Family of Brits murdered in Thailand say evidence convincing

[AleG]

There are some people on this site that i refuse to repost because of their looooooong posts that delete the interesting information. The constant bickering of some ,that very cleverly takes away from the issues. When i see those names i skip past and dont read a word. Since it repeats the same thing over and over and over. Please do not repost the dark ones.this is about the justice of 2 young boys.the justice of 1 young man. The justice of 1 young lady.

There are some people on this site that i refuse to repost because of their looooooong posts that delete the interesting information. The constant bickering of some ,that very cleverly takes away from the issues. When i see those names i skip past and dont read a word

Have you considered that this attitude of yours makes you unable of assessing facts objectively? You only want to see what you agree with.

[boomerangutang]

The transfer/promotion (of the initial head cop) was announced for that date before the murders even took place and a simple Google search will show you the transfers were announced in the press before the murders.

Nice try, but the man was in charge of a crime scene, and all of a sudden he's replaced. Couldn't be because he was accumulating evidence against the prime suspects at the time (one of whom couldn't be located in Bkk), could it? Couldn't be because Thai officials wanted a quick solution to the case because tourist revenues were tipped to tank, could it?

Now that conspiracy theorists, who demanded UK authorities look into the case, have some insight into UK investigators findings and since it doesn't go along with their baseless conspiracy theories they have proclaimed UK authorities are now in on the cover-up or are more incompetent than Thai police who easily pulled the wool over their eyes.

Would be extremely easy to laugh at these people if not for the damage and hurt they are causing.

Go ahead and laugh. Then think about the people who have caused the most hurt, and how easy it would be for those same people to cause yet more hurt. Yes, I'm referring to the actual murderers and gang rapists. They're currently strolling around, going to parties, using date-rape drugs, and.... they know they're untouchable. Perhaps next time, they'll be a bit more careful in how they do their dastardly deeds. At least they got rid of Sean. There must be a collective sigh of relief by them (and those who are shielding the Headman's people) that Sean was spirited out of the country the day after the crime. Even if testimony were to come forth from Sean (Brit interrogation, perhaps?), the Headman's people and their shielders could readily dismiss it as utterings of a deranged law-breaking man.

Maybe the next move for the actual murderers will be to find and snuff out people like you who actually know THE TRUTH. Chiang Rai isn't such a big place and they will be able find out who you are. So maybe instead of wives and girl friends and nieces it is YOU who are next for one of their dastardly deeds.

Well, I hope I'm not hunted down by family/friends of the Headman's family, because I keep harping about how some of them should be prime suspects. I admit, I'd be easy to find. I live in a house sitting alone one on 6 rai. No metal bars or curtains on my windows. The closest neighbors are a hundred meters away. Easy to point a gun at a window and pick me off, boom!. Or perhaps a few fellows can throw me to the ground and bash my head in. The Headman's friends and family might be well-versed in how to do that.

But yes, Thailand justice is like that. Take attorneys, for example: several have been killed because they were challenging authorities and/or very rich/politically powerful people. Even an Australian accountant was killed by a Thai corp boss who didn't like his official meddling in the company's affairs.

[JOC]

@ JD and JTJ.

Before you get started today, please stop patronizing your fellow posters.

It is way too easy to dismiss us as "conspiracy theorists" or stupid children.

Yes a lot of theories have been aired here, some brilliant and some outright crazy, but I am sure within some of those posts, we will find the truth.

And we "on the other side" at least try to have an open mind. Illustrated by the fact, that we use words like maybe an if !

IMO the real conspiracy theorists here are the RTP apologists, who from day one have locked themselves into defend-RTP-mode. And no matter how good arguments against their POV have refused to move one millimeter.

That in my book is a true conspiracy theorist!!

[AleG]

The transfer/promotion (of the initial head cop) was announced for that date before the murders even took place and a simple Google search will show you the transfers were announced in the press before the murders.

Nice try, but the man was in charge of a crime scene, and all of a sudden he's replaced. Couldn't be because he was accumulating evidence against the prime suspects at the time (one of whom couldn't be located in Bkk), could it? Couldn't be because Thai officials wanted a quick solution to the case because tourist revenues were tipped to tank, could it?

