Yes, I've just noticed that, and it's a bit confusing! The article is dated Dec 5, and part of it states 'Armed with the scientific evidence, Superintendent Steve Wilkins and Detective Inspector Steve Hughson will travel to Bangkok tomorrow" (I think that the original Daily Mail article must have been dated much earlier)

[balo]

How is it that we have heard nothing whatever about the British findings?

Maybe because there are no findings ? Nothing new to report that we already don't know.

Edited December 5, 2014 by balo

[boomerangutang]

How is it that we have heard nothing whatever about the British findings?

Maybe because there are no findings ? Nothing new to report that we already know.

'no findings' ?!? That's highly doubtful. That would be like saying the reenactment was close to reality. Or saying Nomsod's alibi video is believable.

The reason we have not heard from the Brit experts (my opinion) is: The Brits know this is a high-profile and controversial case. They know that any data they present which conflicts with what Thai officialdom wants, could have serious state-to-state repercussions. Several times, the Thai self-appointed PM has declared publicly: "there are no scapegoats" and "it is a perfect investigation." He obviously has a lot of face invested in the investigation going as officialdom wants it to go: nail the Burmese, and continue shielding the Headman's people.

The Brits, thus far, have only claimed they will have an inquest report in the 1st week of Jan. '15. They're probably keeping the victims' families apprised of some things, but that's about it, thus far. I wish they would speak up sooner, and reveal what they know, but that's because I'm subjectively hoping the real criminals get arrested, tried and, if found guilty, get executed or put away for life.

[Chris Lawrence]

A social media campaign where one could get names of all involved, their Facebook, twitter pages and their friends and just start sending them messages asking how did they come to the conclusions they did, has money passed hands, ask if they are corrupt, why did they bumble along with the investigation, will they act in the same way again? Questions not in a humiliating way but just be straight forward in asking why? Has the investigation been so keystones cop type?

It wouldn't be allowed on this board, and others would have to send TV members personal messages to find out about such a campaign.

It was just a thought I had; I am not that good in getting around other sites.

Straightforward is humiliating in a culture where straightforward is not spoken.....and illegal.

I thought that too, Arrows. But I see offshore sites and just thought if there were any such campaigns like this happening? PM if you see anything like it happening.

[battambang]

@ JOC

I wouldn't feel stupid at all. I donated to that fund pretty much at the beginning when they started it simply because anyone deserves a fair trial in my opinion. their lawyers work for free but they have expenses like traveling costs etc.

[IslandLover]

catweazle, on 05 Dec 2014 - 03:58, said:

I have said it often and say it again: The silence over this coming from Hannah's and David's parents make me sick! They are the only ones who could turn this case around and make sure that the real murderers are being put to justice.

Your comment is not very fair. The victims' parents issued a public statement on the arrest of the B2 that they hoped the RIGHT people would be prosecuted for these murders. This would indicate they have the same doubts as the rest of us. However, it is not up to them.

IMO the only ones who can turn this case around are the victims' travelling companions and the people on that island who know what REALLY happened that night. THEY are the ones who should be speaking up now out of common decency and support for the victims' parents.

[IslandLover]

arrowsdawdle, on 05 Dec 2014 - 03:20, said:

Maybe there is another chance, if the Burmese interrogator that helped the BIB can be given immunity and a better life outside LOS to open up with what he knows.

I doubt it, given that he's a stateless Rohingya with an agenda.

[Wilsonandson]

E scapegoats! Why do we need closure? Let them go and leave the case unsolved.

[smellthecoffee]

Just don't get lazy posting this stuff in your Twitters and Facebook pages and keep the pressure up the fact they are going ahead means they are confident they are in the clear already. These guys are monitoring the foreign press to see if it's safe to go ahead.

They are all in it together in one big happy shower of bastards.

[Luang]

Just don't get lazy posting this stuff in your Twitters and Facebook pages and keep the pressure up the fact they are going ahead means they are confident they are in the clear already. These guys are monitoring the foreign press to see if it's safe to go ahead.

They are all in it together in one big happy shower of bastards.

Agree, twatter David Cameron, Mark Kent. FB etc just do something.

[JLCrab]

Witnesses are most probably illegal migrant workers themselves, trapped in a very small island controlled by mafias.

Witnesses? Witnesses to what? EYEwitnesses? Why has the blogosphere which has no compunction about speculation not speculated as to what evidence witnesses Thai, Burmese, or farang might have of an exculpatory nature that they are afraid to bring forward? Why have none of these witnesses sent anonymous emails to Andy Hall that without revealing their identities but give a least some indication of what evidence they might possess?

If they are "illegal migrant workers themselves" they are not Thai or farang. Do you honestly think that they are here to make enough money to purchase a laptop or computer? And don't even think of mentioning using an Internet cafe! On Koh Tao?

Do they have a telephone? Call him with a SIM card for 50 baht and then put the SIM card in the trash. His phone # is on his website. Call him from a 50 satang pay phone. You're saying maybe this whole thing can go down because someone with crucial evidence has no way to get it to anybody in a position to run with it? Do illegals on KT ever leave the island for a day on Samui?

[freedom4life]

more talk of rubbish...

[BritTim]

Witnesses are most probably illegal migrant workers themselves, trapped in a very small island controlled by mafias.

Witnesses? Witnesses to what? EYEwitnesses? Why has the blogosphere which has no compunction about speculation not speculated as to what evidence witnesses Thai, Burmese, or farang might have of an exculpatory nature that they are afraid to bring forward? Why have none of these witnesses sent anonymous emails to Andy Hall that without revealing their identities but give a least some indication of what evidence they might possess?

If they are "illegal migrant workers themselves" they are not Thai or farang. Do you honestly think that they are here to make enough money to purchase a laptop or computer? And don't even think of mentioning using an Internet cafe! On Koh Tao?

