Technology, does it make much difference?

[AllanB]

From another thread I found out about a guy called Ed March, who rides an old C90 around the world, watch many of his videos...a man very much after my own heart, I wish I were forty years younger.

Now his old bike was not exactly in tip tip condition before he started, compared with the brand new high tech BMW's ridden by the famous Jock and Limey and the KTM's ridden by the other guys... I forget their names..yawn! But all these brand new, professionally prepared high tech bikes still had problems and in some cases, recovery and train shipment, so the 25 year old £150 crapper beat all these high tech machines hands down.

Ask anyone (with a brain) what is the best bike on the road? the answer will be the Honda Wave, a 50 year old bike, with a minor mod a few years ago, adding fuel injection, which really made no difference at all. I had a 100 and now have a 110pi, so I know, same same. In fact fuel injection is older than the Wave/Cub anyway, German WW2 planes had it for the late 30's.

There are bikes and cars 50, even a 100 years old than are still running, the electronics on my Isuzu truck failed after 3 years. Couple that with the fact that you can't work on new vehicles without a laptop and impaired by the total lack of space, well I am convinced "technology" is at best overrated. Sorry boy's IMO you are being hoodwinked.

Now some of you will know it took me a while (cough) to fix my 31 year old NV400, but that was down to me, a proper bike mechanic fixed the fault in minutes. Plus the fault turned out to be "electronic"......I rest my case.

Please keep your replies objective boys.

[andrewrooney]

I'm still somewhat of a newbie to bikes compared to many on this forum, but I'll throw my two cents in I guess. The same argument applies to cars also, which I have a little more experience with.

A newer, more technologically advanced vehicle will be more hassle-free most of the time. Much less dicking around with carbs etc., just start it and it runs. Plus there are certain technological advancements that have obvious safety benefits such as ABS.

The downside is when something does go wrong, it's much harder to fix yourself. Some problems can require computers or other specialized equipment to fix, leaving you at the mercy of a mechanic.

So, good and bad to it. Another issue here in Thailand is that with Benzene being fazed out a lot of the older bikes are having more problems as they aren't designed to run on Gasohol. This isn't the fault of the bikes, really, but it is a consideration for anyone living and riding here.

[Shurup]

"The best bike on the road"? Best in terms of what? Best for whom? There's no one answer that will satisfy every rider as everyone has their own criteria.

[lust]

Emissions, suspension, light weight alloys, beauty, fuel injection, HID headlights, massive brakes, more power, more reliable, part accessibility, status, no loose wiring, no dirty carbs, no gremlins in the wiring, no unknown history, performance mods...

The list goes on.. However, I prefer 90's japanese bikes and cars compared to today's shit boxes.

[AllanB]

Emissions, suspension, light weight alloys, beauty, fuel injection, HID headlights, massive brakes, more power, more reliable, part accessibility, status, no loose wiring, no dirty carbs, no gremlins in the wiring, no unknown history, performance mods...

The list goes on.. However, I prefer 90's japanese bikes and cars compared to today's shit boxes.

Emissions, well perhaps, but newer bikes tend to be thirstier as a result, so that is a backward step there too, lean burn engines were IMO the best innovation with virtually no downside. Plus of course unleaded fuel, which was originally added by some pillock back in the 20's, who had no idea what he was doing and everyone went along with it for 50 years. Interesting story that.

http://www.psychedelicporcupine.co.uk/2010/05/thomas-midgley-jr-the-worlds-most-destructive-man/

Suspension, well, that depends on how far you go back and whether you call it "technology" as such, my 31 year old NV is as good as anything modern I have ridden. Standard coil over shocks and forks full of oil and springs.

Alloys, how far do you want to go back, 50 years?

Beauty...no Effin' way, that's why people are buying retro bikes, all this Jap crap looks like a CBR250. Same same same same.

Fuel injection is 70 years old.

HID lights, yes I would agree, old incandescent bulbs were crap, 6v completely and utterly useless.

Big brakes, hardly technology though and discs have been around a long time, 60 years?

Power, yes of course, for standard bike, but the Cafe boys did a pretty good job with a hacksaw, emery paper and an old lathe.

Reliability, well Jap bikes have always been reliable, so I can't allow that.