Read again, slowly, "The transfer/promotion (of the initial head cop) was announced for that date before the murders even took place", this is a fact, this: "Couldn't be because he was accumulating evidence against the prime suspects at the time" is baseless speculation. You go with the baseless speculation and ignore the facts, it's not a commendable attitude, specially on the face of the victim's families specifically and unequivocally asking for such hurtful behaviour to stop.

[JohnThailandJohn]

@ JD and JTJ.

Before you get started today, please stop patronizing your fellow posters.

It is way too easy to dismiss us as "conspiracy theorists" or stupid children.

Yes a lot of theories have been aired here, some brilliant and some outright crazy, but I am sure within some of those posts, we will find the truth.

And we "on the other side" at least try to have an open mind. Illustrated by the fact, that we use words like maybe an if !

IMO the real conspiracy theorists here are the RTP apologists, who from day one have locked themselves into defend-RTP-mode. And no matter how good arguments against their POV have refused to move one millimeter.

That in my book is a true conspiracy theorist!!

2 Guys in custody whose semen was found in victim.

Victims families, after speaking with UK investigators who examined case, evidence and police procedures, are confident the men in custody are the right people and have asked the "brilliant" conspiracy theorists to stop.

Response from the conspiracy theorists, accuse the UK government of being in on the conspiracy, call the parents naive, say parents forced to sign statement, focus on specific words of statement to say parents believe the opposite of what they stated, accused the FCO of being in on the cover-up, say UK investigators don't know Thai police like they do, UK investigators were outsmarted by Thai police and numerous other things to try to ignore actual evidence in the case while speculating on nonsense.

And yes, I agree with your quote "It is way too easy to dismiss us as "conspiracy theorists" or stupid children." and there is a reason for this.

Edited December 8, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[JohnThailandJohn]

<deleted>-- doesn't mean you should continue to live in fantasy land about the likely guilt of these two suspects given the evidence and what appears to be even UK Investigators confidence in their guilt.

Why haven't or aren't the others involved in the crime being sought in your opinion...?

I am unaware of any evidence to suggest there are others involved -- just a bunch of nonsense speculation from people who don't know the facts of the case. On the other hand, I am now aware of people who have much greater knowledge of the case and the evidence after speaking to UK Investigators who have first hand knowledge and they indicate they are confident in the case against the two. The person so many conspiracy theorists want to say involved actually has a great deal of proof he wasn't even on the island at the time.

There were three people on the beach in the area people where looking for since the start. Two were finally arrested after there semen was matched to that in the victim and the third will be a witness against the two .. though it sounds like he didn't actually witness the crime since he left early but also sounds like he has things to testify about after the facts but this we will have to wait for trial to hear.

So it a nutshell -- THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE ANYONE ELSE WAS INVOLVED unless you are going off nonsense speculation of bits and pieces of information including early reports that have since been updated.

Edited December 8, 2014 by CharlieH

[JohnThailandJohn]

<deleted> -- doesn't mean you should continue to live in fantasy land about the likely guilt of these two suspects given the evidence and what appears to be even UK Investigators confidence in their guilt.

Why haven't or aren't the others involved in the crime being sought in your opinion...?

I am unaware of any evidence to suggest there are others involved -- just a bunch of nonsense speculation from people who don't know the facts of the case. On the other hand, I am now aware of people who have much greater knowledge of the case and the evidence after speaking to UK Investigators who have first hand knowledge and they indicate they are confident in the case against the two. The person so many conspiracy theorists want to say involved actually has a great deal of proof he wasn't even on the island at the time.

There were three people on the beach in the area people where looking for since the start. Two were finally arrested after there semen was matched to that in the victim and the third will be a witness against the two .. though it sounds like he didn't actually witness the crime since he left early but also sounds like he has things to testify about after the facts but this we will have to wait for trial to hear.

So it a nutshell -- THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE ANYONE ELSE WAS INVOLVED unless you are going off nonsense speculation of bits and pieces of information including early reports that have since been updated.

Third DNA sample.....?

Early reports - later clarified (example of kind of nonsense speculative BS I mentioned above)

3 DNA found on cigarette butts -- we now know 3 people (Burmese) where there smoking and the 3rd (now witness) left early. Only two unknown semen samples in victim and they belong to the two in custody.

Edited December 8, 2014 by CharlieH

[JohnThailandJohn]

<deleted> -- doesn't mean you should continue to live in fantasy land about the likely guilt of these two suspects given the evidence and what appears to be even UK Investigators confidence in their guilt.

