Lamai Beach - Wrecked

[No1Farang]

The whole of Lamai Beach has a massive, and I mean massive, amount of wood vegetation washed up by the last tide. Nobody can swim. Are any other beaches affected? I wonder where this all came from.

[samuijimmy]

Well considering the high tides and storms these last few weeks most beaches around the island are not looking their best right now.... and another huge wind storm hitting Maenam area right now... probably other areas too...?

The best beach I have seen in the last week is west of Hau Thanon.... but that could have changed by now... the south end seems a bit calmer... during north and east winds on exposed beaches!

Calmer weather would be nice..we had a short glimpse of that yesterday.....

[Battybird]

We've had bad weather for almost a month so of course there is going to be a lot of debris on the beach. Bang Por is covered in it.

[khunPer]

Well considering the high tides and storms these last few weeks most beaches around the island are not looking their best right now.... and another huge wind storm hitting Maenam area right now... probably other areas too...?

The best beach I have seen in the last week is west of Hau Thanon.... but that could have changed by now... the south end seems a bit calmer... during north and east winds on exposed beaches!

Calmer weather would be nice..we had a short glimpse of that yesterday.....

And the day before yesterday we were cleaning the beaches, so they were nice yesterday - however, after the monsoon season debris will continue to come in on the beaches for a while and almost daily clean-up needed...

[samuijimmy]

Well considering the high tides and storms these last few weeks most beaches around the island are not looking their best right now.... and another huge wind storm hitting Maenam area right now... probably other areas too...?

The best beach I have seen in the last week is west of Hau Thanon.... but that could have changed by now... the south end seems a bit calmer... during north and east winds on exposed beaches!

Calmer weather would be nice..we had a short glimpse of that yesterday.....

And the day before yesterday we were cleaning the beaches, so they were nice yesterday - however, after the monsoon season debris will continue to come in on the beaches for a while and almost daily clean-up needed...

There's lots of sea weed around too, which we don't often see, that is good to put on the garden.... so take some bags and collect and put around trees and shrubs! !

Then you won't be cleaning it up the next day!

[crusty]

Well considering the high tides and storms these last few weeks most beaches around the island are not looking their best right now.... and another huge wind storm hitting Maenam area right now... probably other areas too...?

The best beach I have seen in the last week is west of Hau Thanon.... but that could have changed by now... the south end seems a bit calmer... during north and east winds on exposed beaches!

Calmer weather would be nice..we had a short glimpse of that yesterday.....

It can't come from Thailand. Everytime this happens the Thai locals always say "It comes from Cambodia" !

[MoonShadow]

Well considering the high tides and storms these last few weeks most beaches around the island are not looking their best right now.... and another huge wind storm hitting Maenam area right now... probably other areas too...?

The best beach I have seen in the last week is west of Hau Thanon.... but that could have changed by now... the south end seems a bit calmer... during north and east winds on exposed beaches!

Calmer weather would be nice..we had a short glimpse of that yesterday.....

It can't come from Thailand. Everytime this happens the Thai locals always say "It comes from Cambodia" !

You must live under a rock somewhere.....this is normal! Samui has 2 monsoon seasons; October-April is the North-East Monsoon where the wind is predominantly from the east (N/E -S/E) so everything in the sea will be pushed, washed in a Westerly direction. Beaches that face east and North will get all of this washed up......April-Sept is the South West Monsoon so everything gets washed towards Cambodia and the West and South facing beaches get the rubbish flotsom and jetsom from the West and the North and East facing beaches are clean!! At the moment we are finding beach loungers from Koh Phagnan resorts on Baan Tai beach!!

The strong N/E winds and longshoredrift from the east have made this particularly bad. Remember, everything you put in the sea will wash up somewhere eventually!!

[cajna]

I live on Huathanon beach andI walk on the beach every morning. Today was the worst morning this month, full of seawed and of course garbage. yesterday I picked up 40 kg glasbottels.......................ten timesmore than usual !

[spidermike007]

Well considering the high tides and storms these last few weeks most beaches around the island are not looking their best right now.... and another huge wind storm hitting Maenam area right now... probably other areas too...?

The best beach I have seen in the last week is west of Hau Thanon.... but that could have changed by now... the south end seems a bit calmer... during north and east winds on exposed beaches!

Calmer weather would be nice..we had a short glimpse of that yesterday.....

