Search resumes for missing AirAsia passenger jet

[umbanda]

Facing a big storm anything can happens that will disable or destroy any airplane not given time for even a SOS......Remains will be found...answers will take some time. Very sad anyway.

[seabass69]

Could be MH370

UPDATE

Objects Spotted In Sea In Missing Plane Search

An Australian plane has spotted objects in the sea during the hunt for the missing AirAsia flight QZ8501, officials have said.

Indonesian officials said the search team had made the discovery while searching for the jet which stopped communicating with air traffic control over the Java Sea in the early hours of Sunday morning.

Earlier, the chief of Indonesia's search effort said that the missing AirAsia passenger plane "is likely at the bottom of the sea".

Bambang Soelistyo added that an initial investigation into the disappearance had revealed that the "estimated crash position is in the sea".

More than a dozen ships have been sent to the area to try to find the aircraft.

Australia, Singapore and Malaysia have deployed planes to assist in the Indonesian-led search.

The UK, France and the US have offered technology to assist in the search for debris, much of which may not be on the surface.

Search teams are currently scouring an area where the sea is 40-50 metres (130-160 feet) deep, Mr Soelistyo told journalists.

Distraught relatives spent the night in the Indonesian city of Surabaya hoping for news of loved ones.

One, who called herself Intan, called on Indonesia to ask for help from other countries, rather than try to carry out the search alone.

She said: "My hope is Indonesia seeks as much help as possible from other countries. Don't claim 'We have sophisticated technology', just ask other countries because they are better equipped.

"My prayer is I really, really hope that there will be news about the people on board. Whatever it is, what is important is we know where they are now."

Air traffic controllers lost contact with the twin-engine aircraft around an hour after it left Surabaya's Juanda international airport at about 5.35am on Sunday local time (10.35pm on Saturday, UK Time).

The flight had been on its way to Singapore.

One Briton was among the 162 on board, with the rest from Indonesia, South Korea, Singapore, Malaysia and France.

Source: http://news.sky.com/story/1399100/objects-spotted-in-sea-in-missing-plane-search

-- SKY NEWS 2014-12-29

[DoctorB]

Not sure nowadays, but in my day the cockpit crew all had personal elt's and the aircraft one was on a hook for the captain to grab. It also went off if you dropped it, or got it wet enough.

Things haven't changed much and confirms what I already said "...somewhere where only the crew has access."

I am pretty sure when the airplane is in a stall and tailspin, the last think the skipper is thinking about is getting that pesky ELT off the hook by the door.

On the thread in the PPRuNe forum, there was an early comment about a recent Airbus maintenance directive related to the AoA tubes. Are these the same as the Pitot tubes that were integral to the demise of AF447 of northern Brazil in 2009? In that instance, the tubes iced up causing the autopilot to disconnect whereupon pilot error based on wrong assumptions of plane attitude lead to the unrecoverable aerodynamic stall. There's also maybe a similar scenario of trying to recover from a stall in the thin air afforded at 38,000', the same height from which 447 plummeted to its doom.

There was a report on the BBC, unconfirmed by them, that the radar tracked progress of the plane indicated it was travelling slow enough that a mid air stall was possible. So your scenario is definitely a possibility. But as I said, the BBC were not able to confirm this report.

One could imagine that the flight crew ( 2 pilots) would have recognised an imminent stall from cockpit warning signals, and are'nt they trained to fly out of a stall, by putting the nose down, at 38000 ft surely there would have been time to carry out this proceedure.

Yes, absolutely. But as NanLaew points out, AF447 crashed because 3 highly trained Air France pilots could not correctly interpret what the Airbus flight computer was telling them. Although initially there was no actual danger, the co-pilot put the aircraft into a climb in the storm and stalled it. The computer gave them the stall warning about 50 times before it shut down. Tragically the pilots simply assumed that the system had gone haywire and never realised that they had made a fatal error. They too had plenty air space to put the nose down but were seem to have been overwhelmed by the data from the flight deck.

To their credit, Air France conceded the need to address the issue of pilot training in light of the highly automated flight control systems now currently in use.

[EyesWideOpen]

For the sake of the Malaysian airlines, sure hope the find the plane and what happened to it.

Because if they do not, no one in their right mind will ever set foot on a Malaysian plane again.

