chiang mai Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Comparisons of readings of anything, over a five day period, do not indicate trend or much else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueyeshk Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 This was just a day break as they were busy celebrating Buddha day as certain as the sunrises everyday you will cough tomorrow again - and full force until rains shows mercy with us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onthedarkside Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 2 off topic posts removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awk Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 It's even clearer with this PM2.5 one below. From http://aqicn.org/city/thailand/chiangmai/yupparaj-wittayalai-school/m/ this week as the temperature rises the pressure falls and the wind rises, perhaps taking some of the smoke high enough in the air streams to get carried away. The wind fits the 10am-2pm period where the levels are decreasing. Today was the least windy and the highest PM levels, but if burning increases there's unlikely to be enough wind to compensate for that. I also guess from this graph the local farmers are getting up at 6am for a session of burning, and so this makes me feel most of the problem is local rather than far away. That is some rather nice graphs. If there is a fairly predictable time of day when it is less bad to be out and perhaps exercising, that is interesting I thought. I have been wondering whether the trend your graphs show was present over a larger range of days, and finally got around to check that. The first plot I attach is pm10 for all years I could get data for (end of 2010 till present date), and shows the month of February during those years (2011 - 2015). In total there were 3833 measurements for February during those years, and each measurement represents a point on the graph. I.e., if the there are 10 points for the time "4", that means measurements were available for hour 04 at 10 different days in February. I don't know why many measurements are missing from the data available from the aqmthai website . Perhaps the monitoring station has some reliability issues. The trend is not as obvious as in your graph, but can still be seen, even over five years. Plotting February separately for each year, there seems to be some small variance in when the pm10 level starts to raise from year to year, but in all graphs, it seems to be falling at 14:00. As I understand it, and as I think you say, the measurements show the average of the past hour. So if the pm10 level is shown as falling at 14:00, it probably means it started to fall at 13:00 or a little later. Year 2011 and this year seem to show the trend especially clear, while other years less so. I attach similar graphs for the month of March also. For that month, year 2011 also shows the trend especially clear, so perhaps this March will also continue to show the same trend. For March this year, the measurements are up to midnight March 5. I just finished generating the graph and have no conclusion to draw, at least not at the moment. I am not sure any interesting conclusion can be drawn, but perhaps somebody smarter will see something, so I thought I might as well upload them since I had already generated them. month-02_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-02_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-02_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-02_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-02_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-02_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-03_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-03_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-03_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-03_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-03_pm10-by-hour.pdf month-03_pm10-by-hour.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awk Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I noticed the ug/m3 readings have a daily cycle, except today unusually high most of the day. AQI is much smoother because it averages over 24 hours, so this detail is missed. Here's a graph of the past few days, so it seems the best time to get stuff done outside is around 12pm-7pm. The readings come in an hour or two delayed so this info isn't available real time. I'm assuming unscientifically that inside the house is safer, just seems much fresher air inside. The bottom axis is time. Using the Dylos DC1700 I did some amateur measurements last year, including evaluating the effect of being inside, versus being outside. I posted the PDF resulting from my amateur analysis here on thaivisa for anyone interested, but just to recap that part: - There are about 30% fewer particles with the a size above pm2.5 inside, compared to outside. I.e., as far as pm10 is concerned, it is quite a bit better to be inside. - There is no significant differences between inside and outside for particles smaller than pm2.5. Unfortunately, pm2.5 is, most now seem to think, the main hazard, and being inside does not help. What does help is running an AC, with or without 3M Filtrete, or better, an air purifier. Best: AC and air purifier. Based on the trend your graphs showed, I had some worries, and therefore did some more measurements with the dc1700 the past few days. Both this Friday and last Wednesday, air downstairs inside the house (the living room, where no air purifier runs during the evening/night) was considerably worse in the