It can't come from Thailand. Everytime this happens the Thai locals always say "It comes from Cambodia" !

You must live under a rock somewhere.....this is normal! Samui has 2 monsoon seasons; October-April is the North-East Monsoon where the wind is predominantly from the east (N/E -S/E) so everything in the sea will be pushed, washed in a Westerly direction. Beaches that face east and North will get all of this washed up......April-Sept is the South West Monsoon so everything gets washed towards Cambodia and the West and South facing beaches get the rubbish flotsom and jetsom from the West and the North and East facing beaches are clean!! At the moment we are finding beach loungers from Koh Phagnan resorts on Baan Tai beach!!

The strong N/E winds and longshoredrift from the east have made this particularly bad. Remember, everything you put in the sea will wash up somewhere eventually!!

And your last statement is exactly why the officials on Samui have to create a municipal waste treatment plant, and prevent dumping of waste into the waters off the island. It is time to stop fouling the Gulf. It is time for responsible authorities to start acting in a responsible fashion. Believe me, it is not only wood debris that is washing up onto those beaches! I suggest swimming with a 6 mm neoprene wetsuit, if swimming in the waters around samui. The bacterial particulate matter in those waters is off the charts. Edited December 30, 2014 by spidermike007

[2fishin2]

Well considering the high tides and storms these last few weeks most beaches around the island are not looking their best right now.... and another huge wind storm hitting Maenam area right now... probably other areas too...?

The best beach I have seen in the last week is west of Hau Thanon.... but that could have changed by now... the south end seems a bit calmer... during north and east winds on exposed beaches!

Calmer weather would be nice..we had a short glimpse of that yesterday.....

It can't come from Thailand. Everytime this happens the Thai locals always say "It comes from Cambodia" !

You must live under a rock somewhere.....this is normal! Samui has 2 monsoon seasons; October-April is the North-East Monsoon where the wind is predominantly from the east (N/E -S/E) so everything in the sea will be pushed, washed in a Westerly direction. Beaches that face east and North will get all of this washed up......April-Sept is the South West Monsoon so everything gets washed towards Cambodia and the West and South facing beaches get the rubbish flotsom and jetsom from the West and the North and East facing beaches are clean!! At the moment we are finding beach loungers from Koh Phagnan resorts on Baan Tai beach!!

The strong N/E winds and longshoredrift from the east have made this particularly bad. Remember, everything you put in the sea will wash up somewhere eventually!!

And your last statement is exactly why the officials on Samui have to create a municipal waste treatment plant, and prevent dumping of waste into the waters off the island. It is time to stop fouling the Gulf. It is time for responsible authorities to start acting in a responsible fashion. Believe me, it is not only wood debris that is washing up onto those beaches! I suggest swimming with a 6 mm neoprene wetsuit, if swimming in the waters around samui. The bacterial particulate matter in those waters is off the charts.

Anywhere you throw trash, anywhere it has the potential to end up on a beach. MANY of the items that wash up on a beach dont come from the ocean but land, creeks and rivers. No normal Thai gives a rats pooper about waste management of any kind. As with any island, the "trash" you see is predominately from other areas and not so much from the island itself.

[spidermike007]

While there is some truth to that, the main issue on Samui is the dumping, or should I say pumping of waste matter, directly into the sea. This is a 15th century practice, and should not be tolerated on a multi billion dollar resort island. It is a scandal.

Edited December 30, 2014 by PoorSucker
removed tangled quotes

[sydneyjed]

Does Lamai still cop this on the beaches in March?

Thinking of visiting down there then for a change of scenery!

[PoorSucker]

Does Lamai still cop this on the beaches in March?

Thinking of visiting down there then for a change of scenery!

It going to be fine in a couple of weeks when the waves gets lower.

[2fishin2]

While there is some truth to that, the main issue on Samui is the dumping, or should I say pumping of waste matter, directly into the sea. This is a 15th century practice, and should not be tolerated on a multi billion dollar resort island. It is a scandal.

Your precious island is part of thailand. They dump waste all over the entire country....dont think you are special and deserving of your own "scandal". lol

[spidermike007]

While there is some truth to that, the main issue on Samui is the dumping, or should I say pumping of waste matter, directly into the sea. This is a 15th century practice, and should not be tolerated on a multi billion dollar resort island. It is a scandal.