Parts availability, well you need a lot of parts, with modern bikes, can't fix a shot big-end bearing the the silver paper out of a fag packet nowadays.

No dirty carbs, but fuel systems, injectors, still get blocked, fuel pumps too with dirty fuel, carbs are a little more forgiving.

Wiring, I think that is just an aging issue, when today's new bikes get old the same will probably be true. That said modern connectors do seem to be better, as with my NV, but that is 31 years old, so no not exactly technology, just improved. Remember that British bikes were buggad by two companies.."Smiths" and "Lucas", who seemed to have stranglehold there.

So I remain unconvinced.

Edited December 30, 2014 by AllanB

[lust]

How are you unconvinced? You seem like the kind of person that would rather shoot film rather than digital. Correct?

[Gweiloman]

Why not just ride a bicycle? Or even better, just walk?

[BSJ]

I am guessing your stuck at home and looking for something to do...and this thread is it!

[RubberSideDown]

I found the perfect Luddite bike:

[ll2]

I found the perfect Luddite bike:

Nice headlight!

[AllanB]

Ed March makes a very good case for rejecting new technologies in favour of low cost simplicity and I think he has a point.

[dave_boo]

Emissions, suspension, light weight alloys, beauty, fuel injection, HID headlights, massive brakes, more power, more reliable, part accessibility, status, no loose wiring, no dirty carbs, no gremlins in the wiring, no unknown history, performance mods...

The list goes on.. However, I prefer 90's japanese bikes and cars compared to today's shit boxes.

Emissions, well perhaps, but newer bikes tend to be thirstier as a result, so that is a backward step there too, lean burn engines were IMO the best innovation with virtually no downside. Plus of course unleaded fuel, which was originally added by some pillock back in the 20's, who had no idea what he was doing and everyone went along with it for 50 years. Interesting story that.

http://www.psychedelicporcupine.co.uk/2010/05/thomas-midgley-jr-the-worlds-most-destructive-man/

Suspension, well, that depends on how far you go back and whether you call it "technology" as such, my 31 year old NV is as good as anything modern I have ridden. Standard coil over shocks and forks full of oil and springs.

Alloys, how far do you want to go back, 50 years?

Beauty...no Effin' way, that's why people are buying retro bikes, all this Jap crap looks like a CBR250. Same same same same.

Fuel injection is 70 years old.

HID lights, yes I would agree, old incandescent bulbs were crap, 6v completely and utterly useless.

Big brakes, hardly technology though and discs have been around a long time, 60 years?

Power, yes of course, for standard bike, but the Cafe boys did a pretty good job with a hacksaw, emery paper and an old lathe.

Reliability, well Jap bikes have always been reliable, so I can't allow that.

Parts availability, well you need a lot of parts, with modern bikes, can't fix a shot big-end bearing the the silver paper out of a fag packet nowadays.

No dirty carbs, but fuel systems, injectors, still get blocked, fuel pumps too with dirty fuel, carbs are a little more forgiving.

Wiring, I think that is just an aging issue, when today's new bikes get old the same will probably be true. That said modern connectors do seem to be better, as with my NV, but that is 31 years old, so no not exactly technology, just improved. Remember that British bikes were buggad by two companies.."Smiths" and "Lucas", who seemed to have stranglehold there.

So I remain unconvinced.

You're of course wrong....but at least you're a rider and I will support your right to have an (incorrect) opinion.

Everyone should ride what they wish and enjoy these little sniping conversations that come up now and again. It's been too long since we've had a good Harley vs. sports bikes argument.

[MaiChai]

We take for granted all the technology that makes our lives easier and more enjoyable. Here is an example: i am writing this on my smartphone, sitting in bed, on 3g because its not worth getting broadband. The mere fact that you are using the TV forum to post your thread and voice your opinion means that technology does matter. You are taking it for granted. How would you voice your opinion without the technology? Regarding vechicals technology matters because it gives you reliable, fuel efficient, clean motoring/biking? Unless you want to go back to the 1920s and go through all the steps required to start a car? Or regarding bikes, early bikes were horribly unreliable! My first pickup had an injection pump, my second one used common rail technology; i think you know which one i prefer?

