Israel dismisses Palestinian peace deal plan as 'gimmick'

[dexterm]

I'm sure in any peace deal Jews would still be allowed a safe haven within Israel from any discrimination they may suffer in other countries...

That is great that you are convinced, but since you are utterly hostile to Israel, I don't think that will convince anyone that they should follow your advice.

deleted post

The anti Semitic card is wearing a bit thin. Don't deflect and confuse any valid criticism of the state of Israel with anti Jewishness.

Please learn the differece between

Jew = a believer in Judaism or a person with a Jewish [grand]mother

Israeli = inhabitant of 67 borders Israel (80% Jews 20% Arab)

Zionist = fanatical believer that God gave Jews Palestine as the promised land...includes some Jews and rapture Christians.. as a result displacing millions of Palestinians who were already resident there.

It's Zionists only whom I dislike and despise. There is not a racist/religionist bone in my body.

PS I'd say the Zionists anti- Zionists run at about 50:50% on this forum, which makes sometimes for an interesting discussion.

Edited December 21, 2014 by petercool

[Ulysses G.]

I'm sure in any peace deal Jews would still be allowed a safe haven within Israel from any discrimination they may suffer in other countries...

That is great that you are convinced, but since you are utterly hostile to Israel, I don't think that will convince anyone that they should follow your advice.

deleted post

The anti Semitic card is wearing a bit thin.

There have been numerous anti-Semitic remarks deleted by the mods and many were from the exact same posters that post hateful comments about Israel obsessively. Boon Mee is making a valid point.

[Scott]

Stay on the topic, please.

[dexterm]

Thank you, Morch, for your well considered practical implementation of a solution to the conflict. I actually agree with you on many of your points: I can understand the demilitarization and Israel's current concerns about border control.

Sky rocketing real estate prices...would that I had that problem with my property! But that's nothing that a government couldn't solve with a balance between subsidies for first home owner occupier buyers, settlers restarting their lives within Israel itself, and punitive land taxes for outright speculators and abusers of the grants...all subsidized by generous EU, US, and global funding...chickenfeed for the world community compared with benefits reaped..

A few years down the track I could well see Israel and Palestine being invited to join the EU. They could all then live, work and worship in each others' countries anyway. Wouldn't it be ironic if Palestine were accepted but Israel refused because of its reluctance to allow non Jews to migrate there.

Anyway, that's probably decades away. I hope I live to see them all living in peace.

Meanwhile perhaps more courageous politicians will emerge to make the painful compromises.

Everything is so easy in dextermworld...

Real estate issues been plaguing Israeli economy (and society) for well over a decade now. Most of it got to do with high level of demand, and ongoing failures on part of governments. Your confidence in Israeli politicians' ability to tackle these issues is quite in contrast with public opinion in Israel - in fact, this is one of the main economic issues in the upcoming elections (as it was in the previous ones and so on....). Just to make things a bit more tangible, many of the Israelis moved during the unilateral pullout from the Gaza Strip, still live

in temporary lodgings. There were under 10k Israelis on the Gaza Strip at the time - in comparison to the West Bank this was kids play.

Once again, very easy to spread promises of generous funding by the USA and the EU. Not aware that there are concrete offers. May want to check what sums are involved before you volunteer national economies to such a venture. To put this in perspective, moans about the amount of USA aid to Israel would seem ridiculous compared to the probable price tag. Not "chickenfeed" by any standards, and not as if there a real return on the investment for donors.

EU membership? Where did that come from? Not aware that this is an option, or something discussed. There were talks on improved trade status etc, but not more than that. Palestine will not be up to EU standards (on more than one front) for years to come. Work, and shop in each others country? Within a few years? Not very much in touch with reality. And that silly little comment on immigration? May want to check the Palestinian stand on Jews/Israelis becoming citizens of Palestine, or for that matter - the possibility of other Arabs/Muslims getting the same.

I am finding you recent posts quite interesting, and much easier to read when you drop text wrap and format correctly...that's meant as a sincere comment, not a point scorer.

Along with your dose of reality which you take every morning, which I appreciate...either you live in Israel or are very close to events there...try popping an optimism pill too occasionally.

I still regard your "economic upheaval" as chickenfeed for the international community....and I'd be amazed if foreign politicians, especially those MEPs who recently voted for Palestinian statehood, balked at putting their hands in their pockets for peace, and instead said "Nope, we prefer war."

It would lessen tension in the entire Middle East and lead to increased trade and tourism. Reconstruction and infrastructure contracts a shot in the arm for overseas and domestic contractors. A easing on the global terror barometer too.

Germany successfully reunified, and Czechoslovakia successfully separated.

The EU begins 90 miles off the coast of Israel. It's only 25 years since the Berlin Wall fell and the EU has absorbed, albeit with some indigestion, basket cases such as Bulgaria and Romania, and now possibly Moldova and Georgia. Israel would fit far more neatly into the EU if it got its human rights house in order.

I am fearful that, as you suggest, the right wing Zionists will increase their hold on government. If that happens I too will be popping a pessimism pill, because that will only lead Israel into an economic cul-de-sac, further political isolation, probably more war, and almost certainly a one state solution where Israel will eventually lose its Jewish character.

Edited December 21, 2014 by dexterm

[petercool]

An inappropriate post removed along with a quote of that.

[Morch]

Thank you, Morch, for your well considered practical implementation of a solution to the conflict. I actually agree with you on many of your points: I can understand the demilitarization and Israel's current concerns about border control.