Your precious island is part of thailand. They dump waste all over the entire country....dont think you are special and deserving of your own "scandal". lol

This is patently untrue. There is minimal dumping on Phuket. The authorities there realize water quality is a big and very important issue. Same goes for most of Prachuap province. A lot of pride up there. The local people really care about their area, unlike Samui, where the top priority is a fast buck, and the authorities are fabulously irresponsible. No care is given to the environment.

[2fishin2]

While there is some truth to that, the main issue on Samui is the dumping, or should I say pumping of waste matter, directly into the sea. This is a 15th century practice, and should not be tolerated on a multi billion dollar resort island. It is a scandal.

Your precious island is part of thailand. They dump waste all over the entire country....dont think you are special and deserving of your own "scandal". lol

This is patently untrue. There is minimal dumping on Phuket. The authorities there realize water quality is a big and very important issue. Same goes for most of Prachuap province. A lot of pride up there. The local people really care about their area, unlike Samui, where the top priority is a fast buck, and the authorities are fabulously irresponsible. No care is given to the environment.

Please dont get me started on Phuket....I live here and let me tell you waste dumping is MAXIMUM. all straight into the sea my misinformed friend. I guess you dont remember the stories of black water being dumped into the ocean at phuket?? The local people dont give a poop about trash or waste management. Every tourist area has the exact SAME problems.

[spidermike007]

While there is some truth to that, the main issue on Samui is the dumping, or should I say pumping of waste matter, directly into the sea. This is a 15th century practice, and should not be tolerated on a multi billion dollar resort island. It is a scandal.

Your precious island is part of thailand. They dump waste all over the entire country....dont think you are special and deserving of your own "scandal". lol

This is patently untrue. There is minimal dumping on Phuket. The authorities there realize water quality is a big and very important issue. Same goes for most of Prachuap province. A lot of pride up there. The local people really care about their area, unlike Samui, where the top priority is a fast buck, and the authorities are fabulously irresponsible. No care is given to the environment.

Please dont get me started on Phuket....I live here and let me tell you waste dumping is MAXIMUM. all straight into the sea my misinformed friend. I guess you dont remember the stories of black water being dumped into the ocean at phuket?? The local people dont give a poop about trash or waste management. Every tourist area has the exact SAME problems.

Wow. Sorry to hear that. It is a travesty. An abomination. That the authorities would not only allow it, but be party to it? It is like raping your own land. Dumping into the Andaman is a bit like sending spent uranium into space. Shame on the government, Prayuth, the army, Mayor Jaikwong, and all of the local and state officials in all of the areas that engage in fouling their land and seas.

[samuijimmy]

OMG !

What nonsense saying sewage is not being dumped into the sea, in first world countries! (even untreated) ... and I get accused of living under a rock..... Well at least my head is not stuck in the sand.... or the 15th century!

There are not that many places on Samui where the stuff is put out to sea, (septic tanks yes, but that too is the way it is done in many areas of the first world). One area of Lamai, and the area at end of Soi 4 Maenam, is a bit wiffy sometimes. I think I know most beach areas better than most... where are the other areas, pipes go into the sea ?

It's a wonder that the thousands and thousands of tourists and locals are not all getting sick, or dropping dead from pollution after swimming in the sea... they are not and not swimming in wetsuits either

As for the weather this last month or so, it has not been "normal" even November was not as wet as it has been in past years (last year the same decrease in November rain over most parts of Samui) Virtually no if any major flooding that I remember here this year... on the islands.

Keep up the negative spin some of you, if you guys want, I and many others enjoy living here... one wonders too why so many people come back each year....

Yes it's not perfect, but is anywhere? NO!

Edited December 31, 2014 by samuijimmy

[mike80122]

While there is some truth to that, the main issue on Samui is the dumping, or should I say pumping of waste matter, directly into the sea. This is a 15th century practice, and should not be tolerated on a multi billion dollar resort island. It is a scandal.

NYC dumped their waste directly into the Hudson River until just a few years ago and 6 cities upriver are still dumping raw sewage into the river!

[spidermike007]

While there is some truth to that, the main issue on Samui is the dumping, or should I say pumping of waste matter, directly into the sea. This is a 15th century practice, and should not be tolerated on a multi billion dollar resort island. It is a scandal.