[AllanB]

We take for granted all the technology that makes our lives easier and more enjoyable. Here is an example: i am writing this on my smartphone, sitting in bed, on 3g because its not worth getting broadband. The mere fact that you are using the TV forum to post your thread and voice your opinion means that technology does matter. You are taking it for granted. How would you voice your opinion without the technology? Regarding vechicals technology matters because it gives you reliable, fuel efficient, clean motoring/biking? Unless you want to go back to the 1920s and go through all the steps required to start a car? Or regarding bikes, early bikes were horribly unreliable! My first pickup had an injection pump, my second one used common rail technology; i think you know which one i prefer?

First of all Dave-Boo, you say I am wrong, but you are not specific, so the debate is impossible.

You say smartphones improve our lives, yet I would sit in a restaurant/cafe a few years ago and everyone would be talking and enjoying everyone's company, able to see laughter and other facial expressions, now everyone in staring at and playing with their phones. They are ignoring the people they are out with and may as well be at home on their own, sitting on their beds. Is that really a life improvement, seems pretty sad to me, that the new going out is staying in, or the other way around.

Yes, I now have the internet and am able to converse with people I would otherwise never see, but I was referring to bikes and bike related stuff. Years ago guys used to meet up (Ace Cafe and others) and that seemed pretty good fun. Mods and Rockers, gangs riding to the coast, most weekends, etc., seems technology takes as well as gives.

Many of you talk about unreliability, but I think that is exaggerated, with probably other causes, like lack of money. My mates had older bikes would bodge things up because they couldn't afford pukka spares. I know I did with my Minis, brake cylinder rubbers were cheaper than new cylinders, but didn't last, or didn't work. My mate had an Ariel Arrow, a very cheap bike with a lot of issues and most of those caused by the previous owner, who also had no money. Example, he couldn't afford a proper crimping tool to sort out the electrics, but PVC tape was cheap.

Most of the people I know who had new bikes would ride them to work every day and were never late as a result of mechanical breakdowns.

The other thing back in the old days is that guys would do their own mods and tuning, some not that successful, they didn't go down and buy tried and tested tuning spares and merely bolt the damn things on. Cafe Racers were innovators, mostly amateur and so mistakes were made causing breakdowns and additional oil leaks.

Maybe "rose tinted glasses" is the phrase here, but things seemed more fun then and people used to ride and meet a lot more....and perhaps more importantly, were younger.

If Ed March can go around the world on a low tech bike, "technology" is at the very least overrated, it seems that all this new stuff does is sells new products.

[seedy]

, but things seemed more fun then

I would say that this reflects your outlook on life more than the state of the world.

[dave_boo]

We take for granted all the technology that makes our lives easier and more enjoyable. Here is an example: i am writing this on my smartphone, sitting in bed, on 3g because its not worth getting broadband. The mere fact that you are using the TV forum to post your thread and voice your opinion means that technology does matter. You are taking it for granted. How would you voice your opinion without the technology? Regarding vechicals technology matters because it gives you reliable, fuel efficient, clean motoring/biking? Unless you want to go back to the 1920s and go through all the steps required to start a car? Or regarding bikes, early bikes were horribly unreliable! My first pickup had an injection pump, my second one used common rail technology; i think you know which one i prefer?

First of all Dave-Boo, you say I am wrong, but you are not specific, so the debate is impossible.

You say smartphones improve our lives, yet I would sit in a restaurant/cafe a few years ago and everyone would be talking and enjoying everyone's company, able to see laughter and other facial expressions, now everyone in staring at and playing with their phones. They are ignoring the people they are out with and may as well be at home on their own, sitting on their beds. Is that really a life improvement, seems pretty sad to me, that the new going out is staying in, or the other way around.

Yes, I now have the internet and am able to converse with people I would otherwise never see, but I was referring to bikes and bike related stuff. Years ago guys used to meet up (Ace Cafe and others) and that seemed pretty good fun. Mods and Rockers, gangs riding to the coast, most weekends, etc., seems technology takes as well as gives.