Sky rocketing real estate prices...would that I had that problem with my property! But that's nothing that a government couldn't solve with a balance between subsidies for first home owner occupier buyers, settlers restarting their lives within Israel itself, and punitive land taxes for outright speculators and abusers of the grants...all subsidized by generous EU, US, and global funding...chickenfeed for the world community compared with benefits reaped..

A few years down the track I could well see Israel and Palestine being invited to join the EU. They could all then live, work and worship in each others' countries anyway. Wouldn't it be ironic if Palestine were accepted but Israel refused because of its reluctance to allow non Jews to migrate there.

Anyway, that's probably decades away. I hope I live to see them all living in peace.

Meanwhile perhaps more courageous politicians will emerge to make the painful compromises.

Everything is so easy in dextermworld...

Real estate issues been plaguing Israeli economy (and society) for well over a decade now. Most of it got to do with high level of demand, and ongoing failures on part of governments. Your confidence in Israeli politicians' ability to tackle these issues is quite in contrast with public opinion in Israel - in fact, this is one of the main economic issues in the upcoming elections (as it was in the previous ones and so on....). Just to make things a bit more tangible, many of the Israelis moved during the unilateral pullout from the Gaza Strip, still live in temporary lodgings. There were under 10k Israelis on the Gaza Strip at the time - in comparison to the West Bank this was

kids play.

Once again, very easy to spread promises of generous funding by the USA and the EU. Not aware that there are concrete offers. May want to check what sums are involved before you volunteer national economies to such a venture. To put this in perspective, moans about the amount of USA aid to Israel would seem ridiculous compared to the probable price tag. Not "chickenfeed" by any standards, and not as if there a real return on the investment for donors.

EU membership? Where did that come from? Not aware that this is an option, or something discussed. There were talks on improved trade status etc, but not more than that. Palestine will not be up to EU standards (on more than one front) for years to come. Work, and shop in each others country? Within a few years? Not very much in touch with reality. And that silly little comment on immigration? May want to check the Palestinian stand on Jews/Israelis becoming citizens of Palestine, or for that matter - the possibility of other Arabs/Muslims getting the same.

We're getting to the crux of it here. Because large numbers of illegal settlers want to stay where they are, and because it's going to be expensive to move them, an entire aspiring nation that's been occupied has to put up with continued occupation, and the existence of any freedom fighters simply provide an excuse to "maintain defense".

And before anyone brings up the tired old disingenuous "1000's of rockets", stone-throwers in Gaza or the West Bank are freedom fighters.

I find it incredible and a sad indictment on the human condition that anybody with a clear conscience can defend Israel's position and ongoing occupation.

More nonsense posting. The costs of evicting the illegal settlers, and the overall costs required for any conceivable peace treaty to be carried through, are not the "crux" of the matter. They are just another element in this complicated situation. The continued occupation of the West Bank by Israel is not "because" of this. To take it a step further, even if by some magic, there would be no Israelis left on the West Bank tomorrow morning, handing it over to the Palestinian would still involve major issues. The illegal settlers and settlements are an added complication, which over the years took the front seat.

My notion of freedom fighting is more to do with actions taken against armed forces rather than preferring to targeting civilians. Addressed the defense as excuse in another post, the short version is that blanket statements without much to back them up are invalid. If one chooses to say Israel got no legitimate defense and security concerns that simply marks the poster as either uninformed or extremely biased.

Here you go - 1000's of rockets. They were not imaginary. So were suicide bombers. Terrorist attacks on civilians were and are a reality. Throwing stones (we're not talking pebbles here, and the location are usually picked to pose maximum danger) is not fighting for freedom. Applied to security forces vehicles, it is. Seem to recall there was quite the outrage on TVF when (on at least two separate occasions) throwing stones at cars became trendy in Thailand (Bangkok and Ayutthaya, if memory serves). Not quite the same circumstances, but it was not taken anywhere near as lightly as your post may suggest.

Not sure if the last line was addressed toward me - said on many occasions that I do not support Israel's occupation of the West Bank, and that I see them Israeli settlements there as illegal. This position does not automatically grant an angel-like status to the Palestinians or makes all of their claims righteous and true, nor does it make all of Israel's points invalid.

[Morch]

I'm sure in any peace deal Jews would still be allowed a safe haven within Israel from any discrimination they may suffer in other countries...

That is great that you are convinced, but since you are utterly hostile to Israel, I don't think that will convince anyone that they should follow your advice.

deleted post

The anti Semitic card is wearing a bit thin. Don't deflect and confuse any valid criticism of the state of Israel with anti Jewishness.

Please learn the differece between

Jew = a believer in Judaism or a person with a Jewish [grand]mother

Israeli = inhabitant of 67 borders Israel (80% Jews 20% Arab)

Zionist = fanatical believer that God gave Jews Palestine as the promised land...includes some Jews and rapture Christians.. as a result displacing millions of Palestinians who were already resident there.

It's Zionists only whom I dislike and despise. There is not a racist/religionist bone in my body.

PS I'd say the Zionists anti- Zionists run at about 50:50% on this forum, which makes sometimes for an interesting discussion.

Please have a clue before posting nonsense.

Israelis do not have to be inhabitants of Israel. Posting this on an expat forum is nothing short of ridiculous.

Them illegal settlers in the West Bank? Here's a secret - they are all Israeli citizens, even while living outside of the 1967 lines.