NYC dumped their waste directly into the Hudson River until just a few years ago and 6 cities upriver are still dumping raw sewage into the river!

Well, that does not make it right. If you are running a multi billion dollar tourist island, shouldn't one of your top priorities be to keep the waters as pristine as possible? Does that not make sense? All of the independent studies on water quality I have seen on samui are very scary. Very toxic. Very polluted, and loaded with harmful bacteria. And yes, tourists do get sick on Samui from swimming. And they are doing a lot of dumping of waste into the sea.

[crusty]

OMG !

What nonsense saying sewage is not being dumped into the sea, in first world countries! (even untreated) ... and I get accused of living under a rock..... Well at least my head is not stuck in the sand.... or the 15th century!

There are not that many places on Samui where the stuff is put out to sea, (septic tanks yes, but that too is the way it is done in many areas of the first world). One area of Lamai, and the area at end of Soi 4 Maenam, is a bit wiffy sometimes. I think I know most beach areas better than most... where are the other areas, pipes go into the sea ?

It's a wonder that the thousands and thousands of tourists and locals are not all getting sick, or dropping dead from pollution after swimming in the sea... they are not and not swimming in wetsuits either

As for the weather this last month or so, it has not been "normal" even November was not as wet as it has been in past years (last year the same decrease in November rain over most parts of Samui) Virtually no if any major flooding that I remember here this year... on the islands.

Keep up the negative spin some of you, if you guys want, I and many others enjoy living here... one wonders too why so many people come back each year....

Yes it's not perfect, but is anywhere? NO!

Here is the pipe outlet from a large resort on Chaweng Noi and every hotel, guesthouse and eatery along Chaweng Beach road from Laem Din, pipe their waste directly into the klong which then flows to the sea at First bungalows.

[Beng]

OMG !

What nonsense saying sewage is not being dumped into the sea, in first world countries! (even untreated) ... and I get accused of living under a rock..... Well at least my head is not stuck in the sand.... or the 15th century!

There are not that many places on Samui where the stuff is put out to sea, (septic tanks yes, but that too is the way it is done in many areas of the first world). One area of Lamai, and the area at end of Soi 4 Maenam, is a bit wiffy sometimes. I think I know most beach areas better than most... where are the other areas, pipes go into the sea ?

It's a wonder that the thousands and thousands of tourists and locals are not all getting sick, or dropping dead from pollution after swimming in the sea... they are not and not swimming in wetsuits either

As for the weather this last month or so, it has not been "normal" even November was not as wet as it has been in past years (last year the same decrease in November rain over most parts of Samui) Virtually no if any major flooding that I remember here this year... on the islands.

Keep up the negative spin some of you, if you guys want, I and many others enjoy living here... one wonders too why so many people come back each year....

Yes it's not perfect, but is anywhere? NO!

Here is the pipe outlet from a large resort on Chaweng Noi and every hotel, guesthouse and eatery along Chaweng Beach road from Laem Din, pipe their waste directly into the klong which then flows to the sea at First bungalows.

And this is going on ever since.

[Beng]

Well considering the high tides and storms these last few weeks most beaches around the island are not looking their best right now.... and another huge wind storm hitting Maenam area right now... probably other areas too...?

The best beach I have seen in the last week is west of Hau Thanon.... but that could have changed by now... the south end seems a bit calmer... during north and east winds on exposed beaches!

Calmer weather would be nice..we had a short glimpse of that yesterday.....

It can't come from Thailand. Everytime this happens the Thai locals always say "It comes from Cambodia" !

You must live under a rock somewhere.....this is normal! Samui has 2 monsoon seasons; October-April is the North-East Monsoon where the wind is predominantly from the east (N/E -S/E) so everything in the sea will be pushed, washed in a Westerly direction. Beaches that face east and North will get all of this washed up......April-Sept is the South West Monsoon so everything gets washed towards Cambodia and the West and South facing beaches get the rubbish flotsom and jetsom from the West and the North and East facing beaches are clean!! At the moment we are finding beach loungers from Koh Phagnan resorts on Baan Tai beach!!

The strong N/E winds and longshoredrift from the east have made this particularly bad. Remember, everything you put in the sea will wash up somewhere eventually!!