Many of you talk about unreliability, but I think that is exaggerated, with probably other causes, like lack of money. My mates had older bikes would bodge things up because they couldn't afford pukka spares. I know I did with my Minis, brake cylinder rubbers were cheaper than new cylinders, but didn't last, or didn't work. My mate had an Ariel Arrow, a very cheap bike with a lot of issues and most of those caused by the previous owner, who also had no money. Example, he couldn't afford a proper crimping tool to sort out the electrics, but PVC tape was cheap.

Most of the people I know who had new bikes would ride them to work every day and were never late as a result of mechanical breakdowns.

The other thing back in the old days is that guys would do their own mods and tuning, some not that successful, they didn't go down and buy tried and tested tuning spares and merely bolt the damn things on. Cafe Racers were innovators, mostly amateur and so mistakes were made causing breakdowns and additional oil leaks.

Maybe "rose tinted glasses" is the phrase here, but things seemed more fun then and people used to ride and meet a lot more....and perhaps more importantly, were younger.

If Ed March can go around the world on a low tech bike, "technology" is at the very least overrated, it seems that all this new stuff does is sells new products.

You're set with your opinion and I with mine; I could go 12 rounds with you about it, but what good would it do? People like you keep old bikes on the road. Not necessarily for the right opinion, per what I believe, but still a noble endeavour.

I also agree with you about the cellphones! It's ok to be seated, order and then do a last check on whatever until the food arrives. Maybe take a picture of what you're eating if you think it's 'wow' enough, but then put them away.

I think that your listing the need for spare parts and other things kinda validates what the others are saying that the bikes weren't reliable. As a side point, other than consumables (oil, lights, and tyres), I've had to have my Ninjette's FI system rebuilt and the Airblade's carb replaced. That's 3 'big' bikes and at least 7 scooters (lost count) purchased since 2005.

[MaiChai]

Lets go back to a world without drugs. How many people would die? We take it all for granted. Life is so easy in the modern world, even out in the sticks in Issan!

[smedly]

I'll pick up on one of your examples - Fuel Injection

you say injection has been around for x amount of years which might be true but bears absolutely no resemblance to a modern injection system, as for comparing it to a carb, I could list many reasons why it is like night and day, here are a couple - reliability - economy - efficiency - simplicity, go back to 30 years ago on those cold winter mornings when that engine just would not start, 30 40 50 60mpg was unheard of..............are carbs even fitted anymore to anything

Same goes for ignition - points and distributor - another source of endless reliability issues ........give me a break

[2fishin2]

This argument is as old as the hills....

[AllanB]

I'll pick up on one of your examples - Fuel Injection

you say injection has been around for x amount of years which might be true but bears absolutely no resemblance to a modern injection system, as for comparing it to a carb, I could list many reasons why it is like night and day, here are a couple - reliability - economy - efficiency - simplicity, go back to 30 years ago on those cold winter mornings when that engine just would not start, 30 40 50 60mpg was unheard of..............are carbs even fitted anymore to anything

Same goes for ignition - points and distributor - another source of endless reliability issues ........give me a break

This is complete nonsense.

Fuel injection works in exactly the same way, except the mechanical timing is done using electronics, Bosche fuel injection was ultra reliable, arguably more reliable than today. Perhaps slightly less accurate, yes and certainly shouldn't be confused other makes like CAV, but these systems outlasted the engines.

In all my years owning cars with carbs, my cars always started even, or should I say especially, when I lived in Scandinavia, it is just a question of care, even nowadays. Most starting problems then were usually associated with the ingress of dampness, so a simple seal was in order.

As to fuel consumption if anything things have got worse, with all the BS emission crap they put on, my sports car would do 40mpg at 80mph and 35mph at 100mph, so I am sure bikes were better too. I think some of you guys have been reading the BS so long you can't remember, or if you weren't around 30 years ago you have been misinformed.

What I am saying is that the technology part makes very little difference but sells product through buzzword pickup, the real improvements over the years have come from better build quality, due to increased competition demands. Jap bikes took the market from the Brits, by simply improving the product. They stopped oil leaks by using many more fasteners and more accurate castings, they built to slightly better tolerances and kept the improvements coming....and had a cooperative and hungry workforce. Nothing at all to do with technology.

The reason some of you think old is worse is because old bikes are old. When your new CBR is 30 years old we shall see whether it still runs the same.

Edited January 4, 2015 by AllanB

[seedy]

Old is not worse.

It is just old.