Your definition of Zionism was dealt with in many a previous post, it has nothing to do with reality. At best, it can be said to be a biased blanket statement which lumps all shades of Zionism and focuses on an extreme. Could you name a non-Arab pro-peace party in Israel which does not identify with Zionism? Zionism as a fanatical belief in God? Seriously? So, according to this there are no secular Zionists? No moderation? Differet

concepts? Just a monolithic ideology? Getting even weirder - "includes some Jews"(?). Eh? Wouldn't your own twisted definition entail that most Zionists are Jews?

As usual, things are more complicated less clear cut and do not easily lend themselves to one liner definitions.

Most Israeli Jews, is asked, would intuitively define themselves as Zionists. If pressed to elaborate on what Zionism means for them, answers would vary. The religious zealotry described in your post certainly applies to some (especially true in relation to them illegal settlers), but far from being a general characteristic.

[Morch]

Thank you, Morch, for your well considered practical implementation of a solution to the conflict. I actually agree with you on many of your points: I can understand the demilitarization and Israel's current concerns about border control.

Sky rocketing real estate prices...would that I had that problem with my property! But that's nothing that a government couldn't solve with a balance between subsidies for first home owner occupier buyers, settlers restarting their lives within Israel itself, and punitive land taxes for outright speculators and abusers of the grants...all subsidized by generous EU, US, and global funding...chickenfeed for the world community compared with benefits reaped..

A few years down the track I could well see Israel and Palestine being invited to join the EU. They could all then live, work and worship in each others' countries anyway. Wouldn't it be ironic if Palestine were accepted but Israel refused because of its reluctance to allow non Jews to migrate there.

Anyway, that's probably decades away. I hope I live to see them all living in peace.

Meanwhile perhaps more courageous politicians will emerge to make the painful compromises.

Everything is so easy in dextermworld...

Real estate issues been plaguing Israeli economy (and society) for well over a decade now. Most of it got to do with high level of demand, and ongoing failures on part of governments. Your confidence in Israeli politicians' ability to tackle these issues is quite in contrast with public opinion in Israel - in fact, this is one of the main economic issues in the upcoming elections (as it was in the previous ones and so on....). Just to make things a bit more tangible, many of the Israelis moved during the unilateral pullout from the Gaza Strip, still live

in temporary lodgings. There were under 10k Israelis on the Gaza Strip at the time - in comparison to the West Bank this was kids play.

Once again, very easy to spread promises of generous funding by the USA and the EU. Not aware that there are concrete offers. May want to check what sums are involved before you volunteer national economies to such a venture. To put this in perspective, moans about the amount of USA aid to Israel would seem ridiculous compared to the probable price tag. Not "chickenfeed" by any standards, and not as if there a real return on the investment for donors.

EU membership? Where did that come from? Not aware that this is an option, or something discussed. There were talks on improved trade status etc, but not more than that. Palestine will not be up to EU standards (on more than one front) for years to come. Work, and shop in each others country? Within a few years? Not very much in touch with reality. And that silly little comment on immigration? May want to check the Palestinian stand on Jews/Israelis becoming citizens of Palestine, or for that matter - the possibility of other Arabs/Muslims getting the same.

I am finding you recent posts quite interesting, and much easier to read when you drop text wrap and format correctly...that's meant as a sincere comment, not a point scorer.

Along with your dose of reality which you take every morning, which I appreciate...either you live in Israel or are very close to events there...try popping an optimism pill too occasionally.

I still regard your "economic upheaval" as chickenfeed for the international community....and I'd be amazed if foreign politicians, especially those MEPs who recently voted for Palestinian statehood, balked at putting their hands in their pockets for peace, and instead said "Nope, we prefer war."

It would lessen tension in the entire Middle East and lead to increased trade and tourism. Reconstruction and infrastructure contracts a shot in the arm for overseas and domestic contractors. A easing on the global terror barometer too.

Germany successfully reunified, and Czechoslovakia successfully separated.

The EU begins 90 miles off the coast of Israel. It's only 25 years since the Berlin Wall fell and the EU has absorbed, albeit with some indigestion, basket cases such as Bulgaria and Romania, and now possibly Moldova and Georgia. Israel would fit far more neatly into the EU if it got its human rights house in order.

I am fearful that, as you suggest, the right wing Zionists will increase their hold on government. If that happens I too will be popping a pessimism pill, because that will only lead Israel into an economic cul-de-sac, further political isolation, probably more war, and almost certainly a one state solution where Israel will eventually lose its Jewish character.

Seems like you are mixing two issues with regard to economic effects - foreign powers picking up the tab and short/medium term effects of a peace agreement.

Foreign powers are generally generous verbally, apart from a few outstanding nations (USA, Japan, Germany) most are not that forthcoming when push comes to shove. Especially true with regard to the Palestinian end of things, one need only to run a quick search of how promises of funding Gaza's rehabilitation came out. With the EU having to bail a few of its own troubled economies, it is doubtful that added economic burden will be welcome. Who else then? Russia? China? Yeah.... thought so.

To get this straight - you will be amazed by politicians voting for something and then not coming through when results need to be translated into deeds? Comedy hour is on. Things usually aren't as simplistic as "Nope, we prefer war". Sure that most would prefer peace. It is the level of commitment and willingness to actually be involved rather than release statements that is questioned.

Fruits of an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement will take years to manifest, and do not, on the whole, pose a major prize as far as EU economy is concerned. Israel is already trading with the EU, not sure how much more room for growth there is, and Palestine will have little to offer. There will be some infrastructure contracts to win, but not as many and not as lucrative as some think. The main beneficiaries, long term, would be Israel and Palestine, not the EU.

Easing of tensions is the Middle East? Would IS cease and desist? Would Hezbollah lay down its arms? Things will settle down in Syria? The Iran deadlock will be solved? Last, but not least will Hamas play along?