[RichinThailand]

First...I am a private pilot and a retired Fire Chief!! The airplane is down in the ocean. So you do a search. The aircraft that the USA has used for decades to patrol the west coast of America for foreign submarines can spot a periscope at considerable distance on their radar (the actual distance is classified). Small military aircraft crash in the ocean several times a year, but they seem to find all of them, and quickly. Why aren't they finding pieces of the aircraft??? If it came apart in the air or did an uncontrolled crash in the ocean then their should be pieces, and with the right equipment they should have found these pieces!!!

When they reported the first night that darkness had taken place and the search was called off for the night, I knew we might never know again what happened to another airliner. They sure aren't using the right equipment and taking it seriously enough to search 24 hours a day!!!!

Wouldn't want to ask for help....someone might play in your sandbox!!!

[Delcavom]

Unbelievable in this Day and Age , They cannot find a Jetliner of this size, it Boggles The Mind...

you obvious have not idea how big the ocean is.

You obviously have no idea how big an airplane is. Or that it has 4 tracking devices embedded within it. We have this thing called technology these days that makes the size of the ocean relatively insignificant.

[bentarm44]

First...I am a private pilot and a retired Fire Chief!! The airplane is down in the ocean. So you do a search. The aircraft that the USA has used for decades to patrol the west coast of America for foreign submarines can spot a periscope at considerable distance on their radar (the actual distance is classified). Small military aircraft crash in the ocean several times a year, but they seem to find all of them, and quickly. Why aren't they finding pieces of the aircraft??? If it came apart in the air or did an uncontrolled crash in the ocean then their should be pieces, and with the right equipment they should have found these pieces!!!

When they reported the first night that darkness had taken place and the search was called off for the night, I knew we might never know again what happened to another airliner. They sure aren't using the right equipment and taking it seriously enough to search 24 hours a day!!!!

Wouldn't want to ask for help....someone might play in your sandbox!!!

I recon you on the money there, a lot of asset management going on.

Stopping 'cas it's got dark ?? Do me a favor.

The plane traveled about as far as from Korat Town to Bangkok.

wow

[Delcavom]

Facing a big storm anything can happens that will disable or destroy any airplane not given time for even a SOS......Remains will be found...answers will take some time. Very sad anyway.

Just like MH370. Wait....maybe that is a bad example.

[Farma]

Off topic.... more aircraft problems

A Virgin Atlantic 747 flight VS43 is returning to the UK with undercarriage problems. It appears the nose leg isn't fully extended and the right main leg has not lowered. It will be performing a non standard landing procedure.

[otherstuff1957]

First...I am a private pilot and a retired Fire Chief!! The airplane is down in the ocean. So you do a search. The aircraft that the USA has used for decades to patrol the west coast of America for foreign submarines can spot a periscope at considerable distance on their radar (the actual distance is classified). Small military aircraft crash in the ocean several times a year, but they seem to find all of them, and quickly. Why aren't they finding pieces of the aircraft??? If it came apart in the air or did an uncontrolled crash in the ocean then their should be pieces, and with the right equipment they should have found these pieces!!!

When they reported the first night that darkness had taken place and the search was called off for the night, I knew we might never know again what happened to another airliner. They sure aren't using the right equipment and taking it seriously enough to search 24 hours a day!!!!

Wouldn't want to ask for help....someone might play in your sandbox!!!

When I heard that the search was suspended due to strong winds and darkness, I check the weather conditions there on a few marine weather sites. Most of them reported about 10 knots of wind. I have sailed small boats up the coast of California in winds that were consistently blowing 20-25 with gust to 35. I didn't turn around & run for harbor! Unless conditions were far worse than reported, the Indonesian Coast Guard is hopelessly incompetent.

[Alwyn]

Is this the former Geruda airline? The one that had their landing rights revoked in all countries due to abysmal safety records. Did they reinvent themselves in AirAsia?

No. Garuda is an Indonesian airline, Airasia is Malaysian

[MrWorldwide]

Is this the former Geruda airline? The one that had their landing rights revoked in all countries due to abysmal safety records. Did they reinvent themselves in AirAsia?

No. Garuda is an Indonesian airline, Airasia is Malaysian

AirAsia Internaltional owns 49% of Indonesia AirAsia, which is majority owned by an Indonesian company. As discussed earlier, neither has any direct connection to Garuda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia_AirAsia

Tony Fernandes has aggressively bought his way into several markets, including Thailand, and to his credit he has stepped forward at the press conferences - I have little doubt that this is his worst nightmare realised.

[MrWorldwide]

For the sake of the Malaysian airlines, sure hope the find the plane and what happened to it.

Because if they do not, no one in their right mind will ever set foot on a Malaysian plane again.