Schoollbook!!

If running out of arguments, attack the poster!!

Happy to hear other reasons for continued nonsense speculation if it isn't about distrust or anger. Clearly many of the posters spreading these theories are the ones constantly bashing Thais and Thailand on this forum while all (if not nearly all) continue to say it is because they never will trust anything the Thai police say ... interestingly they are happy to use what they say if it matches with one of their conspiracy theories.

[johncat1]

I just hope the families haven't been reading the absolute crap that went on for thousands of posts from the conspiracy theorists on here and if not grizzly photos then the description of the crime scene in graphic detail.

I said it before and I will say again shame on all of you that know as much about this case as me and that's f&$K all.

Bloody disgraceful!

If the RTP had investigated this crime in a professional manner. Starting with preserving the crime scene instead of bumbling around like a bunch of amateurs letting anyone with a camera phone take photos of the bodies.

IF the police had been professional and only issued official statements from an official Police spokesman instead of allowing any Tom, Dick and Harry. Who wants to see their name in print give statements allegedly as an official Police representative.

Most Thais will accept these inconsistencies because it is accepted way of doing things here.

So of course the armchair detectives question the police and their alleged evidence. Because there are so many inconsistencies and it is obvious the police are covering up a lot of facts to protect certain individuals.

Also the Police refusal to accept PROFESSIONAL British or American help with correct DNA testing, does not help their credibility.

[CharlieH]

Several posts and responses to them removed.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[jdinasia]

JTJ and JDINASIA the families have asked for people to give them some respect and STOP posting nonsense online.

Is there any reason you think this means you two feel the need to make 500 posts between you ?

There are 5 or 6 other threads about this crime on this very forum.

Please show some respect and give it a rest.

First time caller, long time listener?

My responses are not sensationalism nor promoting speculation. (conspiracy theories)

I have wanted a trial since the arrest of the 2 Burmese men accused of being the killers, that is when we see the actual strength of the case.

Edited December 8, 2014 by jdinasia

[JLCrab]

Per Post #666 above you did not refer to persons some of whom 'should be prime suspects' -- you referred to them as the 'actual killers and gang rapists" in the nested quote.

[Strangebrew]

I have no idea whether the B2 are innocent or guilty, but JD you are so wrong this is Thailand and we all know you are guilty until you prove innocent,

And after that your still guilty and do time till you pay huge bribe to be released.

[JohnThailandJohn]

 

I just hope the families haven't been reading the absolute crap that went on for thousands of posts from the conspiracy theorists on here and if not grizzly photos then the description of the crime scene in graphic detail.

I said it before and I will say again shame on all of you that know as much about this case as me and that's f&$K all.

Bloody disgraceful!

If the RTP had investigated this crime in a professional manner. Starting with preserving the crime scene instead of bumbling around like a bunch of amateurs letting anyone with a camera phone take photos of the bodies.

IF the police had been professional and only issued official statements from an official Police spokesman instead of allowing any Tom, Dick and Harry. Who wants to see their name in print give statements allegedly as an official Police representative.

Most Thais will accept these inconsistencies because it is accepted way of doing things here.

So of course the armchair detectives question the police and their alleged evidence. Because there are so many inconsistencies and it is obvious the police are covering up a lot of facts to protect certain individuals.

Also the Police refusal to accept PROFESSIONAL British or American help with correct DNA testing, does not help their credibility.

 

And now UK officials have been here and looked at evidence and investigation and spoke to the parents and shared their thoughts and parents have clearly stated their confidence in these two people in custody being rightfully charged --- now what is the excuse to continue the BS even after the parents have asked it to stop and made it clear people don't have the facts they do and these conspiracy theories are hurtful to them?

Edited December 8, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[AleG]

 

I just hope the families haven't been reading the absolute crap that went on for thousands of posts from the conspiracy theorists on here and if not grizzly photos then the description of the crime scene in graphic detail.

I said it before and I will say again shame on all of you that know as much about this case as me and that's f&$K all.

Bloody disgraceful!

If the RTP had investigated this crime in a professional manner. Starting with preserving the crime scene instead of bumbling around like a bunch of amateurs letting anyone with a camera phone take photos of the bodies.

IF the police had been professional and only issued official statements from an official Police spokesman instead of allowing any Tom, Dick and Harry. Who wants to see their name in print give statements allegedly as an official Police representative.

