Palestinian minister dies at West Bank protest

[Steely Dan]

Arab media is reporting, that he was hit very hard in the chest, with a armyhelmet.

And NO, the guy was not sick all ready, as the scumbag IDF-controlled media reports.

It's absolutely crazy, and disgusting, that western governments supports the Israeli-terror-regime

Personally, I find it more disgusting that not only an ex killer can be a minister but also that a minister would be inciting violence , while claiming to want to have peace.

Like many American and Israeli ministers? Where would you place Henry Kissinger and Ariel Sharon? (and many others)

Oh well, old dogs are hard to learn new tricks. To be honest - I have no hope at all, that most of the american-crowd in here, will ever leap out of the indoctrination, they got in their early years.

But let me repeat; IMHO all support for israel's murder and abuse of the people, they stole land from, is disgusting. If people can't see that, they should crawl back in the barn, they came from

Why do people think, that most of the well functioning European-countries, condemn Israels policy's and are now starting to acknowledge Palestine as a nation? Israel is behaving like, they where treated by that short Austrian guy, its simply unbelievable.

They only way one battle stupidity like this, is through education.....so I guess nothing will change, over there

Well functioning European Countries. ROFLMFAO, more like stagnating morally compromised and infiltrated by Islamists and their leftist enablers.

[Ulysses G.]

Philistines were war-like trouble makers who no one wanted.

Which is exactly what most Arab countries think of the Palestinians today. They have little use for them - other than to use them as pawns against Israel.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

Shitty ignorant propaganda that no one believe in. Israel is built on stolen land from Palestinians by people who belong to central Europe.

This is reality you like it or not.

Israel is a criminal and racist state run by war criminals.

How many times does it have to be said? There never was a nation called Palestine and there never was a people called Palestinians until the PLO hijacked those names for themselves in the 1980's.

There was a region called Palestine that encompassed all or part of several nations but not a country or a people. Israel was in Palestine. So was Jordan and Syria and others.

Israel as a nation on the other hand is in the historical record going back more than 3,000 years.

So how did Israel steal land from people who were nomadic wanderers and who were previously Philistines? Philistines were war-like trouble makers who no one wanted. How did Israel steal land from a people who never had land and who existed as Philistines?

The backdrop for this specific protest were ongoing friction and hostilities between local Palestinian villagers and Illegal Israeli settlers from a nearby illegal (even by Israeli law) settlement. One of the reasons making this illegal settlement illegal is that it is partially built on privately owned Palestinian land.

The differing overall narratives of both sides do not preclude specific instances of injustice. This is one of them.

[Morch]

From the footage I've seen, it appears that he died from attempting to play a young man's game more than anything else. It looks like a volatile situation where a combination of adrenaline and high blood pressure from anger would push existing health issues over the edge if they exist. Even if Israel agrees the shove may have 'contributed' to the heart attack (again - volatile situation, adrenaline, high blood pressure from anger), to lay 100% blame on Israel for that heart attack would be odd. I'm going to ignore his past for a moment and say that it was an unfortunate death. Occasionally you even hear of civilians dying after being tazered. In those cases, did an officer fully intend to end someone's life when they fired the tazer? No.

This argument may be correct. It is also pretty irrelevant in the sense that issues between the sides usually do not get resolved in a courtroom. Even if they were, highly unlikely that rulings, factual as they may be, would prove acceptable to all of the parties involved. A similar case with Thai politics, where court rulings, even if supported by facts, usually do not convince ardent supporters of either side, when these are not in their favor.

[Steely Dan]

From the footage I've seen, it appears that he died from attempting to play a young man's game more than anything else. It looks like a volatile situation where a combination of adrenaline and high blood pressure from anger would push existing health issues over the edge if they exist. Even if Israel agrees the shove may have 'contributed' to the heart attack (again - volatile situation, adrenaline, high blood pressure from anger), to lay 100% blame on Israel for that heart attack would be odd. I'm going to ignore his past for a moment and say that it was an unfortunate death. Occasionally you even hear of civilians dying after being tazered. In those cases, did an officer fully intend to end someone's life when they fired the tazer? No.

This argument may be correct. It is also pretty irrelevant in the sense that issues between the sides usually do not get

resolved in a courtroom. Even if they were, highly unlikely that rulings, factual as they may be, would prove acceptable

to all of the parties involved. A similar case with Thai politics, where court rulings, even if supported by facts, usually do

not convince ardent supporters of either side, when these are not in their favor.

