Koh Tao murder trial rescheduled

[boomerangutang]

you should leave this detective work thing to people that can deal with reality.

Is that a sick joke? "....leave this detective work thing to people that can deal with reality."

...like the people who can't tell the difference between stab wounds and punctures by a blunt object?

... or the people who allow prime suspects to walk all over a fresh crime scene which they're implicated in - touching and moving things without gloves ?

What sort of reality would that be? The reality of planting evidence, and then, when it's shown that the evidence must have been planted, just rearranging the fabricated story, and hoping every observer will be too stupid to add 1 plus 1 to equal 2.

[AleG]

you should leave this detective work thing to people that can deal with reality.

Is that a sick joke? "....leave this detective work thing to people that can deal with reality."

...like the people who can't tell the difference between stab wounds and punctures by a blunt object?

... or the people who allow prime suspects to walk all over a fresh crime scene which they're implicated in - touching and moving things without gloves ?

What sort of reality would that be? The reality of planting evidence, and then, when it's shown that the evidence must have been planted, just rearranging the fabricated story, and hoping every observer will be too stupid to add 1 plus 1 to equal 2.

As usual, you are proven wrong about something and your reaction is to run away in a tangent.

Edit to add, very telling how you deliberately removed the part on my quote were you are proven to be wrong.

Edited January 10, 2015 by AleG

[JLCrab]

According to The Nation report 5 JAN the sting was tied 'loosely' behind the Frenchman's back and that a suicide note was found written in French.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Frenchman-found-hung-in-Koh-Tao-foul-play-suspecte-30251171.html

(Maybe) Koh Tao Bulletin: Wanted -- Frenchman who can write phony suicide note in French -- call Headman ASAP.

I think your typing got ahead of your wit. Wouldn't you rather have written....

Wanted -- Thai who can write phony suicide note in French -- call Headman ASAP.

btw, look closely at the photo of black string (bootstring?) used to tie the hands at the wrists. It's quite tight.

Are Thai cops also gonna spin a false story on that tragic death? It wouldn't surprise most of us posting here.

The Nation said 'loosely' and also said: "The incident has been widely discussed on social media as bloggers questioned the circumstances around the tourist's death." So what else is new?

Where in the matter of hours can one find a Thai on Koh Tao who can write French such that it would be taken as a native speaking Frenchman?

[greenchair]

Where is my right jandal.

Someone sent it to me on Facebook with this picture. I didn't save it. The picture disappeared and the sender blocked me. It will be around. If you see it please post. Next to a rock

[Mooner]

Exactly my point BT. These witnesses - did they vanish into the ether after 1am? Was the beach deserted at the time of the crime? No one 'people watching'? No one talking, chatting, smoking, drinking, laughing etc? There must have been noise, music, arguments, screams, etc.

To assume only 2 victims and 2 suspects were the only ones present at the silent crime scene stretches any reasonable person's credibility.

There is no need to speculate or tax the imagination, the crime happened at the end of the beach, behind large boulders at a time very few people are awake.

With very few people awake it seems that the prosecution's witnesses will have little to add to this case.

The little cctv footage we have shows a western man and a thai lady and a running man. Added to that two Burmese men and Hannah and David.

I would imagine there would be more. If only the owners of CCTV footage would release them.

Why the need to hide it?

[Chetzee]

has anyone recently tried to walk at a reasonable pace wearing just one flip flop ?

Most ppl would not bother , barefoot would b the better option

If you are committed to the theory about a guy with one shoe , and his connection to the beach , could you please at least show us the pictures rather than keep on and on about it .

My guess is that if you are exiting a murder scene , even after a couple of beers , that you would notice you'd left your shoe behind . Think about it !

Edited January 10, 2015 by Chetzee

[greenchair]

Where is my jandal?

[greenchair]

Where is my jandal?

[Chetzee]

Where is my jandal?

post-223227-0-23285100-1420519434.jpg

ok thx

are you really saying that at 2 am that the crime has already been committed ?