Do they have a telephone? Call him with a SIM card for 50 baht and then put the SIM card in the trash. His phone # is on his website. Call him from a 50 satang pay phone. You're saying maybe this whole thing can go down because someone with crucial evidence has no way to get it to anybody in a position to run with it? Do illegals on KT ever leave the island for a day on Samui?

This is the old problem. In such cases, anonymous tips are mostly worthless. 50 separate people can call and say they saw 6 people involved, naming them (none of whom were the Burmese kids) and it means absolutely nothing unless they are willing to testify in court and possibly die.

[MJP]

E scapegoats! Why do we need closure? Let them go and leave the case unsolved.

"We" don't need closure. But Hannah and David's families sure do.

I think you need to check your moral compass, it seems to have developed a fault.

[Bleacher Bum East]

E scapegoats! Why do we need closure? Let them go and leave the case unsolved.

"We" don't need closure. But Hannah and David's families sure do.

I think you need to check your moral compass, it seems to have developed a fault.

Agreed.

The next potential victim---whether it's from additional killers of Hannah and David or different killers altogether---need closure also.

And the Thai people, who deserve a fair and efficient system of justice that they can have some faith in---or at least some visible steps in that direction---need closure as well.

[metisdead]

A post lobbying for donations has been removed as well as the replies:

22) Members are forbidden to ask for or accept donations, gifts or commissions from other members, any charities must contact support for approval before joining. before joining to be approved. http://www.thaivisa.com/contact

Other trolling nonsense posts and inflammatory replies have been removed as well.

[German Viking]

I hope David Cameron realises how little Thailand's government cares about what he has to say or his crime investigators.

I hope the whole world realize that Thailand give a damn of any foreign opinion.

[German Viking]

Thailand's Justice system is invested in fairness to the extent that it complies with Article 14 of the 1996 'International covenant on civil and political rights' as first referenced here by da Bleacher Bum.

If someone wants to make a case otherwise that might be grounds for appeal after the scapegoats are slam dunk convicted and railroaded by the kangaroo court for a crime everybody knows was committed by someone else but everybody who knows won't come forward with any evidence to back up what they know whether they have any such evidence or not.

In theory correct. However in pratice ... not so much.

Most people I know can relate numerous examples of how the justice system has failed through either personal or anecdotal experience. The common theme being - the more money you have - the better your chances of getting a favourable result. Apparently just as valid in civil, criminal or appeal courts.

We having a simple phrase in germany "To have the right on your side means not you getting automatically your rights in the Court"

[irishsmile]

I would guess it`s because many of the witnesses are staying illegally in Thailand, maybe working without permits and into a multitude of illegal activities, which is why they prefer to keep out of the limelight and have low profiles.

Also those who were not close or associated with the tragic victims will probably be reluctant to become involved as is mostly the case when serious crimes are committed. That means the police are really on their own as for providing evidence. From my experience of farangs here in Thailand and their anti social attitudes, perhaps because they are into activities they prefer to keep behind the scenes or simply just don`t care, it comes as no surprise that they will not come forward and become involved within this investigation.

No corruption involved, it is how I have described above.

Another farang who have joined the MTTT-club!!

Love your stereo-typing!!

All migrant workers are illegal and into "a multitude of illegal activities"

Farangs are antisocial, and "into activities they prefer to keep behind the scenes"

And the real gem in your post: No corruption involved!!

I know, your son is a Thai copper and maybe one of the good guys? But that shouldn't prevent you from seeing how rotten the RTP-organisation is.

As for your no corruption claim, try to do a little research on Pol Gen Somyot (your sons boss) and his unusual wealth!! Please report your findings back here.

MTTT=More Thai Than Thai

Is this guy for real???? Do you actually live in Thailand or are you just having a laugh??

[German Viking]

I wish i was a witness. I would testify without a second thought.

But not in in Thailand you would not survive 24 hours.

To be brave is a good thing, but stupidity is an other thing and they are sometimes very close almost like twins.

[gigman]

Wonder how much money has changed hands to get all the ducks in a row??

Thailand may have improved its corruption-ranking, but as long as you can pay to get away with murder, the country still remains in the cave-age!!

It stinks!!

As far as those with big money will be untouchable ...nothing can or will change .As history tells in American problems with Mafia...

Simply saying they could not touch Al Capone until they looked closely in his taxation history.

Thailand has to many Al Capone's and worst thing is that they have also ranks and high positions and links everywhere.

I always wished Gen...and now PM good luck with cleaning but I thing he is not strong enough in very murky waters.

I know he needs a lot of time but also all with dirty hands can use this time to protect themselves from the law and often with own law rules designed by them in the past.....

[boomerangutang]

Thais have different standards. Years ago, I started mentioning some local real estate listings as a small biz. I spoke with two Thai men who wanted to partner-up with me. From the get-go, they wanted to post prices (for properties) at higher prices than sellers were asking. You can guess where the mark-up was intended to go. I tried telling the Thai guys that being a realtor meant looking out for the interests of the seller AND the buyer. Marking up and pocketing the difference, would be ripping off both the buyer and the seller. The two Thai men grinned and looked at me like I was nuts. We didn't form a partnership.

I mention this because posters on here can't assume Thais are going to think like farang regarding legal proceedings. Just one proof (which was touched upon in earlier posts): the defense attorneys won't be apprised of what the prosecution might spring on the court. Secrecy and deviousness is built-in to the system. With the full force of Thai officialdom wanting desperately to nail the scapegoats (everything they've said and done in recent weeks attests to that), the B2 are like two guys in a leaky rowboat being challenged by a Navy cruiser. It's also clear that everything Thai officialdom has said and done in recent weeks - serves to shield any of the headman's people from scrutiny.