Most Thais will accept these inconsistencies because it is accepted way of doing things here.

So of course the armchair detectives question the police and their alleged evidence. Because there are so many inconsistencies and it is obvious the police are covering up a lot of facts to protect certain individuals.

Also the Police refusal to accept PROFESSIONAL British or American help with correct DNA testing, does not help their credibility.

 

And now UK officials have been here and looked at evidence and investigation and spoke to the parents and shared their thoughts and parents have clearly stated their confidence in these two people in custody being rightfully charged --- now what is the excuse to continue the BS even after the parents have asked it to stop and made it clear people don't have the facts they do and these conspiracy theories are hurtful to them?

I think the answer is:

[thailandchilli]

Its going to be interesting to see in the trial the reasons why in the first round of DNA testing where they sampled the first 12 suspects including a group of 3 Burmese that were near the scene playing a guitar and sing pop music and that the subsequent DNA results did not match?

I am also looking forward to the explanation of the RTP and coroner confirming that 2 weapons were used, along with the many other contradictions in the investigation.

[uty6543]

 

I just hope the families haven't been reading the absolute crap that went on for thousands of posts from the conspiracy theorists on here and if not grizzly photos then the description of the crime scene in graphic detail.

I said it before and I will say again shame on all of you that know as much about this case as me and that's f&$K all.

Bloody disgraceful!

If the RTP had investigated this crime in a professional manner. Starting with preserving the crime scene instead of bumbling around like a bunch of amateurs letting anyone with a camera phone take photos of the bodies.

IF the police had been professional and only issued official statements from an official Police spokesman instead of allowing any Tom, Dick and Harry. Who wants to see their name in print give statements allegedly as an official Police representative.

Most Thais will accept these inconsistencies because it is accepted way of doing things here.

So of course the armchair detectives question the police and their alleged evidence. Because there are so many inconsistencies and it is obvious the police are covering up a lot of facts to protect certain individuals.

Also the Police refusal to accept PROFESSIONAL British or American help with correct DNA testing, does not help their credibility.

 

And now UK officials have been here and looked at evidence and investigation and spoke to the parents and shared their thoughts and parents have clearly stated their confidence in these two people in custody being rightfully charged --- now what is the excuse to continue the BS even after the parents have asked it to stop and made it clear people don't have the facts they do and these conspiracy theories are hurtful to them?

That is an absolutely not true. Please post a link where the parents have "clearly stated their confidence in these two people in custody being rightfully charged." Your interpretation is just to suit your agenda and that is the reason why posting continues pointing out lies and inaccuracies in this case.

[z42]

Must agree wholeheartdely with Andy Hall's take on this press release. Source is here https://www.facebook.com/andy.hall.3110/posts/10152644382575677

Full transcript here

For your information (the sender I removed their name for anonymity reasons but they consented to my sharing the email substance widely), below is a very interesting emailed legal and justice based analysis I received roundly condemning the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) for its role in facilitating the release of public statements by the victims family in Koh Tao case on Friday evening.

I received this email today and found it very thought provoking so wanted to share it on my FB page for get more feedback and opinions!

I personally remain confused on: (1) the actual meaning of the statements; (2) reference to an 'independent' UK investigation on the case and; (3) the means by which the FCO facilitated the release of these statements and what FCO role was on advising/authorising/editing (or even writing in some way, I assume not the latter however) these statements - I.e. Is the dissemination of the statements justified by FCO in interests of the victims family, to bring clarity (not sure they did that) or could the statements in any way be seen to prejudice the right to a fair trial of the accused?

I draw no conclusions yet so welcome discussion and thoughts

------
Begin forwarded message:

From: XXX (name removed)
Date: 7 December 2014 14:38:29 GMT+7
To: Andy Hall <[email protected]>
Subject: Statements Released by Hannah and David's families through the FCO

Hi Andy:

I continue to applaud your work on behalf of the B2 and other Burmese migrant workers, and a big congrats on your initial victory in your own case.

I saw your tweets about the statements just released by Hannah and David's families, and understand you have to be publicly diplomatic and respect them, as well as the British govt. whose help you need at times.

But I personally believe that the British government should be directly condemned for facilitating and allowing the release of these statements.

For what it's worth, here are my complete thoughts on why:

The sincerity and suffering of Hannah and David’s family should be completely respected.