morning than the air outside. The particle count inside was close to 10,000, while outside it was roughly half of that. These measurements were done around 11:00 in the morning. I wonder if one explanation might be that improvements in air quality outside is related to temperature, though I will not at the moment hazard to guess exactly how. Outside at 11:00, it's quite hot, and if this causes the pollution to go away (perhaps by the polluted air heating and, at least temporarily, raising?), this effect may not be equally present inside the house, where is is much cooler than outside. After a while, the pm2.5 count inside and outside is fairly close (at least for the poorly constructed house we live in), but this can take quite a few hours, and might depend on wind conditions too. I tried ventilating by opening the two doors downstairs to the outside, but could not measure any significant improvements. I wonder if placing a fan outside the door, blowing air in, will have a more measurable effect and more quickly bring the indoor air quality to a level similar to the outside. Instead I carry the air purifiers down from the upstairs bedrooms, both of them, as only one has little effect on the large downstairs living room, but even both air purifiers running at max power use several hours to lower the particle count considerably. Perhaps placing a fan in the doorway first, before closing the doors and switching on the air purifiers, will make the process faster. Will try that next time. Well, that was Wednesday and Friday morning. On Thursday morning, there was for some reason no big difference between the inside and outside. I see now that according to the aqmthai, the pm 2.5 count was considerably lower on Thursday morning than on Wednesday and Friday morning, so perhaps it is somehow related to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I thought it worthwhile posting the link here since so few posters understand that much of the pollution we experience in the North currently is imported from the South West, from Myanmar: http://www.windfinder.com/weather-maps/report/thailand#6/19.456/97.251 Doubting Thomas's may wish to review the forecast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESmith Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I thought it worthwhile posting the link here since so few posters understand that much of the pollution we experience in the North currently is imported from the South West, from Myanmar: http://www.windfinder.com/weather-maps/report/thailand#6/19.456/97.251 Doubting Thomas's may wish to review the forecast. A week ago when this all kicked off, I was at the top of Doi Suthep & around 9.30am the views south & west were the clearest I've ever seen them. The view east was looking down on a sea of smoke. By 10.30am the smoke had risen to Wat Doi Suthep level. Down at city level visibility was very poor. This smoke is generated locally. If it had come from Burma, they must have smuggled it in container trucks or there's a pipeline. When there's wind, the smoke clears, it doesn't arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywais Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 Reminder of this forum rule, one post removed. 26) The Bangkok Post and Phuketwan do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post or Phuketwan publications will be deleted from the forum.These restrictions are put in place by the above publications, not Thaivisa.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_Dog Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I thought it worthwhile posting the link here since so few posters understand that much of the pollution we experience in the North currently is imported from the South West, from Myanmar: http://www.windfinder.com/weather-maps/report/thailand#6/19.456/97.251 Doubting Thomas's may wish to review the forecast. A week ago when this all kicked off, I was at the top of Doi Suthep & around 9.30am the views south & west were the clearest I've ever seen them. The view east was looking down on a sea of smoke. By 10.30am the smoke had risen to Wat Doi Suthep level. Down at city level visibility was very poor. This smoke is generated locally. If it had come from Burma, they must have smuggled it in container trucks or there's a pipeline. When there's wind, the smoke clears, it doesn't arrive. I think there was one year where the winds from the north did seem to bring in more smoke, but you are right that the great majority of the particulates this season are locally generated. If the winds pop up , as they did around noon today, you can see the fast drop in the PM10 levels. Don't see how it could be smoke from Myanmar if the 5-10 MPH winds can disburse it so quickly. Things will be the same next year as well as the locals head for the forest to light it on fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evenstevens Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 the smog of the past week. or so, is coming from myanmar what next?? gosh a pig has just flown by my window,there we go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Big sigh! It is an indisputable fact that wind currents, according to the various wind maps, blow from the South West and from Myanmar presently. Having not examined personally the precise contents of that air I am sadly unable to provide a precise analysis of it! But never mind, logic and fact combine to confirm that said winds must surely contain "something" and since Myanmar is a prime source of burning (according to NASA), it's perhaps reasonable to presume that that "something" might