[greenchair]

No , I am saying. On the other picture. A1 is supposed to be Muang. But at 11?12 Muang was in the shop. If the time is right he cannot be in 2 places. The jandal was at the crime scene. That man that cannot be any of the boys may or may not be involved. I am just saying he is not any of the boys.

[CharlieH]

Discuss the topic NOT THE POSTER any further instances of poster and not the topic will be removed without notice.

[berybert]

I think it strange that Chris Ware left the island so fast. Even if he had a flight booked, I think the circumstances warrant changing the flight. IMO the right thing to do would be to stick around, answer any questions the police may have that may assist them with finding the killers, take care of David's personal belongings, and, most importantly, be there to offer some comfort to the parents of your childhood friend when they arrive in a place they're probably unfamiliar and when they're no doubt going through the most horrific event of their lives. I have no doubt the sight of a familiar face would have been of great comfort to them.

In fact, did any of Hannah's friends stay to meet her parents when they arrived? If not I find that also somewhat odd, and lacking in compassion,

Ware's friends say he was wearing the trousers. He makes a run for the airport as fast as his legs can carry him after answering initial police questions. He gets stopped at the airport when they find the trousers. When they test the trousers for blood the test shows negative and he is allowed to leave.

I think it safe to assume that if the stains on the trousers were found to be Hannah's blood he would be locked up now and everyone would see it as an open and shut case. Has he ever said what caused the stain? He was wearing the trousers, so you would think he would know. If there's a simple explanation it would make sense for him to make it public to remove any suspicion. I personally have never had stains like that on any trousers I have owned, and I suspect neither have most people, so what are the chances of a pair of trousers showing up with stains like that on the lower legs on the night that a bloody double homicide occurs.... well, let's just say if the stains aren't blood then it's an incredibly bizarre coincidence.

DNA testing is expensive, time consuming and most testing labs have a backlog of evidence waiting to be tested, so it is logical that if the police were to send everything they find that resembles a bloodstain to the DNA lab for testing there will be additional expense and the backlog at the labs would just get worse. So instead the standard procedure that police forensics follow is to do presumptive tests on any stain that they think could be a blood stain. If the presumptive tests show positive for blood the item gets sent to the lab for analysis. If the test shows negative that's the end of it.

The police have only said that the stain was found not to be blood but some other chemical substance, which sounds a lot like they just did a presumptive test which showed up negative. The difference between Christopher Ware being locked up in Thailand and being free in the UK now is the result of that presumptive test, and in the link I posted it explains that it is possible to beat that test by soaking in an oxygen bleach solution for a couple of hours. That ain't rocket science.

This article suggests that oxygen bleach may not remove the DNA from bloodstains. If it's possible I would think that the defense team should request access to those trousers to conduct their own tests.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=0CDAQFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdownloads.hindawi.com%2Fjournals%2Ftswj%2F2010%2F825464.pdf&ei=IqKvVNP3FZKgugTz3oH4BA&usg=AFQjCNEnQn3XHBpswrElH7sD0AdJwByd4w&cad=rja

And I still think someone should have a chat with Mr Ware, if only to hear his side of the story.

There's just one little problem with your grand theory, the pants were Miller's not Ware's:

"As for the pair of stained pants found in Miller's luggage, the general admitted that the substance found on the clothing was not blood and that they belonged to Miller"

Ok lets try again.

Miller's pants were planted in Ware's suitcase by the police. The police tried to fit up Chris Ware. The police offered a taxi driver a lot of money to lie for them.

Seems to me the police are well into the conspiracy theory lark, more so than the ones here who are accused of being the same.

[loonodingle]

What this topic is about -- if you can remember the topic heading -- is that a trial of the 2 Burmese accused will begin this summer. At that point, the defense, at a minimum, may be able to show that any evidence put forward by the prosecution does not warrant a finding of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

What likely will not happen is that the defense will be able to pull off some Perry Mason courtroom moment by proving that some other person or persons is responsible for these crimes which seems to be the major focus of most of those posting on this and similar topics.

The focus should be on proving they didn't do it.