But the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) should be unequivocally condemned for allowing the statements of the two families (released on Dec. 6) to be released through its office and facilitated by its staff, or even released at all.

In fact, the British Foreign Secretary, the British Ambassador to Thailand, and anyone else involved in the release of these statements should resign immediately, if not worse, for dereliction of duty and abuse and misuse of law.

Regardless of whether the two accused Burmese men are guilty or innocent (or guilty in combination with others who have not been identified) . . .

And regardless of whether their trial eventually turns out to be fair . . .

There is nothing more prejudicial to a murder trial than public statements like those just made by Hannah and David’s families on the eve of arraignment and just before the trial.

The statement of David Miller’s family said this: "From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

In a murder trial, the defendants do not have to answer anything unless and until the prosecution has proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt. So this statement is saying that the Miller’s believe the Thai police have already done so.

Can you imagine if in the UK the family of a murder victim was given access to a large amount of publicly unavailable evidence by the police, and then allowed to publicly state, in effect, that in their opinion the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt before the trial even begins?

Not only would this be illegal, but the police would be roundly and deservedly criticized and possibly even prosecuted for allowing it to happen. And it may then be deemed impossible for a fair trial to occur at all.

Even the statement made by Hannah’s family, which on its face is much more innocuous, is highly prejudicial.

The family said: "We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

As a practical matter this statement provides almost complete cover for an investigation that the defense is sure to challenge as a key part of its case.

In fact, the statements of David and Hannah’s families in combination have effectively inoculated the police, prosecutor, and judge from any criticism that the investigation, prosecution and trial of the accused Burmese men are unfair.

The “qualifiers” in the families’ statements, which say in effect the public should wait and see all the evidence produced in a fair trial, do not have any practical meaning once the previous statements that the evidence is powerful and convincing, and expressing “confidence” in the investigation, have been made.

While it is very important to respect and support the feelings and wishes of the victims’ families, it is also important to recognize that their interests are not the only interests at stake.

The people and residents of Thailand have a direct public safety interest in making sure that all of the killers are apprehended and prosecuted, and also have an interest in having a fair and just judicial system. Of course the accused also have an interest in a fair trial.

In a fair trial, the defense will be able to (i) vigorously challenge the methods of investigation and evidence collection, (ii) produce its own witnesses, (iii) receive fair rulings on the introduction of evidence by both prosecution and defense, (iv) receive all of the evidence in the hands of the police and prosecutor (both inculpatory and exculpatory) well before trial, etc. etc.

Before the statements of the victims’ families were released on Dec. 6, one of the best assurances that the trial and verdict of the two accused Burmese men would be fair was the international spotlight that has been shown on this case.

But now, after these statements by the victims’ families, any criticism of the methods of investigation or fairness of the trial proceedings can be easily deflected by the authorities (which the Thai police have already done).

The authorities can simply say, in essence, that “if it was good enough for the victim’s families, it must be fair and just”. And this basically gives them carte blanche to do as they please at trial.

Of course the defense can still raise objections, and outside observers can complain if there is any unfairness, but in reality it will have no impact now that the families have publicly blessed the proceedings and, in the Miller’s case, said in effect that they think the two accused men are guilty.

In addition, if there are witnesses that would help the defense, why would any now come forward after the victim’s families have said this?

The British FCO has also abused and misused the UK law requiring an investigation of a death overseas if requested by the victim’s family.

They have done so in a manner that both highly prejudices the accused men’s right to a fair trial, making their actions entirely at odds with the purpose of the law, and have set a dangerous precedent for foreign cases that directly conflicts with what the law is on UK soil.

Ordinarily in the UK, a victim’s family would not be shown all of the evidence that Hannah and David’s family were shown---they would have to wait for the trial just like everyone else. And in any event, in a UK proceeding they would not be allowed to speak about the trial until it was completed.

This case is unusual because under British law the families were allowed to request an investigation and receive a large amount of information and evidence because the deaths occurred overseas.

But it is an abject abuse and misuse of that law to provide the families with an extensive amount of non-public information and then allow them to issue public comments, facilitated directly by the FCO, about what they’ve seen in any way that is prejudicial to the fair administration of justice.

This is exactly what has happened in this case.

Hannah and David’s families are not to blame.

The British government and FCO are to blame.

And they should be condemned in the strongest terms, and those responsible removed from office, for extreme dereliction of duty and abuse and misuse of law in a manner that in all likelihood condemned two men to death before a trial even takes place.

