Advice on Home Electric Problems

[Vogele123]

I was hoping to pick someones brains - like Crossy,

I am trying to sort out some basic electric problems for an old lady who lives on her own near me, she cannot afford a sparky and suffers from cut outs from her electric.

I had a look at her supply, it is the 45 Ampere mains, it runs into a Safety Cut box and then into one of these boxes with all of the safety cut outs. (RCD breakers / trips)

The Safety Cut was set on the 25,A setting, but I now set it to DIRECT, I expected that by doing this it would force one of the individual breakers to cut out on the breaker box so I could identify which of the wiring was causing the problem.

She only uses about four of the 12 or so breakers and most of them are for lighting, we have switched off everything (at the breaker) that she does not use.

Basically there are 4 breakers used, these supply basic current to the lights, 1 circuit for upstairs one for down, the other two are for the fridge and a few sockets, the other is for the TV.

Last night the bugger tripped again, however it is not tripping the individual breakers on any of the four loops, it is tripping the main breaker on the D-Way or whatever it is called box.

The Safety-Cut is on DIRECT, none of the 5 ampere stuff is tripping, just the main breaker on the very left side, wonder if anyone has any ideas where to start looking?

I would have expected the 5 ampere breakers to trip before the master....am I missing something?

Thanks

[metisdead]

Moved to the electrical forum.

[lopburi3]

You have put her life in danger by removing Safe-t-cut protection from accidental contact with live wire. Please return that to operation as it is obviously not the problem.

It may be as simple as the main breaker is defective - was that what was blowing before the Safe-t-cut was removed (direct removes it)?

[Vogele123]

You have put her life in danger by removing Safe-t-cut protection from accidental contact with live wire. Please return that to operation as it is obviously not the problem.

What utter RUBBISH, the Safety-Cut is just another trip. The RCD breakers will cut out if there is any problem.

I was looking for someone with some common sense not this sort of ridiculous reply.

The D-Box breakers work fine without a Safety-Cut box, so before offering erroneous advice please check your facts.

The Safety Cut is just another safety device, sometimes over sensitive, it can cut out when there is a thunderstorm.

The RCB or current breakers are safe to use just on their own.

Bypassing the Safety Cut and using just the normal breakers is not putting anyones life at risk at all, you need to get your facts right mate!

Edited December 18, 2014 by Vogele123

[Vogele123]

Many houses here just use the D-box with various rated cut outs for different circuits, there is absolutely no need for the D-box and a safety cut, I am not putting anyone's life in danger. A trip will trip, it does not need the safety-cut

Edited December 18, 2014 by Vogele123

[Vogele123]

You have put her life in danger by removing Safe-t-cut protection from accidental contact with live wire. Please return that to operation as it is obviously not the problem.

It may be as simple as the main breaker is defective - was that what was blowing before the Safe-t-cut was removed (direct removes it)?

I would rather wait for a reply from someone that actually knows what they are talking about, like Crossy. thanks all the same!

[lopburi3]

The Safe-t-cut is normally the only RCD breaker - the breakers in box would trip at rated amperage - there is a huge difference between 25ma and 5amps.

[bankruatsteve]

FWI: The main breaker in most Safe-T-Cut boxes that I have seen is an RCBO: meaning it has both over-current protection (at 45amp if I read your OP correctly) and earth fault protection (RCD) selectable from direct to 30ma? When you set to direct, there is NO earth fault protection. The rest of the breakers in the box are usually just over-current breakers. So, if the main RCBO is tripping when set on direct it could be that it is faulty.

FWI: There is no correlation between RCD trip and over-current breaker trip.

[Vogele123]

FWI: The main breaker in most Safe-T-Cut boxes that I have seen is an RCBO: meaning it has both over-current protection (at 45amp if I read your OP correctly) and earth fault protection (RCD) selectable from direct to 30ma? When you set to direct, there is NO earth fault protection. The rest of the breakers in the box are usually just over-current breakers. So, if the main RCBO is tripping when set on direct it could be that it is faulty.

FWI: There is no correlation between RCD trip and over-current breaker trip.

Thanks, I understand that - Indeed, when set to direct the Safety_cut has no Earth fault protection, the entire home does not have a single earth - there is no ground, it is just 2 wire L & N which the Safety cut tries to differentiate a difference.

to say that by setting the Safety Cut to direct while still having the "Normal" D-Box breakers is putting anyones life at risk is just complete bullshit!

They are both safety systems, they work in a different manner but both will give you protection. I asked for a bit of help, not some scaremongering crap that insinuated that I was prepared to kill someone like that retard tried to make out. The electricity is still perfectly safe with the D-Box trips.