Its fair and reasonable to expect that in doing that, they may provide evidence that it was probably MR A or B etc

What they should focus on is getting 3rd party verification to disprove the DNA. Its the DNA that will kill them.

A bit of video etc don't do it. There was no video on the beach.

The UK should have done what was agreed my the 2 Prime Ministers. Simple.

Ok Ale G

That is false logic. While it is correct to aim to prove they didn't do it because blah, blah, no judge would accept it could have been A or B - that's fantasy without solid proof.

DNA on its own is only circumstantial evidence, it needs more to prove beyond reasonable doubt, but in any event I am hopeful the defence can shred the DNA evidence as being contaminated or not processed independently or whatever.

There was CCTV aimed at the beach from AC bar (as I understand it from a very early report), but these were withheld by the headman, and supported by the RTP as being private property. If the Burmese had been involved, I have no doubt that the CCTV would have been released post-haste.

As to the two PMs, its all rhetoric - a load of BS to appease the masses in both countries.

Sorry Stephen disagree with you.

The DNA is the nail in the coffin.

You can be convicted on DNA Alone end off.. Even in UK courts.

Try explaining why your sperm is in the victim... <deleted>.

[berybert]

What this topic is about -- if you can remember the topic heading -- is that a trial of the 2 Burmese accused will begin this summer. At that point, the defense, at a minimum, may be able to show that any evidence put forward by the prosecution does not warrant a finding of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

What likely will not happen is that the defense will be able to pull off some Perry Mason courtroom moment by proving that some other person or persons is responsible for these crimes which seems to be the major focus of most of those posting on this and similar topics.

The focus should be on proving they didn't do it.

Its fair and reasonable to expect that in doing that, they may provide evidence that it was probably MR A or B etc

What they should focus on is getting 3rd party verification to disprove the DNA. Its the DNA that will kill them.

A bit of video etc don't do it. There was no video on the beach.

The UK should have done what was agreed my the 2 Prime Ministers. Simple.

Ok Ale G

That is false logic. While it is correct to aim to prove they didn't do it because blah, blah, no judge would accept it could have been A or B - that's fantasy without solid proof.

DNA on its own is only circumstantial evidence, it needs more to prove beyond reasonable doubt, but in any event I am hopeful the defence can shred the DNA evidence as being contaminated or not processed independently or whatever.

There was CCTV aimed at the beach from AC bar (as I understand it from a very early report), but these were withheld by the headman, and supported by the RTP as being private property. If the Burmese had been involved, I have no doubt that the CCTV would have been released post-haste.

As to the two PMs, its all rhetoric - a load of BS to appease the masses in both countries.

Sorry Stephen disagree with you.

The DNA is the nail in the coffin.

You can be convicted on DNA Alone end off.. Even in UK courts.

Try explaining why your sperm is in the victim... <deleted>.

Easy. The Burmese were having a 3sum with Hannah. Jealous David saw what was going on and pulled the boys off Hannah, he then attacked her with the hoe smashing her head to pieces. At this time a couple of bouncers from the AC Bar saw him attacking her and they went to her aid and killed David. By which time Hannah was already dead.

So consenting sex doesn't make a person a murderer. DNA proves they had sex only. Tho I don't believe they have any DNA from Hannah's body.

If they had then the case would have been done and dusted a long time ago.

[greenchair]

If the b2 dna were sent to England. If the Eng coroner got dna from Hannah. If the dna matched. I would be finished with all this.

IF?❓❔

[AGareth2]

it is going to be hard to refute

unless they can prove they were not there

[greenchair]

Is this the photo you are looking for greenchair? This from an article in komchadluek. Not sure if I am allowed to link. The google translation from Thai to English is terrible. However, one part states '1 piece with blood stain on foot slippers'. Looks to be a thong [flip flop] at the base of the tree on the right side....hard to tell as when enlarged it distorts the image.

Do you have any more pics of the log? ?

[loonodingle]

I was thinking about those trousers that were found in David and Chris Ware's room. Apparently the police tested them and they came back negative for traces of blood, and instead the stains were from "some other chemical substance..." I've been trying to figure out what that other substance could possibly be and why the police would not say what it is.