I doubt it. I took a Garuda flight to Bali 6 months after they crashed and burned landing at Yogya, taking the lives of 21 people. It's amazing what cheap fares will do for the average consumers thinking processes and no-one does cheap fares better than AA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda_Indonesia#Incidents_and_accidents

On 4 February 2008 the captain, Marwoto Komar, was arrested and charged with six counts of manslaughter.^[31][32] The charge carries a penalty up to life imprisonment if the court finds the crash was deliberate. Short of that finding, the lesser charge of negligent flying causing death, carries a maximum sentence of seven-years.^[33] The copilot testified that he had told the captain to go around because of excessive speed, and that he then had blacked out due to the severe buffeting.^[34]On 6 April 2009, the captain was found guilty of negligence and sentenced to 2 years in jail.^[35] The conviction was quashed by the Indonesian High Court on 29 September 2009.[

[NeverSure]

How many of you guys actually have any aircraft Pilot or Mechanic Experience ? Every time something happens involving and aircraft/airline this web-site goes crazy with "what if", be patient and allow those in charge do their job and report.

Thanks !!

That I know of:

We have two pilots with Airline Transport Ratings

Two pilots with commercial licenses. At least one is jet rated.

One member with about 12 years as a flight controller including working "Center."

I believe from the vocabulary of a couple more posters that they also are trained.

Most of the tinfoil hats on here are firmly planted on the above. The trained pilots are suspicious and have been from the beginning.

We would all, however, be delighted to hear that the plane is found.

Relax and Happy New Year.

[Stargeezr]

I feel so sorry for all the families and friends of the passengers and crew aboard this Air Asia flight. It is likely that the jet ran into some severe wind shears in the storm clouds, those tropical Cumulonimbus clouds are massive, and I sure would not want to fly into the heart of the cloud if I could avoid it. Unfortunately the pilot did not get a new clearance to either fly over the cloud or around it to avoid the extreme conditions that they must have encountered.

There is no way I would blame the flight crew aboard this flight, but with other planes in the area, the ATC controllers maybe had no other offers for a way this aircraft could fly that would make it avoid the storm. I have flown aboard Air Asia a few times, and I think it is a good low cost airline. I am not so quick to blame either the Airline or the crew, or ATC, as just like the rest of you, I do not have all the information, and facts of this tragedy. Some of the other comments from arm chair quarter backs, makes me think that some of you have a few bricks short of a full load!

Just my opinion of course. PS, I worked in the aviation industry all of my 32 year career.

Stargeezer

[Krungbin]

And soon, unfortuntely, and even before the wreckage is found, it will be "discovered" that there was not enough fuel on board to allow for a very seriously needed, "longer than expected by the rules" diversion...

[outboard]

And soon, unfortuntely, and even before the wreckage is found, it will be "discovered" that there was not enough fuel on board to allow for a very seriously needed, "longer than expected by the rules" diversion...

yes because travelling at 800kph a 100km diversion would ad aprox 3mins to the flight and everyone knows they fly everywhere with empty tanks rely on farting to power them for the last 10 mins

[MrWorldwide]

And soon, unfortuntely, and even before the wreckage is found, it will be "discovered" that there was not enough fuel on board to allow for a very seriously needed, "longer than expected by the rules" diversion...

Get a grip - aircraft are diverted all over the world and often forced to circle an airport for 20-30 minutes while the ATC sort out a traffic jam. If it's never happened to you en route to BKK, you've led a charmed life.

[Bakeman]

R.I.P.

[metisdead]

Conspiracy nonsense posts have been removed.

[Ow fan wan]

It is only the searches by air that stop in the hours of darkness, all the ships continue through the night.

It is too dangerous for the planes flying at low altitude, due to the adverse weather conditions that have probably been a major contributor to downing the flight in the first place.

[englishoak]

Indonesia is definitely either hiding something like incompetence or loath to release details as yet for some internal reason. This plane should be fairly easy to locate its a busy area shipping wise well covered by radar on a well known route with all mod cons. Not in the least why no mayday was radioed even in a stall there should be some time to call in or beacons activate on impact...

Anyone remember Indonesia refusing access to its air space or sea for search teams when MH370 went missing ?. Unsurprisingly when asked to assist the US is currently considering the request !!! why wouldnt you help if asked ? tit for tat after hampering MH370 search or something else politically ?

All very strange so far, I fully expected some major progress by today.

Edited December 29, 2014 by englishoak

[Ow fan wan]

The search and rescue teams have only had 2 days of daylight, the original search area was 240 nm square

Roughly larger than the size of Greece.( this has now been increased)

Pair this with the storms in the area,low visibility and the currents that will inevitably carry the debris then this doesn't seem such a simple task.