contain particulate matter, are you keeping up thus far? All of that is not to suggest that reports from esteemed forum members and others who have reported first hand evidence of local burning are incorrect, indeed they are not The challenge, for those who are willing and able is to determine the percentage split between home grown pollution and imported pollution - were the wind currents in a different direction that challenge might be easier, regrettably for you they are not so perhaps you should ask your pig and see what it has to say on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESmith Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Which ever direction the wind blows from will be the cause of CM pollution in your opinion. Sorry, but you need to look a bit closer to home. Good luck in your search for double glazing, but I think you might have a problem getting the rose tinted finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Which ever direction the wind blows from will be the cause of CM pollution in your opinion. Sorry, but you need to look a bit closer to home. Good luck in your search for double glazing, but I think you might have a problem getting the rose tinted finish. I expected better from you MES! One more time, I do not dispute the existence of local burning, the extent of it nor it's impact. But the larger picture is somewhat more complicated and involves thermals, imported pollution and the inversion layer in addition to home grown burning, listening to many posters here it seems there is only one answer, home grown pollution, I do not agree even a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_Dog Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Which ever direction the wind blows from will be the cause of CM pollution in your opinion. Sorry, but you need to look a bit closer to home. Good luck in your search for double glazing, but I think you might have a problem getting the rose tinted finish. I expected better from you MES! One more time, I do not dispute the existence of local burning, the extent of it nor it's impact. But the larger picture is somewhat more complicated and involves thermals, imported pollution and the inversion layer in addition to home grown burning, listening to many posters here it seems there is only one answer, home grown pollution, I do not agree even a little bit. I am sure some blows in from other areas, but from my experience flying around forest fires in the Pacific Northwest, if you eliminate the fires within 100 km of Chiang Mai, the PM10 levels would never get very high here. The government likes to blame it on other countries as that allows them to ignore all the Thai Nationals that are in the forest setting fires (including tonight) for mushroom season or for agricultural clearing. The air was quite clear this afternoon so I fail to see how much of it is coming from far away, but I will keep an open mind CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mapguy Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 MES usually has some commonsensical observations that do indeed make sense. Observations, of course, are at the heart of the scientific analysis. CM, as you have pointed out, it is true that the problem is a regional problem and that the prevailing wind at this time of the year is basically the SW monsoon. And, as you have pointed out, from there is does indeed get complicated. We don't have enough good data and knowledge of particle behavior. We don't know how high, how far, and how long PM<10 and, especially PM<2.5 particles fly before settling out. We do know that lighter particles tend to stay aloft longer than heavier particles. I think you agree that it is reasonable to hypothesize that local conditions have significantly more impact than relatively distant effects. I think that is what MES is generally saying. I agree with him. An example would be today. For yesterday, FIRMS reported the greatest number of local fires so far this year. (FIRMS, for newcomers, really only reports the more extensive fires, and the satellites don't park above our valley or NW Thailand all day.) This morning it looked like Beijing out there! Really nasty! That, of course, doesn't preclude the impact of Burmese smoke, but think about it! Look at MES' post #157 (and similar ones in the past). I wouldn't be terribly upset about what he reports. Yes, there is certainly "something" (as you put it) in the SW monsoon, but I agree with MES that one should look closer to home for the major impact. Now, just to change the topic for a moment, which way are bond yields going to go in 2015? Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Which ever direction the wind blows from will be the cause of CM pollution in your opinion. Sorry, but you need to look a bit closer to home. Good luck in your search for double glazing, but I think you might have a problem getting the rose tinted finish. I expected better from you MES! One more time, I do not dispute the existence of local burning, the extent of it nor it's impact. But the larger picture is somewhat more complicated and involves thermals, imported pollution and the inversion layer in addition to home grown burning, listening to many posters here it seems there is only one answer, home grown pollution, I do not agree even a little bit. I am sure some blows in from other areas, but from my experience flying around forest fires in the Pacific Northwest, if you eliminate the fires within 100 km of Chiang Mai, the PM10 levels would never get very high here. The government likes to blame it on other countries as that allows them to ignore all the Thai Nationals that are in the forest setting fires (including tonight) for mushroom season or for agricultural clearing. The air was quite clear this afternoon so I fail to see how much of it is coming from far away, but I will keep an open mind CM. Long may your mind stay that way! But to be clear: in no way shape or form is my view a copy of any government view, my expectation here is that free thinking individuals, plus a couple of non-thinkers, will combine to conclude, insofar as it is possible to do so, the cause and potential remedies to the pollution issue in CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mapguy Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Sorry, I can't help it: Remove rice from the list of essential global grain crops ?! Just trying to lighten things up a little, not to be nasty! Just a little black humor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 MES usually has some commonsensical observations that do indeed make sense. Observations, of course, are at the heart of the scientific analysis. CM, as you have pointed out, it is true that the problem is a regional problem and that the prevailing wind at this time of the year is basically the SW monsoon. And, as you have pointed out, from there is does indeed get complicated. We don't have enough good data and knowledge of particle behavior. We don't know how high, how far, and how long PM<10 and, especially PM<2.5 particles fly before settling out. We do know that lighter particles tend to stay aloft longer than heavier particles. I think you agree that it is reasonable to hypothesize that local conditions have significantly more impact than relatively distant effects. I think that is what MES is generally saying. I agree with him. An example would be today. For yesterday, FIRMS reported the greatest number of local fires so far this year. (FIRMS, for newcomers, really only reports the more extensive fires, and the satellites don't park above our valley or NW Thailand all day.) This morning it looked like Beijing out there! Really nasty! That, of course, doesn't preclude the impact of Burmese smoke, but think about it! Look at MES' post #157 (and similar ones in the past). I wouldn't be terribly upset about what he reports. Yes, there is certainly "something" (as you put it) in the SW monsoon, but I agree with MES that one should look closer to home for the major impact. Now, just to change the topic for a moment, which way are bond yields going to go in 2015? Cheers! I want to agree with your statement but I'm unsure as evidenced by, "We don't know how high, how far, and how long PM<10 and, especially PM<2.5 particles fly before settling out. We do know that lighter particles tend to stay aloft longer than heavier particles". Bond yields, that's easy, down and out is the clear answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mapguy Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 MES usually has some commonsensical observations that do indeed make sense. Observations, of course, are at the heart of the scientific analysis. CM, as you have pointed out, it is true that the problem is a regional problem and that the prevailing wind at this time of the year is basically the SW monsoon. And, as you have pointed out, from there is does indeed get complicated. We don't have enough good data and knowledge of particle behavior. We don't know how high, how far, and how long PM<10 and, especially PM<2.5 particles fly before settling out. We do know that lighter particles tend to stay aloft longer than heavier particles. I think you agree that it is reasonable to hypothesize that local conditions have significantly more impact than relatively distant effects. I think that is what MES is generally saying. I agree with him. An example would be today. For yesterday, FIRMS reported the greatest number of local fires so far this year. (FIRMS, for newcomers, really only reports the more extensive fires, and the satellites don't park above our valley or NW Thailand all day.) This morning it looked like Beijing out there! Really nasty! That, of course, doesn't preclude the impact of Burmese smoke, but think about it! Look at MES' post #157 (and similar ones in the past). I wouldn't be terribly upset about what he reports. Yes, there is certainly "something" (as you put it) in the SW monsoon, but I agree with MES that one should look closer to home for the major impact. Now, just to change the topic for a moment, which way are bond yields going to go in 2015? Cheers! I want to agree with your statement but I'm unsure as evidenced by, "We don't know how high, how far, and how long PM<10 and, especially PM<2.5 particles fly before settling out. We do know that lighter particles tend to stay aloft longer than heavier particles". Bond yields, that's easy, down and out is the clear answer. Responding to Part One: Well, we DON'T know everything about the nature of airborne particles! Responding to Part Two: <removed> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onthedarkside Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Some recent quotes have been altered in bold/underline. This is not permitted under forum etiquette and have been edited back to the standard format. 2. Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording. Such posts will be deleted and the user warned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNXBKKMAN Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I am not a scientist and i don't think much before i type but i have noticed during the last week that when the wind blows for a few hours the CM pollution and visibility improve significantly enough for me to jump on my bike and get some exercise whilst i can. When the wind isn't blowing the visibility is worse and the pollution appears to be much worse. If the pollution is being blown in from elsewhere like Burma wouldn't the pollution be worse on a day with winds and the better air quality would be on calm days? This would be opposite of what i observe though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awk Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Which ever direction the wind blows from will be the cause of CM pollution in your opinion. Sorry, but you need to look a bit closer to home. Good luck in your search for double glazing, but I think you might have a problem getting the rose tinted finish. This is necessary to maintain the balance in the universe. Somewhere there is a Burmese equivalent of the thaivisa forum, and on that forum somebody is posting that the problem is caused by the remote burning in Thailand. Perhaps there is even somebody in China also posting that. It is however possible, I guess. I have often thought it would serve as a great subject for a master's thesis, or perhaps even a decent Ph.d., to attempt to quantify the amount of pm 2.5 / pm 10 mass that is produced here locally, versus blown in from other countries. No idea how that could be done, nor have I given it any thought, but that is what research is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 STOP THE PRESS!!! http://www.aroundthemoat.com/2015/03/07/official-thai-crop-burning-day/ Problem solved so move along folks, nothing else to see....move along.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywais Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 STOP THE PRESS!!! http://www.aroundthemoat.com/2015/03/07/official-thai-crop-burning-day/ Problem solved so move along folks, nothing else to see....move along.... A 'if you can't beat them, join them' attitude I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikster Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Where in Chiang Mai do I buy 3M filter material? I read someone had fitted these to their air-con models. I have some air filters where I can no longer buy refills. But they're really simple devices, if I had some 3M filter material I could just cut it to size and put it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywais Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 Where in Chiang Mai do I buy 3M filter material? I read someone had fitted these to their air-con models. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/712647-those-high-tech-air-con-filters/ http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/806480-home-ac-filters/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Where in Chiang Mai do I buy 3M filter material? I read someone had fitted these to their air-con models. I have some air filters where I can no longer buy refills. But they're really simple devices, if I had some 3M filter material I could just cut it to size and put it in. Home Pro had them last I checked, but that was a while ago. Fyi, we did the exact same thing on our air filters and they run fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MESmith Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I was up near the summit of Doi Pui this morning. Met a young Thai jogger at the Ban Doi Pui viewpoint & we got chatting about the smoke. After a short while he came out with the "actually, most of the smoke comes from Myanmar" line His English was perfect, so I guess he was one of the bright ones. Tempted to pick him up & throw him over the cliff Just kidding. He did agree that there's too much burning in Thailand & that the rural poor need educating about the effects of the smoke, but that "blame it on the neighbours" line Btw, the ridge of Inthanon was clear, just the lower bits to the east obscured by smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evenstevens Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 yes cobber, since 2001, i have that heard that myarmar line a thousand times,and throw LAOS in as well have permamently resided out in beverly hills. mae rim for 10 yrs, i have eyewitnessed all types of burning,some which would, rock anybodys socks off done the masei border visa runs countless times during this period,and have seen the early morning horizons during my travels up north a canopy of red this unkindly deed has to be weeded out first in the north,( plus lampang and tak)but alas i have more chance in winning another cup double,then this occurring quite a few years back,this kings rain making plane, did the trick, in equal horrid conditions that we are all exoeriencing now, so at reasonable odds i put a nice number on it to bring rain a nice evening to all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikster Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Where in Chiang Mai do I buy 3M filter material? I read someone had fitted these to their air-con models. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/712647-those-high-tech-air-con-filters/ http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/806480-home-ac-filters/ Thanks!! I didn't realize this has been answered a few times already in this thread, my apologies. Will try Baan & Beyond and then that place on wualai road. I'm only here for 1 more week but next burning season is a certainty, can't hurt to stock up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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