Then I stumbled across something very interesting:

Apparently there are 2 basic types of bleach found in household cleaning products. The more common type is chlorine-based, and if you soak a bloodstained article of clothing in a chlorine bleach solution it will visually remove the bloodstain but does not remove traces of hemoglobin, and so if the police do a standard test for the presence of blood using luminol or phenolphthalein there will still be traces of hemoglobin which I believe will shine in the presence of a UV light,

The other type of bleach is what they call an oxygen bleach, which uses an oxidizing agent such as hydrogen peroxide, and this type of bleach removes all traces of hemoglobin however the stain on the clothing will still be visible, although somewhat faded:

"To properly assess whether bleach could fully remove blood, researchers soaked some bloodstained clothing in oxygen bleach for a couple of hours. After the bleaching, stains did look faded, although they were still somewhat noticeable. On the other hand, even though there was some visible marking, luminol and phenolphthalein didn't detect the haemoglobin on the clothing."

"The results are worrying because a stain on clothing could be assumed to occur from something else when a test shows up negative for haemoglobin. Eventually, valuable evidence could ultimately be dismissed, which then affects the entire criminal investigation and trial proceedings. Forensics experts will not examine and check for important DNA Evidence until they have initially found an appropriately identified blood sample."

(Source: http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html)

So I guess that would mean that a pair of heavily bloodstained trousers, in the space of only a couple of hours in a oxygen bleach solution, could end up looking something like this:

Trousers.jpg

I wonder if the DNA from the blood would still be present after bleaching. I also wonder where those trousers may be now...

In a previous post AleG managed to convince me that the trousers had not been planted, but even if he's wrong, how the hell could the Burmese lads get access to David and Chris' room? This looks like a smoking gun to me...

I think someone needs to be having a chat with this young man:

Chris Ware.jpg

I read early reports saying that 2 of their friends confirmed these were the trousers that Chris Ware was wearing that night. In the CCTV footage he is seen wearing shorts, but then I think I read that he went back to the room with David, then David said he was going out to buy a pack of smokes and actually went looking for Hannah at AC Bar. It would not surprise me to learn that when David didn't come back Chris went out looking for him - I wonder what he wore when/if he went out a second time...

Was he not the guy that was reported as being gay...?

I think you are way of mark here. If that was blood they would know. Do you honestly think after 3 Asian DNA is found on Hannah that you can peddled this. The slightest chance of him being Involved and they would have had him. UNLIKE Sean McAnna who left the island with a fanfare and pictures with the police chief.

I think it strange that Chris Ware left the island so fast. Even if he had a flight booked, I think the circumstances warrant changing the flight. IMO the right thing to do would be to stick around, answer any questions the police may have that may assist them with finding the killers, take care of David's personal belongings, and, most importantly, be there to offer some comfort to the parents of your childhood friend when they arrive in a place they're probably unfamiliar and when they're no doubt going through the most horrific event of their lives. I have no doubt the sight of a familiar face would have been of great comfort to them.

In fact, did any of Hannah's friends stay to meet her parents when they arrived? If not I find that also somewhat odd, and lacking in compassion,

Ware's friends say he was wearing the trousers. He makes a run for the airport as fast as his legs can carry him after answering initial police questions. He gets stopped at the airport when they find the trousers. When they test the trousers for blood the test shows negative and he is allowed to leave.

I think it safe to assume that if the stains on the trousers were found to be Hannah's blood he would be locked up now and everyone would see it as an open and shut case. Has he ever said what caused the stain? He was wearing the trousers, so you would think he would know. If there's a simple explanation it would make sense for him to make it public to remove any suspicion. I personally have never had stains like that on any trousers I have owned, and I suspect neither have most people, so what are the chances of a pair of trousers showing up with stains like that on the lower legs on the night that a bloody double homicide occurs.... well, let's just say if the stains aren't blood then it's an incredibly bizarre coincidence.