Like my WL.

Now THIS is worse ...

Edited January 4, 2015 by seedy

[2fishin2]

If we followed some of you guys ideas, we'd still be wearing loin cloths and for sure we wouldnt be having this conversation because technology would have never been born to allow humans to have engines or even fire for that matter.....funny bunch some of you guys.

[papa al]

Old is not worse.

It is just old.

Like my WL.

Now THIS is worse ...

Yes, that pink color is pretty bad.

[jackcorbett]

Emissions, suspension, light weight alloys, beauty, fuel injection, HID headlights, massive brakes, more power, more reliable, part accessibility, status, no loose wiring, no dirty carbs, no gremlins in the wiring, no unknown history, performance mods...

The list goes on.. However, I prefer 90's japanese bikes and cars compared to today's shit boxes.

Emissions, well perhaps, but newer bikes tend to be thirstier as a result, so that is a backward step there too, lean burn engines were IMO the best innovation with virtually no downside. Plus of course unleaded fuel, which was originally added by some pillock back in the 20's, who had no idea what he was doing and everyone went along with it for 50 years. Interesting story that.

http://www.psychedelicporcupine.co.uk/2010/05/thomas-midgley-jr-the-worlds-most-destructive-man/

Suspension, well, that depends on how far you go back and whether you call it "technology" as such, my 31 year old NV is as good as anything modern I have ridden. Standard coil over shocks and forks full of oil and springs.

Alloys, how far do you want to go back, 50 years?

Beauty...no Effin' way, that's why people are buying retro bikes, all this Jap crap looks like a CBR250. Same same same same.

Fuel injection is 70 years old.

HID lights, yes I would agree, old incandescent bulbs were crap, 6v completely and utterly useless.

Big brakes, hardly technology though and discs have been around a long time, 60 years?

Power, yes of course, for standard bike, but the Cafe boys did a pretty good job with a hacksaw, emery paper and an old lathe.

Reliability, well Jap bikes have always been reliable, so I can't allow that.

Parts availability, well you need a lot of parts, with modern bikes, can't fix a shot big-end bearing the the silver paper out of a fag packet nowadays.

No dirty carbs, but fuel systems, injectors, still get blocked, fuel pumps too with dirty fuel, carbs are a little more forgiving.

Wiring, I think that is just an aging issue, when today's new bikes get old the same will probably be true. That said modern connectors do seem to be better, as with my NV, but that is 31 years old, so no not exactly technology, just improved. Remember that British bikes were buggad by two companies.."Smiths" and "Lucas", who seemed to have stranglehold there.

So I remain unconvinced.

[jackcorbett]

Emissions, suspension, light weight alloys, beauty, fuel injection, HID headlights, massive brakes, more power, more reliable, part accessibility, status, no loose wiring, no dirty carbs, no gremlins in the wiring, no unknown history, performance mods...

The list goes on.. However, I prefer 90's japanese bikes and cars compared to today's shit boxes.

Emissions, well perhaps, but newer bikes tend to be thirstier as a result, so that is a backward step there too, lean burn engines were IMO the best innovation with virtually no downside. Plus of course unleaded fuel, which was originally added by some pillock back in the 20's, who had no idea what he was doing and everyone went along with it for 50 years. Interesting story that.

http://www.psychedelicporcupine.co.uk/2010/05/thomas-midgley-jr-the-worlds-most-destructive-man/

Suspension, well, that depends on how far you go back and whether you call it "technology" as such, my 31 year old NV is as good as anything modern I have ridden. Standard coil over shocks and forks full of oil and springs.

Alloys, how far do you want to go back, 50 years?

Beauty...no Effin' way, that's why people are buying retro bikes, all this Jap crap looks like a CBR250. Same same same same.

Fuel injection is 70 years old.

HID lights, yes I would agree, old incandescent bulbs were crap, 6v completely and utterly useless.

Big brakes, hardly technology though and discs have been around a long time, 60 years?

Power, yes of course, for standard bike, but the Cafe boys did a pretty good job with a hacksaw, emery paper and an old lathe.

Reliability, well Jap bikes have always been reliable, so I can't allow that.

Parts availability, well you need a lot of parts, with modern bikes, can't fix a shot big-end bearing the the silver paper out of a fag packet nowadays.