And in the 15 years I have been up North, no one I have ever seen uses just a Safety Cut, they all have the D-box as a first line of protection.

What I wanted to know was why the 45Amp D-box main trip would trigger rather than one of the smaller 5 amp trips on the same D-box wiring. nothing more. I didn't ask for a lecture, I didn't ask for numbskull incorrect comments, it was a simple question.

Like I said in the first post, it would have been nice to hear from someone that actually knew what they were talking about (Crossy) rather than the opinions of an uneducated fool.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Vogele123

[daveAustin]

Op, Lop is right, by going direct you've put her at risk. FYI, MCBs (your 'D-Box trips') are not sensitive/fast enough to prevent electrocution, while the RCD is. There could be a dodgy appliance -- fridge? -- outside sockets filled with ants or cables shorting to earth intermittently that could knock off the mains before the MCB. There may even be an issue with the RCD (are there frequent power cuts/brown outs there?), but typically the former -- appliances, outside cables/sockets/pumps.

By the way, have you tried valerian root?

[sipi]

A faulty main breaker or an internal fault between the main breaker and the 5 amp breakers. 45 amps is a hell of a load. You won't get that from her few appliances.

[sdanielmcev]

I agree disabling any safety device is foolish. If you just want advice from crossy, PM him.

[Crossy]

Sorry about the delay, last night was the office 'New Year' dinner

Please post some photos of what is installed, preferably with the lids off so we can see what we actually have and if anything untowards is going on internally.

The main breaker opening on overcurrent (if it's not an RCD) without any of the others doing so could indicate a faulty main breaker, or simply that the main is faster operating than the downstream units. Discrimination between series MCBs is a black art that few actually understand.

Do you have any test gear (a multimeter as a minimum)?

[bankruatsteve]

In the mean time... what the OP doesn't seem to fully understand is that over-current breakers (not sure why you call them "D-box" but assume the same) only protect the wire (from over heating and fires). A person can easily be electrocuted without tripping a breaker when the body becomes conduit for an earth fault. Protection for earth fault is the RCD. An RCD does not know about over-current.

[IMHO]

Photo needed.

[sipi]

I think OP does not know the difference between over-current, (protected by the circuit breakers after the RCDO and an "Earth-Leakage" (protected by the device what is set to "direct" now) and when someone tells him that what he did was very dangerous (what it is) he start to shout.

Thailand has about 25 deaths yearly by electrocution (official nrs.) My guess it it are much more.

Arjen.

Vogele may have become number 26.

[Vogele123]

Sorry about the delay, last night was the office 'New Year' dinner

Please post some photos of what is installed, preferably with the lids off so we can see what we actually have and if anything untowards is going on internally.

The main breaker opening on overcurrent (if it's not an RCD) without any of the others doing so could indicate a faulty main breaker, or simply that the main is faster operating than the downstream units. Discrimination between series MCBs is a black art that few actually understand.

Do you have any test gear (a multimeter as a minimum)?

Yes, I have an old faithful Fluke.

The Safety-Cut can be disconnected, run via "Direct" and the old womans breaker box has a 45 Amp ( Test Monthly) breaker fitted on the D-Box. (This is the one that tripped yesterday) It trips when you press TEST

Normally one of the 5 ampere breakers cuts out, lighting circuit. minimal drain on current. but now the 45 Ampere cut out first. (The 5 Amp trips do not have "Test" buttons they are the old shit)

It seems like as Crossy says, the main breaker is cutting in quicker than the old breakers on the individual circuits. If I am making the old bugger in danger, please let me know, but I need to know from a qualified spark not some drink fuelled keyboard areshole!

She runs one fridge, one TV and about 100Watts of lighting, most of the breakers from the D- box are off, she only has four 5 amp breakers that are in the on position, and they just run low wattage lights a TV and a fridge. This is why I worry about the 45 Amp / 60 Amp breaker going first.

When we had the Safety-Cut set to 25. one of the lighting circuits on the 5 Amp would trip now and again. But after switching to DIRECT on the Safety Cut, the 45/60 Amp main breaker is tripping, the 5 amp breakers are all still open.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Vogele123

[Vogele123]

Sorry about the delay, last night was the office 'New Year' dinner

Please post some photos of what is installed, preferably with the lids off so we can see what we actually have and if anything untowards is going on internally.

The main breaker opening on overcurrent (if it's not an RCD) without any of the others doing so could indicate a faulty main breaker, or simply that the main is faster operating than the downstream units. Discrimination between series MCBs is a black art that few actually understand.