DNA testing is expensive, time consuming and most testing labs have a backlog of evidence waiting to be tested, so it is logical that if the police were to send everything they find that resembles a bloodstain to the DNA lab for testing there will be additional expense and the backlog at the labs would just get worse. So instead the standard procedure that police forensics follow is to do presumptive tests on any stain that they think could be a blood stain. If the presumptive tests show positive for blood the item gets sent to the lab for analysis. If the test shows negative that's the end of it.

The police have only said that the stain was found not to be blood but some other chemical substance, which sounds a lot like they just did a presumptive test which showed up negative. The difference between Christopher Ware being locked up in Thailand and being free in the UK now is the result of that presumptive test, and in the link I posted it explains that it is possible to beat that test by soaking in an oxygen bleach solution for a couple of hours. That ain't rocket science.

This article suggests that oxygen bleach may not remove the DNA from bloodstains. If it's possible I would think that the defense team should request access to those trousers to conduct their own tests.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=0CDAQFjAEOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdownloads.hindawi.com%2Fjournals%2Ftswj%2F2010%2F825464.pdf&ei=IqKvVNP3FZKgugTz3oH4BA&usg=AFQjCNEnQn3XHBpswrElH7sD0AdJwByd4w&cad=rja

And I still think someone should have a chat with Mr Ware, if only to hear his side of the story.

You think it strange to leave the Island ???? Really.... The police have said OK you can go.

Your holiday is over.... your friends had his brains smashed in. A girl you met called Hannah has had half her skull nearly taken of her head and you want to stay on Island???

What would you say hey...Oh well lets go snorkelling for the day.

Me I would be concerned for my own life. The killers are out there.

[AleG]

There's just one little problem with your grand theory, the pants were Miller's not Ware's:

"As for the pair of stained pants found in Miller's luggage, the general admitted that the substance found on the clothing was not blood and that they belonged to Miller"

Ok lets try again.

Miller's pants were planted in Ware's suitcase by the police. The police tried to fit up Chris Ware. The police offered a taxi driver a lot of money to lie for them.

Seems to me the police are well into the conspiracy theory lark, more so than the ones here who are accused of being the same.

This is false: "Miller's pants were planted in Ware's suitcase by the police.", as clearly stated on the link I provided (and you quoted), the shorts where in Miller's luggage, not Ware's.

[AleG]

If the b2 dna were sent to England. If the Eng coroner got dna from Hannah. If the dna matched. I would be finished with all this.

IF?❓❔

Indeed, why hasn't the defense pursued that route to prove the innocence of the Burmese men?

Instead they are dragging the case for months.

[berybert]

There's just one little problem with your grand theory, the pants were Miller's not Ware's:

"As for the pair of stained pants found in Miller's luggage, the general admitted that the substance found on the clothing was not blood and that they belonged to Miller"

Ok lets try again.

Miller's pants were planted in Ware's suitcase by the police. The police tried to fit up Chris Ware. The police offered a taxi driver a lot of money to lie for them.

Seems to me the police are well into the conspiracy theory lark, more so than the ones here who are accused of being the same.

This is false: "Miller's pants were planted in Ware's suitcase by the police.", as clearly stated on the link I provided (and you quoted), the shorts where in Miller's luggage, not Ware's.

So Miller's pants were planted in Miller's suitcase and Chris Ware was questioned about it ? Gets rather confusing doesn't it.

Miller had shorts on or off when he was murdered, so why would anyone be looking for a pair of trousers. I agree that Thai's/Burmese don't mind swapping clothes but it is not something the Brits do. That is of course if the police thought that Ware was wearing Miller's trousers on the night of the murder.

Glad you didn't question the taxi driver being paid to lie.

Edit.Just had a re-read of this story. The police believe the trousers that were found in Miller's luggage belonged to Chris Ware.

Why would Ware put his trousers in Miller's suitcase ?

It seems he like Sean was got out of the way a little to quickly.