No dirty carbs, but fuel systems, injectors, still get blocked, fuel pumps too with dirty fuel, carbs are a little more forgiving.

Wiring, I think that is just an aging issue, when today's new bikes get old the same will probably be true. That said modern connectors do seem to be better, as with my NV, but that is 31 years old, so no not exactly technology, just improved. Remember that British bikes were buggad by two companies.."Smiths" and "Lucas", who seemed to have stranglehold there.

So I remain unconvinced.

[AllanB]

If we followed some of you guys ideas, we'd still be wearing loin cloths and for sure we wouldnt be having this conversation because technology would have never been born to allow humans to have engines or even fire for that matter.....funny bunch some of you guys.

I absolutely welcome innovation, I have mentioned some on this thread, it is the BS I don't like and modern business thrives on it, including the bike industry. You guys are a marketing man's wet dream.

[smedly]

Emissions, suspension, light weight alloys, beauty, fuel injection, HID headlights, massive brakes, more power, more reliable, part accessibility, status, no loose wiring, no dirty carbs, no gremlins in the wiring, no unknown history, performance mods...

The list goes on.. However, I prefer 90's japanese bikes and cars compared to today's shit boxes.

Emissions, well perhaps, but newer bikes tend to be thirstier as a result, so that is a backward step there too, lean burn engines were IMO the best innovation with virtually no downside. Plus of course unleaded fuel, which was originally added by some pillock back in the 20's, who had no idea what he was doing and everyone went along with it for 50 years. Interesting story that.

http://www.psychedelicporcupine.co.uk/2010/05/thomas-midgley-jr-the-worlds-most-destructive-man/

Suspension, well, that depends on how far you go back and whether you call it "technology" as such, my 31 year old NV is as good as anything modern I have ridden. Standard coil over shocks and forks full of oil and springs.

Alloys, how far do you want to go back, 50 years?

Beauty...no Effin' way, that's why people are buying retro bikes, all this Jap crap looks like a CBR250. Same same same same.

Fuel injection is 70 years old.

HID lights, yes I would agree, old incandescent bulbs were crap, 6v completely and utterly useless.

Big brakes, hardly technology though and discs have been around a long time, 60 years?

Power, yes of course, for standard bike, but the Cafe boys did a pretty good job with a hacksaw, emery paper and an old lathe.

Reliability, well Jap bikes have always been reliable, so I can't allow that.

Parts availability, well you need a lot of parts, with modern bikes, can't fix a shot big-end bearing the the silver paper out of a fag packet nowadays.

No dirty carbs, but fuel systems, injectors, still get blocked, fuel pumps too with dirty fuel, carbs are a little more forgiving.

Wiring, I think that is just an aging issue, when today's new bikes get old the same will probably be true. That said modern connectors do seem to be better, as with my NV, but that is 31 years old, so no not exactly technology, just improved. Remember that British bikes were buggad by two companies.."Smiths" and "Lucas", who seemed to have stranglehold there.

So I remain unconvinced.

saying that something has been around for 50 60 years adds nothing to your argument, the wright brothers had wings on their first flight does that mean it must be similar to an F35

name me one production bike or car for that matter that had disc brakes 50 60 years ago

your argument is borderline trolling it's so ridiculous - it's like saying the wheels on a Model T were round so it's just as good as a bugatti Veyron

the technology involved in modern vehicles including production is so far removed from 50 60 70 years ago it is quite honestly stupidity to even contemplate a similarity

Edited January 5, 2015 by smedly

[dave_boo]

If we followed some of you guys ideas, we'd still be wearing loin cloths and for sure we wouldnt be having this conversation because technology would have never been born to allow humans to have engines or even fire for that matter.....funny bunch some of you guys.

I absolutely welcome innovation, I have mentioned some on this thread, it is the BS I don't like and modern business thrives on it, including the bike industry. You guys are a marketing man's wet dream.

Without people funding development by purchasing new products there would be no innovation.

[seedy]

I ride a WL. Some marketing guy from the 1940's never sold it to me.

My BSA would die if I rode beside a puddle.

Like the old joke ...

"Why do the British drink warm beer ?

Because they have Lucas refrigerators "