And your last statement is exactly why the officials on Samui have to create a municipal waste treatment plant, and prevent dumping of waste into the waters off the island. It is time to stop fouling the Gulf. It is time for responsible authorities to start acting in a responsible fashion. Believe me, it is not only wood debris that is washing up onto those beaches! I suggest swimming with a 6 mm neoprene wetsuit, if swimming in the waters around samui. The bacterial particulate matter in those waters is off the charts.

Samui has a garbage incinerator plant. It Was built around1996 by a japanese company It's on the right hand side off the ring road, going from Hua Thanon towards the waterfall.

[spidermike007]

Well considering the high tides and storms these last few weeks most beaches around the island are not looking their best right now.... and another huge wind storm hitting Maenam area right now... probably other areas too...?

The best beach I have seen in the last week is west of Hau Thanon.... but that could have changed by now... the south end seems a bit calmer... during north and east winds on exposed beaches!

Calmer weather would be nice..we had a short glimpse of that yesterday.....

It can't come from Thailand. Everytime this happens the Thai locals always say "It comes from Cambodia" !

You must live under a rock somewhere.....this is normal! Samui has 2 monsoon seasons; October-April is the North-East Monsoon where the wind is predominantly from the east (N/E -S/E) so everything in the sea will be pushed, washed in a Westerly direction. Beaches that face east and North will get all of this washed up......April-Sept is the South West Monsoon so everything gets washed towards Cambodia and the West and South facing beaches get the rubbish flotsom and jetsom from the West and the North and East facing beaches are clean!! At the moment we are finding beach loungers from Koh Phagnan resorts on Baan Tai beach!!

The strong N/E winds and longshoredrift from the east have made this particularly bad. Remember, everything you put in the sea will wash up somewhere eventually!!

And your last statement is exactly why the officials on Samui have to create a municipal waste treatment plant, and prevent dumping of waste into the waters off the island. It is time to stop fouling the Gulf. It is time for responsible authorities to start acting in a responsible fashion. Believe me, it is not only wood debris that is washing up onto those beaches! I suggest swimming with a 6 mm neoprene wetsuit, if swimming in the waters around samui. The bacterial particulate matter in those waters is off the charts.

Samui has a garbage incinerator plant. It Was built around1996 by a japanese company It's on the right hand side off the ring road, going from Hua Thanon towards the waterfall.

But, I was not referring to that kind of waste. I was referring to human waste being pumped into the sea. Jaikwong should be truly ashamed for allowing that to happen. There should massive fines for that kind of abhorrent behavior.

[jamesbrock]

Samui has a garbage incinerator plant. It Was built around1996 by a japanese company It's on the right hand side off the ring road, going from Hua Thanon towards the waterfall.

Hasn't it been "broken" for the past 6 years? I seem to recall a news article about the locals protesting the massive build-up of waste last month (or November).

[krisb]

This thread is about brown sticks

Not sticky browns

[spidermike007]

Here is an excerpt from a recent Samui Times interview:

Chanel 3’s roaming reporter attended a seminar held to find a solution to the sewage problem in Koh Samui. The seminar took place at the Samui Paradise resort with Mr Chatpong Chattaraputi, Surat Thani Provincial Governor, Mr Ramnet Jaiglang, Koh Samui’s Lord Mayor and Mr Thanongsak Somwang, Promotion Association (to represent the people) in attendance.

The main question posed was “does 100% of waste water flow into the sea or not?”

waste waterA report showed that for the four years the septic systems in Koh Samui have been malfunctioning and rather than being contained in a system of sewerage wells, it has been seeping into bodies of water and the Tasman Lake along with waste water from local households. During the severe flooding three years ago, all of the untreated waste was washed into the sea causing considerable damage to the aquatic environment. The main concern is that if the sewerage issue is not resolved it will start to affect tourism costing the country billions in tourist revenue every year.

It is not possible to repair the current system and ideas such as damming the area around the wells and putting in some kind of filtration system as well as biological solutions to treating the waste have been discussed. Tour operators are especially concerned about the waste management situation as damage to aquatic life could ruin what is one of the islands biggest tourist attractions.

Mr Ramnet Jaiglang, Koh Samui Lord Mayor said that the Municipality has plans to install a separate water pipe and two more waste water wells in addition to the existing three, during the next three months, in Bophut and Hua Thanon to accommodate the islands increasing demands.