Finally, it is ironic that the British government has stated previously that they cannot do anything that “interferes” with the Thai judicial process.

By facilitating and allowing the release of the statements by Hannah and David’s families, they have directly interfered in a death penalty case in a manner highly prejudicial to the accused.

This harms not only the accused.

It also harms the Thai people, other Burmese migrants, etc. who would benefit from complete assurances of a fair trial in this case, because pressure to hold a fair trial in the current case could have a positive impact on the reform of the Thai judicial system in the future—every small step forward towards a fair judicial system matters greatly to Thai residents.

Now, instead of sending the message that “we will be watching” and “this is what we expect a fair trial to include”, the British government has sent a message that “we’re satisfied” even before the trial has begun.

This is an absolute travesty and the British FCO is directly responsible.

On another related note:

Thailand is a party to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which includes provisions for a right to a fair trial (See Article 14), and the country is legally bound by its provisions.

https://treaties.un....668-English.pdf

http://www.ccprcentr.../G0443072en.pdf

Thailand must follow the provisions of this Covenant the same way that Britain and Myanmar are bound by the provisions of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.

The fair trial provisions of the ICCPR have been interpreted on many occasions by courts and international organizations.

Here are two reports detailing interpretations of Article 14 of the ICCPR regarding fair trials.

http://www.amnesty.o...300022014en.pdf

This is Amnesty International’s fair trial handbook.

https://www.humanrig.../fair_trial.pdf

In all interpretations that I have seen, a fair trial under the ICCPR that Thailand is a party to absolutely requires that all evidence, including exculpatory evidence, be given to the accused well in advance of the trial.

This includes interpretation by the UNHRC.

http://ccprcentre.org/…/HRI.GEN.1.Rev.9%28Vol.I%29_%28GC13%…

“Subparagraph 3 ( provides that the accused must have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence and to communicate with counsel of his own choosing. What is “adequate time” depends on the circumstances of each case, but the facilities must include access to documents and other evidence which the accused requires to prepare his case, as well as the opportunity to engage and communicate with counsel.”

Since Thailand is a party to this convention, it could be argued that the failure to provide the defese with all the relevant evidence obtained is illegal.

In any event, a conviction obtained in a trial that does not include the basic elements of fairness cannot be relied upon to have convicted the guilty party and could easily result in an innocent person going to jail or being executed (and the real killers remaining free to kill again) . . . that is why these provisions exist.

Despite the public statements by the victims’ families, I hope that many qualified independent observers will be closely watching the trial of the B2 and using the ICCPR and its interpretations as a scorecard to determine if the trial was fair.

I don’t have a voice that they will listen to, but I think that Amnesty International, the UNHCR, etc. should be directly asked if they will have observers attending the trial, following its proceedings and issuing a report on whether it was fair or not.

If they say they will not, they should explain why.

This is important not only for the sake of Hannah and David's family and justice, but also for Thailand and the Thai people who deserve these standards to be followed in all criminal cases.

Very unfortunately, I think the statements just released may have a practical impact on whether international observers closely follow the trial

[johncat1]

I just hope the families haven't been reading the absolute crap that went on for thousands of posts from the conspiracy theorists on here and if not grizzly photos then the description of the crime scene in graphic detail.

I said it before and I will say again shame on all of you that know as much about this case as me and that's f&$K all.

Bloody disgraceful!

If the RTP had investigated this crime in a professional manner. Starting with preserving the crime scene instead of bumbling around like a bunch of amateurs letting anyone with a camera phone take photos of the bodies.

IF the police had been professional and only issued official statements from an official Police spokesman instead of allowing any Tom, Dick and Harry. Who wants to see their name in print give statements allegedly as an official Police representative.

Most Thais will accept these inconsistencies because it is accepted way of doing things here.

So of course the armchair detectives question the police and their alleged evidence. Because there are so many inconsistencies and it is obvious the police are covering up a lot of facts to protect certain individuals.

Also the Police refusal to accept PROFESSIONAL British or American help with correct DNA testing, does not help their credibility.

[jdinasia]

Must agree wholeheartdely with Andy Hall's take on this press release. Source is here https://www.facebook.com/andy.hall.3110/posts/10152644382575677

Full transcript here

For your information (the sender I removed their name for anonymity reasons but they consented to my sharing the email substance widely), below is a very interesting emailed legal and justice based analysis I received roundly condemning the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) for its role in facilitating the release of public statements by the victims family in Koh Tao case on Friday evening.