The Palestinian issue is just one of many troubling the Middle East, not the main driving force of all regional conflicts.

Re Germany reunited - differences in culture, language and religion were no where near realities between Israelis and Palestinians. The amount of bad blood was negligible in comparison. That's without getting into Germany's economy being much more robust than either Israel's or Palestine's. Also, the unification was not always as smooth (especially in economic realities) as some imagine. Some of our German posters could expand on that point.

Nearest EU country to Israel is Cyprus, which is hardly the EU itself, but rather a weakling member of. It is also 150 miles away and not 90 - small detail, perhaps, but guess that's my tendency to keep things real. Again, not aware that an offer of potential future EU membership was ever a credible suggestion made. This is even a step further than donating the EU treasuries to bankroll a peace agreement.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Scott

[7by7]

Israel is already more tied to Europe than Asia; at least culturally. Being a member of, for example, Eurovision and UEFA.

Israel and the EU, from the EU itself:

The EU and Israel committed themselves to establishing a partnership which provides for close political and mutually beneficial trade and investment relations together with economic, social, financial, civil scientific, technological and cultural cooperation.

Although I doubt that actual Israeli membership will come about until the Palestinian issue is finally resolved

The EU believes that the creation of an independent, viable and democratic Palestinian state is in Israel’s interest.

[7by7]

Morch? JT? UG? It would really help the discussion to put down what you think the plan should be.

That is up to the Israelis, not to me. It depends on too many variables and the situation changes all the time.

Of course no one here is ever going to have any influence on the actual events.

But go on, give us your ideas of what you think Israel should do to work towards a peaceful solution.

Their current policy is obviously not working.

Not hinting at anything, but wouldn't know that no one here is ever going to have any influence on actual events. Google Eve online and Benghazi for an example.

Having posted something following these suggestions, may I ask why do the esteemed members seem to think that a peace offer/proposal ought to be presented by Israel? Was there a reasonable Palestinian counter proposal made? Are Palestinians bursting with constructive ideas? Raring to have a realistic go at negotiations?

How about expanding on what Palestinians should do to work toward a peaceful solution?

Is the current Palestinian policy (whatever that means) working any better?

It seems that the Palestinians are far more willing to negotiate than the Israelis; you only have to read the OP of this topic to discover that!

You will see that the basis of the Jordanian proposal is a two state solution and it urges both the Israelis and the Palestinians "to abstain from any unilateral and illegal actions, including settlement activities, that could undermine the viability of a two-state solution"

The Palestinians say that they are willing to work with the UN on this; yet both Israel and the US have dismissed the proposals as a gimmick!

It seems that Israel, supported by the US, are not willing to negotiate on anything.

[Ulysses G.]

Please have a clue before posting nonsense.

More nonsense posting.

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who is fed up with the constant dishonest posts by certain members. It just took Morch a little longer.

[Seastallion]

Please have a clue before posting nonsense.

More nonsense posting.

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who is fed up with the constant dishonest posts by certain members. It just took Morch a little longer.

No, I think that Morch is just becoming frustrated that even his (usually) level-headed arguments are not holding as much water any more. The posters of the real nonsense got frustrated sooner.

[Ulysses G.]

Take a Valium. It will calm you down.

[dexterm]

Thank you, Morch, for your well considered practical implementation of a solution to the conflict. I actually agree with you on many of your points: I can understand the demilitarization and Israel's current concerns about border control.

Sky rocketing real estate prices...would that I had that problem with my property! But that's nothing that a government couldn't solve with a balance between subsidies for first home owner occupier buyers, settlers restarting their lives within Israel itself, and punitive land taxes for outright speculators and abusers of the grants...all subsidized by generous EU, US, and global funding...chickenfeed for the world community compared with benefits reaped..

A few years down the track I could well see Israel and Palestine being invited to join the EU. They could all then live, work and worship in each others' countries anyway. Wouldn't it be ironic if Palestine were accepted but Israel refused because of its reluctance to allow non Jews to migrate there.

Anyway, that's probably decades away. I hope I live to see them all living in peace.

Meanwhile perhaps more courageous politicians will emerge to make the painful compromises.

Everything is so easy in dextermworld...

Real estate issues been plaguing Israeli economy (and society) for well over a decade now. Most of it got to do with high level of demand, and ongoing failures on part of governments. Your confidence in Israeli politicians' ability to tackle these issues is quite in contrast with public opinion in Israel - in fact, this is one of the main economic issues in the upcoming elections (as it was in the previous ones and so on....). Just to make things a bit more tangible, many of the Israelis moved during the unilateral pullout from the Gaza Strip, still live

in temporary lodgings. There were under 10k Israelis on the Gaza Strip at the time - in comparison to the West Bank this was kids play.

Once again, very easy to spread promises of generous funding by the USA and the EU. Not aware that there are concrete offers. May want to check what sums are involved before you volunteer national economies to such a venture. To put this in perspective, moans about the amount of USA aid to Israel would seem ridiculous compared to the probable price tag. Not "chickenfeed" by any standards, and not as if there a real return on the investment for donors.

EU membership? Where did that come from? Not aware that this is an option, or something discussed. There were talks on improved trade status etc, but not more than that. Palestine will not be up to EU standards (on more than one front) for years to come. Work, and shop in each others country? Within a few years? Not very much in touch with reality. And that silly little comment on immigration? May want to check the Palestinian stand on Jews/Israelis becoming citizens of Palestine, or for that matter - the possibility of other Arabs/Muslims getting the same.

I am finding you recent posts quite interesting, and much easier to read when you drop text wrap and format correctly...that's meant as a sincere comment, not a point scorer.

Along with your dose of reality which you take every morning, which I appreciate...either you live in Israel or are very close to events there...try popping an optimism pill too occasionally.

I still regard your "economic upheaval" as chickenfeed for the international community....and I'd be amazed if foreign politicians, especially those MEPs who recently voted for Palestinian statehood, balked at putting their hands in their pockets for peace, and instead said "Nope, we prefer war."

It would lessen tension in the entire Middle East and lead to increased trade and tourism. Reconstruction and infrastructure contracts a shot in the arm for overseas and domestic contractors. A easing on the global terror barometer too.

Germany successfully reunified, and Czechoslovakia successfully separated.

The EU begins 90 miles off the coast of Israel. It's only 25 years since the Berlin Wall fell and the EU has absorbed, albeit with some indigestion, basket cases such as Bulgaria and Romania, and now possibly Moldova and Georgia. Israel would fit far more neatly into the EU if it got its human rights house in order.

I am fearful that, as you suggest, the right wing Zionists will increase their hold on government. If that happens I too will be popping a pessimism pill, because that will only lead Israel into an economic cul-de-sac, further political isolation, probably more war, and almost certainly a one state solution where Israel will eventually lose its Jewish character.

Seems like you are mixing two issues with regard to economic effects - foreign powers picking up the tab and short/medium term effects of a peace agreement.

Foreign powers are generally generous verbally, apart from a few outstanding nations (USA, Japan, Germany) most are not that forthcoming when push comes to shove. Especially true with regard to the Palestinian end of things, one need only to run a quick search of how promises of funding Gaza's rehabilitation came out. With the EU having to bail a few of its own troubled economies, it is doubtful that added economic burden will be welcome. Who else then? Russia? China? Yeah.... thought so.

To get this straight - you will be amazed by politicians voting for something and then not coming through when results need to be translated into deeds? Comedy hour is on. Things usually aren't as simplistic as "Nope, we prefer war". Sure that most would prefer peace. It is the level of commitment and willingness to actually be involved rather than release statements that is questioned.

Fruits of an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement will take years to manifest, and do not, on the whole, pose a major prize as far as EU economy is concerned. Israel is already trading with the EU, not sure how much more room for growth there is, and Palestine will have little to offer. There will be some infrastructure contracts to win, but not as many and not as lucrative as some think. The main beneficiaries, long term, would be Israel and Palestine, not the EU.

Easing of tensions is the Middle East? Would IS cease and desist? Would Hezbollah lay down its arms? Things will settle down in Syria? The Iran deadlock will be solved? Last, but not least will Hamas play along?

The Palestinian issue is just one of many troubling the Middle East, not the main driving force of all regional conflicts.

Re Germany reunited - differences in culture, language and religion were no where near realities between Israelis and Palestinians. The amount of bad blood was negligible in comparison. That's without getting into Germany's economy being much more robust than either Israel's or Palestine's. Also, the unification was not always as smooth (especially in economic realities) as some imagine. Some of our German posters could expand on that point.

Nearest EU country to Israel is Cyprus, which is hardly the EU itself, but rather a weakling member of. It is also 150 miles away and not 90 - small detail, perhaps, but guess that's my tendency to keep things real. Again, not aware that an offer of potential future EU membership was ever a credible suggestion made. This is even a step further than donating the EU treasuries to bankroll a peace agreement.

Well, I am afraid I must disagree with almost everything you said in your response... I find you far too narrow minded for a supposedly thinking person. Think outside the envelope; have some vision.

The only thing I stand corrected on is the EU member Cyprus is 150 miles off the coast of Israel not 90 miles...I was out by 60 miles. In a trading group that stretches 2,500 miles across Europe my math error is not overly important.

>>The main beneficiaries, long term, would be Israel and Palestine, not the EU.

..of course they would be. Do you think the EU considered the non existent economic bonanza it would reap by admitting Ireland, Portugal, Bulgaria, Romania and in future maybe Moldova and Georgia. There are other considerations than pure economic gain to EU.

Of course a peace agreement in the Middle East would ease tensions. It's nonsense to say it wouldn't. The Arab Israeli conflict is a casus belli for many extremist groups. With that gone the wind is obviously taken out of their sails.

>>Re Germany reunited - differences in culture, language and religion were no where near realities between Israelis and Palestinians.

...you got completely the wrong end of the stick here. Germany reunification was an example of Zionist colonists in the West Bank reuniting with 67 borders Israel.

Czechoslovakia was an example of a country splitting up i.e end of Israeli occupation...Israel returning roughly to 67 borders and Palestinians to what is left of their Mandated area.

Edited December 21, 2014 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

Well, I am afraid I must disagree with almost everything you said in your response... I find you far too narrow minded for a supposedly thinking person. Think outside the envelope; have some vision.

In other words, just make stuff up, that has no bearing on reality.

[dexterm]

That is great that you are convinced, but since you are utterly hostile to Israel, I don't think that will convince anyone that they should follow your advice.

deleted post

The anti Semitic card is wearing a bit thin. Don't deflect and confuse any valid criticism of the state of Israel with anti Jewishness.

Please learn the differece between

Jew = a believer in Judaism or a person with a Jewish [grand]mother

Israeli = inhabitant of 67 borders Israel (80% Jews 20% Arab)

Zionist = fanatical believer that God gave Jews Palestine as the promised land...includes some Jews and rapture Christians.. as a result displacing millions of Palestinians who were already resident there.

It's Zionists only whom I dislike and despise. There is not a racist/religionist bone in my body.

PS I'd say the Zionists anti- Zionists run at about 50:50% on this forum, which makes sometimes for an interesting discussion.

Please have a clue before posting nonsense.

Israelis do not have to be inhabitants of Israel. Posting this on an expat forum is nothing short of ridiculous.

Them illegal settlers in the West Bank? Here's a secret - they are all Israeli citizens, even while living outside of the 1967 lines.

Your definition of Zionism was dealt with in many a previous post, it has nothing to do with reality. At best, it can be said to be a biased blanket statement which lumps all shades of Zionism and focuses on an extreme. Could you name a non-Arab pro-peace party in Israel which does not identify with Zionism? Zionism as a fanatical belief in God? Seriously? So, according to this there are no secular Zionists? No moderation? Differet

concepts? Just a monolithic ideology? Getting even weirder - "includes some Jews"(?). Eh? Wouldn't your own twisted definition entail that most Zionists are Jews?

As usual, things are more complicated less clear cut and do not easily lend themselves to one liner definitions.

Most Israeli Jews, is asked, would intuitively define themselves as Zionists. If pressed to elaborate on what Zionism means for them, answers would vary. The religious zealotry described in your post certainly applies to some (especially true in relation to them illegal settlers), but far from being a general characteristic.

Please have a clue yourself about doing the math...80% Israelis clearly includes the colonists in the West Bank.They are included in a census of Israel proper not the illegal colonies in the West Bank. Would that they would return to 67 Israel for the next census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

You misinterpret the word "some" Jews in my definition of Zionists. I was using it in its premier definition

"Some" = an unspecified amount; more than one...

Early Zionists and many today claim thet they are returning to and occupying Biblical Israel. Their descendants may not believe in God, but that is the basis of their claim to the land.

What is your definition of Zionist? What possible right do they have to land where other people were already living other than their biblical claim?

[Scott]

Off-topic, bickering posts removed. Please stay on topic.

[Morch]

Of course no one here is ever going to have any influence on the actual events.

But go on, give us your ideas of what you think Israel should do to work towards a peaceful solution.

Their current policy is obviously not working.

Not hinting at anything, but wouldn't know that no one here is ever going to have any influence on actual events. Google Eve online and Benghazi for an example.

Having posted something following these suggestions, may I ask why do the esteemed members seem to think that a peace offer/proposal ought to be presented by Israel? Was there a reasonable Palestinian counter proposal made? Are Palestinians bursting with constructive ideas? Raring to have a realistic go at negotiations?

How about expanding on what Palestinians should do to work toward a peaceful solution?

Is the current Palestinian policy (whatever that means) working any better?

It seems that the Palestinians are far more willing to negotiate than the Israelis; you only have to read the OP of this topic to discover that!

You will see that the basis of the Jordanian proposal is a two state solution and it urges both the Israelis and the Palestinians "to abstain from any unilateral and illegal actions, including settlement activities, that could undermine the viability of a two-state solution"

The Palestinians say that they are willing to work with the UN on this; yet both Israel and the US have dismissed the proposals as a gimmick!

It seems that Israel, supported by the US, are not willing to negotiate on anything.

The Palestinian proposal, presented by Jordan, was made by Abbas. Does it represent the opinions and wishes of all the Palestinians (or, this being an imperfect world, the majority)? Does he command enough popular support to carry any of it through?

The PA is currently controlled by the Fatah, even though Hamas won the last general elections. The so-called Palestinian Unity Government so far failed to execute its primary role and set up conditions for a new general elections, and relations between the two factions are getting worse. Additionally, the Fatah's inheritance wars are on the horizon (Abbas is 79, and somewhat ambiguous on how long he intends to stay in office), with they sort of primaries coming up. May want to check what some of the next generation Fatah leaders say about Israel and the prospects of peace (the easiest to find in English would probably be Jibril Rajoub and Mohammed Dahlan, and even then, some difference between foreign and local press). Could be dismissed as pre-elections talk, but then, if it is - it would mean that hardline views garner support. So apart from Hamas, it cannot be said that all of the Palestinian public, or even all of the Fatah are quite on the same page.

There is indeed an some political analysts interpreting Abbas's proposal move as having less to do with Israel and actually hoping to end the conflict, but rather as an elaborate attempt at political maneuvering and survival. It would not be unusual in the context of Israeli-Palestinian relationship - leaders and politicians of both sides are often more focused on the home court.

A Good example of that would be Lieberman (Israel's foreign minister, quoted in the article). Heading one of the right wing parties, his views are as expected, not favorable. Since new elections were declared, he tried to go for a more reasonable sounding position. Recent polls show his party losing votes to other right wing parties - and he's back with the same old.

Calling both both the Israelis and the Palestinians "to abstain from any unilateral and illegal actions, including settlement activities, that could undermine the viability of a two-state solution" is good. Wondering if rocket fire and terrorist attacks are seen as unilateral and illegal as well, though. The proposal seems to elaborate on certain issues, not on others.

The Palestinians are willing to work with the UN because they asses that they have better chances of applying leverage on Israel under these conditions. In the same way Israel is obviously reluctant to play under such conditions. Note that the Palestinians are in no hurry to push for a vote, mainly because favorable changes in UNSC membership coming up on 2015.

Hoped for more than a re-telling of the OP.

[Morch]

Please have a clue before posting nonsense.

More nonsense posting.

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who is fed up with the constant dishonest posts by certain members. It just took Morch a little longer.

No, I think that Morch is just becoming frustrated that even his (usually) level-headed arguments are not holding as much water any more. The posters of the real nonsense got frustrated sooner.

But as you can't be bothered to actually demonstrate how my arguments (many of which are merely facts, by the way) "are not holding as much water any more" - this argument itself is not very compelling.

[Morch]

The anti Semitic card is wearing a bit thin. Don't deflect and confuse any valid criticism of the state of Israel with anti Jewishness.

Please learn the differece between

Jew = a believer in Judaism or a person with a Jewish [grand]mother

Israeli = inhabitant of 67 borders Israel (80% Jews 20% Arab)

Zionist = fanatical believer that God gave Jews Palestine as the promised land...includes some Jews and rapture Christians.. as a result displacing millions of Palestinians who were already resident there.

It's Zionists only whom I dislike and despise. There is not a racist/religionist bone in my body.

PS I'd say the Zionists anti- Zionists run at about 50:50% on this forum, which makes sometimes for an interesting discussion.

Please have a clue before posting nonsense.

Israelis do not have to be inhabitants of Israel. Posting this on an expat forum is nothing short of ridiculous.

Them illegal settlers in the West Bank? Here's a secret - they are all Israeli citizens, even while living outside of the 1967 lines.

Your definition of Zionism was dealt with in many a previous post, it has nothing to do with reality. At best, it can be said to be a biased blanket statement which lumps all shades of Zionism and focuses on an extreme. Could you name a non-Arab pro-peace party in Israel which does not identify with Zionism? Zionism as a fanatical belief in God? Seriously? So, according to this there are no secular Zionists? No moderation? Differet

concepts? Just a monolithic ideology? Getting even weirder - "includes some Jews"(?). Eh? Wouldn't your own twisted definition entail that most Zionists are Jews?

As usual, things are more complicated less clear cut and do not easily lend themselves to one liner definitions.

Most Israeli Jews, is asked, would intuitively define themselves as Zionists. If pressed to elaborate on what Zionism means for them, answers would vary. The religious zealotry described in your post certainly applies to some (especially true in relation to them illegal settlers), but far from being a general characteristic.

Please have a clue yourself about doing the math...80% Israelis clearly includes the colonists in the West Bank.They are included in a census of Israel proper not the illegal colonies in the West Bank. Would that they would return to 67 Israel for the next census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

You misinterpret the word "some" Jews in my definition of Zionists. I was using it in its premier definition

"Some" = an unspecified amount; more than one...

Early Zionists and many today claim thet they are returning to and occupying Biblical Israel. Their descendants may not believe in God, but that is the basis of their claim to the land.

What is your definition of Zionist? What possible right do they have to land where other people were already living other than their biblical claim?

If, as you claim "Israeli = inhabitant of 67 borders Israel", and the illegal settlers are definitely not inhabiting "(19)67 borders Israel" - what does it make them, then, according to your own definition?

I do not misinterpret anything, other way around. You are trying to somehow insinuate that there is not that much overlap between Jews and Zionists. Not quite the same thing, true, but more often than not, there's a connection.

Early Zionists were actually going against the grain of traditional Jewish thought at the time. The basis for the movement was rather more nationalistic (which would historically fit their time), than religious. The founders of Israel were, on the whole, not a devout lot. If anything, what is happening since 1967 can be seen as Zionism being hijacked by religious right wing oriented groups.

My views on Zionism are irrelevant, as this topic is not about Zionism. You are welcome to re-visit our previous discussions and ignore once again posts detailing my position. Suffice to say that like most related issues, it is not something which can be defined in one liner propositions. You could start by thinking about some of the points brought up and see how these fit in with your view.

[dexterm]

The anti Semitic card is wearing a bit thin. Don't deflect and confuse any valid criticism of the state of Israel with anti Jewishness.

Please learn the differece between

Jew = a believer in Judaism or a person with a Jewish [grand]mother

Israeli = inhabitant of 67 borders Israel (80% Jews 20% Arab)

Zionist = fanatical believer that God gave Jews Palestine as the promised land...includes some Jews and rapture Christians.. as a result displacing millions of Palestinians who were already resident there.

It's Zionists only whom I dislike and despise. There is not a racist/religionist bone in my body.

PS I'd say the Zionists anti- Zionists run at about 50:50% on this forum, which makes sometimes for an interesting discussion.

Please have a clue before posting nonsense.

Israelis do not have to be inhabitants of Israel. Posting this on an expat forum is nothing short of ridiculous.

Them illegal settlers in the West Bank? Here's a secret - they are all Israeli citizens, even while living outside of the 1967 lines.

Your definition of Zionism was dealt with in many a previous post, it has nothing to do with reality. At best, it can be said to be a biased blanket statement which lumps all shades of Zionism and focuses on an extreme. Could you name a non-Arab pro-peace party in Israel which does not identify with Zionism? Zionism as a fanatical belief in God? Seriously? So, according to this there are no secular Zionists? No moderation? Differet

concepts? Just a monolithic ideology? Getting even weirder - "includes some Jews"(?). Eh? Wouldn't your own twisted definition entail that most Zionists are Jews?

As usual, things are more complicated less clear cut and do not easily lend themselves to one liner definitions.

Most Israeli Jews, is asked, would intuitively define themselves as Zionists. If pressed to elaborate on what Zionism means for them, answers would vary. The religious zealotry described in your post certainly applies to some (especially true in relation to them illegal settlers), but far from being a general characteristic.

Please have a clue yourself about doing the math...80% Israelis clearly includes the colonists in the West Bank.They are included in a census of Israel proper not the illegal colonies in the West Bank. Would that they would return to 67 Israel for the next census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

You misinterpret the word "some" Jews in my definition of Zionists. I was using it in its premier definition

"Some" = an unspecified amount; more than one...

Early Zionists and many today claim thet they are returning to and occupying Biblical Israel. Their descendants may not believe in God, but that is the basis of their claim to the land.

What is your definition of Zionist? What possible right do they have to land where other people were already living other than their biblical claim?

If, as you claim "Israeli = inhabitant of 67 borders Israel", and the illegal settlers are definitely not inhabiting "(19)67 borders

Israel" - what does it make them, then, according to your own definition?

I do not misinterpret anything, other way around. You are trying to somehow insinuate that there is not that much overlap

between Jews and Zionists. Not quite the same thing, true, but more often than not, there's a connection.

Early Zionists were actually going against the grain of traditional Jewish thought at the time. The basis for the movement

was rather more nationalistic (which would historically fit their time), than religious. The founders of Israel were, on the

whole, not a devout lot. If anything, what is happening since 1967 can be seen as Zionism being hijacked by religious right

wing oriented groups.

My views on Zionism are irrelevant, as this topic is not about Zionism. You are welcome to re-visit our previous discussions

and ignore once again posts detailing my position. Suffice to say that like most related issues, it is not something which can

be defined in one liner propositions. You could start by thinking about some of the points brought up and see how these fit in

with your view.

If you had bothered to read the link and do the math, you would have seen "[the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics] defines the population of Israel to also include Israeli settlers living in the West Bank."

That figure is 80% of the Israeli population exactly as I said in the first place.

That Zionism was ever a non religious movement is utter BS. Countless times on this forum we have been told that Zionists have a Biblical connection with the land of Palestine.

The fact the you cannot or will not even define Zionism or how Zionists can possibly other than via religion have a claim on the land speaks volumes.

[spidermike007]

Netanyahu is about to be voted out due to his unpopular policies and hatemongering tactics. Things will hopefully change, and reasonable minds will prevail in Israel. At least, if there is any hope for lasting peace.

[Jingthing]

Netanyahu is about to be voted out due to his unpopular policies and hatemongering tactics. Things will hopefully change, and reasonable minds will prevail in Israel. At least, if there is any hope for lasting peace.

That's rather a gross oversimplification but it is true that this current Israeli election is a very important one.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[spidermike007]

Netanyahu is about to be voted out due to his unpopular policies and hatemongering tactics. Things will hopefully change, and reasonable minds will prevail in Israel. At least, if there is any hope for lasting peace.

That's rather a gross oversimplification but it is true that this current Israeli election is a very important one.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I love to grossly oversimplify stuff. Kind of like Bibi, who is a bloated fool, who has run his course. Most are hoping the extreme right are losing their power so level headed minds prevail.

[Jingthing]

I would love to see change on both sides.

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[Lissos]

That Zionism was ever a non religious movement is utter BS.

Morch didn't claim that. If you read his post properly, he pointed out that the basis for the movement was rather more nationalistic than religious - and that is true. Early thinkers also generally sought to put various restricing ways of the diaspora behind them. It was precisely 'this' kind of Jew which so many who had been used to Jews being their doormat for centuries, couldn't abide and still can't abide it seems. It may have had its underpinning romantic mythos, but then so do most nationalist movements have some kind of attractive story to gain support / funding, Palestinian-ism included.

[dexterm]

That Zionism was ever a non religious movement is utter BS.

Morch didn't claim that. If you read his post properly, he pointed out that the basis for the movement was rather more nationalistic than religious - and that is true. Early thinkers also generally sought to put various restricing ways of the diaspora behind them. It was precisely 'this' kind of Jew which so many who had been used to Jews being their doormat for centuries, couldn't abide and still can't abide it seems. It may have had its underpinning romantic mythos, but then so do most nationalist movements have some kind of attractive story to gain support / funding, Palestinian-ism included.

If the early Zionists were supposedly simply nationalistic and not religiously motivated, why did they choose Palestine for their Zion? Wasn't this the land that God had promised them? Why not the other places that had been mooted?

[Ulysses G.]

If the early Zionists were supposedly simply nationalistic and not religiously motivated, why did they choose Palestine for their Zion?

Because there was lots of Jewish history and Jews living there for thousands of years. There was also lots of land with no one on it.

[Boon Mee]

If the early Zionists were supposedly simply nationalistic and not religiously motivated, why did they choose Palestine for their Zion?

Because there was lots of Jewish history and Jews living there for thousands of years. There was also lots of land with no one on it.

And the desert that was mostly Palestine before Israel and Golda Meyer - a nice Jewish grandmother from Chicago btw has now turned into a garden of democracy amongst savages that surround it.

[dexterm]

If the early Zionists were supposedly simply nationalistic and not religiously motivated, why did they choose Palestine for their Zion?

Because there was lots of Jewish history and Jews living there for thousands of years. There was also lots of land with no one on it.

This time UG has busted his own myth.

According to UG himself the Jewish population of Palestine in 1890 was 6% and 94% Palestinian. So much for your "lots of land with no-one on it" nonsense.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=8747389

Followers of Judaism are just one of many peoples who have lived in Palestine over the millenia.

"The region has been controlled by numerous peoples, including Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Sunni Arab Caliphates, the Shia Fatimid Caliphate, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Mongols, Ottomans, the British and modern Israelis and Palestinians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

The Jewish lease lapsed 2,000 years ago when they abandoned Palestine.

Edited December 22, 2014 by dexterm