Edited January 10, 2015 by berybert

[Eirene]

One theory regarding the DNA is that IF the two lads were tested during the initial round of tests, these samples were saved and switched with the original samples from the victim. Then they conducted another round of collecting samples....found a match. Not saying this is what took place just that with all the BS surrounding this case anything is possible. I have no idea who commited this horrific crime although I sincerely hope that the monsters responsible are brought to justice to enable closure to the families of the victims. MOO

[berybert]

If the b2 dna were sent to England. If the Eng coroner got dna from Hannah. If the dna matched. I would be finished with all this.

IF?❓❔

Indeed, why hasn't the defense pursued that route to prove the innocence of the Burmese men?

Instead they are dragging the case for months.

This will be because as you have spent the last 4 months telling us, the Brits were there to observe only.

The Brits will not release their findings until the case is over.

I.e. the Brits have let it's nation down as well as the people of Thailand and Burma.

[Eirene]

No sorry this was the only version I found. There was some mention of rice bags as well, could not make much sense out of the translation.

Is this the photo you are looking for greenchair? This from an article in komchadluek. Not sure if I am allowed to link. The google translation from Thai to English is terrible. However, one part states '1 piece with blood stain on foot slippers'. Looks to be a thong [flip flop] at the base of the tree on the right side....hard to tell as when enlarged it distorts the image.

Do you have any more pics of the log? ?

[loonodingle]

If the b2 dna were sent to England. If the Eng coroner got dna from Hannah. If the dna matched. I would be finished with all this.

IF?❓❔

Yes.... absolutely.. That's what is needed. is it them or not.. its simple. the Thai's cannot Test DNA to the accuracy of the UK or Singapore for example which is why they were going to send it out of the country. However they changed their minds... No comment!!

[AGareth2]

One theory regarding the DNA is that IF the two lads were tested during the initial round of tests, these samples were saved and switched with the original samples from the victim. Then they conducted another round of collecting samples....found a match. Not saying this is what took place just that with all the BS surrounding this case anything is possible. I have no idea who commited this horrific crime although I sincerely hope that the monsters responsible are brought to justice to enable closure to the families of the victims. MOO

I doubt it is the first time

but how to prove it is the problem

The way I see it is that if it is their DNA then case is over

not solved though as I still can't see how the 2 midgets could have carried out the murders

but they will go down

Edited January 10, 2015 by AGareth2

[thailandchilli]

If the b2 dna were sent to England. If the Eng coroner got dna from Hannah. If the dna matched. I would be finished with all this.

IF?❓❔

Indeed, why hasn't the defense pursued that route to prove the innocence of the Burmese men?

Instead they are dragging the case for months.

Simple really, the RTP and Thai authorities would never allow that to happen...............

One of the UK police/government prime concerns and requirements was to get independent DNA testing of the B2, of course this never happened, wonder why??

[loonodingle]

If the b2 dna were sent to England. If the Eng coroner got dna from Hannah. If the dna matched. I would be finished with all this.

IF?❓❔

Indeed, why hasn't the defense pursued that route to prove the innocence of the Burmese men?

Instead they are dragging the case for months.

The Defense are actually doing a lot.

Maya Foa and her team at Reprieve is doing a lot. I spoke to her and they are onto to the FCO for example. There's an awful lot going behind this char forum. Do NOT think that they are sitting on their hands waiting for this forum to come up with a solution because they aren't.

[JLCrab]

As was discussed several months back, if the remains were sent to the UK embalmed -- and such would be the standard procedure and there was no indication that any other procedure was followed -- the UK coroner would've had problem enough getting sufficient DNA to identify the remains let alone DNA from some other party.

[berybert]

If the b2 dna were sent to England. If the Eng coroner got dna from Hannah. If the dna matched. I would be finished with all this.

IF?❓❔

Indeed, why hasn't the defense pursued that route to prove the innocence of the Burmese men?

Instead they are dragging the case for months.

The Defense are actually doing a lot.

Maya Foa and her team at Reprieve is doing a lot. I spoke to her and they are onto to the FCO for example. There's an awful lot going behind this char forum. Do NOT think that they are sitting on their hands waiting for this forum to come up with a solution because they aren't.

You mean they wasn't awaiting noon to see the picture of the Jandel ?

I very much doubt forums will play any role for the defense or prosecution teams.