[englishoak]

Have to question the tracking and position systems along with the beacons on all planes, its basically saying its inept in some regions widely used as a regular commercial flight

path.

If it had ditched after 2 days youd expect to be rescued on this regular flight path no ?

Seems whatever transpires some serious questions have to be asked re tracking by radar when there's the satellite tracking option almost totally already in place.

[Ow fan wan]

Have to question the tracking and position systems along with the beacons on all planes, its basically saying its inept in some regions widely used as a regular commercial flight

path.

If it had ditched after 2 days youd expect to be rescued on this regular flight path no ?

Seems whatever transpires some serious questions have to be asked re tracking by radar when there's the satellite tracking option almost totally already in place.

It took 4 days to find first debris on the surface after AF crash and they knew the exact point of impact on that one, then a further 2 years to find the remains of the plane on the sea bed.

Agreed its high time data streaming technology was mandatory for the airlines to have installed, black box recorders are well past their sell by date, technology is readily available, it's purely down to cost which is shocking bearing in mind the enormous cost to carry out the search and rescue ops.

Clearly Pilot training in Asia needs looking at too to prevent it happening in first place, rather than focusing purely on finding the debris field and bodies easier.

[Ow fan wan]

Smoke spotted on an island within the search zone is latest rumour on CNN

[krisb]

Have to question the tracking and position systems along with the beacons on all planes, its basically saying its inept in some regions widely used as a regular commercial flight

path.

If it had ditched after 2 days youd expect to be rescued on this regular flight path no ?

Seems whatever transpires some serious questions have to be asked re tracking by radar when there's the satellite tracking option almost totally already in place.

It took 4 days to find first debris on the surface after AF crash and they knew the exact point of impact on that one, then a further 2 years to find the remains of the plane on the sea bed.

Agreed its high time data streaming technology was mandatory for the airlines to have installed, black box recorders are well past their sell by date, technology is readily available, it's purely down to cost which is shocking bearing in mind the enormous cost to carry out the search and rescue ops.

Clearly Pilot training in Asia needs looking at too to prevent it happening in first place, rather than focusing purely on finding the debris field and bodies easier.

Plenty of Asian pilots are trained around the world by the best schools.

It can't be called an Asian pilot training issue. Especially this pilot had over 20 thousand hours inc F16's.

I would think if he couldn't fix the issue, not many pilots could.

[Strangebrew]

I might not be fond of people who are Muslims but this isn't about religion this is about there loved ones missing on that flight Indonesia should ask the US to aid in search The 7th Fleet is in the area more eyes looking better chance to find plane.

[jpinx]

Has anyone seen a the radar recording yet? A plane does not just vanish off radar. It might stop responding to radio, transponder, etc, but radar requires no response other than the passive reflection of it's own signal, so even if it broke up there'd be a radar return from the bits as they fell.

[Ow fan wan]

Have to question the tracking and position systems along with the beacons on all planes, its basically saying its inept in some regions widely used as a regular commercial flight

path.

If it had ditched after 2 days youd expect to be rescued on this regular flight path no ?

Seems whatever transpires some serious questions have to be asked re tracking by radar when there's the satellite tracking option almost totally already in place.

It took 4 days to find first debris on the surface after AF crash and they knew the exact point of impact on that one, then a further 2 years to find the remains of the plane on the sea bed.

Agreed its high time data streaming technology was mandatory for the airlines to have installed, black box recorders are well past their sell by date, technology is readily available, it's purely down to cost which is shocking bearing in mind the enormous cost to carry out the search and rescue ops.

Clearly Pilot training in Asia needs looking at too to prevent it happening in first place, rather than focusing purely on finding the debris field and bodies easier.

Plenty of Asian pilots are trained around the world by the best schools.

It can't be called an Asian pilot training issue. Especially this pilot had over 20 thousand hours inc F16's.

I would think if he couldn't fix the issue, not many pilots could.

Apologies, meant training levels provided by Asian airlines appears to need looking at.

These planes are made to withstand the weather conditions faced over the equator, and historically it's very rare weather conditions alone will bring a plane down so don't think we can rule out if, how this particular pilot reacted when faced with the storm contributed to the crash or not.

Why he requsted to lift to 38000 ft when the radar showed the storm cloud to be higher than 50000 ft meaning he would not clear it also seems strange. This lift would have reduced air speed and could contribute to stalling.

All speculation of course until evidence is found!