The same of course applies to posts on this, and most forums I would hazard a guess. It's ironic though how the death of one Palestinian politician in less than clear circumstances elicits the same Pavlovian outrage amongst certain posters, who seem completely oblivious to the fact Islamic terrorists killed over seven people an hour throughout the month of November.

[Morch]

From the footage I've seen, it appears that he died from attempting to play a young man's game more than anything else. It looks like a volatile situation where a combination of adrenaline and high blood pressure from anger would push existing health issues over the edge if they exist. Even if Israel agrees the shove may have 'contributed' to the heart attack (again - volatile situation, adrenaline, high blood pressure from anger), to lay 100% blame on Israel for that heart attack would be odd. I'm going to ignore his past for a moment and say that it was an unfortunate death. Occasionally you even hear of civilians dying after being tazered. In those cases, did an officer fully intend to end someone's life when they fired the tazer? No.

This argument may be correct. It is also pretty irrelevant in the sense that issues between the sides usually do not get

resolved in a courtroom. Even if they were, highly unlikely that rulings, factual as they may be, would prove acceptable

to all of the parties involved. A similar case with Thai politics, where court rulings, even if supported by facts, usually do

not convince ardent supporters of either side, when these are not in their favor.

The same of course applies to posts on this, and most forums I would hazard a guess. It's ironic though how the death of one Palestinian politician in less than clear circumstances elicits the same Pavlovian outrage amongst certain posters, who seem completely oblivious to the fact Islamic terrorists killed over seven people an hour throughout the month of November.

Many people (not just on this forum, although a fine example) are set in their opinions and do not let facts meddle with their own agendas, narratives and adopted political stances. Furthermore, even the possibility of the existence of another world view usually meets with total negation, not to mention the shocking suggestion that two parallel views may co-exist at the same time and not necessarily cancel each other out.

Cuts both ways - I would guess most posters would not be able to cite how many Palestinians were injured/killed in a given frame time unless something gets a headline. Or how many civilians get killed in coalition attacks in Iraq. Same goes for just about every conflict wherever - people go by headlines, by notable deaths.

Not that I see this incident as meriting the usual Pavlovian onslaught mentioned, but then the blanket defense for anything done by Israel does not seem that far off. Also, not exactly sure how this incident is supposed to somehow balance out with Islamic terrorist killings elsewhere.

[ABCer]

NeverSure, I'm really surprised. Usually you are more careful in your posts.

(quote # 31) - " how did Israel steal land from people who were nomadic wanderers"

Israel deprived them from nomading around!

Your second big mistake is - you are quoting and trying to argue with Petchou

(quote # 25) - "Israel is a criminal and racist state run by war criminals."

"Shitty ignorant propaganda that no one believe in. Israel is built on stolen land from Palestinians by people who belong to central Europe."

Please, try to be more selective in who you argue with.

Paraphrasing his own expressions - shitty ignorant propaganda is all there is instead of his brain. Does it matter who shitted it in?

Respect yourself.

And do not worry too much about Israel. Luckily for Israelis there are many millions of brainless creatures nomading around.

[Steely Dan]

From the footage I've seen, it appears that he died from attempting to play a young man's game more than anything else. It looks like a volatile situation where a combination of adrenaline and high blood pressure from anger would push existing health issues over the edge if they exist. Even if Israel agrees the shove may have 'contributed' to the heart attack (again - volatile situation, adrenaline, high blood pressure from anger), to lay 100% blame on Israel for that heart attack would be odd. I'm going to ignore his past for a moment and say that it was an unfortunate death. Occasionally you even hear of civilians dying after being tazered. In those cases, did an officer fully intend to end someone's life when they fired the tazer? No.

This argument may be correct. It is also pretty irrelevant in the sense that issues between the sides usually do not get

resolved in a courtroom. Even if they were, highly unlikely that rulings, factual as they may be, would prove acceptable

to all of the parties involved. A similar case with Thai politics, where court rulings, even if supported by facts, usually do

not convince ardent supporters of either side, when these are not in their favor.

The same of course applies to posts on this, and most forums I would hazard a guess. It's ironic though how the death of one Palestinian politician in less than clear circumstances elicits the same Pavlovian outrage amongst certain posters, who seem completely oblivious to the fact Islamic terrorists killed over seven people an hour throughout the month of November.

Many people (not just on this forum, although a fine example) are set in their opinions and do not let facts meddle with their

own agendas, narratives and adopted political stances. Furthermore, even the possibility of the existence of another world

view usually meets with total negation, not to mention the shocking suggestion that two parallel views may co-exist at the

same time and not necessarily cancel each other out.