[crusty]

Here is an excerpt from a recent Samui Times interview:

Chanel 3’s roaming reporter attended a seminar held to find a solution to the sewage problem in Koh Samui. The seminar took place at the Samui Paradise resort with Mr Chatpong Chattaraputi, Surat Thani Provincial Governor, Mr Ramnet Jaiglang, Koh Samui’s Lord Mayor and Mr Thanongsak Somwang, Promotion Association (to represent the people) in attendance.

The main question posed was “does 100% of waste water flow into the sea or not?”

waste waterA report showed that for the four years the septic systems in Koh Samui have been malfunctioning and rather than being contained in a system of sewerage wells, it has been seeping into bodies of water and the Tasman Lake along with waste water like thisfrom local households. During the severe flooding three years ago, all of the untreated waste was washed into the sea causing considerable damage to the aquatic environment. The main concern is that if the sewerage issue is not resolved it will start to affect tourism costing the country billions in tourist revenue every year.

It is not possible to repair the current system and ideas such as damming the area around the wells and putting in some kind of filtration system as well as biological solutions to treating the waste have been discussed. Tour operators are especially concerned about the waste management situation as damage to aquatic life could ruin what is one of the islands biggest tourist attractions.

Mr Ramnet Jaiglang, Koh Samui Lord Mayor said that the Municipality has plans to install a separate water pipe and two more waste water wells in addition to the existing three, during the next three months, in Bophut and Hua Thanon to accommodate the islands increasing demands.

Ha ! The wast water treatment plant in Chaweng opposite the police station and built for B600m Baht over six years ago HAS NEVER BEEN TURNED ON ! Fix this and we may begin believing in your "news" handouts. With governance like this no hope for Koh Samui !

[spidermike007]

Here is an excerpt from a recent Samui Times interview:

Chanel 3’s roaming reporter attended a seminar held to find a solution to the sewage problem in Koh Samui. The seminar took place at the Samui Paradise resort with Mr Chatpong Chattaraputi, Surat Thani Provincial Governor, Mr Ramnet Jaiglang, Koh Samui’s Lord Mayor and Mr Thanongsak Somwang, Promotion Association (to represent the people) in attendance.

The main question posed was “does 100% of waste water flow into the sea or not?”

waste waterA report showed that for the four years the septic systems in Koh Samui have been malfunctioning and rather than being contained in a system of sewerage wells, it has been seeping into bodies of water and the Tasman Lake along with waste water like thisfrom local households. During the severe flooding three years ago, all of the untreated waste was washed into the sea causing considerable damage to the aquatic environment. The main concern is that if the sewerage issue is not resolved it will start to affect tourism costing the country billions in tourist revenue every year.

It is not possible to repair the current system and ideas such as damming the area around the wells and putting in some kind of filtration system as well as biological solutions to treating the waste have been discussed. Tour operators are especially concerned about the waste management situation as damage to aquatic life could ruin what is one of the islands biggest tourist attractions.

Mr Ramnet Jaiglang, Koh Samui Lord Mayor said that the Municipality has plans to install a separate water pipe and two more waste water wells in addition to the existing three, during the next three months, in Bophut and Hua Thanon to accommodate the islands increasing demands.

Ha ! The wast water treatment plant in Chaweng opposite the police station and built for B600m Baht over six years ago HAS NEVER BEEN TURNED ON ! Fix this and we may begin believing in your "news" handouts. With governance like this no hope for Koh Samui !

It does appear to be symbolic of the extraordinary lack of respect for, and pride in the local area, that virtually ALL the leaders and politicians have, with regard to Samui. It has always been treated as the bastard island.

[ocejanic]

Yesterday, on Lamai beach, the river/lake by the beach volleyball field ( between Zara Resort and Pavilion Resort) had found a shortcut through the beach and is now running into the sea directly north of the volleyball field. I didn't notice that at first lying on the beach a bit further south infront of Pavilion Resort. However, I could see the whole stretch of coastal water was unusually brown ( yes, there were 2 days of heavy rain before), but that could as well have been just mud and silt washed into the ocean by the rain. what was really appalling and made me retreat aeay from the beach was the STENCH from the sea water. A sickening, raw sewage odour. Any sane person noticed, but there where still some moron Russian tourists frolicking in the waves ( which were quite high), getting washed over again and again. That sight and the notion of what deseases they might be contracting - aweful.