I received this email today and found it very thought provoking so wanted to share it on my FB page for get more feedback and opinions!

I personally remain confused on: (1) the actual meaning of the statements; (2) reference to an 'independent' UK investigation on the case and; (3) the means by which the FCO facilitated the release of these statements and what FCO role was on advising/authorising/editing (or even writing in some way, I assume not the latter however) these statements - I.e. Is the dissemination of the statements justified by FCO in interests of the victims family, to bring clarity (not sure they did that) or could the statements in any way be seen to prejudice the right to a fair trial of the accused?

I draw no conclusions yet so welcome discussion and thoughts

------

Begin forwarded message:

From: XXX (name removed)

Date: 7 December 2014 14:38:29 GMT+7

Andy Hall didn't offer an opinion.

In fact, he previously praised the families ' statement asking for a fair and transparent trial.

Edited December 8, 2014 by jdinasia

[jdinasia]

I just hope the families haven't been reading the absolute crap that went on for thousands of posts from the conspiracy theorists on here and if not grizzly photos then the description of the crime scene in graphic detail.

I said it before and I will say again shame on all of you that know as much about this case as me and that's f&$K all.

Bloody disgraceful!

If the RTP had investigated this crime in a professional manner. Starting with preserving the crime scene instead of bumbling around like a bunch of amateurs letting anyone with a camera phone take photos of the bodies.

IF the police had been professional and only issued official statements from an official Police spokesman instead of allowing any Tom, Dick and Harry. Who wants to see their name in print give statements allegedly as an official Police representative.

Most Thais will accept these inconsistencies because it is accepted way of doing things here.

So of course the armchair detectives question the police and their alleged evidence. Because there are so many inconsistencies and it is obvious the police are covering up a lot of facts to protect certain individuals.

Also the Police refusal to accept PROFESSIONAL British or American help with correct DNA testing, does not help their credibility.

No it is not obvious that the police are protecting "certain individuals".

They looked at people then eliminated them as suspects.

[thailandchilli]

In light of Andy Halls other opinions then this gives a good idea on how he feels about the case;

“It’s really challenging getting witnesses for them because everyone’s so scared,” Hall said. He said that Thais living on Koh Tao are especially scared to speak out, because they have names and addresses that can be easily tracked. This is their home, they can’t leave the way migrant workers or Western expats can. People are scared that their businesses will be closed or their lives will be threatened, even that they could be killed, Hall said.

[Fat Haggis]

JD is there corruption within the RTP a simple yes no response is suffice ?

[Willy Eckerslike]

Any news from Samui?

[JohnThailandJohn]

 

I just hope the families haven't been reading the absolute crap that went on for thousands of posts from the conspiracy theorists on here and if not grizzly photos then the description of the crime scene in graphic detail.

I said it before and I will say again shame on all of you that know as much about this case as me and that's f&$K all.

Bloody disgraceful!

If the RTP had investigated this crime in a professional manner. Starting with preserving the crime scene instead of bumbling around like a bunch of amateurs letting anyone with a camera phone take photos of the bodies.

IF the police had been professional and only issued official statements from an official Police spokesman instead of allowing any Tom, Dick and Harry. Who wants to see their name in print give statements allegedly as an official Police representative.

Most Thais will accept these inconsistencies because it is accepted way of doing things here.

So of course the armchair detectives question the police and their alleged evidence. Because there are so many inconsistencies and it is obvious the police are covering up a lot of facts to protect certain individuals.

Also the Police refusal to accept PROFESSIONAL British or American help with correct DNA testing, does not help their credibility.

 

And now UK officials have been here and looked at evidence and investigation and spoke to the parents and shared their thoughts and parents have clearly stated their confidence in these two people in custody being rightfully charged --- now what is the excuse to continue the BS even after the parents have asked it to stop and made it clear people don't have the facts they do and these conspiracy theories are hurtful to them?

That is an absolutely not true. Please post a link where the parents have "clearly stated their confidence in these two people in custody being rightfully charged." Your interpretation is just to suit your agenda and that is the reason why posting continues pointing out lies and inaccuracies in this case.

One would have to really be trying hard to be obtuse or are completely uninformed or simply being dishonest to say the families have not made clear they are "confident the two people in custody are being rightfully charged".