Cuts both ways - I would guess most posters would not be able to cite how many Palestinians were injured/killed in a given

frame time unless something gets a headline. Or how many civilians get killed in coalition attacks in Iraq. Same goes for just

about every conflict wherever - people go by headlines, by notable deaths.

Not that I see this incident as meriting the usual Pavlovian onslaught mentioned, but then the blanket defense for anything

done by Israel does not seem that far off. Also, not exactly sure how this incident is supposed to somehow balance out with

Islamic terrorist killing elsewhere.

I take your point of course, however those who condemn Israel tend to be the same ones who try to curtail discussion of militant Islam, which is why I mentioned it. Before getting down to the nitty gritty as to how culpable or otherwise the Israeli army was I would cite the example of Tacitus, why fight the enemy on territory of their own choosing? I admire your forbearance for so doing, but I don't see this regrettable incident as having much legs with respect to those who have an agenda to stir up unrest, there are bigger fish to fry, which is why there is active cooperation between Israel, Egypt and even Saudi Arabia at the moment, Edited December 12, 2014 by Steely Dan

[Morch]

This argument may be correct. It is also pretty irrelevant in the sense that issues between the sides usually do not get resolved in a courtroom. Even if they were, highly unlikely that rulings, factual as they may be, would prove acceptable to all of the parties involved. A similar case with Thai politics, where court rulings, even if supported by facts, usually do not convince ardent supporters of either side, when these are not in their favor.

The same of course applies to posts on this, and most forums I would hazard a guess. It's ironic though how the death of one Palestinian politician in less than clear circumstances elicits the same Pavlovian outrage amongst certain posters, who seem completely oblivious to the fact Islamic terrorists killed over seven people an hour throughout the month of November.

Many people (not just on this forum, although a fine example) are set in their opinions and do not let facts meddle with their own agendas, narratives and adopted political stances. Furthermore, even the possibility of the existence of another world view usually meets with total negation, not to mention the shocking suggestion that two parallel views may co-exist at the same time and not necessarily cancel each other out.

Cuts both ways - I would guess most posters would not be able to cite how many Palestinians were injured/killed in a given frame time unless something gets a headline. Or how many civilians get killed in coalition attacks in Iraq. Same goes for just about every conflict wherever - people go by headlines, by notable deaths.

Not that I see this incident as meriting the usual Pavlovian onslaught mentioned, but then the blanket defense for anything done by Israel does not seem that far off. Also, not exactly sure how this incident is supposed to somehow balance out with Islamic terrorist killing elsewhere.

I take your point of course, however those who condemn Israel tend to be the same ones who try to curtail discussion of militant Islam, which is why I mentioned it. Before getting down to the nitty gritty as to how culpable or otherwise the Israeli army was I would cite the example of Tacitus, why fight the enemy on territory of their own choosing? I admire your forbearance for so doing, but I don't see this regrettable incident as having much legs with respect to those who have an agenda to stir up unrest, there are bigger fish to fry, which is why there is active cooperation between Israel, Egypt and even Saudi Arabia at the moment,

That posters use any slightly related topic to air their pet agendas is (sadly) pretty much the norm on TVF, and with regard to a multitude of topics/agendas. Certain keywords mentioned in an OP and OT we go...

People often care more about airing their pet agendas than actually discussing things at hand, nothing new.

Regardless of the laying of blame and the TVF pseudo-historian society meeting - this incident comes at a very tricky time for both sides. The Fatah leadership face a dilemma - they cannot be seen as letting this go (especially not with Hamas making the usual noises, and the Abu Ein being quite well known and popular among the hotheaded elements in the Fatah), so they make vague statements about retribution and calling off off security coordination arrangements with Israel. This is easier said than done, as the security coordination benefits and sustains the Fatah, while cutting it off will strengthen Hamas. Therefore, they play for time (government meeting delayed, for second time, to Sunday).

While the incident itself may contribute to the Palestinian international recognition effort, cancelling the security coordination arrangements would have an opposite effect (as far as most EU countries are concerned). And all this happens to with Fatah gearing up to sorting its post-Abbas leadership next month, so some obviously play for the home crowd's benefit.

If any major flareup ensues, there could be implications as far as the Israeli elections go. Hard to guess how such a mess could pan out, but probably nothing that would spell anything good for neither side, unless referring to extreme elements of both.