Do you have any test gear (a multimeter as a minimum)?

Thanks Crossy, appreciated, you helped me in the past in another "NICK" - I will try and get a photo or two.

I think you already will be familiar with the Safety-Cut - it is the one with the selectable, 5, 10, 15,25 and Direct.

This is then wired into the D-Box, it has a 45/60 Amp breaker on the far left, with the "TEST EVERY MONTH", then it is linked to about 10 or twelve breakers, basic trip switches , no TEST or anything like that.

One of these 5 Amp jobbies used to keep tripping, after setting the Safety-Cut to DIRECT the 5 amp breakers no longer cut out but now the 45/60 Amp (Test every month) is switching out. I think that there is a problem with the wiring, maybe water or insects, nothing seems to be actually shorting, it is just some sort of leakage.

She only has Neutral and Live, it is all single phase, no earths nothing like that.

I really do not want to get involved, nor do I want to endanger her life, but I also see the problem she has when she is stuck alone in a house out in the sticks with no lights and no power.

[Crossy]

A few less than helpful posts removed, let's play nicely chaps.

Anyway. I'm intrigued by the 'TEST EVERY MONTH' breaker which implies an RCD/RCBO (so why does she have a Safe-T-Cut as well?).

This is why photos are vital, so we know what's actually there.

You're probably on the money with the damp getting in, but without an insulation tester you could be in for the long haul.

I would be investigating the 5A that kept tripping, what happens if you leave it off with the Safe-T-Cut set to 5mA?

[bankruatsteve]

While you are working on getting a photo, take a look at the wiring also. Guessing it is exposed and stapled vs. conduit or inside the walls? Look for staples that may be cutting into the insulation. Are any of those terrible extension cord wheels being used to power anything? Can you determine the wire size and if the same size is used throughout?

[overit]

Regardless of her protection hardware configuration, you need to find out exactly where the problem is.

If you can't do a live tong-test (as I previously recommended), the do a series of resistance tests.

With the breakers open, measure the resistance across each circuit and look for a low reading.

You have mentioned that the system isn't earthed. Go outside, tip a bucket of water on the ground and drive in a piece of reo-bar (or preferably an earth stake) 600mm to 1m. Measure the resistance between this bar and each circuit neutral, and again look for a low reading.

No point in looking for a dead gecko or a water leak until you have at least isolated the circuit.

[Crossy]

If you can't do a live tong-test (as I previously recommended), the do a series of resistance tests.

Please enlighten us non-techs as to exactly what a 'tong test' is, and where one can obtain the required equipment in Thailand.

[sipi]

If you can't do a live tong-test (as I previously recommended), the do a series of resistance tests.

Please enlighten us non-techs as to exactly what a 'tong test' is, and where one can obtain the required equipment in Thailand.

A live load test using a clamp-on amp meter, readily available from most electronic stores. The meter (commonly known as a "tong-tester" because it looks like a pair of bbq tongs) measures the amount of current being used in real time. It is clamped over the actve wire and is invaluable in these type of situations. For example if a breaker is rated at 5 amps and is pulling 3, and trips; the breaker is at fault. If the breaker is rated at 5 amps and the tong-tester is showing 7 amps; then there is a current draw somawhere on the circuit.

The bad news is that I bought my tong-tester to Thailand from Australia, and heven't had the need to shop for a new one here. They are a common tool, and I can imagine available from a good electronics wholesaler. Maybe hit you local air-con or satelite tv installer and ask if they know there to buy one.

[sipi]

http://www.thailandmultimeter.com/product_416273_en

http://www.alibaba.com/countrysearch/TH/dc-current-clamp-meter.html

[Crossy]

I have a clamp tester which I bought here (from Amorn). However it's not sensitive enough to determine why a 30mA RCD/RCBO is opening (which is what our OP is reporting). A regular multimeter, even on high-ohms, is unlikely to reveal a fault that's causing intermittent tripping, you need an insulation tester and the knowledge of how to use it.

Remember our readers are largely non-tech and have little, if any test equipment. In the absence of half decent sparkies we need to give them simple and safe instructions to help find what could be an intermittent fault.

I'm still awaiting some photos of the installation in question.

[bankruatsteve]

I have a clamp tester which I bought here (from Amorn). However it's not sensitive enough to determine why a 30mA RCD/RCBO is opening (which is what our OP is reporting). A regular multimeter, even on high-ohms, is unlikely to reveal a fault that's causing intermittent tripping, you need an insulation tester and the knowledge of how to use it.

Remember our readers are largely non-tech and have little, if any test equipment. In the absence of half decent sparkies we need to give them simple and safe instructions to help find what could be an intermittent fault.