Family of British tourists murdered in Thailand say evidence against Myanmar migrants 'powerful and convincing'

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-06/british-tourist-family-say-thailand-murder-evidence-convincing/5949000

UK families say Koh Tao case looks convincing

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/UK-families-say-Koh-Tao-case-looks-convincing-30249283.html

Families of two British students murdered in Thailand back police

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/06/hannah-witheridge-david-miller-families-speak-thailand

Koh Tao killings: Victim’s family say evidence convincing

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/world/article/koh-tao-killings-victims-family-say-evidence-convincing#sthash.bi7f2X1b.dpuf

Family of Koh Tao beach victimssay evidence convincing

http://www.mizzima.com/mizzima-news/regional/item/15570-family-of-koh-tao-beach-victimssay-evidence-convincing

Hannah Witheridge's Family 'Confident' In Thai Murder Investigation

http://www.heart.co.uk/essex/news/local/witheridges-family-confident-thai-investigation/#o7Ks27iR4TyGlYIW.99

Family of murdered British backpackers in Thailand say evidence convincing

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1206/665029-thailand/

Families of two murdered tourists say they are 'confident' in police probe to solve 'atrocious crimes'

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/families-of-two-murdered-tourists-say-they-are-confident-in-police-probe-to-solve-atrocious-crimes-30803785.html

Edited December 8, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[bruceybonus]

I just hope the families haven't been reading the absolute crap that went on for thousands of posts from the conspiracy theorists on here and if not grizzly photos then the description of the crime scene in graphic detail.

I said it before and I will say again shame on all of you that know as much about this case as me and that's f&$K all.

Bloody disgraceful!

If the RTP had investigated this crime in a professional manner. Starting with preserving the crime scene instead of bumbling around like a bunch of amateurs letting anyone with a camera phone take photos of the bodies.

IF the police had been professional and only issued official statements from an official Police spokesman instead of allowing any Tom, Dick and Harry. Who wants to see their name in print give statements allegedly as an official Police representative.

Most Thais will accept these inconsistencies because it is accepted way of doing things here.

So of course the armchair detectives question the police and their alleged evidence. Because there are so many inconsistencies and it is obvious the police are covering up a lot of facts to protect certain individuals.

Also the Police refusal to accept PROFESSIONAL British or American help with correct DNA testing, does not help their credibility.

No it is not obvious that the police are protecting "certain individuals".

They looked at people then eliminated them as suspects.

[wilcopops]

Chuck it out!

[siampolee]

jdinasia.

Why can't you or why won't you answer the question posed instead of trying to divert attention away from the question you were asked.

I seem to recall a recent post you made stating that you would hopefully next year be visiting the Police Academy here in Thailand, now does that mean you might be an interested party or perish the thought even a P.R. man for the police farce force here?

[fritzzz25]

In light of Andy Halls other opinions then this gives a good idea on how he feels about the case;

“It’s really challenging getting witnesses for them because everyone’s so scared,” Hall said. He said that Thais living on Koh Tao are especially scared to speak out, because they have names and addresses that can be easily tracked. This is their home, they can’t leave the way migrant workers or Western expats can. People are scared that their businesses will be closed or their lives will be threatened, even that they could be killed, Hall said.

Still will never get one baht from me on this island. I would love to see the entire island lose its tourism dollars. Too many people with sealed mouths. You want to save your business, speak the truth.

[JohnThailandJohn]

JD is there corruption within the RTP a simple yes no response is suffice ?

Is there corruption in the UK police?

Did I ask about the UK police? I asked you a direct question about the RTP and you failed to answer but chose instead to deflect the question.

That speaks volumes about your stances and support of the RTP. Up to you.

Actually you tried to ask a question and demand that it only be answered two ways as if a yes or no answer would mean something ... the UK Police have examined the evidence and the case and the Thai police handling. Just because corrution exists in every profession and police lie in court in most places doesn't make everyone innocent or even most of them or even a good percentage of them.

It appears the UK police agree with the Thai police findings in this case when it comes to them having the right guys in custody.

So what is your point? We know corruption and abuse happens in police departments throughout the world and generally speaking it happens more in less developed nations. So to answer your question, Yes --- again, your point given UK police have actually examined and looked at the investigation first hand and shared this info with the parents who are confident the police have the right people.

Edited December 8, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn