Israelis In Chiang Mai

[Ulysses G.]

This thread is NOT about Judaism, being Jewish, or Nationality.

This thread is NOT about Israel being a Jewish State.

This thread is NOT about the persecution of any group of people.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

It is about repeating false stereotypes and justifications for hatred over and over again and winking and agreeing with each other until most of us believe them and they become "facts".

Never again.

[Gonzo the Face]

This thread is NOT about Judaism, being Jewish, or Nationality.

This thread is NOT about Israel being a Jewish State.

This thread is NOT about the persecution of any group of people.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

It is about repeating false stereotypes and justifications for hatred over and over again and winking and agreeing with each other until most of us believe them and they become "facts".

Never again.

Sorry also, but beg to differ with you. That is what a group of posters would like it to be and are trying to bend it into such.

But you are entitled to see things how so ever you choose.

[Ulysses G.]

I have the opinion that the dogmatic type approach taken by some of the posters in this thread just goes to clash with the Thai make up and demeanor. I also feel that this type of attitude is what is best described by the guest house owner by the single word "Israeli", in his sign

Finally the truth.

You don't think any of the posters on this thread are "Israelis". You are talking about Jews.

Why don't you can all the bullsh*t?

[lannarebirth]

I have the opinion that the dogmatic type approach taken by some of the posters in this thread just goes to clash with the Thai make up and demeanor. I also feel that this type of attitude is what is best described by the guest house owner by the single word "Israeli", in his sign

Finally the truth.

You don't think any of the posters on this thread are "Israelis". You are talking about Jews.

Why don't you can all the bullsh*t?

At the risk of being labeled a racist, I have a question. If the guest house operators were really trying to exclude Jews, why wouldn't their sign say "No Jews"? There are about 14million Jewish people in the world, of which only about 5 million are in Israel. Why would it be acceptable to them to provide lodging for the 63% of Jewish people from other nations, but not acceptable for the minority 37% of Jews from Israel?

[toptuan]

I even hate to post this because God knows there's enough anti-semitism in this world, past and present.

However, I've traveled to Israel twice to enjoy the archeological and historical sites. On both trips, I have never been able to have a friendly, civil conversation with a single Jewish-Israeli. Usually it was quite the other way around--some kind of hostile confrontation (at the airport, in a taxi, at a museum), and I consider myself a pretty laid-back (mai bpen rai) guy, and seasoned traveler (over 30 countries, and loved 'em all with great experiences of cross-cultural contacts).

On my last trip, my last kick in the A$$ was on the plane leaving Ben Gurion airport for London. I was trying out my Hebrew language with the air hostess (not flirting), and an older Jewish-Israeli female passenger interrupted our conversation and verbally jumped on me for murdering the Hebrew language (OK, so I had a slight USA midwestern accent!) She loudly denounced me to passengers as a "wannabe" Hebrew who should keep my mouth shut. Wow, never had a reaction in my life like that from trying out someone's native tongue--no matter how badly I slaughtered it.

It was really one of the most miserable, embarrassing experiences of my life. "Arrogant" seemed to be the overall impression I came away with.

Who did I end up having the best times and conversations with? Arab-Israelis and Palestinian-Israelis. They were open, gregarious, generous, hospitable and eager to converse. I had many invitations to come to their homes--from complete strangers (common practice in Arab culture).

I don't know, and can't put my finger on it, but if the Israelis whom I met in their home country traveled abroad, I can see the raison d'etre for these ugly signs to which you refer. Poor ambassadors to the world in their home country, and probably poor ambassadors abroad.

I've determined that if I ever go back to Israel (after the dust settles from the current spat), I'm staying in Arab-Israeli, Bedouin-Israeli or Palestinian-Israeli hotels, eating in their restaurants, and hiring their guides. No more crap for me.

I conclude by stating that I think anti-semitism is one of the worst blights on human history and relationships. However, I pity some of the Israelis who may bring some of this reaction down on their own heads. It still doesn't justify the "reaction." I'm not anti-Jewish nor anti-Israeli--I'm simply sharing factual personal observation and experience.

Maybe someone shed can even more light on this enigma--why the recently-persecuted often end up the persecutors. There is a similar thread in history regarding the early Puritans who fled English persecution and went to the Americas. These same recently-persecuted people banished some early Baptists from their midst (Roger Williams and his Baptist congregation had to flee to Rhode Island colony in 1635) in some of the harshest conditions of religious persecution ever seen on the American continent. Even more recent examples are some of the formerly downtrodden muslim sects of Iraq who are now waging a vicious war of retribution against their own Iraqi fellow citizens of different sects.

Strange characteristic of the human condition.

Edited August 13, 2006 by toptuan

[Rasseru]

I have the opinion that the dogmatic type approach taken by some of the posters in this thread just goes to clash with the Thai make up and demeanor. I also feel that this type of attitude is what is best described by the guest house owner by the single word "Israeli", in his sign

Finally the truth.

You don't think any of the posters on this thread are "Israelis". You are talking about Jews.

Why don't you can all the bullsh*t?

Hello?

[svenivan]

I have very good friends that have visited me here two times. The wife that is from England is also Jewish and very proud of that. (Being Jewish, not being from England!) .

I talked to her about that Israelis were not very welcomed here in Thailand in some places and she said she could understand that. She has been to Israel a couple of times and she thought herself that many Israelis were very rude and unfriendly.

But according to Ulysses and Thaiquila she is probably anti-semistist.

[Charma]

People never cease to amaze me.

This thread IS about a Guest House Operator.

This thread IS about how a Guest House Operator runs his business

This thread IS about a sign.

This thread is NOT about Judaism, being Jewish, or Nationality.

This thread is NOT about Israel being a Jewish State.

This thread is NOT about the persecution of any group of people.

There are posters out there who are trying to make it a group persecution thread.

Because that is the connection that comes to their mind once certain trigger words are used.

Again... This thread IS about a sign, and more specifically one word on the sign.

The word is "ISRAELI"

Could you please tell me how these statements in bold add up?

I guess as one of the percieved "vehement" posters here I just want to clarify my position (again). It does really matter whether the discrimination is aimed at jews, or at a nationality. The effect is to discriminate based on a stereotype of a whole nation. IMO it does not matter what understanding the person placing the sign has of the ethinic or religious make up a country is or it's historical context. Prejudice is borne out of ignorance. I am sure that GH owners have had negative experiences of many nationalities and it may even be the case that they have had more than a few of them from Israelies, but IMO that is still no justification.

I knew it would not take long for the "if you don't like it go back to....." comment to arrive. It is always the fall back position nof someone who cannot put together a reasoned argument. Well of course it is up to the Thais to decide on what laws they want. I can live with many things in life that I may not like. However, if something strikes at a core value I hold, I will speak out as others have done here. If I arrived at a GH I was due to stay at and found a sign like this on the wall, I would politely inform the owner of the reasons that I will not be staying.

For the record, I am not israeli and I am not Jewish.

[meadish_sweetball]

As a point of interest, Swedes are banned from some establishments in the Alps, which according to the owners is a result of Swedish people having a problem with alcohol (getting too drunk and causing trouble). I am a Swede and fully understand this. Shame about the sign for all the Swedes who can hold their drink or do not drink at all, but still understandable. They have made a business decision.

Many Thai landlords do not want to rent out their houses to Thais, and their brokers explicitly state they want Westerners (even when my wife called, she was told this straight out).

Now... why is this? Since these brokers and landlords are mainly Thais themselves and Thai unity is an important and valued trait of this nation, I have to assume they have had experiences that lead to this decision, which bans their own brethren from renting property.

On the occasions I heard this, I pointed out I thought it was a shame about all the Thai people and families who are well behaved, and they agreed, but business was more important to them.

I think these people, like the guest house owners, are calling a spade a spade, but of course they are generalizing - which means that nice Israelis, Swedes and Thais have to suffer the consequences of their compatriots.

[Thaiquila]

OK, I am back.

I don't accept that banning Swedes is the same thing as banning Israeli Jews. Swedes do not have thousands of years of history of being persecuted in Europe (except by Norwegians?).

To ban Jews is a loaded thing. And don't act like it isn't.

Do you think the Malaysia ban on Israelis is not tied to anti-semitism? If you don't, you are wrong. You can find reams of vicious anti- Jewish garbage from Malaysia's leaders.

I believe many of the anti-Israeli attitudes from Thais were indeed picked up from anti-semitic farangs. They can't ban Americans, because most Americans aren't Jewish, but they can Israelis, because almost all Israelis are Jewish and they have painted them with the stereotypes they have learned.

Banning Israeli Jews only a business decision? Yeah, right.

So, I guess this restaurant also made a business decision, and it is A-OK with those "understanding" types here:

And, BTW, I suppose there are some "Negroes", Mexicans, and dogs who would understand this ban, but that doesn't prove anything except that they are self hating. I do understand the dog ban (apologies to the French).

Edited August 13, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Guest endure]

OK, I am back.

I don't accept that banning Swedes is the same thing as banning Israeli Jews. Swedes do not have thousands of years of history of being persecuted in Europe (except by Norwegians?).

To ban Jews is a loaded thing. And don't act like it isn't.

How many Thai guesthouse owners do you think understand, or even know of, the travails of the Jewish people?

[Thaiquila]

OK, I am back.

I don't accept that banning Swedes is the same thing as banning Israeli Jews. Swedes do not have thousands of years of history of being persecuted in Europe (except by Norwegians?).

To ban Jews is a loaded thing. And don't act like it isn't.

How many Thai guesthouse owners do you think understand, or even know of, the travails of the Jewish people?

Probably not many, but why is this relevant?

The guests of these guesthouses are mostly farang, and they tolerate or "understand" these bans.

These farangs know.

Banning Jewish Israelis from free access to public accomodation is indeed a politically loaded thing, whether the owners know it or not.

[kayo]

Phew.. reading the 5 pages of forty posts each page that has rather quickly sprung up here feels like running a marathon.

Maybe one of those signs should be put on the forum portal.

I think we´re missing something here, that reading this thread brings to mind.

Most Owners and what not in LOS are quite happily living a peaceful life, and not out to change the world or whatever...

Point is, they are living peaceful lives and can not be bothered with stressful people.

I´m the same. An annoying or irritating person is in my bar, regardless of nationality, I will do my utmost to get rid of that person. Don´t care if he´s irish, jewish, Negro, or a dog.

Or a woman.

And you know what, some people think I should deal with anybody.

To those people I say, shove your political correctness up your bodily..

Because the fact is, I like my peaceful life, it´s my bar, and I´ll be dam.ned to the wailing wall and back if I´m gonna have some snotty arrogant <deleted> tell me what I should do in my place.

so I repeat:

Point is, they are living peaceful lives and can not be bothered with stressful people.

Edited August 13, 2006 by kayo

[Charma]

I´m the same. An annoying or irritating person is in my bar, regardless of nationality, I will do my utmost to get rid of that person. Don´t care if he´s irish, jewish, Negro, or a dog.

Or a woman.

Yes Kayo, but do you put up signs that second guess where the person comes from, or do you wait and see if they are annoying or irritating first?

[helitool]

You guys sure are burning up the bandwidth on this one

If none of you have noticed for about the last 9 pages everyone has been repeating themselves which probably indicates that it has turned into a war of attrition and could possibly go on forever (It could be an allagory for the situation in the middle east)!

I just wanted to congradulate everyone for keeping this discussion civil and fairly on topic, I'm amazed it lasted this long.

Cheers: Ray

[Thaiquila]

Phew.. reading the 5 pages of forty posts each page that has rather quickly sprung up here feels like running a marathon.

Maybe one of those signs should be put on the forum portal.

I think we´re missing something here, that reading this thread brings to mind.

Most Owners and what not in LOS are quite happily living a peaceful life, and not out to change the world or whatever...

Point is, they are living peaceful lives and can not be bothered with stressful people.

I´m the same. An annoying or irritating person is in my bar, regardless of nationality, I will do my utmost to get rid of that person. Don´t care if he´s irish, jewish, Negro, or a dog.

Or a woman.

And you know what, some people think I should deal with anybody.

To those people I say, shove your political correctness up your bodily..

Because the fact is, I like my peaceful life, it´s my bar, and I´ll be dam.ned to the wailing wall and back if I´m gonna have some snotty arrogant <deleted> tell me what I should do in my place.

so I repeat:

Point is, they are living peaceful lives and can not be bothered with stressful people.

Cool.

I have a sign for you:

Of course, a business owner has every right to toss out troublemakers.

The problem here are the racist signs implying that ALL Israeli Jews are troublemakers.

I hope it is clear now that Israeli Jews, other Jews, and fair minded others are offended by this kind of racism. And yes, it is racism, targetting Jews from the Jewish state of Israel.

No different than the racism stating no Negroes or Mexicans.

[Gonzo the Face]

Welcome Back Thaiquila.

I congratulate you .... You were able to control your emotions for about 12 hrs. I had given you about 10 posts max.

I do not agree with most of what you write, but appreciate your zest.

Now I want to propose what may be an acceptable solution.

How about we [when we see a sign as those mentioned], tell the GH owner we all find offense in the wording of his sign because we feel it hurts the feelings of good Israelis. as we all agree all Israelis are not Jewish, and all Jewish are not Israeli's, and all good Israeli's are not Jewish and any combination of the above. Then we propose to give him a new sign which should satisify his needs and not offend anyone.

Perhaps it could read something like this, still short and sweet.

GOOD ISRAELI'S WELCOME

BAD ISRAELI'S NOT WELCOME

LOUD OBNOXIOUS ISRAELI'S NOT WELCOME

A$$HOLES OF ANY NATIONALITY NOT WELCOME

LIARS NOT WELCOME

VIOLATERS WILL BE SHOT

I see the vast majority of the posters on this thread as agreeing that the mentioned "NO ISRAELI'S" sigh is discriminatory, but that they see why the GH Owner would put it up , and that being to keep out a certain abusive and a non profitable element of customer..

I also see those few that are vehement and firebrand with their dogma as in no way being able to even that there is another side of the coin, much less try to understand the opposing side. they cannot.

We have seen posts from Jewish people, who understand. We have seen post from people who have been to Israel and understand. But the firebrand element would argue with their mother about her chicken soup, if mother told that it was chicken soup. They just do not have it in them to debate in good faith, without forcing or ramrodding their opinion down the throats of those opposed with out any ammendment, until those of opposing opinion would agree 100% and then thank them of the enlightment.

For those of you who continue to make this a racial, religious, thread, I say is it any wonder that there is such strife in the Middle East Today ???

This is my opinion only, and I expect it will be accepted by not too many here.

Its just sad, that we keep getting this eons of persecution thing brought up [as if no other group has been persecuted in all of history] into something that is a word, to the Thai Guest House owner, that best describes what he does not want in his customer base.

times we live in.

[Ulysses G.]

A$$HOLES OF ANY NATIONALITY NOT WELCOME

We ALL agree on this one. It covers all the bases and is all that is neccesary.

Keep it simple.

[sbk]

You guys sure are burning up the bandwidth on this one

If none of you have noticed for about the last 9 pages everyone has been repeating themselves which probably indicates that it has turned into a war of attrition and could possibly go on forever (It could be an allagory for the situation in the middle east)!

I just wanted to congradulate everyone for keeping this discussion civil and fairly on topic, I'm amazed it lasted this long.

Cheers: Ray

From me too, Ray. Cheers everyone for (the most part) managing to be civil

But, I also agree that the same points keep getting repeated over and over. Those who hold one opinin are not being swayed by the opposite side.

[Thaiquila]

Its just sad, that we keep getting this eons of persecution thing brought up [as if no other group has been persecuted in all of history] into something that is a word, to the Thai Guest House owner, that best describes what he does not want in his customer base.

Sad? Yes, it is sad. It is sad you don't think it is a valid point. The holocaust occurred about 60 years ago. The last I heard it was the worst genocide in human history. 60 years is not a long time ago in historical perspective. You want to world to forget this history? And you don't think it is valid for Israeli Jews to be offended at racial discrimination in the year 2006? And again, you are full of it, implying that this is about anything except Israeli Jews being denied accommodation based on their race (which in the case of Israelis is the same thing as their nationality).

And if you want to bring up politics, have you considered that young Israelis have no other choice but to be hard boiled when they live in a nation in a constant state of war, where all people have to serve in the military, where all of their neighbors wish to murder them and drive them into the sea? I am not saying the Palestinians don't have a valid cause, of course they do. But young Israelis haven't exactly been dealt the best hand either.

Maybe they do tend to be cliquish, because they know how much their nation is hated. But they aren't the only cliquish nationality traveling in Thailand, now are they?

Edited August 14, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Gonzo the Face]

Thaiquila

I sincerely feel sorry for you and all the burning bias and hatred you have inside.

But like an alcoholic, you cannot get help until you are ready for it... For your sake I do hope you get it.

Sincerely

Gonzo

[Thaiquila]

Thaiquila

I sincerely feel sorry for you and all the burning bias and hatred you have inside.

But like an alcoholic, you cannot get help until you are ready for it... For your sake I do hope you get it.

Sincerely

Gonzo

Your comment is absurdly personal. The only bias I have shown here is contempt for racists and people who tolerate racism (as well as those who make lame excuses for so called ignorant guest house owners). I also happen to support Israel and the Israeli people even the rude ones, that isn't hate, that is love.

Zesty enough for you?

Edited August 14, 2006 by Thaiquila

[Gonzo the Face]

Thaiquila

I sincerely feel sorry for you and all the burning bias and hatred you have inside.

But like an alcoholic, you cannot get help until you are ready for it... For your sake I do hope you get it.

Sincerely

Gonzo

Your comment is absurdly personal. The only bias I have shown here is contempt for racists and people who tolerate racism. I also happen to support Israel and the Israeli people even the rude ones, that isn't hate, that is love.

I rest my case.

Some people cannot even accept others being nice to them

[Thaiquila]

Thaiquila

I sincerely feel sorry for you and all the burning bias and hatred you have inside.

But like an alcoholic, you cannot get help until you are ready for it... For your sake I do hope you get it.

Sincerely

Gonzo

Your comment is absurdly personal. The only bias I have shown here is contempt for racists and people who tolerate racism. I also happen to support Israel and the Israeli people even the rude ones, that isn't hate, that is love.

I rest my case.

Some people cannot even accept others being nice to them

That was your way of being nice?

I guess you can rest your case at any guesthouse you like. Good on you.

Edited August 14, 2006 by Thaiquila

[sbk]

Tch tch. And here I was just congratulating you on not flaming.

I think this thread has really run its course, those of you who have one opinion will not be changing the minds of those have their own. If you are really interested check out the poll on this as it is a near duplicate of this topic.

topic closed