I'm still awaiting some photos of the installation in question.

Unless I misread the OP (which I do at times), he is saying that her 5a was tripping but now it's the 45a (?) RCBO tripping when set on direct. Which doesn't make sense unless they are on different curves and she is getting intermittent short. (?) But yeah, a photo sure would help.

[sipi]

I have a clamp tester which I bought here (from Amorn). However it's not sensitive enough to determine why a 30mA RCD/RCBO is opening (which is what our OP is reporting). A regular multimeter, even on high-ohms, is unlikely to reveal a fault that's causing intermittent tripping, you need an insulation tester and the knowledge of how to use it.

Remember our readers are largely non-tech and have little, if any test equipment. In the absence of half decent sparkies we need to give them simple and safe instructions to help find what could be an intermittent fault.

I'm still awaiting some photos of the installation in question.

For sure. I was of the wrong understanding that the circuit breaker was tripping through overload. If he does have an insulation tester, some can put out voltages greater than 1000v (megger-meter), so yes; clear instructions are a must.

He has a Fluke MM which should be accurate enough to determine exactly where the fault is.

Awaiting those photos....

[sipi]

Never mind...We tried....

[Vogele123]

A few less than helpful posts removed, let's play nicely chaps.

Anyway. I'm intrigued by the 'TEST EVERY MONTH' breaker which implies an RCD/RCBO (so why does she have a Safe-T-Cut as well?).

This is why photos are vital, so we know what's actually there.

You're probably on the money with the damp getting in, but without an insulation tester you could be in for the long haul.

I would be investigating the 5A that kept tripping, what happens if you leave it off with the Safe-T-Cut set to 5mA?

Sorry, haven't been able to get a photo yet - Basically, if you set the Safety-cut to the most sensitive settings, 5mA or 15mA it will just trip immediately. 25mA will run for anything from 15 minutes to 3 days but will still trip.

There are only 4 breakers from the D-box connected, all of them rated at 5 Amp. When the Safety Cut was set to 25mA, the 4th breaker (5Amp) running her upstairs lights would trip maybe 50% of the time - sometimes it was the 5 Amp breaker, sometimes it was the Safety Cut at 25mA.

When the Safety Cut was set to DIRECT, NONE of the 5 Amp breakers tripped, it was the 45Amp "Test Monthly" that had tripped.

I believe that the main 45Amp breaker is doing the same job as the Safety Cut, that was why I was willing to set the Safety Cut to DIRECT - Her son had installed this about 20 years ago, I don't have any wiring diagrams for the place but I know for a fact that the place is riddled with damp due to water leaks everywhere upstairs (ceilings are all damp).

In DIRECT mode the only thing that tripped was the 45Amp "Test Every Month" breaker. If this thing is not doing the same job as the Safety Cut then I will happily reconnect the Safety Cut to 25mA. Like I said, I don't want to kill the old woman but she is on her own and it is no fun in the dark with candles, no fridge and no tv in the sticks. She has been trying to get a sparky to take a look but no one here seems to be interested in helping her out, they all claim to be too busy. She is almost 80 and on her own most nights (and she is the typical old Thai that is scared shitless about ghosts) I think the risk with the Direct setting on the Safety Cut is less than her burning candles and falling asleep at night. She doesn't actually touch any of the electrics other than switch the TV off and on with a remote. There is no washing machine, no hot water heater just lights, TV and a fridge - I disconnected the fridge by the way and the electrics keep tripping.

Cheers for your help.

[Vogele123]

I have a clamp tester which I bought here (from Amorn). However it's not sensitive enough to determine why a 30mA RCD/RCBO is opening (which is what our OP is reporting). A regular multimeter, even on high-ohms, is unlikely to reveal a fault that's causing intermittent tripping, you need an insulation tester and the knowledge of how to use it.

Remember our readers are largely non-tech and have little, if any test equipment. In the absence of half decent sparkies we need to give them simple and safe instructions to help find what could be an intermittent fault.

I'm still awaiting some photos of the installation in question.

Unless I misread the OP (which I do at times), he is saying that her 5a was tripping but now it's the 45a (?) RCBO tripping when set on direct. Which doesn't make sense unless they are on different curves and she is getting intermittent short. (?) But yeah, a photo sure would help.

No you are 100% correct, the 5A lighting ring was tripping when the Safety Cut was set to 25mA, when the Safety Cut is set to direct, the 5A does not trip but the 45A main breaker in the D-box tripped out. (I believe it is the same sort of safety device as the Safety Cut)